Hello forum,
I confess a certain ignorance regarding many of the hot topics on these boards. One topic I've seen on thread titles, but I haven't read deeply into, is whether or not Summoners are "OP". I believe I've read that the Summoner class is not PFS legal? Is that correct?
Also its seems that most PBPost GMs do not allow Summoners(or at least ban certain archetypes) in their games.
I am starting my first PBPost game, and I am soliciting you all for your opinions on this matter, so help me make a more educated decision as to whether I should allow them.
Thanks for any thoughts you have.
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Summoner is PFS legal, but the Master Summoner and Synthesist Summoner archetypes are not.
The Summoner itself I allow, simply because it's an easy hook for new players that are familiar with Final Fantasy. Those two archetypes can become absurdly powerful, but Synthesist is a great option for making a superhero character, from Venom to Iron Man.
Sure. I've seen no reason to prohibit them.
The summoner is legal in PFS, but most of the archetypes for that class in Ultimate Magic are not.
The Synthesist was banned because many PFS players would create weak summoners who could only function while fused with their eidolon suits, which made many "social" encounters rather awkward. If you plan to have such encounters, simply warn anyone intending to play a synthesist that they will occasionally need to dismiss their "suits".
A big problem with the Broodmaster and Master Summoner archetypes is the time it takes for multiple eidolons or summoned creatures to take their turns in real time games. I do not know enough about how you handle combat in PBP to know whether a large number of creatures under the control of one player would slow down your game or not.
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Summoners are insanely powerful at low levels, and only less powerful at higher levels in relation to the pure caster types when they start to hit the mid and high level spells.
A Summoner is a 3/4 BAB armoured caster to start with, then powers up with an eidolon and (most importantly) their disgustingly powerful summon monster SLA. It's the SLA that really does it: they can cast the thing as a standard action (as opposed to the full-round casting time of the spell) and it lasts 1 minute a level (10x the usual duration)... and they can pull this trick 3+Charisma modifier times per day. Stop and think about that for a moment: it's not like some level 1 bloodline or school power, it's a much, much, better version of one of the game's most powerful spells which even a 1st level Summoner is likely to be able to cast 6 to 8 times per day... on top of his actual spells. The FAQ even states that stuff like the Augment Summoning Feat works with it... just in case it wasn't powerful enough to start with!
Luckily for most GMs, many players seem to forget about the SLA in favour of the eidolon. An eidolon can be designed to be good, and can easily be better than the party Fighter types at level 1, but pales in comparison to the SLA when the player in question knows what they're doing (once the Summoner gains access to monsters which come with their own spells and SLA it really kicks into high gear, but even at low levels with a 1 minute per level duration there's a huge amount of utility you can get out of the things).
All that said, I'd guess that the main reason they often get hit with the ban hammer is the same reason that the Leadership Feat often does: it can be a pain to have a PC running a gaggle of NPCs and slow the game to a crawl.
If the idea is to ban possible overpowered classes, then Summoners would have to wait a few turns in that line while some other full casters were tabooed first. From what I've read and experienced, the main problems are:
(1) Summoners and their eidelons are crazy rules heavy. It's easy acting in good faith to build and/or play the rules wrong. Nothing wrong with GM and player going over the character sheet which should hopefully fix that potential problem. Add that you need data on Monster Summoning for most builds and the class is not for those who don't like doing their homework.
(2) Master Summoners can wreck the battle field with nearly countless spams of summoned critters. If that drives the GM or other players crazy, there are spells (and especially buff spells) that can be used instead.
(3) At certain levels Summoners can be really powerful compared to other players depending on makeup of crew and style of crew. At lower levels my Master Summoner mopped the floor but by 8th level or so the Oracle and Magus were way more powerful in combat. YMMV.
Do you trust your players with complicated and sensitive rules? Do you have characters who can adapt their style of play if it chafes the group? Are you as GM patient/ willing to put up power-at-level blips?
Summoners are OK but the rules for Eidolons seem commonly misinterpreted and as such I say no to them.
I don't allow them b/c they're too rules heavy, which makes them too easy to abuse. It takes too much upkeep and requires very high system mastery to stay within RAW, not to mention RAI.
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You'll also find that as a GM you'll need to be familiar with the capabilities of every creature on the Summon Monster lists the character can access - not too hard if it's Play by Post and you've got time to spare flicking through bestiaries and cross-referencing rules, but potentially a significant investment in time and effort. Technically this is the same when any character takes Summon Monster spells (or is a Cleric or Druid), but unless your Summoner's player never puts the eidolon away this is going to crop up a lot with that class in the group.
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There are a couple issues with the summoner.
1. They are complicated especially if you include certain archetypes like the synthesist. Its really easy to get things wrong, particularly players not familiar with their mechanics. You will need to look over their characters carefully. Might even want to have the boards proofread it for you.
2. Summoning in general can bog the game down, if a summoner (particularly the master summoner) has a bunch of summons out, their turn can take a long time, not so much of an issue for pbp though.
3. Summoners are hyper optimized with little to no effort. They get to pick and choose everything they get. Which means that if a player just picks what seems like a good choice each time, they will be WAAY more powerful then another character who has put in similar effort. If your group heaviliy optimizes then the summoner wont be more powerful then others. The problem generally comes from groups that dont normally optimize, so the summoner comes out beastly by comparison.
In a group that generally doesnt optimize, the summoner will need to deliberately take less then optimal choices for its eidolon to keep it even with the rest of the party. If the group puts significant effort into optimization, then chances are it wouldnt be any more of a problem then a druid or wizard.
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You'll also find that as a GM you'll need to be familiar with the capabilities of every creature on the Summon Monster lists the character can access - not too hard if it's Play by Post and you've got time to spare flicking through bestiaries and cross-referencing rules, but potentially a significant investment in time and effort. Technically this is the same when any character takes Summon Monster spells (or is a Cleric or Druid), but unless your Summoner's player never puts the eidolon away this is going to crop up a lot with that class in the group.
This is not summoner specific. A wizard specialized in conjuration will be pulling from the same lists just as frequently.
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Most of the other posters above me have covered the key points. The Summoner is technically complicated, very easy to optimize (and thus problematic in low-op groups), his summons can bog down the game, and he's a bit too strong at low levels. All of these are perfectly true, and make the Summoner best suited for more advanced groups.
However, there are two additional factors I'd like to add: the Summoner does very well in low-wealth and low point-buy games. Anyone GM going for that style is going to have problems with the Summoner since he really doesn't care about his other stats so long as he has 13 to start in charisma. His ability to rely on natural attacks and his own buffing spells in lieu of magic items means he can get by without magic items altogether.
Since you asked "why or why not" about them, Summoners are fun to play. I've liked playing mine, and adapting to our groups needs and play styles, the other players like the options I bring to the table. Buff spells, flanking buddies, means of transport, walls of summons so we can run away- good times.
I do not allow them in my game. The class does not exist in my game world.
Their spell list is problematic, and I object to the "create your own eidolon" rules.
If the class spell list got corrected (relatively easy fix) and the eidolon rules worked more like a druid's animal companion (which would essentially be a ground-up class redesign), then I'd probably allow them.
My players aren't itching for this class, so I just ignore it.
A big problem with the Broodmaster and Master Summoner archetypes is the time it takes for multiple eidolons or summoned creatures to take their turns in real time games. I do not know enough about how you handle combat in PBP to know whether a large number of creatures under the control of one player would slow down your game or not.
And this can even be a problem with a generic Summoner, since Summoning is what he does.
Summoners slow down gameplay and become "spotlight hogs". So can a druid, but it just doesn't occur that often.
Also, the math on the Eidolon is ALWAYS wrong (and almost always in the players favor). I suggest highly to new DM's that they post any summoner build here, and the various experts will quickly show the errors.
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Summoners aren't for beginners as they are rules heavy.
At my tables I have a few houserules which I stick to.
1. The eidolon is triple checked by player and GM to ensure no errors have crept in.
2. The players of all PCs which summon must have the SM or SNA sheets printed out, with Augment summoning included as necessary. This speeds up play and stops the "Where's the book..." breaks and keeps the game flowing.
3. All players are encouraged to purchase multiple d20s of various colours and multiple damage dice of the corresponding colour. Again there is nothing which slows the game to a crawl than someone rolling 5 d20s one at a time then 5 d6 to do a full attack. This is the quickest way to have your PC killed :D
thank you all.
One important thing to note about summoners and their summon monster SLA:
A Summoner is a 3/4 BAB armoured caster to start with, then powers up with an eidolon and (most importantly) their disgustingly powerful summon monster SLA. It's the SLA that really does it: they can cast the thing as a standard action (as opposed to the full-round casting time of the spell) and it lasts 1 minute a level (10x the usual duration)... and they can pull this trick 3+Charisma modifier times per day.
This is true but the bolded part is a little misleading.
"Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."
Therefore it is a little limited. I am lucky to have a player in my campaign who understands this rule, why it is there, and is adamant about following it. I admit I missed it when I first looked at the class. A rookie GM will weep if he allows a summoner and both player and GM miss that limitation.
Also to clarify about the two bad archetypes:
Master Summoner summons too many things. It's powerful and time-consuming.
Synthesist Summoner basically has the CODzilla problem of being able to dump their physical stats and boost their mental scores through the roof. It also throws the balance magical items off without GM fiat. Since they have awesome armor and weapons already, they can have better magical items than the rest of the party.
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OK summoner, you look like you're a caster, with most of the juicier bits of the wizard's spell list, so what's with the whole 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, light armor thing you have going on?
"Well, I'm not a FULL caster. I only get 6 levels worth of spells, you know, like a bard."
Aha. So you get similar spells, but while a wizard is getting their level 3 spells when they hit level 5, and a sorcerer gets them at level 6, you have to wait all the way until level 7 for them then. OK, I can see that.
"Well, yeah... some spells I actually get at a lower spell level than a wizard does though."
Oh, like the summon monster spells I assume. I suppose it would make sense that you'd get those around the same level a sorcerer or wizard would, moving some of the higher level spells down and such.
"Yeah. Stuff like those, and then stuff we'd want to cast on the summons, like haste."
... You get haste as a second level spell.
"Yeah!"
So you have access to one of the most useful spells in the game, 1-3 levels earlier than every other class that can cast it, granting your party early access, making it cheaper to make potions and wands, and preventing it from taking up one of your 3rd level slots, which you're then really using, I'm sure, to cast 4th level spells.
"I've also got this thing that's like a druid's pet except it frequently outperforms the barbarian in the party..."
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A big problem with the Broodmaster and Master Summoner archetypes is the time it takes for multiple eidolons or summoned creatures to take their turns in real time games. I do not know enough about how you handle combat in PBP to know whether a large number of creatures under the control of one player would slow down your game or not.And this can even be a problem with a generic Summoner, since Summoning is what he does.
Summoners slow down gameplay and become "spotlight hogs". So can a druid, but it just doesn't occur that often.
Also, the math on the Eidolon is ALWAYS wrong (and almost always in the players favor). I suggest highly to new DM's that they post any summoner build here, and the various experts will quickly show the errors.
From my experience, this isn't always true. An experienced player can easily manage his summons/eidolon, and can bow out of the spotlight just as easily as he can jump in it. I rarely see people with Eidolon math off, or who always hog the spotlight. Of course, this is partly because I am lucky enough to see several friendly and experienced players who are willing to help newer players run the numbers and explain rules at my local gaming venues. It can easily be true, but is IMO a bit too broad as a generalization.
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So you have access to one of the most useful spells in the game, 1-3 levels earlier than every other class that can cast it, granting your party early access, making it cheaper to make potions and wands, and preventing it from taking up one of your 3rd level slots, which you're then really using, I'm sure, to cast 4th level spells.
If my wizard was not throwing Haste off scrolls at 4th level I might have an issue.
Since he was buffing the party with Haste before 5th level, I don't really have room to complain.
Also, the math on the Eidolon is ALWAYS wrong (and almost always in the players favor).Be very careful with such broad statements.
Some of us do get it right.
No doubt. I've got a Master Summoner as well as a Synth in home games, and helped my friend build another. They're not hard to build once you read both the book and the FAQ carefully.
I discourage them for a couple reasons: they slow the game down, and I've had bad feelings arise at tables before over battlefield-clogging summons getting in the way of where fighters need to stand to do their job, etc. Large animal companions are bad enough without summon monster spells being layered on top of it.
It's mostly the game speed thing, though.
I discourage them for a couple reasons: they slow the game down, and I've had bad feelings arise at tables before over battlefield-clogging summons getting in the way of where fighters need to stand to do their job, etc. Large animal companions are bad enough without summon monster spells being layered on top of it.
It's mostly the game speed thing, though.
Are these the kind of guys who run in before spellcasters drop their nukes? Battlefield controllers and those guys don't mix. I suppose the opposite's true, too - a bad "god wizard" wannabe throwing out the wrong stuff can really muck up a melee guy's good time. If you mix the 2 and shake well it should make for quite an entertaining evening!
The best way I know to clear up the speed issue is to have your ducks in a row. If its a big group I probably wouldn't play a minionmancer of any kind unless it was a dedicated tag team or maybe a mounted character. The master summoner would probably be a poor choice in those games, but a synth or even regular summoner shouldn't be too bad.
I don't allow them for many of the reasons cited here. They're just not worth the trouble for me.
Summoners are not a problem in and of themselves. It depends on how well your group optimize, how well the player can build one correctly, and the type of game you run as a GM.
I would let a player try it, but let him know this is trial so he will understand if you ask him to get rid of it.
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Summoners aren't for beginners as they are rules heavy.
At my tables I have a few houserules which I stick to.
1. The eidolon is triple checked by player and GM to ensure no errors have crept in.
2. The players of all PCs which summon must have the SM or SNA sheets printed out, with Augment summoning included as necessary. This speeds up play and stops the "Where's the book..." breaks and keeps the game flowing.
3. All players are encouraged to purchase multiple d20s of various colours and multiple damage dice of the corresponding colour. Again there is nothing which slows the game to a crawl than someone rolling 5 d20s one at a time then 5 d6 to do a full attack. This is the quickest way to have your PC killed :D
I think this is the key. If a player is organized and is willing to to the work and not to be a pain in the rear, by all means allow them.
I have two summoners. One with a standard beat stick eidolon and the other who is a skill monkey who counts on his summons (He wouldn't want his wife/eidolon to be endangered. After all, think of the children). I keep a special file with PDF printouts with my spells, monsters, etc ready to go.
Also to clarify about the two bad archetypes:Master Summoner summons too many things. It's powerful and time-consuming.
It can be. I generally self-nerf by keeping my eidolon out and using it as a wand monkey or dazzling display debuffer. The rest of the party usually appreciates the help. Treantmonk had a tip in one of his old guides to not summon too many things at once and hog the table and I try to follow it when I'm running a summoner of any kind. Sometimes, though, only a small army of celestial eagles will do, and the folks I'm playing with appreciate the fact that I'm pulling out the stops to save our bacon.
Frankly, my Master Summoner is my "easy mode" character. My spells are picked, I know my options, and I almost always have something to contribute without having to micromanage a spell or equipment list. It allows me to relax and roleplay rather than juggle the 5 page list that I always wind up with when I'm playing a prepared caster or rogue.
Synthesist Summoner basically has the CODzilla problem of being able to dump their physical stats and boost their mental scores through the roof. It also throws the balance magical items off without GM fiat. Since they have awesome armor and weapons already, they can have better magical items than the rest of the party.
True enough, but I guess this depends on how you play it. If you're not wearing your demonic-looking meatsuit in town because of roleplaying reasons and get ambushed, you have to deal with your low scores and whatever equipment you've got with you until you can get it up and running.
And I gotta admit, sometimes I just want to play "Venom" or "Iron Man" in the fantasy game and the synth is one of the best ways to make that happen.
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I allow (maybe even encourage) summoners, but I do not allow archetypes. I ban the synthesist both because it encourages min/maxing and because of what I perceive to be rules ambiguities. How can a small biped (halfling or gnome) have a medium quadruped "suit"? I ban the broodmaster for the same reason I ban the druid beastmaster - too many creatures per player, hence long turns. I ban the other archetypes because it is easier to say that the base class is allowed, and no archetypes.
EDIT: I like having a summoner in the group precisely because it is so powerful. I can throw bigger, badder enemies at the party.
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I enjoy summoners and want to add the ability to create your own Eidolon allows you to somewhat have more freedom in character design instead of being force fed into the same forms all the time. Even archtypes do not give you the freedom to chooser which features you trade out and what you get in return. You still basically are forced to look at a menue and pick one with little to no doe ial orders. The benefits of feats are almost always so minor that they are not really all that super customizing.
I think almost every players gets their numbers wrong and has to have them independently checked. Not just summoners. If you are worried about finding every error, we will help. But make the Summoner post it to save you from that time, then just check in.
In the custom setting I am partly personally responsible for maintaining, the class doesn't exist. There's essentially three reasons for this-
1) This started as a 3.0 game back in 2001, and the class didn't exist back then and nothing in continuity suggests that it should suddenly start existing (the Gunslinger class does not exist for a similar reason.)
2) It's rules intensive, and doesn't necessarily seem to be worth the effort to get everybody comfortable with the specifics of the mechanics for what the class potentially adds to games versus what can be done with other classes.
3) I don't personally like the fluff. Personally I'm inclined to view "communicating with the beings from the farthest reaches of the planes" as more of a "Very Bad Idea" in a Lovecraftian sense (the furthest reaches of the planes are where all the nasty, tremendously alien stuff hangs out), so a thing that only villains and madmen are doing, than the basis for one's magical career and an entire character class.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the class per se, I'm just not fond of it, so I don't have it in my games.
I think summoners are great, as a DM. They hit the sweet spot for me in terms of being easily customisable, strong without too much optimisation but not so gamebreaking as to ruin your game entirely like a wizard can do.
Just don't give them to new players or build one when there's a new DM. That's it, really.
As for PFS: synth and master summoner were banned not for balance reasons, but because synth has very poorly written rules which resulted in a lot of table variation (and by table variation I mean, often unplayable discrepencies)and because master summoner needs a lot of prep time for monster lists etc and new players were picking the class and bogging down the game somewhat awful.
To the original poster -
I allow summoners in my game. Then again, I am used to magic shenanigans and not afraid of house rules if players run into a situation not covered by the rules (My Eidolon is petrified, now what?)
One thing to keep in mind for point buy games, the Eidolon (and any animal companion) does not change. In a low point buy game of 15 or less points, such beings tend to become much more powerful and overshadowing than a PC. On the flip side, the beast pals are almost pitied in over the top games (30+ point buy, or mythic campaign).
Just something to dwell on.
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I've always been a bit sad because Pathfinder summons are pitifully bad at the summoned area effects that are a staple of FF summons. I've been half-assedly working on a homebrew summoner archetype in which the summoner trades her action economy and her eidolon's physical abilities to make a better magic-using eidolon. Are there any good (read: not silly-overpowered) archetypes already? If not, I may have to put my whole ass into finishing and playtesting the archetype.
The Fetchling Shadowcaller is pretty nice for this. Their summon list is modified, but what really helps is the ability to summon Shae with SM V. Shae have lesser Shadow Evocation as an at-will SLA, allowing them to make quasi-real versions of any wizard evocation spell of 2nd level or lower. Burning hands, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, and so on at will. They get two saves, but otherwise it's pretty sweet.
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On the 'Why?' side of the coin, a Summoner in the group means that as the GM you'll get to play lots of interesting NPCs. Even if you don't control the eidolon or summoned monsters in terms of game actions (that's really for the player to do) you can give them personalities and quirks and stuff to make them interesting.
Think about having the same monsters summoned whenever the Summoner uses his SLA to summon a specific type. Don't allow the players to abuse this by handing the summoned critter equipment to bring back later or anything, but having the same excitable fire elemental, foul-mouthed dretch, overly pious lantern archon, or long-suffering hound archon turn up each time can add entertainment value all round. This works better for the Summoner than for the vanilla spell version because of the extended duration - Summoners can summon critters for more utilitarian reasons than just the usual fighting summon monster spells are often reserved for. Such NPCs can also help you nudge your players in certain directions with off-hand comments and the like, without you having to impose an actual (often highly-resented if not done right) DMPC in the group, or having random NPCs show up out of nowhere when the PCs get stuck.
For Terry Pratchet fans, think of the wizards summoning Death...
'I WAS AT A PARTY...'
I like summoners and was playing them before they got their own class. Two suggestion for newer GMs or GMs on the fence about allowing them. Don't use point buy for ability stats. Roll the dice. Some will be over powered but many will be underpowered compared to point buy. Limit the eidolon to forms that already exist in your game. Genie binder in Katapesh? Cool, build a genie eidolon. Devil worshipers in Cheliax? Ok devil eidolons are allowed. This will coral some of the options and let you know better what to expect.
A house rule I have added, is that the summoner is stunned when his link to the eidolon is severed. Drop the eidolon and the summoner suffers a bit. I think this should also apply to the summon monster, but it has not come up yet, so I've not tested it.