While I do think Slumber Hex is too powerful, I have to question why people think it's boring. Using a hex over and over is just like using a weapon over and over, except that you get to feel like a spellcaster instead of being the Wizard with a crossbow.
I think you just answered your own question.
Slumber hex has the same issue as any SoD spell: if the monsters make the save, it does nothing, if they fail the safe, then it makes combat way easier. Slumber hex if an NPC makes the save, the witch's player can't try to slumber hex that same NPC again unless they have the Accursed Hex feat. However a 6th level enchanter can fill their 3rd level spells with Hold Person and just spam it repeatedly instead.
Slumber hex comes down to the fact that it might work on one monster per round per encounter; if the party faces 5 npc's, that's a minimum of 5 rounds to effect all of them, and during that time the rest of the party will be engaging those monsters with melee/bows/spells.
In the case of single monster encounters and/or BBEG fights, how is slumber hex any more boring than a barbarian opening combat with a crit on a x4 weapon and ending the encounter in the first round? Because a natural 20 on the first round of combat happens less often? Is it better because the player rolled a natural 20 and everyone knows it happened, as opposed to the DM making a concealed roll behind the screen and saying "the BBEG is falls to the ground in sleep, very nicely done!" ?
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The biggest problem with the hex system is that not only are their some hexes that are incredibly good but a lot of the other options are just plain terrible. Healing hex just doesn't even come close to competing for healing in any capacity, the fly hex does not scale well, the claws hex is so bad that it's better to just play a changeling to get claws than just take a thematic hex, and the list goes on and on. This sort of options set up just causes more players to trend towards those few broken hexes and there to be less diversity in various builds since what exists outside of those few great hexes could easily leave you completely useless and either strewn across the floor or just cheering your team on.
Now in the last year or so we have started to get more hexes that fall somewhere in the middle to make picking up some different options more viable (swamps grasp is pretty cool and potentially useful and cursed wound might have some use in the right game) but we are still a long way out.
Torchlyte the reason I and possibly others say Slumber is a boring option is simple:
Boring=rolling no dice, like with Slumber.
Fun=rolling lots of dice (d20s to hit, plus damage), like with a pouncing barbarian.
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I've played in the same group as a dedicated Slumber Witch and never had a problem. Nor did anyone else. You know why? Four things:
#1: Slumber is very nice...but vs. more than one opponent, it's an action reducer, not an 'I Win' button...or at least not without very convenient initiative rolls and a guy to do the coup-de-grace. And no fight should ever be vs. only one opponent. Ever. Because action economy is a very definite thing.
#2: Setting up a sure-fire Slumber combo (Evil Eye + Misfortune + Slumber) takes three rounds to do on one opponent. Taking three rounds to completely remove an opponent is solid, but hardly broken.
#3: Witches are excellent vs. single opponents...not so much vs, groups. A swath of minions and the Witch is suddenly a lot less handy. This is true of their spell list as well as their Hexes for the most part.
#4: Debuffs like Misfortune or Evil Eye are solid...but nice as they are, with the exception of giant single monsters (which, again I'll note, are a bad idea already due to action economy) they're usually a solid but not really entirely optimal thing to do to one of your opponents. Now the fewer opponents available, the nicer they are...but then there's the temptation to just use Slumber. And the Witch probably only gets a couple of turns of debuffing anyway due to how quick combats vs. small numbers of foes go.
There's also the fact that only Misfortune isn't Mind Effecting of the low-level Witch stuff, and that high Will Saves tend to screw low-level Witches completely...and even high level ones are restricted to Ice Tomb by them (which, like Slumber, can probably be countered by spending an action by most foes by the time it comes up).
And all that assumes they aren't using their spells of course...but while the witch list is solid, it has a lot of the same weaknesses as their Hexes, and costs spell slots to boot.
The simple fact is that Witches are effective, and can go on being so offensively all day long...but just like people bring up in Fighter threads, that's not really much of an advantage since when people run out of spells, you stop for the day. A party with only a Witch and non-spellcasters would certainly have amazing endurance if built right and willing to burn through Wands of CLW like candy...but barring that situation, it's just not that big an advantage.
By that logic, most spells are boring - why single out Witches?Boring=rolling no dice, like with Slumber.
Fun=rolling lots of dice (d20s to hit, plus damage), like with a pouncing barbarian.
Generally, when playing a spellcaster you plan your usage of spells quite carefully; you have a variety of spells to cast, many having their own mechanics or best situation to use them in; most of them involve rolling at least one die. This results in the player having to pay carefull attention to the way combat is going.
Compare this to a basic slumber witch: 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Next round, what do you do? 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Repeat. The result is the player might as well say 'wake me up when the combat finishes.'
That is my logic. If you personally don't find that sort of combat boring, then fine. I only speak for myself.
Having played a witch, they become much more interesting if you avoid using slumber as much as possible. I don't think slumber is overpowered, but it does mean the GM has to plan for it.
Having played a witch, they become much more interesting if you avoid using slumber as much as possible. I don't think slumber is overpowered, but it does mean the GM has to plan for it.If the GM has to plan for it, it might be overpowered. If it crowds out alternative actions, it is overpowered. Slumber hex satisfies both of these.
By that logic over half the game is OP.
A dedicated DPR type can two round most monsters, so I would have to account for that. Someone debuffing the bad guys into near uselessness is something to account for. The list goes on.
However another way to look at this is that if one trick ruins all of a GM's encounters he might need more variety.
I'm not terribly fond of the witch, specifically the save-or-die hexes at the disposal. I've run two full campaigns with a witch. One used slumber throughout and another used ice tomb for the latter half under some conditions. Unlike a wizard, the hexes just don't go away meaning that they are generally the first shot fired of every combat.
Whenever it succeeded it just felt boring. Generally it meant that I didn't get to see the rest party to do anything to fight that enemy and wasn't able to do anything with the creature as well. In party vs. one creature fights, it is horrible as a decent number of those fights can be described as such: roll for initiative, witch uses slumber, fight ends.
For the witch with ice tomb, it was taken under the condition that the player himself used self restraint to use it on individuals unimportant creatures rather than target any creatures of note with it. On one occasion he accidentally targeted a high level enemy NPC with an interesting set of spells/feats/etc. It didn't matter what any of those spells/feats/class levels/backstory/anything were because she failed the Fortitude save. The player wasn't even aware that he had even casually taken out anything of note until we idly chatted about after the battle. I was fine with that one time. If he used it on every single thing like that, I would have told him to replace it just how I told him I was barring the slumber hex. He was fine with both conditions which is one of the reasons why I think this campaign with a witch was as fun as it was. There was never the consistent ongoing threat of him taking out a major villain on first turn.
This could be true for any class though. However for witch, with these hexes, it is much much more common. I'm currently playing in a game that includes an oracle that has chosen multiple abilities that allows him to use color spray as an effect shutdown spell even at 8th level. Even so, he is using color spray less than I ever see a witch use slumber.
I'm now playing in a game with another witch player. Her first hex known is slumber. After a few sessions I don't know any other spells she can cast. That by itself is fine, but when it comes time to fight the BBEG I would like to do things in that battle. If she uses slumber there, at there is anywhere from a 50% chance the battle will end in the first round without me taking a single action.
For me, that is just boring.
More variety to fix the misfortune hex? Sure.
GM: "You are attacked by a..."
Witch: "I misfortune whatever it is."
GM: "It fails."
Other party member: "I cast, uhh... my next save or suck."
GM: "It fails."
Someone else: "I coup it."
GM: "It dies."
Witch: "Yay! We won again!"
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most of them involve rolling at least one die. This results in the player having to pay carefull attention to the way combat is going.Rolling a die does not make an option require additional attention to the rest of the combat. Furthermore, I would contest the claim that most Wizard spells require the player to roll a die.
Compare this to a basic slumber witch: 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Next round, what do you do? 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Repeat. The result is the player might as well say 'wake me up when the combat finishes.'You could replace slumber hex with a fighter's sword and have the same complaint. It's not repetition that is the problem.
That is my logic. If you personally don't find that sort of combat boring, then fine. I only speak for myself.I wouldn't find it boring if it was a balanced option.
Having played a witch, they become much more interesting if you avoid using slumber as much as possible. I don't think slumber is overpowered, but it does mean the GM has to plan for it.If the GM has to plan for it, it might be overpowered. If it crowds out alternative actions, it is overpowered. Slumber hex satisfies both of these.
Torchlyte, you seem to be convinced of your own opinion; that's fine. I'm often convinced that I'm right too, whether I actually am or not.
I will add one last set of remarks before stopping:
a) read the rest of my sentence about how and why most spellcasters are interesting to play, not just be fixated on the last part of that sentence.
b)a fighter swinging a sword generally does more than just announce 'I swing my sword', he sometimes has to move, make AoOs, and yes, roll some dice. He needs to be tactically more aware, rather than just lurk at the back making his announcement. Even archers have to pay more attention than a slumber witch.
c) if you think something being 'balanced' would make it less boring, then good for you. Without it being more interesting to use, I'd still think it boring.
d) if a GM doesn't plan any encounters to take into account the parties capabilities, then I think it would be a very strange game. Which is better, an encounter that is tailored to the party (some aspects where the party can shine, some where they have to work hard), or one where the party can either trounce the opposition or die/run away? (A bit of a straw man agrument, I know. But that's the way your suggestion that GMs shouldn't need to plan encounters comes across.)
And some last questions for you: Have you played a witch? And do you regularly GM? It doesn't sound to me like you have done either.
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People keep mentioning the unlimited number on the sleep hex vs the limit on spells, but most of the time there are not that many fights in an adventuring day. Also with spells you can force them to roll several times, and get the DC just as high as a slumber hex. The path is a different, but the result is still more SoD per days than you really need.
Spells also can be fired off from more than 30 feet away, and they don't have a 1/day clause built into them.
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I wonder what the people here think of Bad Touch Cleric using Chaos (especially Protean) and Madness domains. Those guys are basically kings of debuff and don't even allow saves to shake the effect off.
I mean, at lvl 10 Madness can give your target +5 to all skills at the cost of -5 to all saves and attacks.
EDIT: I sort of agree on Slumber, but one save against it fixes it with the 1/day/target limit. Then again there are plenty of opponents at all levels that are immune to it, like vermin.
I think there's an ability which allows you to reuse 1/day hexes against an opponent who made the saving throw. Anyhow, like I said before, if you remove the save or die from Coup de Grace then Slumber and a bunch of other methods to make creatures asleep or helpless calm down and become less disruptive. The big monster getting critted by the party Barbarian with a greataxe is still enough to change most fights, but at least it doesn't necessarily end them immediately.
By that logic, most spells are boring - why single out Witches?Boring=rolling no dice, like with Slumber.
Fun=rolling lots of dice (d20s to hit, plus damage), like with a pouncing barbarian.Generally, when playing a spellcaster you plan your usage of spells quite carefully; you have a variety of spells to cast, many having their own mechanics or best situation to use them in; most of them involve rolling at least one die. This results in the player having to pay carefull attention to the way combat is going.
Compare this to a basic slumber witch: 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Next round, what do you do? 'I use slumber on the best target this round'. Repeat. The result is the player might as well say 'wake me up when the combat finishes.'
That is my logic. If you personally don't find that sort of combat boring, then fine. I only speak for myself.
Having played a witch, they become much more interesting if you avoid using slumber as much as possible. I don't think slumber is overpowered, but it does mean the GM has to plan for it.
You really don't know how ot play a witch then...
If you do nothing but spam Slumber with no preparation or staging, then your going to be mediocre at best...
Slumber gets rediculous when combined with the Unholy Trio (Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle), but that has a few certain weaknesses:
1) Takes 3 rounds to pull off
2) The witch is not Moving or is not casting. In order for the sure-fire ability to work, the witch has to spam Cackle, which kind of roots her in place.
Additionally, there are many creatures immune to slumber. Namely: Elves, Undead, Constructs, mindless creatures.
To truly maximize your abilities as a witch, you need to utilize the unholy trio with your spell list as well. The Witch has a plethora of powerful debuff spells to completely debilitate the opponent. This ensures that the martials can kill the opponent without much injury, which is the goal.
Additionally, as per the OPs own statement, their witch wastes her spell slots on healing spells. A witch should RARELY be wasting her spell slots on Cure spells... they are never worth it for the witch. Especially with so many good spells at each level.
Save or die effects are generally unfun.
Slumber is a big one, a supernatural SoD equivalent to highest level spell useable once per monster targeting will saves. It is limited by mind affecting and that it is a sleep effect.
After seeing it in action after DMing Reign of Winter for a while I asked the hex magus in the party to switch it out. The encounters were generally more fun after that IMO.
APs have a lot of not strong will foes and a lot of solo encounters which is not a good combo for decent encounters if there is a slumber hex in action.
I wonder what the people here think of Bad Touch Cleric using Chaos (especially Protean) and Madness domains. Those guys are basically kings of debuff and don't even allow saves to shake the effect off.
I mean, at lvl 10 Madness can give your target +5 to all skills at the cost of -5 to all saves and attacks.
Pondering this answer and Wraithstrike's, I wonder if the true culprit here is the fact that Slumber Hex is such an easy choice. High DPR is just as good as Save-or-die when you look at the end result, but you don't have to be an optimizer to take Slumber Hex and be nearly as effective.
Put another way, Slumber is fine in an optimized world but amongst lesser PC's it's a standout that someone could pick up without even trying.
I think that is part of it. People feel like the results are too easy to get.
My houserule for slumber hex is probably going to be that it only works on enemies with a number of hit dice equal to your caster level or less. Either that, or enemies with higher hit dice get a bonus to the saving throw.
I might do something simmilar with ice tomb, and I might ban cackle or change it to a standard action....
Pretty interesting discussion going on, generally it seems more than not that people have problems with the Witch. Of those with problems the specific problem case is usually slumber, though that's just a specific case of - again - the Witch being SoD mainly.
Those who don't have a problem usually cite that the Witch is good vs single targets instead of groups: which is true, but I don't really find that especially problematic for the witch, since dropping or otherwise debilitating one creature a round is way more powerful than a full attack from any martial - even depriving 1 or 2 creatures 1+ round of actions to deal with Slumber is huge.
In the case of single monster encounters and/or BBEG fights, how is slumber hex any more boring than a barbarian opening combat with a crit on a x4 weapon and ending the encounter in the first round? Because a natural 20 on the first round of combat happens less often? Is it better because the player rolled a natural 20 and everyone knows it happened, as opposed to the DM making a concealed roll behind the screen and saying "the BBEG is falls to the ground in sleep, very nicely done!" ?
Well...yeah? You can't go into combat expecting to crit. Especially when the chance of doing it is so much smaller. At least with a knowledge check you can expect high/low will saves.
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Pretty interesting discussion going on, generally it seems more than not that people have problems with the Witch. Of those with problems the specific problem case is usually slumber, though that's just a specific case of - again - the Witch being SoD mainly.
I feel that the problem is a mix of a lot of things, mostly of them not exclusive of the witch, but exacerbated in that class. One of the problems is that the hex are supernatural powers so a lot of the normal defences don't work:
- they don't provoke;- SR don't work;
- even if someone readied an action to interrupt the witch she can still use the hex if she is still alive (and if a single attack is enough to kill her there is no reason to take a ready action).
Too often the description of a hex is not clear enough about what is the kind of power it is using so it is difficult to say who is immune and who isn't. It is mind affecting? A form of paralysis? It affect objects? and so on.
Those questions often don't find a reply in the hex description (look the Ice tomb hex FAQ for a good example of missing informations).
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I played a witch, with 2 bard levels early on, all the way through S&S. She became the Hurricane Queen, and was the most fun character I've played, except for my first ever character 25 odd years ago. Yes Slumber felt boring, and as a result I didn't use it much, but that was my choice. Never took Ice Tomb hex. Misfotrune/ill omen were great and didn't seem to ruin the game for us. The rest of the party/crew was more worried about her constant use of blood transcription.
Make that very worried about her constant use of blood transcription.
DBH
See, I feel people's main issue with the witch is less Slumber hex but more the unholy trio as I call it.
The reason slumber hex is always targeted is because it has the most obvious effect. Small Debuffs tend to not get attention because they, in and of themselves, do not attract much attention.
For instance, try and play Slumber hex everywhere without doing the whole Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle combo. I guarentee that you will find it much less and issue (assuming the GM isn't just throwing Orcs at ya). With the unholy trio you can really drop just about anything for the most part...
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I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
I haven't played a witch very far, but the class oozes flavor. The spell list alone makes it feel very different from a regular wizard, and the hexes are pretty damn fun. There is so much roleplaying potential with the class I fell in love with it right away.
However, even being new to Pathfinder, I steered clear of the slumber hex. It seemed like it could be too strong to be able to attempt to use it on every single enemy. I decided it didn't fit with my character concept and went with Healing Hex and Flight, which are really, really cool.
My only gripe with the class is that it needs more archetypes. The archetypes it has now seem uninspired and weak (and the Scarred Witch Doctor seems cheesy). I think the witch needs more class features to trade for more variation.
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I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
Specific trumps general... Read the descriptions of the hexes, several of them specifically state that you have to speak an incantation or cackle. While supernatural abilities don't normally require you to speak or make gestures, many hexes do.
If you are going to houserule a weakness, specify that the hexes need speech or a gesture (pointing is good). This will keep them more useful than spells but still make them defeated by some of the things that affect spells.
See, I feel people's main issue with the witch is less Slumber hex but more the unholy trio as I call it.
The reason slumber hex is always targeted is because it has the most obvious effect. Small Debuffs tend to not get attention because they, in and of themselves, do not attract much attention.
For instance, try and play Slumber hex everywhere without doing the whole Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle combo. I guarentee that you will find it much less and issue (assuming the GM isn't just throwing Orcs at ya). With the unholy trio you can really drop just about anything for the most part...
Reign of Winter: lots of warrior soldiers, lots of winter wolves, lots of ice trolls, lots of frost giants. Decent shot at dropping one a round of these with slumber hex straight up.
Debuffing is strong but takes a couple rounds or combo with others while slumber hex goes straight in with a very good 1/target SoD. debuffing can significantly depower a boss which will have an effect on the perceived challenge but slumber knocks enemies out quickly with one shot which has more of an unfun effect IMO.
See, I feel people's main issue with the witch is less Slumber hex but more the unholy trio as I call it.
The reason slumber hex is always targeted is because it has the most obvious effect. Small Debuffs tend to not get attention because they, in and of themselves, do not attract much attention.
For instance, try and play Slumber hex everywhere without doing the whole Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle combo. I guarentee that you will find it much less and issue (assuming the GM isn't just throwing Orcs at ya). With the unholy trio you can really drop just about anything for the most part...
Reign of Winter: lots of warrior soldiers, lots of winter wolves, lots of ice trolls, lots of frost giants. Decent shot at dropping one a round of these with slumber hex straight up.
Debuffing is strong but takes a couple rounds or combo with others while slumber hex goes straight in with a very good 1/target SoD. debuffing can significantly depower a boss which will have an effect on the perceived challenge but slumber knocks enemies out quickly with one shot which has more of an unfun effect IMO.
Ok so you picked the ONE ADVENTURE full of creatures with poor will saves. Congrats. You could just as easily say a bard with Charm person could dominate the game as well. That is a problem with the AP more than anything. If EVERYTHING has piss poor will saves then ANY SoS would have the same effect...
I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
SLA dont require hand moving. Casting defensively makes it a non issue, and bypassing SR can be really easy if a player really wants to go that route.
If your players are good with building the problems you have might be delayed, but they won't be stopped. I am not saying don't change the rules for your game. I am just saying don't be surprised when you run into them again at later levels.
Ok so you picked the ONE ADVENTURE full of creatures with poor will saves. Congrats. You could just as easily say a bard with Charm person could dominate the game as well. That is a problem with the AP more than anything. If EVERYTHING has piss poor will saves then ANY SoS would have the same effect...Reign of Winter: lots of warrior soldiers, lots of winter wolves, lots of ice trolls, lots of frost giants. Decent shot at dropping one a round of these with slumber hex straight up.
Debuffing is strong but takes a couple rounds or combo with others while slumber hex goes straight in with a very good 1/target SoD. debuffing can significantly depower a boss which will have an effect on the perceived challenge but slumber knocks enemies out quickly with one shot which has more of an unfun effect IMO.
Its the only Adventure Path I've run so far. Its a fantastic AP IMO and been fun with my PCs not focusing on SoD. Tough warrior/brute types are fun encounters if not trivially SoD'd with frequency IME. So yay for our group with Reign of Winter . . .
Yes, all SoD are generally unfun IMO. Slumber exacerbates the issue by making it equivalent to a top tier spell and useable at will against every foe you come across without running out.
Also...rarely are the things in question all alone. So their friend can wake them up with an action.
And that's only the first couple of chapters of the AP and way less true thereafter.
Check the 'why are there so many solos' in APs thread
The following is simply my opinion, The problem with Hex's (As I see it, both as a player with a Witch in the Party, as well as a DM with a Witch in his game) is actually three-fold.
All Hex's are (Su): This one makes me want to scream. Hex's that replicate spell effects, or directly apply effects to a Target (Slumber, Ice Tomb, Retribution) should be Spell Like Abilities. A large number of classic monsters depend on Spell Resistance to keep them from being push-overs.
Hex's Are Unlimited Use: Why the total number of Hex uses per day couldn't have been limited to 3+Int like nearly every other class ability is beyond me (you could even have made Hex's like Healing state that they do not count as a daily use and instead keep the per-person-per day restriction).
Many Hex's are poorly worded: This has been touched on before.
These combined make a "Save or Suck" Witch even more problematic then a classic "Save or Suck" Wizard.
So, yea, chalk me up for Unfun I guess. Same holds true for any save-or-suck build, but with Hex's taking so many tools out of the DM's tool box it's just to much.
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I'm currently playing a witch in a friend's homebrew campaign - even with the dreaded slumber hex - and enjoying it immensely. I haven't tried it in an AP yet, but his world is teeming with outsiders (gods fell to earth sorta setting) and so there are excellent saves galore.
For me, when I use the slumber hex I usually do it for role-play purposes or I wait until we're fighting a number of enemies or use it to save the rogue's bacon. I think it's been used in role-play far more than actual combat, but in fairness that could be because we do RP heavy campaigns with some combat thrown in for flavor.
Slumber Hex probably is overpowered if I'm speaking truthfully, but it can be quite fun and flavorful as long as you use it judiciously.
Something I just want to touch on. Witches can wreck huge encounters before there's even a roll for initiative.
If enemies are spread out, say - guards on a wall, with no or limited vision on each other, a Witch can hex guards over and over until half or more of the whole encounter has been slept/couped(or tied up) with none the wiser.
Something I just want to touch on. Witches can wreck huge encounters before there's even a roll for initiative.
If enemies are spread out, say - guards on a wall, with no or limited vision on each other, a Witch can hex guards over and over until half or more of the whole encounter has been slept/couped(or tied up) with none the wiser.
Most witches dont specialize in stealth, and guards with no vision to each other is already a doomed encounter.
That is not a witch specialty.|
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Ok so you picked the ONE ADVENTURE full of creatures with poor will saves. Congrats. You could just as easily say a bard with Charm person could dominate the game as well. That is a problem with the AP more than anything. If EVERYTHING has piss poor will saves then ANY SoS would have the same effect...See, I feel people's main issue with the witch is less Slumber hex but more the unholy trio as I call it.
The reason slumber hex is always targeted is because it has the most obvious effect. Small Debuffs tend to not get attention because they, in and of themselves, do not attract much attention.
For instance, try and play Slumber hex everywhere without doing the whole Evil Eye+Misfortune+Cackle combo. I guarentee that you will find it much less and issue (assuming the GM isn't just throwing Orcs at ya). With the unholy trio you can really drop just about anything for the most part...
Reign of Winter: lots of warrior soldiers, lots of winter wolves, lots of ice trolls, lots of frost giants. Decent shot at dropping one a round of these with slumber hex straight up.
Debuffing is strong but takes a couple rounds or combo with others while slumber hex goes straight in with a very good 1/target SoD. debuffing can significantly depower a boss which will have an effect on the perceived challenge but slumber knocks enemies out quickly with one shot which has more of an unfun effect IMO.
Kingmaker, S&S, practically everything that is not full of undead, constructs, elves, outsiders or spellcasting enemies.
It is not "the one adventure", it is very common.|
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I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
SLA dont require hand moving. Casting defensively makes it a non issue, and bypassing SR can be really easy if a player really wants to go that route.
If your players are good with building the problems you have might be delayed, but they won't be stopped. I am not saying don't change the rules for your game. I am just saying don't be surprised when you run into them again at later levels.
Those aren't the only advantages of supernatural abilities against SLA.
Swarm? The distraction ability alone make casting spells a problem (20+SL is never a joke). Supernatural ability? Not a problem.SLA use is perceptible. Supernatural abilities isn't unless it give some outward sign of what it does. A big advantage in social situations.
I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
SLA dont require hand moving. Casting defensively makes it a non issue, and bypassing SR can be really easy if a player really wants to go that route.
If your players are good with building the problems you have might be delayed, but they won't be stopped. I am not saying don't change the rules for your game. I am just saying don't be surprised when you run into them again at later levels.
Those aren't the only advantages of supernatural abilities against SLA.
Swarm? The distraction ability alone make casting spells a problem (20+SL is never a joke). Supernatural ability? Not a problem.SLA use is perceptible. Supernatural abilities isn't unless it give some outward sign of what it does. A big advantage in social situations.
I have never seen a GM not let you know which monster is using SU ___ against you. Now if a player wants to try that argument they can, but they will likely regret it soon enough.
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Check the 'why are there so many solos' in APs threadAlso...rarely are the things in question all alone. So their friend can wake them up with an action.
And that's only the first couple of chapters of the AP and way less true thereafter.
Sure...and that's a problem. Not notably more of one with a Witch, IMO, given how action economy works, but a very real one.
But it's not mostly a problem with the creatures being discussed in RoW specifically. Which is what I was talking about.
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You ignore a major advantage of witchcraft: I've been able to heal a small army of warriors as soon as I began to cast!
Because I work in Westcrown, my Sarenraen companion and I have turned quite a profit selling hexes and more mundane medical treatment.
Witches are very easy to play in a linear fashion and are very good at it. They are the pinnacle of debuff and save and suck. Their patrons add some variety and they are like having half a wizard so there are a few ways to play them. It all comes down to the player.
For example I have a build call the pakemon master.
You get Patron-Animal, Speak with animals hex, cracked out charisma/diplomacy, carry companion spell + charm animal.
Now every animal you come across is a potential ally regardless of size or CR. Witches have access to this build by 4th level.
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I have never seen a GM not let you know which monster is using SU ___ against you. Now if a player wants to try that argument they can, but they will likely regret it soon enough.I am currently running a campaign with two witches (We are at level 11 now) and my biggest problem is that the hexes are supernatural abilities. I am definitely going to houserule hexes as spell-like abilities in my next campaign.
It's not the save or slumberness of the hexes, its that they can do it while completely silent, without moving their hands, provoking AoOs, or worrying about SR.
SLA dont require hand moving. Casting defensively makes it a non issue, and bypassing SR can be really easy if a player really wants to go that route.
If your players are good with building the problems you have might be delayed, but they won't be stopped. I am not saying don't change the rules for your game. I am just saying don't be surprised when you run into them again at later levels.
Those aren't the only advantages of supernatural abilities against SLA.
Swarm? The distraction ability alone make casting spells a problem (20+SL is never a joke). Supernatural ability? Not a problem.SLA use is perceptible. Supernatural abilities isn't unless it give some outward sign of what it does. A big advantage in social situations.
Really? So a Dark Tapestry oracle that use Gift of Madness or Brain drain is immediately identified as the one that attacked the target?
AFAIK that is exactly the opposite of how it work. The target, if he make his save, know that he has been attacked, if he fail it depend on the kind of attack. But unless the attack has some visible effect other people don't know at all that something has happened.
The different Knowledge skills can help identifying the effect, but not the perpetrator.
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I'm glad that there are fewer ways in Pathfinder to make SR meaningless than there were in 3.5, but I guess there will only be more as time goes on. Still, Inquisitors can beat SR pretty easily, and Alchemist Bombs are Su. There are also a number of spells which don't allow SR, so I wouldn't say that the Witch is unusual in her ability to bypass SR.
My impression of message boards discussions of problematic abilities is kind of like:
A: "Slumber/TWF Pistolero/Weird Words/Mysterious Death Combo is too easy and makes the game unfun"
B: "Here's a list of 17 ways to counter Slumber/TWF Pistolero/Weird Words/Mysterious Death Combo"
A: "Many of the monsters in my game can't pull off those tactics, and I'd have to change the adventure I'm running a lot just to account for this stuff. It is unfun."
C: "Here's a list of 17 powers just as bad as Slumber/TWF Pistolero/Weird Words/Mysterious Death Combo! That proves it is OK!"
A: "How does having a list of more broken stuff help? Couldn't we just tone down Slumber/TWF Pistolero/Weird Words/Mysterious Death Combo?"
Chorus: "Stop trying to oppress us"
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong. That just seems kind of like how it goes.