Ok so you picked the ONE ADVENTURE full of creatures with poor will saves. Congrats. You could just as easily say a bard with Charm person could dominate the game as well. That is a problem with the AP more than anything. If EVERYTHING has piss poor will saves then ANY SoS would have the same effect...See, I feel people's main issue with the witch is less Slumber hex but more the unholy trio as I call it.
The reason slumber hex is always targeted is because it has the most obvious effect. Small Debuffs tend to not get attention because they, in and of themselves, do not attract much attention.
For instance, try and play Slumber hex everywhere without doing the whole Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle combo. I guarentee that you will find it much less and issue (assuming the GM isn't just throwing Orcs at ya). With the unholy trio you can really drop just about anything for the most part...
Reign of Winter: lots of warrior soldiers, lots of winter wolves, lots of ice trolls, lots of frost giants. Decent shot at dropping one a round of these with slumber hex straight up.
Debuffing is strong but takes a couple rounds or combo with others while slumber hex goes straight in with a very good 1/target SoD. debuffing can significantly depower a boss which will have an effect on the perceived challenge but slumber knocks enemies out quickly with one shot which has more of an unfun effect IMO.
Kingmaker, S&S, practically everything that is not full of undead, constructs, elves, outsiders or spellcasting enemies.
It is not "the one adventure", it is very common.
Did you miss the party were I said strong will saves help a lot.
Oh! And for people complaining because "Witch's Hexes are Su so they get around SR!!! SO BROKENZZZ!!!" I have to ask, When was the last time you actually PLAYED a caster? Short of some very extreme examples, SR on monsters is a joke. Most of those things do jack squat to actually stop a caster... just saying... That is like saying DR x/magic is meant to help slow down high level martials... At that point DR x/magic may as well not exist...
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I ran Legacy of Fire for a six person group with two witches. (Somebody really liked the idea of a "sand witch." Also 4/6 of the party was looking for their sister Haleen, but I digress.)
They had slumber. It got used a lot. It also got them turned into pincushions by a lot of gnoll archers because they had to be so close.
It was certainly strong, and yes occasionally it was frustrating to me as GM to watch a strong encounter rendered trivial due to the hex. But organized humanoids would take the actions needed to wake each other up. And it's my policy as GM that if PCs feel their abilities are effective and they're having fun then I can put up with the occasional disappointment.
It may have actually helped that I bumped the number of foes by 50% to account for the larger party.
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Did you miss the party were I said strong will saves help a lot.
You missed:
outsiders or spellcasting enemies.
- * -
Oh! And for people complaining because "Witch's Hexes are Su so they get around SR!!! SO BROKENZZZ!!!" I have to ask, When was the last time you actually PLAYED a caster? Short of some very extreme examples, SR on monsters is a joke. Most of those things do jack squat to actually stop a caster... just saying... That is like saying DR x/magic is meant to help slow down high level martials... At that point DR x/magic may as well not exist...
A 20% or so chance of failure before the target make a save is not a joke.
Losing a spell or SLA if someone has a readied action to wound you is not a joke.
I have never seen a GM not let you know which monster is using SU ___ against you. Now if a player wants to try that argument they can, but they will likely regret it soon enough.I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
SLA dont require hand moving. Casting defensively makes it a non issue, and bypassing SR can be really easy if a player really wants to go that route.
If your players are good with building the problems you have might be delayed, but they won't be stopped. I am not saying don't change the rules for your game. I am just saying don't be surprised when you run into them again at later levels.
Those aren't the only advantages of supernatural abilities against SLA.
Swarm? The distraction ability alone make casting spells a problem (20+SL is never a joke). Supernatural ability? Not a problem.SLA use is perceptible. Supernatural abilities isn't unless it give some outward sign of what it does. A big advantage in social situations.
Really? So a Dark Tapestry oracle that use Gift of Madness or Brain drain is immediately identified as the one that attacked the target?
AFAIK that is exactly the opposite of how it work. The target, if he make his save, know that he has been attacked, if he fail it depend on the kind of attack. But unless the attack has some visible effect other people don't know at all that something has happened.
The different Knowledge skills can help identifying the effect, but not the perpetrator.
I am just telling you how I see them played, just like if a vampire use Dominate it is identified despite having several other creatures on its side.
So like I said the players can use that logic, and I will happily oblige them, but if they are in a crowd of people and start being forced to make saves they would be in a lot of trouble.
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Oh! And for people complaining because "Witch's Hexes are Su so they get around SR!!! SO BROKENZZZ!!!" I have to ask, When was the last time you actually PLAYED a caster? Short of some very extreme examples, SR on monsters is a joke.
Considering that a CR +2 monster with SR will generally force a 20-30% spell failure chance against a spell (Unless the caster has Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, which require feat investments) I'm going to call shenanigans on this statement.
Oh! And for people complaining because "Witch's Hexes are Su so they get around SR!!! SO BROKENZZZ!!!" I have to ask, When was the last time you actually PLAYED a caster? Short of some very extreme examples, SR on monsters is a joke.Considering that a CR +2 monster with SR will generally force a 20-30% spell failure chance against a spell (Unless the caster has Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, which require feat investments) I'm going to call shenanigans on this statement.
There are ways to use spells with no SR and be effective, and says to get your SR bonus high enough that SR does not matter, depending on what books the GM allows. IIRC there is a 500 gp item that adds a +5. There is also a metamagic feat that adds to your ability to bypass SR. Then you have feats. There may be other magic items also.
Conjurers everywhere are laughing at you.
Not sure what that has to do with unlimited use, no SR, witch abilities, but you're snark is noted, and not incredibly helpful. I mean we could Schrödinger's wizard all day, but that's not what the OP's question was really about. Seriously, responses like this are one of the reasons i rarely post here.
There are ways to use spells with no SR and be effective, and says to get your SR bonus high enough that SR does not matter, depending on what books the GM allows. IIRC there is a 500 gp item that adds a +5. There is also a metamagic feat that adds to your ability to bypass SR. Then you have feats. There may be other magic items also.
Investing Feat's, Meta-Magic and Wealth to overcome SR is fine. I Don't have an issue with that. Also note that a qualifying statement you made was that it "depends on what books the DM allows". Scaling Save-or-Lose Hex's is a core ability of the witch class, meaning the GM's only way to avoid them is to ban the entire class, or pick and choose what Hex's the player may take (more trouble then its worth).
(I'm very curious what 500gp magic item you are referring to however, could you link that, I'm really curious about it).
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Conjurers everywhere are laughing at you.
Not sure what that has to do with unlimited use, no SR, witch abilities, but you're snark is noted, and not incredibly helpful. I mean we could Schrödinger's wizard all day, but that's not what the OP's question was really about. Seriously, responses like this are one of the reasons i rarely post here.
There are ways to use spells with no SR and be effective, and says to get your SR bonus high enough that SR does not matter, depending on what books the GM allows. IIRC there is a 500 gp item that adds a +5. There is also a metamagic feat that adds to your ability to bypass SR. Then you have feats. There may be other magic items also.Investing Feat's, Meta-Magic and Wealth to overcome SR is fine. I Don't have an issue with that. Also note that a qualifying statement you made was that it "depends on what books the DM allows". Scaling Save-or-Lose Hex's is a core ability of the witch class, meaning the GM's only way to avoid them is to ban the entire class, or pick and choose what Hex's the player may take (more trouble then its worth).
(I'm very curious what 500gp magic item you are referring to however, could you link that, I'm really curious about it).
Wizard with SR:No spells isn't a Schrodinger's Wizard. It's a minimum competence level Wizard. Also, Witch's Hexes are not unlimited. They are limited per target per day. SR:No spells are limited by however many slots you want to burn per target per day. This whole thread is silly. If you don't like Save or Dies, then yes you'll find the Witch boring. But SoD has been part of D&D forever, so you may have problem with the game being boring, not the Witch.
I DONT LIKE PHANTASMAL KILLER!!! I MEAN, IF I FAIL TEH SAVES THEN I JUST DIE! TEH SPELLZ IZ SO BROKENSZZZZ!!!!!
Conjurers everywhere are laughing at you.
Not sure what that has to do with unlimited use, no SR, witch abilities, but you're snark is noted, and not incredibly helpful. I mean we could Schrödinger's wizard all day, but that's not what the OP's question was really about. Seriously, responses like this are one of the reasons i rarely post here.
There are ways to use spells with no SR and be effective, and says to get your SR bonus high enough that SR does not matter, depending on what books the GM allows. IIRC there is a 500 gp item that adds a +5. There is also a metamagic feat that adds to your ability to bypass SR. Then you have feats. There may be other magic items also.Investing Feat's, Meta-Magic and Wealth to overcome SR is fine. I Don't have an issue with that. Also note that a qualifying statement you made was that it "depends on what books the DM allows". Scaling Save-or-Lose Hex's is a core ability of the witch class, meaning the GM's only way to avoid them is to ban the entire class, or pick and choose what Hex's the player may take (more trouble then its worth).
(I'm very curious what 500gp magic item you are referring to however, could you link that, I'm really curious about it).
I think it is one use item. I will get back to you on that.
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SoD often ends fights quickly, and that seems "unfun" to a lot of people. As a PC targeted by SoD I dislike getting wiped out by one bad d20 roll. As a DM I dislike not knowing whether a particular monster is more likely to be a threat or go down before it even moves. As a player on a team with a SoD caster I sometimes feel like we're not really working together, especially if I'm trying to kill the monster with HP damage and the SoD guy is just plugging away hoping for the DM to roll low on a saving throw (or boosting the DC really high and just hoping the DM doesn't roll high)
If the Witch focuses on debuffs and lets the other PCs have a share of the killing that's more fun IMO. This was true even when I played the Witch. The fact that PC had Dazing Spell also brings to mind the idea that feat should be nerfed (offering a new saving throw each round would probably work well). That's kind of off topic as far as Witches go but rather emblematic of the SoD/SoL issue.
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At low level, the duration (number of rounds equal to witch's level) limits its usefulness.
Counter-counter: Cackle extends duration infinitely within 30ft. Plus, Coup de Grace is easy to achieve - takes 1 round to execute, or 2 to move then execute (and its a near guaranteed death).
Second ... the fact that it can be ended by another baddie spending a standard action.
Counter-counter: As long as you have one martial between said baddie and your target, he will generally never attempt to wake that person up - because doing so would draw the dreaded Attack of Opportunity
(not saying it doesn't happen, but with proper battlefield positioning, the downsides of Slumber can be seriously mitigated. Plus...dude's wasting his entire turn just to bring a guy back awake, and that guy won't be able to melee attack anyone - HUGE tactical advantage)
Third, the witch can only zonk a given creature once a day.
Counter-counter: Accursed Hex for a retry. They only need to fail once to generally be boned.
I DONT LIKE PHANTASMAL KILLER!!! I MEAN, IF I FAIL TEH SAVES THEN I JUST DIE! TEH SPELLZ IZ SO BROKENSZZZZ!!!!!
Except for the fact that Phantasmal Killer isn't available at lvl1 onwards. And you can only cast it like...2-5 times a day depending on your level...and there isn't a feat that lets you "redo" the spell if you fail...or a feat that lets you cast it twice per round...and you have to worry about rolling a 1 on your spell penetration...and the DC doesn't scale with your level...And you get a SECOND save against an entirely different category (fort) to avoid the effect...so only characters with really bad will and fort will die...AND the spell can be turned back against you...
Apples to Oranges really.
I DONT LIKE PHANTASMAL KILLER!!! I MEAN, IF I FAIL TEH SAVES THEN I JUST DIE! TEH SPELLZ IZ SO BROKENSZZZZ!!!!!
I'm not sure if this is helpful to the discussion.
But as far as seriously comparing and contrasting slumber with phantasmal killer
While they both can cause instant removal from a combat there are a number of elements that make slumber preferable.
To the credit phantasmal killer, it does actually kill the target. This matters most in combats with multiple creatures as if an enemy is slumbered, another enemy can just take an action to wake them up.
In addition, phantasmal killer can be used multiple times on the same target without taking feats or such. Combined with the fact that it has a good range, it has some advantages over slumber.
But...
Phantasmal killer is a 4th level spell, you are not going to see really before 7th level as opposed to slumber or other various hexes which you may see at 1st level.
Phantasmal killer costs spell slots so, in general, will eventually run out if it is used to open every fight like I have seen witch hexes used.
Phantasmal killer requires two failed saving throws to cause death. Will and Fort saves and there are few creatures that are bad at both. At those levels I believe you are more likely to run into a creature with good Fortitude and Will saves than having a low bonus in both.
Phantasmal killer has spell resistance. In addition to the obvious, the fact that it is a spell (as well as having SR) this means that it is more vulnerable to various protective spells, items, and tactics such as spell resistance, spell turning, spell immunity, ring of counterspell, counterspell, grapple, spell disruption by damage, etc.
Phantasmal killer can backfire. Not even including spell turning even, if you use phantasmal killer against a creature with telepathy, it is likely it will rebound straight back at you. As you go higher levels, telepathy becomes much more common with various evil outsiders (and you can then throw helm of telepathy onto the list of items that help against this spell).
There are spells out there that can compare with slumber depending on the level. Phantasmal killer is a poor comparison.
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I'm not sure if this is helpful to the discussion.But as far as seriously comparing and contrasting slumber with phantasmal killer
While they both can cause instant removal from a combat there are a number of elements that make slumber preferable.
To the credit phantasmal killer, it does actually kill the target. This matters most in combats with multiple creatures as if an enemy is slumbered, another enemy can just take an action to wake them up.
In addition, phantasmal killer can be used multiple times on the same target without taking feats or such. Combined with the fact that it has a good range, it has some advantages over slumber.
But...
Phantasmal killer is a 4th level spell, you are not going to see really before 7th level as opposed to slumber or other various hexes which you may see at 1st level.
Phantasmal killer costs spell slots so, in general, will eventually run out if it is used to open every fight like I have seen witch hexes used.
Phantasmal killer requires two failed saving throws to cause death. Will and Fort saves and there are few creatures that are bad at both. At those levels I believe you are more likely to run into a creature with good Fortitude and Will saves than having a low bonus in both.
Phantasmal killer has spell resistance. In addition to the obvious, the fact that it is a spell (as well as having SR) this means that it is more vulnerable to various protective spells, items, and tactics such as spell resistance, spell turning, spell immunity, ring of counterspell, counterspell, grapple, spell disruption by damage, etc.
Phantasmal killer can backfire. Not even including spell turning even, if you use phantasmal killer against a creature with telepathy, it is likely it will rebound straight back at you. As you go higher levels, telepathy becomes much more common with various evil outsiders (and you can then throw helm of telepathy onto the list of items that help against this spell).
There are spells out there that can compare with slumber depending on the level. Phantasmal killer is a poor comparison.
I have been defending the slumber hex, but this is true.
Phantasmal Killer would not be taken over the slumber hex even if PK was a hex because it requires two saves to work. It is a poor comparison.
Except for the fact that Phantasmal Killer isn't available at lvl1 onwards. And you can only cast it like...2-5 times a day depending on your level...and there isn't a feat that lets you "redo" the spell if you fail...or a feat that lets you cast it twice per round...and you have to worry about rolling a 1 on your spell penetration...and the DC doesn't scale with your level...And you get a SECOND save against an entirely different category (fort) to avoid the effect...so only characters with really bad will and fort will die...AND the spell can be turned back against you...
Apples to Oranges really.
To be be fair:
Feat that lets you "redo" the spell if you fail: Persistent Spell [APG], Bouncing Spell [APG], Echoing Spell [UM]
A feat that lets you cast it twice per round: Quicken Spell
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Except for the fact that Phantasmal Killer isn't available at lvl1 onwards. And you can only cast it like...2-5 times a day depending on your level...and there isn't a feat that lets you "redo" the spell if you fail...or a feat that lets you cast it twice per round...and you have to worry about rolling a 1 on your spell penetration...and the DC doesn't scale with your level...And you get a SECOND save against an entirely different category (fort) to avoid the effect...so only characters with really bad will and fort will die...AND the spell can be turned back against you...
Apples to Oranges really.
To be be fair:
Feat that lets you "redo" the spell if you fail: Persistent Spell [APG], Bouncing Spell [APG], Echoing Spell [UM]
A feat that lets you cast it twice per round: Quicken Spell
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1, can target multiple opponents, a failed save gives a condition that can't be removed by shaking them, lasts an absolutely ridiculous amount of time, suffers from no 1/day/creature limit, can be combined with metamagic feats as Blazej has pointed out above, and oh yeah can be combined with Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection. Best part? A Metamagic Rod of Threnodic Spell (or the feat but I like lesser rod) lets you get around an immune monster group. Eat your heart out Slumber Hex. Edit: Oh ya, almost forgot, there's way more ways to boost the Save DC of a spell versus a Hex.
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Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1, can target multiple opponents, a failed save gives a condition that can't be removed by shaking them, lasts an absolutely ridiculous amount of time, suffers from no 1/day/creature limit, can be combined with metamagic feats as Blazej has pointed out above, and oh yeah can be combined with Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection. Best part? A Metamagic Rod of Threnodic Spell (or the feat but I like lesser rod) lets you get around an immune monster group. Eat your heart out Slumber Hex. Edit: Oh ya, almost forgot, there's way more ways to boost the Save DC of a spell versus a Hex.
Yeah, unfun for lots of the same reasons as slumber hex witchery.
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Yeah, unfun for lots of the same reasons as slumber hex witchery.
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1, can target multiple opponents, a failed save gives a condition that can't be removed by shaking them, lasts an absolutely ridiculous amount of time, suffers from no 1/day/creature limit, can be combined with metamagic feats as Blazej has pointed out above, and oh yeah can be combined with Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection. Best part? A Metamagic Rod of Threnodic Spell (or the feat but I like lesser rod) lets you get around an immune monster group. Eat your heart out Slumber Hex. Edit: Oh ya, almost forgot, there's way more ways to boost the Save DC of a spell versus a Hex.
It's actually only from level 2 for the Oracle.
Also, this is another build I've actually had in my games with no meaningful problems. Way fewer than the straight-up Illusionist Wizard played by the same guy in another game, anyway.
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Yeah, unfun for lots of the same reasons as slumber hex witchery.
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1, can target multiple opponents, a failed save gives a condition that can't be removed by shaking them, lasts an absolutely ridiculous amount of time, suffers from no 1/day/creature limit, can be combined with metamagic feats as Blazej has pointed out above, and oh yeah can be combined with Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection. Best part? A Metamagic Rod of Threnodic Spell (or the feat but I like lesser rod) lets you get around an immune monster group. Eat your heart out Slumber Hex. Edit: Oh ya, almost forgot, there's way more ways to boost the Save DC of a spell versus a Hex.
It's actually only from level 2 for the Oracle.
Also, this is another build I've actually had in my games with no meaningful problems. Way fewer than the straight-up Illusionist Wizard played by the same guy in another game, anyway.
Truth. Level 2 onwards it is. Honestly Save or Dies exist at all level of gameplay. They are a very integrated part of the game. Saying one class is boring for using such an integrated part of the game, makes me wonder if the "SoD is boring crowd" might not be better served with a different game.
Truth. Level 2 onwards it is. Honestly Save or Dies exist at all level of gameplay. They are a very integrated part of the game. Saying one class is boring for using such an integrated part of the game, makes me wonder if the "SoD is boring crowd" might not be better served with a different game.
Eh, I doubt it. That "crowd" here is posting in a Pathfinder RPG game thread after all and saying they find this discrete game mechanic not to their liking but not saying the overall game is not to their liking or how a different game is better for them. Presumably this crowd enjoys playing the pathfinder RPG overall despite not liking SoD mechanics.
SoD effects are discrete elements of the game that are easily minimized in even a RAW pathfinder game based on player and DM choices from among the vast multitude of options available. Pathfinder and D20 games, like AD&D before them, are easy to tweak or house rule to taste for enjoyment.
I just have to ask all of you who say that you just have to have someone spend an action to wake up the one sleeping:
Why are you telling that it's just one action? It's one standard action from someone who isn't sleeping (which may or may not provoke, the rules are unclear), then the one who was sleeping needs to spend a move action (that provokes) in order to stand up and if he's humanoid he will probably will spend another move action that provokes in order to pick up his weapon.
How are the above only one action? (not to mention the fact that this "solution" hinges on the fact that there is a minion still alive)
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I just have to ask all of you who say that you just have to have someone spend an action to wake up the one sleeping:
Why are you telling that it's just one action? It's one standard action from someone who isn't sleeping (which may or may not provoke, the rules are unclear), then the one who was sleeping needs to spend a move action (that provokes) in order to stand up and if he's humanoid he will probably will spend another move action that provokes in order to pick up his weapon.How are the above only one action? (not to mention the fact that this "solution" hinges on the fact that there is a minion still alive)
Sure. But it's only one action from someone other than Mr. Sleepy. And a lot of that assumes Mr. Sleepy is in melee...which might or might not be the case. Slumber is certainly a good trick, and better if coordinated with melee guys, and the action exchange is definitely in your favor. What's it's not is an insta-win button.
And things don't provoke unless they say they do.
Truth. Level 2 onwards it is. Honestly Save or Dies exist at all level of gameplay. They are a very integrated part of the game. Saying one class is boring for using such an integrated part of the game, makes me wonder if the "SoD is boring crowd" might not be better served with a different game.
Eh, I doubt it. That "crowd" here is posting in a Pathfinder RPG game thread after all and saying they find this discrete game mechanic not to their liking but not saying the overall game is not to their liking or how a different game is better for them. Presumably this crowd enjoys playing the pathfinder RPG overall despite not liking SoD mechanics.
SoD effects are discrete elements of the game that are easily minimized in even a RAW pathfinder game based on player and DM choices from among the vast multitude of options available. Pathfinder and D20 games, like AD&D before them, are easy to tweak or house rule to taste for enjoyment.
That's fine, but I suspect this crowd is the one that will also complain when someone's AC is to high. Different effects exist to target different defenses and taking one of them out of the equation creates a vastly different game.
I just have to ask all of you who say that you just have to have someone spend an action to wake up the one sleeping:
Why are you telling that it's just one action? It's one standard action from someone who isn't sleeping (which may or may not provoke, the rules are unclear), then the one who was sleeping needs to spend a move action (that provokes) in order to stand up and if he's humanoid he will probably will spend another move action that provokes in order to pick up his weapon.How are the above only one action? (not to mention the fact that this "solution" hinges on the fact that there is a minion still alive)
It is still one action to wake them up. Anything else depends on the target who may not even use manufactured weapons, and they may be a caster with no need to pick a weapon up.
If all the backup is dead then the fight is in the mop up stages so sleep just saved you time IRL and in the game.
I have had witches at my table as a GM, but I also started to use a lot less single creature encounters before the witch class was even created. Typically the witch uses slumber no more than a caster would use a high level spell during an adventure day. I can't speak for other people.
A feat that lets you cast it twice per round: Quicken Spell
Split Hex casts a Hex as part of the same action, even Quicken Spell can't do that (even though you can get two off). Though, if you don't use lots of Swift actions its all good.
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1-
Now, I'm going to stop you right there. Color Spray is an absolutely boss spell - but only for your first 4 levels. This spell's power crashes with each level up (as opposed to...well any other spell I can think of, which gets better not worse).
Much easier to say things are broken when you are not playing them correctly.
I will deliver this great news to my gaming table at once! Too bad we're 7th so it really doesn't matter all that much, 7 rounds of sleeping is a pretty steep penalty.
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1-Now, I'm going to stop you right there. Color Spray is an absolutely boss spell - but only for your first 4 levels. This spell's power crashes with each level up (as opposed to...well any other spell I can think of, which gets better not worse).
In the interests of fairness I'm going to point out that he was likely referring to a heaven's oracle with this revelation.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
Which keeps color spray in the game much... MUCH longer than it normally would be.
Just pointing it out.
- Torger
P.S. Incidentally my take on the original topic is that witches are super fun, slumber is super unfun.
Now, I'm going to stop you right there. Color Spray is an absolutely boss spell - but only for your first 4 levels. This spell's power crashes with each level up (as opposed to...well any other spell I can think of, which gets better not worse).
Also to be fair, Heavens Oracle with Color Spray is totally available from level 1-
Are you thinking of sleep? Sleep is the spell with the 4 HD. Certainly as the game progresses, color sprays save DC becomes incredibly easy for any character to beat. However, no matter how many hit dice you have, as long as you aren't immune to patterns or mind-effecting abilities, you can always be stunned by Color Spray.
And C'mon, no spell crashes in usefulness like sleep does.
DRS3: So, all I have to do as a GM so as not to have to radically change EVERY. SINGLE. COMBAT. is to ban the witch? Done.
I would also like to mention, to people above, that Quicken Spell adds FOUR levels to the spell. With some feats, this can be mitigated a little, but it's still something that shoves any such spell immediately into mid-level adventuring. Same with the other metamagic feats, they really push things to a level where it isn't as much of a problem.
I just have to ask all of you who say that you just have to have someone spend an action to wake up the one sleeping:
Why are you telling that it's just one action? It's one standard action from someone who isn't sleeping (which may or may not provoke, the rules are unclear), then the one who was sleeping needs to spend a move action (that provokes) in order to stand up and if he's humanoid he will probably will spend another move action that provokes in order to pick up his weapon.How are the above only one action? (not to mention the fact that this "solution" hinges on the fact that there is a minion still alive)
It is only one action to remove the "sleeping" effect and thus keep the enemy from CDGing the target.
DRS3: So, all I have to do as a GM so as not to have to radically change EVERY. SINGLE. COMBAT. is to ban the witch? Done.
I would also like to mention, to people above, that Quicken Spell adds FOUR levels to the spell. With some feats, this can be mitigated a little, but it's still something that shoves any such spell immediately into mid-level adventuring. Same with the other metamagic feats, they really push things to a level where it isn't as much of a problem.
Or you just, politely, ask your players not to take the slumber hex. It works. My GM did that, I left it out and I do not think we had any problems. If any her rimed frost falls and ice storms were more likely to decide fights early than her hexes, misfortune included.
@Anzyr - Your attitude about people who don't like SoD comes off a little like "Love it or Leave it!" Anyhow, I'm not sure why you'd assume that people who dislike SoD are the same people who dislike high AC. In fact, I'm a rather cautious player and really like having a high AC as a PC. When dealing with high AC as a DM I tend to focus a little more on monsters which like the Vital Strike chain and maybe Strong Jaw. Sure, I might need a nat 20 to hit, but if I hit they're going to yowl. That might not sound effective, but "The Great White Whale" which bit for something like 24d6+LOTS really had the AC 40+ PCs scared for a session or so. Of course stuff with saving throws can be great too, but I prefer stuff which doesn't kill PCs outright on a nat 1.
@Umbranus - I think that if you've asked somebody not to use an option because it isn't fun for your group that tends to confirm rather than deny that it might be a troubled ability. Sure, there are plenty of groups, and Slumber is fine for some. Continued threads like this one seem to show that it disrupts others though.
My problem isn't slumber (though elves and undead as opponents would get sort of boring) but misfortune. I let the player switch to a synthesist summoner and it is working far better.
@Umbranus - I think that if you've asked somebody not to use an option because it isn't fun for your group that tends to confirm rather than deny that it might be a troubled ability. Sure, there are plenty of groups, and Slumber is fine for some. Continued threads like this one seem to show that it disrupts others though.
True, but there is a difference between 1: There is one optional ability which has a problem. And 2: The class as a whole has to be banned.
And I will never get how any group can allow any form of summoner and ban the witch. But YMMV. Have fun.
As I said, it works far better. The issue with the witch was never the power, but the boredom.
This discussion reminds me of one I had about the Channel - Fireball combo in MtG. It was a widespread tactic, so you had to put in a lot of stuff in your deck if you wanted to deal with it. And, of course, if you dealt with it, your opponent conceded. It was a borefest and dragged the game down. So, it was a common area of debate. And if you told people that channel was too powerful and should be banned, they quickly tried to minimize the damage by claiming fireball was the real problem. Of course, saying this, they knew there was a perfectly fine replacement for fireball (disintegrate), but without channel, they couldn't keep any part of their combo. Anyway, time passed, and channel, not fireball, got restricted. Their decks stopped working, and the game became far healthier again.
The problem isn't the specific hex, but that the hex mechanic itself is poorly thought out and makes for a poorer game. As was said above, unless the GM rewrites all the creatures in the game to have better will saves or replaces them with immune creatures, it is the GM's fault, not the witch class'. For some reason, it is very important to some people that it is never the fault of the witch. And even if slumber may be a problem, that is no reason to ban anything else that can replace slumber...
I wasn't suggesting banning the Witch. Actually what I always suggest in regards to Slumber is a nerf to coup de grace. That's something I doubt most folks would agree to, perhaps because for some reason not being able to kill a sleeping foe with a >95% success rate breaks their suspension of disbelief more than the many other unrealistic aspects of the game.
Considering the Master Summoner I might describe the eidolon as "one optional ability" too. The DM could always ask the player to not summon multiple monsters, not make the eidolon's AC too high or attacks too effective, etc (whatever bothers you about Summoners). Asking the player not to go too far is always an option. People just can't often agree where the boundary of "too far" is (though I suspect it is generally closer to SoD and touch attacks than Fighters hitting things with full attacks)
@DRS3
Am i wrong to assume that you don't DM pathfinder APs and modules?
The problem isn't the specific hex, but that the hex mechanic itself is poorly thought out and makes for a poorer game. As was said above, unless the GM rewrites all the creatures in the game to have better will saves or replaces them with immune creatures, it is the GM's fault, not the witch class'. For some reason, it is very important to some people that it is never the fault of the witch. And even if slumber may be a problem, that is no reason to ban anything else that can replace slumber...
I agree, there are also the frozen tomb (which needs some serious FAQ and/or errata since it's very vague) and agony (to use against those pesky spellcasters) that do the same thing as slumber (although there are both major hexes which means that they will be a problem much later in the campaign), in fact i am not sure it's only the hex mechanic's fault, it's partly the spell list's fault, if it wasn't so weak for a 9th level arcane caster then there might be fewer people that focused on hexes.
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DRS3: So, all I have to do as a GM so as not to have to radically change EVERY. SINGLE. COMBAT. is to ban the witch? Done.
I would also like to mention, to people above, that Quicken Spell adds FOUR levels to the spell. With some feats, this can be mitigated a little, but it's still something that shoves any such spell immediately into mid-level adventuring. Same with the other metamagic feats, they really push things to a level where it isn't as much of a problem.
Lesser Rod of Quickening.... BAM!
Or Spell perfection... either or.
On another note:
How is the Witch's slumber hex any worse than say, an Enchantment Focused Sorcerer that dumped everything into Dominate Person? Dominate Person is even more deadly than SLumber (dominated creatures can attack his buddies), has a longer duration, and has even less weaknesses than slumber (Meta-Magic can help vs undead things). Additionally, you can ramp up the DC of Dominate to easily dominate even strong-willed creatures. And before you pull the 'Well the sorcerer needed to use resources to make his dominate good" I am just going to say that is irrelevent. We are not talking about over all strength of builds here. We are speaking about the effects on gameplay itself. Dominate Person is a SoS spell. Much like how Slumber is a SoS Su. The effect on gameplay and "Fun" will end up being the same:
GM: Ok So you run into a storm giant who look angry and is charging towards you.
Sorc: Ok I cast Dominate Person
GM: Ok What is the DC?
Sorc: 36...
GM: *Facepalm* Ok it fails..
Party: Well... that ended pretty quickly...
Honestly, I feel like most people's problems seem to be SoS in general.... because many of the complaints of Witch's "stealing fun" I have seen ALMOST WORD FOR WORD in any thread regarding Heavens Oracles...