Design Manager
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Oh, I'm very aware, I was just elaborating on the "Paizo has indicated an interest in psychic magic and this is how they've said they'll do it" statement. I, personally, just keep Ultimate Psionics right on my book shelf next to all the Paizo "Ultimate" books and treat it like any other core source book.
[tease] You know what would be cool! Playing a WoW Warlock in Pathfinder! [/tease]
:)
Here's a preview of some of the power-combos, as I just finished writing the create healthstone power.
** spoiler omitted **...
Sweet! :)
I'll quit bugging you about it for a while ;)
No worries. Keeps me motivated / reminded.
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[tease] You know what would be cool! Playing a WoW Warlock in Pathfinder! [/tease]
:)
Here's a preview of some of the power-combos, as I just finished writing the create healthstone power.
** spoiler omitted **...
Sweet! :)
I'll quit bugging you about it for a while ;)No worries. Keeps me motivated / reminded.
*Bug*
...
*Nag*
...
*Whine*
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*Complain*
...
Am I helping?
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I wonder if Ashiel-senpai will notice me...
They better try really hard, because it's damn difficult to find a theme that I can't fluff psionics right into quick, fast, and in a hurry. Especially considering psionics is far closer to real life occultism in its depictions than vancian magic ever was. I've studied various traditions of magic to better understand different cultures and in a few cases to understand some friends of a different religion than my own more clearly (as some religious beliefs incorporate willful influence on the world). I can say in good faith that none of the methods that I have read about look like Vancian magic.I've watched some Diannic and Gardnerian rituals. They look a lot more like Vancian magic than some kind of power you spend spell points on and spam like a bloody video game. I've played psionics from 1st edition through 3.5, Psionics has always felt like video game magic to me. Energy Ray... spend 3 pts. Fire the ray again spend another 3 pts... Overchannel spend 6 pts.... you can't get more of a video game feel than you do with psionics. Psionic Blast... spend 20 psionic attack points. Mind, I could put aside the video game feel and get on with the business of roleplaying the character behind it, but it took effort to do so in 3.5 and was nearly bloody impossible in old AD+D First.
I'm not wedded to Vancian magic, my favorite form is from Ars Magica, which is a basically a cast your arts and form to achieve a needed success level, and whether or not you had to fatigue yourself to do so, or more dangerously whether or not you botched. Because magic was hard and potentially dangerous work. If there is ANYthing that gives the feel of traditional magic, it was Ars Magica.
Spend X energy to get X effect is like the default fantasy take on magic. You put more magic power into the effect you get a better effect. Vancian is the weird one. Very few fantasy characters go "Oops I'm out of "Shoot Fire" for the day. They go "I'm exhausted from using magic, I can only manage a small burst." You know... like how Psionics works.
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When you're knocking down pts from using psi powers, that image goes totally out the window.
I think the problem is here is solely your perception, not the rules. Because the rules very well support the image of a typical fantasty caster.
When you're knocking down pts from using psi powers, that image goes totally out the window.I think the problem is here is solely your perception, not the rules. Because the rules very well support the image of a typical fantasty caster.
Considering I read a lot of Vance and Moorcock as a child, to me, Vancian feels like actual magic. And so to me, it supports a fantasy caster.
Different perceptions for different people.
When you're knocking down pts from using psi powers, that image goes totally out the window.I think the problem is here is solely your perception, not the rules. Because the rules very well support the image of a typical fantasty caster.Considering I read a lot of Vance and Moorcock as a child, to me, Vancian feels like actual magic. And so to me, it supports a fantasy caster.
Different perceptions for different people.
Hrm... sure. But broadly speaking, Vancian magic is rare in fictional works. While Psionic style is much much more common.
Hrm... sure. But broadly speaking, Vancian magic is rare in fictional works. While Psionic style is much much more common.When you're knocking down pts from using psi powers, that image goes totally out the window.I think the problem is here is solely your perception, not the rules. Because the rules very well support the image of a typical fantasty caster.Considering I read a lot of Vance and Moorcock as a child, to me, Vancian feels like actual magic. And so to me, it supports a fantasy caster.
Different perceptions for different people.
True, but to be fair, it feels a lot of fantasy fiction works and entertainment of late seems to just want to follow standard fantasy tropes over trying something new.
More importantly, Vancian casting is rare even in at least the older D&D books. Don't know if those pathfinder novels have wizards and sorcerers working off vancian though.
Psionics just lends itself better to a narrative then vancian. "Uren the Wise, exhausted tried to draw on his last reserves only to realize he was out of prepared spells..."
More importantly, Vancian casting is rare even in at least the older D&D books. Don't know if those pathfinder novels have wizards and sorcerers working off vancian though.Psionics just lends itself better to a narrative then vancian. "Uren the Wise, exhausted tried to draw on his last reserves only to realize he was out of prepared spells..."Or has the master himself might have put it. "Turjahn pondered which four spells he would need on his upcoming voyage. He decided to start with The Excellent Prismatic Spray."
Or to redo your example. "The exhausted Uren pondered his options, he had loosed his last spell against the oncoming barbarians, and while it had slowed them down, he decided that a rapid retreat from the field of battle was in order."
As the master of gravitas demonstrated, it's all in the style of delivery.
I think the story where Uren manages to eke out his last reserves of power is more interesting, then the example where Uren is out of power. You can't have a vancian caster in the "manage to find the strength to win situation" since they either have spell left, or they don't. Psionics therefore I would argue makes for better general reading. Though hey I suppose there is a minority of people who love heroes that dig deep, find out their tapped, and bail like a sinking ship.
Well actually, instead of it being a "reach for reserves", you could phrase it as a "one last ace in the hole"
"Uren was surrounded by the savage barbarians. Back against the wall, he knew that he only had one incantation within him. One last ace up his sleeve. As his hands flourished and eyes glowed crimson, Uren uttered a single word...
'...fireball...'"
Still sounds evocative. Though I find that we are getting grossly off topic from Psioncis.
Well actually, instead of it being a "reach for reserves", you could phrase it as a "one last ace in the hole"
"Uren was surrounded by the savage barbarians. Back against the wall, he knew that he only had one incantation within him. One last ace up his sleeve. As his hands flourished and eyes glowed crimson, Uren uttered a single word...
'...fireball...'"
Still sounds evocative. Though I find that we are getting grossly off topic from Psioncis.
Ya, but the audience already knows he has it. Don't get me wrong, obviously you can make really good fantasty stories with vancian magic, I just find it lends itself less easily to a narrative. "And lo did Urek prepare 3 Fireballs that morning, because he planned poorly and prayed he did not run into thing that required something other then a hammer."
Ya, but the audience already knows he has it. Don't get me wrong, obviously you can make really good fantasty stories with vancian magic, I just find it lends itself less easily to a narrative. "And lo did Urek prepare 3 Fireballs that morning, because he planned poorly and prayed he did not run into thing that required something other then a hammer."Well actually, instead of it being a "reach for reserves", you could phrase it as a "one last ace in the hole"
"Uren was surrounded by the savage barbarians. Back against the wall, he knew that he only had one incantation within him. One last ace up his sleeve. As his hands flourished and eyes glowed crimson, Uren uttered a single word...
'...fireball...'"
Still sounds evocative. Though I find that we are getting grossly off topic from Psioncis.
Ugh, I remember a scene like that R.A. Salvatore's 'A Thousand Orcs' when a someone calls for the Wizard to fireball a group flooding the gate or something, and the Wizard calls back, "I can't, I only prepared 2 fireballs today!" Really kind of broke my immersion in the book.
Honestly, the magic system I would prefer the most would have to be modeled after the Harry Potter universe. Where you can know any number of spells, but you it kind of requires a skill check, or some sort of focus or something or you fail.
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Design Manager
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I remember that exact scene where the wizard yells that he's not an evoker after firing off two lightning bolts and then being done. I'm naturally inclined to like Salvatore's stories and even I was like "This was one of those moments where you should have thrown your Player's Handbook out the window and just wrote what felt right. That was stupid."
Can we instead talk about fun things that we've had Psionic characters do in a game?
I had a Psychic Warrior Pathmaster (Weapon Master) start the game with 17 HP once
8+2(con)+1(FCB)+6(Psionic body)
Feats
Psionic Body
Speed of Thought
Psionic Weapon
It was hilarious and kind of awkward because he had more than the Barb. By next level it evened out though.
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I remember one of my friends playing a Psion who's favorite power created, in his own words, "Ecto Boogers" that he would snort out of his nose and throw at people. It was actually two powers, Ectoplasmic Sheen and Entangling Ectoplasm, but he flavored them both as one power (still counted as two mechanically). He would hawk and snort out a big green booger that he would then throw on people to make them slippery or stick them to the floor/walls/tree etc.
Kind of gross, but hilarious when he, essentially, covered a dragon in his boogers and kept it from flying. :)
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That sounds awesome.
"You all know what spell I'm going to pick...."
I remember that exact scene where the wizard yells that he's not an evoker after firing off two lightning bolts and then being done. I'm naturally inclined to like Salvatore's stories and even I was like "This was one of those moments where you should have thrown your Player's Handbook out the window and just wrote what felt right. That was stupid."
Eeeeeh, honestly I like calling casters by their specialties rather than by the generic "Wizard" moniker.
Nobody bats an eye when someone names themselves a Necromancer or Enchanter (though I dunno if I've ever seen an Enchanter, just a ton of Enchantresses) and to a lesser extent Diviner or Illusionist, in a story, I don't see why calling yourself an Evoker (or not, in this case) "in character" is that much of a stretch.
You'll notice that of the 5, only one of them (Evoker, sadly) is flagged by auto-correct! They're that commonly used.
It's just a quick shorthand for what the character's magic specialty is. In this case "Not blasty s%*!".
I have a theory, we shall find out if I'm right when I get back from fishing in the morning.
I play Sorcerers, usually, and I don't have a problem saying "Conjuring Sorcerer" or "Summoning Sorcerer". Piers Anthony's Xanth series had no problem calling spellcasters by their specialty. As I playing a psionic character, I don't use "points" while IC. I say "reservoir of mental energy" or "wellspring of mental energy". I even use it when leveling, saying "his well felt deeper within his mind".
We say "Psion (Telepath)" or just "Telepath" all the time. I happen to not like some of the longer names, which remind me too much of Julian May's stories about psionics. "Metacreativity" sounds better as "shaper". "Seer" is better than "clairsentience", even though to our modern cultures you will see "clairvoyant" more often than "farseer" or "farsight" or "the Sight". I generally accept that a medieval/fantasy culture using psionics would be slightly more scientific than a "gotta make the Philosopher's Stone" magic-based society.
And Dreamscarred Press has done its' best to make sure they don't pigeonhole certain psionic classes. You can be a Psion (Shaper) and make stuff out of ectoplasm, but so does the Aegis (Ectopic Artisan), with a more Summoner/Eidolon-like calling. A Psion (Mindwright) has even more crafting capability than the Psion (Shaper) (along with the coveted 5% off crafting that a Hedge Wizard gets from Advanced Player's Guide). A Dread (Nightmare Constructor) also gets an eidolon, an astral construct in name only. That's just the "I want to make an astral construct" possibilities that cross-over the classes.
If I wanted to be a psionic that used guns, I could choose Marksman (Kaigun), or Soulknife (Soulbolt). If I wanted to be a pure psionicist fighter with a gun there's even the Armored Blade archtype under Soulknife, I don't need psionic power points to power Inertial Armor. (Although I have gotten kudos from other magic-using players because of the way Inertial Armor scales compared to Mage Armor.) The Aegis doesn't get to have all the fun making armor and weapons psionically.
So choose what you want out of Ultimate Psionics and go with what you like in a psionics game.
Ya, but the audience already knows he has it. Don't get me wrong, obviously you can make really good fantasty stories with vancian magic, I just find it lends itself less easily to a narrative. "And lo did Urek prepare 3 Fireballs that morning, because he planned poorly and prayed he did not run into thing that required something other then a hammer."Well actually, instead of it being a "reach for reserves", you could phrase it as a "one last ace in the hole"
"Uren was surrounded by the savage barbarians. Back against the wall, he knew that he only had one incantation within him. One last ace up his sleeve. As his hands flourished and eyes glowed crimson, Uren uttered a single word...
'...fireball...'"
Still sounds evocative. Though I find that we are getting grossly off topic from Psioncis.
Ugh, I remember a scene like that R.A. Salvatore's 'A Thousand Orcs' when a someone calls for the Wizard to fireball a group flooding the gate or something, and the Wizard calls back, "I can't, I only prepared 2 fireballs today!" Really kind of broke my immersion in the book.
Honestly, the magic system I would prefer the most would have to be modeled after the Harry Potter universe. Where you can know any number of spells, but you it kind of requires a skill check, or some sort of focus or something or you fail.
Might I suggest The Spellweaver?
I'm actually finding the Aegis to be fun. I jut retrained my level 11 fighter to be one and it came together really well.
Not sure if I can handle having tactical options while still being able to go, "AM SMASH!" like a fighter when I want to.
While Psionic style is much much more common.
Is it? We have three classic authors and many others who used Vancian style... I am wondering what authors used psionic style? I can't think of any. I admit I haven't read many novels in the last decade maybe this is a new thing I missed?
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While Psionic style is much much more common.Is it? We have three classic authors and many others who used Vancian style... I am wondering what authors used psionic style? I can't think of any. I admit I haven't read many novels in the last decade maybe this is a new thing I missed?
Nearly every writer of a book, TV show, video game, comic, manga/anime, or movie has used a magic system a lot closer to Power Points/MP/Mana/Special Reserves/Whatever than Vancian.
You would have had to somehow ignore every piece of media to come out within the last 30 years or so to miss that.
ie Dresden.
He has spells that he knows, but does not use slots to prepare them.
Instead he has a pool of energy to draw from (ie. points). Once the pool is used, he's done till he rests.
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Also worth noting that even Moorcock wasn't entirely Vancian in his magic system. A couple of Elric's big spells were pretty Vancian but his more regular use stuff struck me as being much more pool based.
Steven Erickson's Malazan wizards are definitely more psionic, Jim Butcher's Dresden, Ed Greenwood pretends to be using Vancian magic but isn't, Brandon Sanderson's stories always use pool based casting, Robert Jordan's channelers are much closer to psionics than Vancian, Brent Weeks favors pool based casting, pretty much any comic book caster is closer to psionics, Marion Zimmer Bradley's casters typically come off as pretty psionic/pool based... It's early yet, I'm sure I can think of more.
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Pool casting: Gandalf, Harry Potter, Mageborn, Comic Books, Most Anime, the belgariad, The book of the new sun*
Vancian: The chronicles of Amber, Half-orcs, Some Anime, The book of the new sun*
*It had both or neither, I can't really tell.
Actually it DOES have the prepared memorisation, can't do it again aspect in ADDITION to draining him physically. Elric never casts any spell twice.
Steven Erickson's Malazan wizards are definitely more psionic, Jim Butcher's Dresden, Ed Greenwood pretends to be using Vancian magic but isn't, Brandon Sanderson's stories always use pool based casting, Robert Jordan's channelers are much closer to psionics than Vancian, Brent Weeks favors pool based casting, pretty much any comic book caster is closer to psionics, Marion Zimmer Bradley's casters typically come off as pretty psionic/pool based... It's early yet, I'm sure I can think of more.In comic books, magic is just another super power. Bradley's stories are psionic based to start with, if you're referring to the Darkover series which was her bread and butter. It's not surprising that her other works reflect that same style. When TV does magic such as Dresden and Buffy, it tends to be heavily influenced by DC comic book styles.
Elric doesn't spam spells psionic style, in fact he rarely casts at all, but when he does it's a long drawn out ritual full of extremely precise intonation and incantation, and only done once. you don't get much more Vancian than that.
Except without the prepared memorization, now that I've done it I can't do it again aspect. And it tends to drain him physically. It's really more formal ritual casting than either spontaneous/Vancian/psionic magic.
Sounds more like 4e encounter/ritual magic to me.
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That's more because Elric doesn't need to cast a spell twice. You generally don't see him whipping out a spellbook every morning to relearn his spells; he knows what he knows and can cast as often as his body can support.
Though I'll agree with thejeff that he's about equally far removed from both Vancian and psionics and looks more like 4e ritual casting than anything else.
I don't think "spamming" spells is a psionic feature; that's more of a sorcerer thing. If anything psionics are pretty well known for coming out swinging hard and petering out quickly if not carefully conserved, pretty iconic of a lot of fantasy archetypes.
It says something about Vancian casting that Ed Greenwood's Elminster, the most iconic wizard since Gandalf (who also wasn't a Vancian caster), and every wizard he comes into contact with, treat their memorized spells as just one big pool of energy that can be changed and adapted as needed, basically giving lip service to Vancian casting and then using psionic mechanics.
Final Fantasy uses a casting system that resembles psionics far more than Vancian, as does pretty much every other video game that isn't specifically designed to model D&D Vancian mechanics.
The idea of pool based casting is just way more ingrained in fantasy literature and culture than Vancian casting.
Ok the more I hear about Elric the more he sounds like a 4e casters.
Doesn't cast the same spells twice, doesn't prepare spells, needs spell books for rituals/complex spells, spell casting is taxing on him (that's the justification for encounter powers).
This just sounds SUPER 4e, which is neither Vancian or Pool based.
Elric's spellcasting is all ritual, there is no d20 style casual spellcasting in the world of the Young Kingdoms. He's actually given a spell to memorise on one instance. (memorise this spell and then break the stone, he's told.) It's the spell that summons the various incarnations of Stormbringer.Ok the more I hear about Elric the more he sounds like a 4e casters.
Doesn't cast the same spells twice, doesn't prepare spells, needs spell books for rituals/complex spells, spell casting is taxing on him (that's the justification for encounter powers).
This just sounds SUPER 4e, which is neither Vancian or Pool based.
4e is mainly ritual magic for the spellcasters. The encounter powers are for combat.
Anybody could acquire the ability to use Rituals with a feat. So, yeah, fighter who used a feat for Ritual Casting.