I haven't played a psionic character yet, but I love the power point system.
I really wish Dreamscarred Press would do a conversion of the core and base classes (cleric, sorcerer, wizard, et cetera) from vancian spells per day to power points. A complete update of the CRB spells, as well as those in the Advanced Player's Guide, would be the absolute best product I could hope for.
In ultimate psionics, each base class had a psionic version introduced.
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The psionic classes have names that don't mean anything outside of the context of the game: "psion," "soulknife," "vitalist," etc. If I referred to a non-gamer about a "wizard" they'd know what I was talking about. If I mentioned a "soulknife..." well, not so much. Heck, even the term "psionics" has far more traction within the role-playing gaming world than as a general term.Better names for the classes, with ties to what the names actually mean in a literary, mythological, or socio-historical context would greatly increase my desire to use them. Terms like "telepath," or "seer," or "spiritualist," or "fakir," or even just "psychic" have meaning outside the context of the game.
That's weird. This is quite literally the first time I've heard this complaint about the system.
In fact, we are constantly told to ignore what the class is called and focus on what your character does and call him whatever you want. (For example: I've seen a ranger/shadow sorcerer/arcane trickster that called himself a ninja.)
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Psionics are faster to "come into their own" than magic or mundane fighting. Around Level 9 or so you have Psion (Nomad) teleporting all over the place, the Psychic Warrior with a buffable Inertial Armor or Force Screen in the mid-to-high 20s, and the Psion (Shaper) making Large astral constructs on the battlefield. Every psion/wilder can get Energy Wall at Level 5, which is ugly to enemies if your Psion (Kineticist) does it with a different energy type each round. Energy Wall is the definition of "battlefield control" as you make a Tron-like Cycle Wall for enemies to go through. Wizards and Sorcerers may have Teleport, Lighting Bolt, Fireball, etc, but they are limited to a few slots a day, not using the same power over and over again until you run out of points. The Fighter is still dreaming about his or her +5 longsword while the Psion does 9D6 damage with an Energy Ray.
But it is Psychic Reformation that makes psionics uber. Make a mistake in assigning your skill points while you leveled? Have favored enemies at Level 1 that are gone by Level 6 in the Adventure Path, never to be seen again? Got a Headband of Vast Intelligence to buff a skill, so you don't need to put so many skill points into that skill? Wish you could swap out a feat you chose at lower level? Or even a power that is now less than optimal? Use Psychic Reformation and a day or two to recover, and you can optimize your psionic character like never before. Swap out crafting feats as needed. Get rid of Energy Adaptation, Specified now that you have the real Energy Adaptation. Etc. And you can use the power on others.
Soulknives are also perfect to use to walk into the anti-magic field with the boss creature and still get their weapons of choice with a concentration check. Or when your team is roleplaying at the king's ball and all your mundane weapons have been confiscated by the guards.
The one glaring Achilles Heel to the psion(s), and I've mentioned this on Dreamscarred Press' board, is the lack of an equivalent to Silence. The one most important spell in the D&D or Pathfinder game to stop the wizard from spellcasting, stop anybody in the corridor outside from hearing your curb-stomp inside, or stopping nasty monsters TPK'ing the party with sonic-based effects. Control Sound doesn't come close. There are Energy Adaptations to sonic effects, but no psionic Silence.
I'm just not running into the same issues as you then. Most of the really powerful spells I put on a sorcerer just don't exist for psionics. (especially battlefield control spells. Energy wall is like wall of fire, which I see normally ranked as bad)
The lack of hard negation to psionics is balanced out by the same lack of complete negation from their end. You mention that there is no silence equivalent, but there is also no invisibility, greater invisibility or mirror image equivalent.
I really like psychic reformation because it comes online at the level that I normally see players kill off their characters because of build mistakes. The utility of psionics is just not equal to normal spellcasting so shifting around things on your own charcter just makes you an arcanist while at the same time extending that ability to the rest of the party like the Fighter. IMHO it's not a bad thing. I don't need to stop the adventure to allow for retraining and I can avoid having to write in new characters or justify why the quest-givers even know who the party is evenmore after all the personnel changes.
Does it use power points or is it more akin to 3.5's spell points?
Edit: After reading a bit of endzeitgeist's review, it seems the product is derived from spell points (as opposed to the psionic power point system). Close, but not quite what I'm after. Thanks for the link, though.
I haven't played a psionic character yet, but I love the power point system.
I really wish Dreamscarred Press would do a conversion of the core and base classes (cleric, sorcerer, wizard, et cetera) from vancian spells per day to power points. A complete update of the CRB spells, as well as those in the Advanced Player's Guide, would be the absolute best product I could hope for.
I have heard that DSP has a very close working relationship with Paizo. I doubt they would want to ruin that by making an obviously directly competing replacement for the core material.
However, I'm sure I remember reading that someone over in the homebrew section did this for all the spells (at least all the ones that were out at that time). I can't seem to find it now. But if you ask around over there, someone might be able to point you to a link.
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The psionic classes have names that don't mean anything outside of the context of the game: "psion," "soulknife," "vitalist," etc. If I referred to a non-gamer about a "wizard" they'd know what I was talking about. If I mentioned a "soulknife..." well, not so much. Heck, even the term "psionics" has far more traction within the role-playing gaming world than as a general term.Better names for the classes, with ties to what the names actually mean in a literary, mythological, or socio-historical context would greatly increase my desire to use them. Terms like "telepath," or "seer," or "spiritualist," or "fakir," or even just "psychic" have meaning outside the context of the game.
That's weird. This is quite literally the first time I've heard this complaint about the system.
In fact, we are constantly told to ignore what the class is called and focus on what your character does and call him whatever you want. (For example: I've seen a ranger/shadow sorcerer/arcane trickster that called himself a ninja.)
I completely agree. [Insert obligatory flavor is mutable comment.]
In fantasy, I see many characters that operate as the psionic classes do. Separate the class name and concentrate on the character's self view or role. A shaper calls himself a summoner or an astral adept. A telepath calls himself a mentalist or a guru. A nomad calls himself a traveler or ranger or... possibly a gypsy. A wilder calls himself... whatever he wants to. A soulknife is a fighter with a magic blade. A psychic warrior is... a fighter who might make his blade magic. A marksman is an archer or a gunslinger or a crossbowman. A vitalist is a witch or healer or... even a vampire.
I started stating up an elan vitalist with the soul thief method and the deeper in creation I got, the more I realized I had a playable vampire with a small coterie of followers (who probably didn't realize they were). :)
And psychic reformation? Yeah. As a DM I always had a "sage" tucked somewhere in game that could cast that for the party should they be having issues with their character choices. That holds for 3.5 and Pathfinder in my games. It makes the retraining go so much easier.
I have heard that DSP has a very close working relationship with Paizo. I doubt they would want to ruin that by making an obviously directly competing replacement for the core material.
I don't think Paizo would lose any customers. Many (if not most) Pathfinder players would disregard it as just another 3rd-party supplement. Besides, Paizo released it's own alternate system (words of power); a power point variant would act as just another option for those of us that prefer a non-vancian take on magic.
I have heard that DSP has a very close working relationship with Paizo. I doubt they would want to ruin that by making an obviously directly competing replacement for the core material.I don't think Paizo would lose any customers. Many (if not most) Pathfinder players would disregard it as just another 3rd-party supplement. Besides, Paizo released it's own alternate system (words of power); a power point variant would act as just another option for those of us that prefer a non-vancian take on magic.
The only problem I see with making a power-point variant is that spells are not balanced around that idea. Spells tend to be stronger than psionics simply because you have less max slots per day than a psion can effectively have. So to implement a power point system for spells also requires re-balancing the spells themselves.
At which point you just end up with something very similar to DSP psionics with a different flavor. It makes more sense to just follow DSP suggestion for reflavoring psionics as rune magic than rewriting a system to end up more less just like the one they already have.
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The real trick is that DSP focuses on maximizing their readership by supporting subsystems that Paizo has indicated they don't have any interest in or current plans for; as great as the DSP materials are, they don't want to go head to head with Paizo.
That being said, a point based spellcasting system is probably something that DSP would consider, but it would be a lot of work and they'd probably need to bring on an outside designer willing to take the time to spearhead the project. And they'd need to be convinced that this would be something that isn't already adequately supported by reflavoring psionics. Jeremy or Andreas would have a better idea on what, if any, plans or interest they might have regarding a project like that.
** The views and opinions expressed herein are those of the poster only and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Dreamscarred Press**
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To me tracking HP isn't really trivial. Not all that great at math, so having more math isn't something I like. That's why I prefer vancian. For me, it's just a tally mark. A lot easier than adding and subtracting, as well as the changing values when you change spells.
Y'know - and I am absolutely not in any way saying you are wrong - doing exactly this kind of stuff is how you GET "good at math".
See, there's math, and then there's mathematics. Most people don't actually need to know how to do most algebra, geometry, or calculus. You're taught that in school as a fundamental exposure for higher education, not necessarily real life. But that stuff is mathematics.
Math is useful daily. Addition, subtraction, the basics. Pathfinder can teach you that there are fast ways and slow ways to do math, and when you learn the fast ways, suddenly it's actually easy.
For instance, school teaches you to add numbers by making columns and "blah blah carry the one". Sure. Only a lot of the time you can do it faster. For instance, "clumping".
When you roll a bunch of d6s for a fireball, you can do it the hard way, by simply adding up all the numbers one die at a time, or you can do it the easy way. Find a 4 and find a 6, and you've got 10. Find two 5s and you've got 10. Out of 6s to pair with 4s? Use two 3s because those are 6 again. In seconds, starting with the higher numbers and working down, you can take any pile of d6s and bring them to a few stacks of 10. Hey. Look. You've got five stacks, plus... 3 left over. 53.
This kind of math you learn to get efficient at very quickly when you DM, or run a complicated character.
All I'm saying is that this doesn't have to be BadScaryEvilMath. It can be "that thing I do when I need to subtract 7 power points from my 93 per day pool". WATCH THIS: 7 is really 4+3, right? I pick that breakdown because 93 is obviously 90+3. Well, nuke those 3s. Now I'm really subtracting 4 from 90. So... 86. When you teach your eye to see the EASY, tiny numbers, when you learn the shortcuts, it stops being math.
. . . So to implement a power point system for spells also requires re-balancing the spells themselves. . . .
And that may not be a bad thing.
The real trick is that DSP focuses on maximizing their readership by supporting subsystems that Paizo has indicated they don't have any interest in or current plans for; as great as the DSP materials are, they don't want to go head to head with Paizo. . . .
This is true up to a point. If they see a concept they want to do and someone isn't doing it, they go for it if they feel there is enough interest.
As seen by their attempt to recreate a Tome of Battle and Incarnum update in a non violation of closed content way, they seem to like tackling the subsystems late in 3.5 design that haven't made it over to Pathfinder. Considering I like both of those subsystems, I love that.
Then again, I really love that the society mind from their 3.5 work broke into two different classes, the tactician and the vitalist. Both feature really slick mechanics... or at least I feel so.
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As seen by their attempt to recreate a ... Incarnum update in a non violation of closed content way, they seem to like tackling the subsystems late in 3.5 design that haven't made it over to Pathfinder. Considering I like both of those subsystems, I love that.
I see you're familiar with my baby. The Vizier is in the release queue and should be available in the very near future, though Jeremy is really focused on having Path of War and Psionics Embodied ready for GenCon right now. There's also follow books for psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries all in the pipeline, as well as a few other projects that there just isn't enough manpower to actually push ahead with at this time. That's why I was saying that if they did do a point-based spell conversion it'd probably involve them bringing in an additional designer; DSP is crazy busy right now.
. . . DSP is crazy busy right now.
Ah... to be a victim of one's own success. :)
'm just not running into the same issues as you then. Most of the really powerful spells I put on a sorcerer just don't exist for psionics. (especially battlefield control spells. Energy wall is like wall of fire, which I see normally ranked as bad)
The lack of hard negation to psionics is balanced out by the same lack of complete negation from their end. You mention that there is no silence equivalent, but there is also no invisibility, greater invisibility or mirror image equivalent.
Energy Wall (Psion/Wilder3) is better than Wall of Fire (Sor/Wiz4) because you can change the energy, especially with a Psion (Kineticist). Energy Wall is also 1D6 compared to Wall of Fire's 1D4 damage. Maybe it's also how I befuddled the GM with it in one particular PbP game, wrapping it snake-like around the crowd of bad guys, then changing the energy and layering them again 2 rounds later. Wall of Force (Sor/Wiz5), Wall of Ice (Sor/Wiz5), Wall of Iron (Sor/Wiz6), and Wall of Stone (Sor/Wiz5) also have much smaller areas, even if they are more "solid" than Energy Wall. Plus your Psion/Wilder can get Energy Wall at Level 5, rather than Level 7+.
As to Invisibility, Mirror Image, etc, I'll concede the evidence, but psions do get Cloud Mind, it's just inherently weak (one creature only) until you can augment it with 8+ power points. The difference between mind-based powers and magic in the game.
'm just not running into the same issues as you then. Most of the really powerful spells I put on a sorcerer just don't exist for psionics. (especially battlefield control spells. Energy wall is like wall of fire, which I see normally ranked as bad)
The lack of hard negation to psionics is balanced out by the same lack of complete negation from their end. You mention that there is no silence equivalent, but there is also no invisibility, greater invisibility or mirror image equivalent.
Energy Wall (Psion/Wilder3) is better than Wall of Fire (Sor/Wiz4) because you can change the energy, especially with a Psion (Kineticist). Energy Wall is also 1D6 compared to Wall of Fire's 1D4 damage. Maybe it's also how I befuddled the GM with it in one particular PbP game, wrapping it snake-like around the crowd of bad guys, then changing the energy and layering them again 2 rounds later. Wall of Force (Sor/Wiz5), Wall of Ice (Sor/Wiz5), Wall of Iron (Sor/Wiz6), and Wall of Stone (Sor/Wiz5) also have much smaller areas, even if they are more "solid" than Energy Wall. Plus your Psion/Wilder can get Energy Wall at Level 5, rather than Level 7+.
As to Invisibility, Mirror Image, etc, I'll concede the evidence, but psions do get Cloud Mind, it's just inherently weak (one creature only) until you can augment it with 8+ power points. The difference between mind-based powers and magic in the game.
My bias must come from Treantmonk "Wall of Fire: The damage wall of fire does is pretty sad. It is big, so if you are taking on legions of wimps, it's good, but for the average wizard, skip it."
I don't know how you are changing the energy of the spell once it is cast though. Psions are better at blasting than wizards(generally), but I don't see how Energy wall is really battlefeild control. It seems more like a neat damage spell to me. Most the big bads I run into would just walk through it and kill someone.
Energy Wall is a favorite spell power of mine, mostly for deterring things from entering hallways (in one encounter, a psion of mine was facing some zombies and such, so I spread a wall down a tunnel so it would roast any zombies that were in the hallway with some fair damage each round, though most of the zombies were pretty content to just until the fire went away.
That said, as Marroar notes, wall of fire is generally a very poor spell. Wall of Energy is pretty good. The ability to change your energy type isn't going to make it more powerful, just more versatile. It means that if you're fighting a creature immune to fire, you're not sitting on a dead spell known, though non-kineticists need a full-round action (or a move with a feat) to change their active energy type.
Dazing Wall of Fire is pretty good on the other hand.
Yes...yes it is. Dazing Power, however, is drastically nerfed by comparison to Dazing Spell. XD
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Basically energy wall is a good power, so it looks great when compared to its equivalent: A spell that's actually badly designed and crappy in power.
Making Wall of Energy no better than wall of fire would be equivalent to going "sure the monk is terribly designed and really crappy, but this ability is stronger than what a monk can do so we have to break its functionality down until it isn't anymore".
Yeah, it's a lot better than fire-wall; many powers are, but that's just a matter of them having been more carefully balanced and designed, not "because they're overpowered"
Yeah, when I say I think psions are more balanced, I don't mean that I think that they are weaker than normal casters.
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Well my full psionic group has hit lvl 11, it is as follows:
Telepath Psion 11
Vitalist 11
Psy War 11
Marksman 11
Psion is used to playing god wizard and likes how psionic powers scale, and it is more of a chess match then an I win button a wizard was.
Vitalist used a few feets to grab Astral Construct and Collective full group buffs/heals.
Psy war is our DW tanking type with a pounce option making dw decent again.
Marksman puts to shame any other dedicated archer I have seen, full BAB, bonus feats, and other pure range options.
The totaly best thing is everyone has their role, no one shows up another, and no single player could rule the game, no one feels useless during any phase. The non-int based characters all got 4+int skills, this alone was nice, yet another discussion. YMMV
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I've been negatively inclined toward psionics in fantasy since 1st-edition AD&D. I felt that the flavor doesn't mesh well in the fantasy stories I wanted to tell in my Dungeons and Dragons games. I've also had some major problems with having a completely different game mechanic system that did more-or-less exactly what magic already did.
TSR/WotC continued the flavor mis-match and system dichotomy for psionics in both AD&D 2e and in D&D 3.x.
The 3.x psionics system (including DSP's updaiting of it for the PFRPG) are very well thought-out, and balanced systems. However, I just don't see the point of introducing another full game mechanic system that's pretty much equivalent to magic. Consequently, even though it's a fine system, I don't use it.
There is "psychic magic" in my game, to represent things like ESP, telepathy, psychokinesis, object reading, pain suppression, etc. It's essentially a sorcerer bloodline/archetype.
Setting aside game mechanics, another big thing that turns me off about the 3.x / DSP psionics system is what the various psionic character classes are named. The names just seem way too "game-y" for my taste, and are very much out of tune with those of the traditional character classes.
"Rogue," "bard," "wizard," "ranger," "alchemist," "druid," "ninja," "paladin," "sorcerer," "witch," "cavalier," and the rest are all real-world words with long histories in legend and/or literature. The classes reflect, more-or-less, what the words mean in plain English.
The psionic classes have names that don't mean anything outside of the context of the game: "psion," "soulknife," "vitalist," etc. If I referred to a non-gamer about a "wizard" they'd know what I was talking about. If I mentioned a "soulknife..." well, not so much. Heck, even the term "psionics" has far more traction within the role-playing gaming world than as a general term.
Better names for the classes, with ties to what the names actually mean in a literary, mythological, or socio-historical...
The class names are irrelevant. The characters can call themselves whatever they like.
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The class names are irrelevant. The characters can call themselves whatever they like.
The best samurai I've ever seen was a barbarian/rogue/fighter. The witchiest witch I've ever had the pleasure of playing was my psion egoist/shaper. Class names are a metagame concept.
Metagaming. Don't do it. :P
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The class names are irrelevant. The characters can call themselves whatever they like.The best samurai I've ever seen was a barbarian/rogue/fighter. The witchiest witch I've ever had the pleasure of playing was my psion egoist/shaper. Class names are a metagame concept.
Metagaming. Don't do it. :P
Likewise I think the best "Paladin" for many people would just be a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric to get the whole alignment issue out of the way :)
A cleric has a code not unlike that of a paladin, assuming he or she worships a LG god, and are equally capable of "falling".
A cleric has a code not unlike that of a paladin, assuming he or she worships a LG god. Clerics are equally capable of "falling".
Not even close, fortunately. Firstly, clerics don't have a predefined list of no-nos, so generally speaking you're probably dealing with general alignment stuff. Secondly, a cleric must grossly violate their standards to fall. That's a biiiiiig step above Paladins.
I don't think that's true. If you worship a deity, you're beholden to them. You must follow their example, acting in accordance to their will, or you lose your powers. Most GMs are lax on clerics, though, while simultaneously holding paladins to the letter. It's odd, really.
I don't think that's true. If you worship a deity, you're beholden to them. You must follow their example, acting in accordance to their will, or you lose your powers. Most GMs are lax on clerics, though, while simultaneously holding paladins to the letter. It's odd, really.
Because you most grossly violate it. Clerics have some wiggle room. No, you can't go sacrificing babies and stuff if you're following a god that doesn't want you sacrificing babies, but the slightest infraction isn't going to cut you down at the knee.
For Paladins however, the slightest infraction means its time to march back to your nearest top-size city and fork over 3,000 gp to get some priest (even a chaotic evil one) to tell you that everything will be okay and let you be a Paladin again.
Plus, you could always just pick a new deity. I mean, if your chaotic evil cleric becomes neutral, and then good, well...new deity time.
There's also the fact that in the core rules you can play a deity-less cleric. They don't even have to worry about pissing their deity off by accidentally mistaking the alter for a urinal when they're drunk (as I'm sure has led to many a douchebag turned god's cleric's need for atonement).
Only psionic I've ever played was a Soul Knife, in a wacky gestalt game with my GF with our home brew "Free Prestige" rules we were testing out. Soul Knife into Pyrokineticist was fun....
Been dying to pull a wilder out of my rumpus, but there's just so many options I want to try, I'm paralyzed with indecision.
I'm off to check out this vampiric vitalist thing I keep hearing about (To the SRD!).... This sounds like it'd be particularly fun on a Dhampir, more so than the Hungry Ghost monk.
Only psionic I've ever played was a Soul Knife, in a wacky gestalt game with my GF with our home brew "Free Prestige" rules we were testing out. Soul Knife into Pyrokineticist was fun....
Been dying to pull a wilder out of my rumpus, but there's just so many options I want to try, I'm paralyzed with indecision.
I'm off to check out this vampiric vitalist thing I keep hearing about (To the SRD!).... This sounds like it'd be particularly fun on a Dhampir, more so than the Hungry Ghost monk.
I'm actually playing a vampire vitalist (well I will be as soon as I hit 2nd level, until then I'm sitting on an NPC level due to the +1 CR adjustment), and she's basically going to use her vampire powers to heal people. She's got fast healing 2, and she can feed on things to get healing that can be redirected towards nearby allies (which means if we're in a big fight my character can spend actions feeding on downed or disabled opponents to heal allies on the cheap). Her healing methods are basically going to be flavored as a practitioner of a tradition of vampire healers that channel their vampiric aspects onto other creatures, causing them to heal rapidly, obtain temporary HP, etc.
Sounds sexy. Makes me want to build my Dhampir Gluttony Cruoromancer Bloatmage xD. With Blood Drinker and Blood Salvager, naturally :p.
That said... Life Leech sounds so fuun! Misamic does as well. Haven't looked at the Sadist but I don't want to lost enthusiasm for the Life Leech.
Just need to know if Temp HP counts as "HP" for the Vitalist's abilities.... I'm sure it does.
I've been dying to give psionics more of a try, but I'm about the only one willing to actually give it a try. I suppose I'll have to hunt for a PBP with them, which may or may not be rare from what I hear...
People like vampires.
Me? I just love the whole 'leech' character type, though that doesn't sound as cool as "vampire". If I could play a class/race that regains HP, Ki, Spell Slots, or anything I use else by 'leeching' them off the enemy, I'm a happy guy.
Just wish there were more options for that type of character, ya know?
People like vampires.
Me? I just love the whole 'leech' character type, though that doesn't sound as cool as "vampire". If I could play a class/race that regains HP, Ki, Spell Slots, or anything I use else by 'leeching' them off the enemy, I'm a happy guy.
Just wish there were more options for that type of character, ya know?
This is the first time I can remember that I've gotten to play a vampire, but yeah, leeching from enemies is tons of fun. It's one of my favorite things about playing my warlock in WoW. DoT, DoT, DoT, DRAIN. :D
This is the first time I can remember that I've gotten to play a vampire, but yeah, leeching from enemies is tons of fun. It's one of my favorite things about playing my warlock in WoW. DoT, DoT, DoT, DRAIN. :DPeople like vampires.
Me? I just love the whole 'leech' character type, though that doesn't sound as cool as "vampire". If I could play a class/race that regains HP, Ki, Spell Slots, or anything I use else by 'leeching' them off the enemy, I'm a happy guy.
Just wish there were more options for that type of character, ya know?
Oh affliction-lock.
Think of it as the OTHER "divine magic".
Imposing, with only your own power, your will upon the world around you, by said will rather than specific known formulae.In other words, it's pretty much exactly the way the gods themselves do magic.
Yeah... only without quite so much juice.
So eliminate divine casters and have psionic clerics instead? I don't own any of the ver. 3+ psionics books. Have psionicists been given much healing ability?
No. It's in the power source bit.
If you try with some of the 3.0/3.5 stuff, you can do some healing, but it's not as effective as spells. For Pathfinder, the Dreamscarred update added Vitalists and Tacticians, which were variations of the Society Mind they made for 3.5. The Vitalist is an excellent healer and a nifty buffer.