I have a 4th level Swashbuckler from the advanced classes play test that I began at level 1. So far I'm loving the build. The panache system is very nice, especially since I hit level 3 and unlocked deeds that don't require I use a point. (I've never played a Gunslinger so this was new to me.) My only complaint is about the saves. Its alternate classes are Gunslinger and Fighter, both of whom have good fort saves. What happened with that?
I'm starting this thread to try and take apart the Advanced Class system and see what people really think of it. Other classes in the party I play in are Warpriest and Brawler. The guy playing the Brawler is having fun choosing feats for a particular fight and the Warpriest is an NPC the DM threw in so we wouldn't immediately die. Looking through it though, I'm liking that its sacred weapon raises damage die, but am confused as to why they didn't limit it to the deity's favored weapon. Thoughts?
Looking through it though, I'm liking that its sacred weapon raises damage die, but am confused as to why they didn't limit it to the deity's favored weapon. Thoughts?
While thematically, Favored Weapons are great, mechanically many of them are pretty crappy. By allowing Warpriests to choose their own weapons, it frees them up to choose the Deity that best fits their character in a RP sense and not just choose solely because they had the best min/max weapon.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
1.) Yes, the Swashbuckler having a bad Fort save is both baffling and cripples the class in many ways.
2.) The Brawler has that neat feature, which is cool. Unfortunately IMO it doesn't have much else interesting going for it.
3.) The Warpriest isn't limited to the deity's Favored Weapon for several reasons. A.) Most deities have pretty crappy weapons. Sacred Weapon makes them better, but still not as good as other options. B.) To allow for build diversity. You shouldn't have to be a Warpriest of Erastil to be an archer, and even in canon not every devotee of a god uses the Favored Weapon. Indeed, in a few cases that weapon is only carried for ritual purposes (Pharasma's dagger) or the Favored Weapon isn't even a weapon the deity uses, merely is associated with for various reasons (Shelyn's glaive) and C.) Because it's simply more fun to allow a player options than not.
On the other classes:
4.) The Arcanist looks strong. Like...WAY strong. Like "Why would I play a Wizard instead of this" strong. We'll see if some changes have been made when the new preview comes out, hopefully.
5.) Bloodrager is rad as hell and I can't wait to play one. I like the Barbarian, I like the Sorcerer, and I like full BaB characters with a bit of magic. Good stuff.
6.) The Shaman is a class I didn't pay much attention to. Didn't pique my interest at all.
7.) The Slayer is badass. Playing one now, up to level 5 in Age of Worms using a sword and board build. It's what I've always wanted from a Rogue replacement and a spell-less Ranger combined. New favorite class.
8.) Investigator looks neat. Wish it got Studied Combat at 1st though. Haven't played with the 2nd playtest version.
9.) The Skald also didn't pique my interest a ton. Never been a big fan of Bards. Not because I think they're bad, or weak, or even uninteresting, just don't see myself playing one. It looks pretty solid for what it is though.
10.) The Hunter need not exist at all. I can't figure out what new niche it fills or what edge it has on EITHER of its parent classes. The ranger only needs a single Feat to make its AC just as good. The Druid does literally everything better. Same companion, more spells (and spell levels), same BaB, Wild Shape, and a ton of other stuff. The Hunter in the incarnation shown by the second playtest was pretty much a waste of wordcount.
10.) The Hunter need not exist at all. I can't figure out what new niche it fills or what edge it has on EITHER of its parent classes. The ranger only needs a single Feat to make its AC just as good. The Druid does literally everything better. Same companion, more spells (and spell levels), same BaB, Wild Shape, and a ton of other stuff. The Hunter in the incarnation shown by the second playtest was pretty much a waste of wordcount.
Yes! Of all the classes in the playtest Hunter seemed the most lacking in identity. Were they trying to make a Nature/Divine based Summoner with a bit more martial bent similar to the difference between Wizards and Druids/Clerics? Hopefully Hunter got some serious lovin' and some decent unique spells instead of just a 6/9 Druid list.
Good points regarding the favored weapons. I always liked the quote, "When god gives you lemons, find a new god." Maybe it's time for an updated pantheon. The Warpriest may make that never happen though. Too bad.
I thought the Skald would be a fun class, but that's mostly out of nostalgia. My very first character in the Pathfinder system was a gestalted bard/barbarian and that was amazing. The DM allowed me to use a totem spear that had holes along the length so that my fighting with the spear while raging could still count toward bardic performance not normally allowed during a rage. Fun times.
I was torn between slayer and swashbuckler so I rolled for it. Slayer sounded badass and swashbuckler sounded fun. I rarely ever play a full caster so the others only piqued my interest for the stuff I'd never heard of before.
That being said, I think I'll try an Arcanist next as the exploit ability intrigues me. The arcane reservoir is old hat as we've been using the spell points system since last year. I'm getting to the point in my gaming where wielding a sword and being one of the best on the melee field is becoming boring. Basically the same feats = basically the same character. Arcanist will break me of that mold and introduce me to something refreshing.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good points regarding the favored weapons. I always liked the quote, "When god gives you lemons, find a new god."
This is the only lemon quote that matters. Accept no substitutes.
Rynjin summed it up pretty nicely.
Some important notes
Apparently between V2 and final we should expect these changes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffed (either do to class or feat/archetype support)
-Swash
-Brawler
-Bloodrager (More thought out spell list and more equalized Bloodlines)
-Slayer (More talents)
-Investigator (The revealed studied combat+strike from the preview is a buff VS Version 2, possibly more buffs soon)
-Skald (Some spoilers shows more class abilities incoming)
-Hunter (Nothing revealed, but I heard SKR mention buffs incoming)
Nerfed
-Shaman (I heard it was getting nerfed a bit because it was too versatile)
-Warpriest (I don't want to talk about it)
Unknown (Paizo loves OP full casters, so I don't expect them to nerf the things that make these classes so good)
-Arcanist (People call it OP, but sometimes the design team disagrees on what is and isn't OP)
-Shaman (Same as Arcanist. Yes I know I listed Shaman twice)
This is the only lemon quote that matters. Accept no substitutes.
You definitely upped the bar there. Check out Power Thirst and the sequel on YouTube, that's where I got mine. I'd link it here but last time I tried linking HTML with href in these forums it failed utterly. I don't even know if I'm using those terms correctly so that could be an indicator...
Saw the Powerthirst commercials a looong time ago. Still haven't gotten around to making FOUR HUNDRED BABIES.
From what little I remember of HTML from way back, href is only used if you want to imbed links in an actual website (like if you're making a web page and want to link to a different one in the text), not a post on a forum.
You simply do [.url=<insert url here>]wordswordswords[/url].
Without the period after the bracket.
Rynjin summed it up pretty nicely.
Some important notes
Apparently between V2 and final we should expect these changes-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffed (either do to class or feat/archetype support)
-Swash
-Brawler
-Bloodrager (More thought out spell list and more equalized Bloodlines)
-Slayer (More talents)
-Investigator (The revealed studied combat+strike from the preview is a buff VS Version 2, possibly more buffs soon)
-Skald (Some spoilers shows more class abilities incoming)
-Hunter (Nothing revealed, but I heard SKR mention buffs incoming)
Where can I get the updated version so I can see the changes made to my current build?
Those statements were made based on Dev comments at the end of playtest, some spoilers the company released, and some blog post previews. I am just as antsy as you to see the final classes!
BTW level 3 pregens were made for the Bloodrager, Swash, Investigator, and Warpriest if you're interested.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Saw the Powerthirst commercials a looong time ago. Still haven't gotten around to making FOUR HUNDRED BABIES.
From what little I remember of HTML from way back, href is only used if you want to imbed links in an actual website (like if you're making a web page and want to link to a different one in the text), not a post on a forum.
You simply do [.url=<insert url here>]wordswordswords[/url].
Without the period after the bracket.
[.url=<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TO48Cnl66w>]Thanks[/url]
Thanks Rynjin, but I clearly suck at this.
Yes Insain Dragoon, I am interested. I have an Ifrit swashbuckler so I could utilize blistering feint feat. That's literally the only reason I chose an Ifrit. I'm curious to see what they did.
second attempt without the period in front of the first url...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh hey, it worked. Now I can go to bed. It's approaching 6am for me here.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding the Swashbuckler, I think you have to realize that while yes, the ACG classes are based on blending features of two existing classes, they are not necessarily an A+B=C scenario. The flavor of a swashbuckler is far different from that of either the fighter OR the gunslinger. The fighter is about bodily training, which lends itself to the fort save. The gunslinger is all about grit, which again, lends itself to the fort save. The swashbuckler is more about, well, panache. Style, grace, etc. This lends itself much more to a reflex save.
That's all fine and dandy, but much like with the Rogue, a Swashbuckler being brought low by any schmuck with poison his blade is pretty non-thematic as well.
Playing my Swash at level 7 I almsot died in nearly every encounter involving a Will or Fort save (this was Playtest 1 version, mind you, it got a tiny boost in P2).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I think Swashbuckler I think The Princess Bride and when I think the Princess Bride I think "dem fort saves yo"
In this game you want (Some would even say need) at least one good save in Fort or Will.
I put a whole lot more than my two cents in on the swashbuckler save issue during the playtest, and was pretty horrified to see fort was still bad in the free RPG day Iconic sampler.
It's possible the final version compensates for it in other ways, like maybe swashbuckler's grace gets upgraded to something that's always on at higher levels, but I've never seen a campaign where the PCs on the front line could get by with that liability, and I can't think of any way you could really mitigate it properly with anything short of a paladin level dip if it doesn't.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my frontline characters usually run a strong fort save and good con. In my future characters I wont be running a Swash, but then again I don't feel like running another "I stand still and full attack" build.
|
I'm not convinced the Warpriest is going to be that big of a nerf. Yes, they are losing full BAB on Sacred Weapon, but they are keeping sacred damage, they are keeping Heavy Armor prof, Warpriest Level counts as fighter for feats and counts as BAB for prerequisites, blessings are getting buffed, and charisma was removed from the class making it far less MAD.
I played Oloch on free RPG day and was impressed by the level 3 performance. I'm still excited for the class. Between swift action self buffs, Blessings, and Sacred Weapon to raise attack, I am not too worried about the loss of BAB.
I can live with the character having a bad Fortitude and Will because of the charmed life class feature. I think it starts at 2nd level that 3x/day you can, before your roll, declare a use of charmed life to add your charisma mod to anything you'd roll a save for. My charisma is 21 due to some pretty weird circumstances esoteric to our campaign; so I add 5 to any save I want, 3x/day. Charmed life levels to a maximum of 7x/day at its peak. That "saves" the class for me and still fits the thematic aspect that CraziFuzzy mentioned with a tip of the hat to Rynjin's comment as well.
Warpriest with full bab was insane. Glad it's not making it to the final version. It pretty much became was the only frontline fighter worth playing because it obsoleted everyone else
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can live with the character having a bad Fortitude and Will because of the charmed life class feature. I think it starts at 2nd level that 3x/day you can, before your roll, declare a use of charmed life to add your charisma mod to anything you'd roll a save for. My charisma is 21 due to some pretty weird circumstances esoteric to our campaign; so I add 5 to any save I want, 3x/day. Charmed life levels to a maximum of 7x/day at its peak. That "saves" the class for me and still fits the thematic aspect that CraziFuzzy mentioned with a tip of the hat to Rynjin's comment as well.
Yes, only 3x per day. As an Immediate action (which prevents you from using Parry, one of the defined features of the class).
Personally I find I make a LOT more than 3 saves a day. And the vast majority of them are not Reflex saves.
|
As things stand:
Swashbuckler could definitely use a few minor tweaks to be really awesome (good Fortitude Save included). I'm hoping they get them, but we'll have to wait and see.
Brawler is a bit sub-par and how to fix it is a little trickier. Again, we'll have to wait and see.
Hunter, in the playtest, was pretty worthless. Let's hope it got fixed...but that's a hard concept to fix. How do you give something with 2/3 Druid casting class features that are enough of an improvement over the Druid's (ie: the guy with the best Class Features in the game) to make up for the casting disparity?
Arcanist was probably too strong in the playtest. Probably enough to obsolete Sorcerers if not Wizards. Let's hope it got toned down a bit.
Warpriest was pretty crazy in the playtest version...but they may have gone too far in the other direction. Yet another wait and see.
The Shaman is getting it's own spell list and seriously revised from the playtest version...so your guess is as good as mine, really.
Skald was cool in the playtest version, and is apparently being powered up in a few ways (they're getting Versatile Performance, for example) in the final version. So they look to be great.
Slayer is wonderful and makes me happy. It's also likely to get upgraded if anything. So yay.
Investigator was a bit weak at combat in the playtest (though awesome otherwise), but the recently revealed and powered up Studied Combat makes it pretty much pure win.
Bloodrager was, IMO, hampered by it's spell list in the playtest. The final version's getting a revamped one, though, so that's looking like it's gonna be solid.
Arcanist was probably too strong in the playtest. Probably enough to obsolete Sorcerers if not Wizards. Let's hope it got toned down a bit.
People keep saying this. Can you educate me on why? What I see is
Lower spells/day than wizard who specs and casting progression of sorcerer in exchange for marginally more utility in the way you cast spells. The exploits don't seem that strong and are mostly in line with the school specializations. The bonus feats from the wizard are in line with the item creation feat option.
Honestly the most important thing about full casters is the spell list, spells per day, and casting progression. Sin magic and specialization are available to wizards.
The arcanist is very good compared to the sorcerer. It's not as good as the wizard. That's a perfect place to sit classes from the class merging standpoint. It's also different enough from the sorcerer that sorcerer's still work.
Well the exploit they spoiled that lets them change a memorized spell for a simple full round action seems kinda nice...
Oh and if you make a Dispel/Counterspell Focused Arcanist... the DM will hate you...
Oh and Since Arcanist's can now Dip into Sorcerer, they will dominate the blaster scene now. Go 1 level dip into Crossblooded Sorcerer to get Orc/Dragon and go arcanist to get ANOTHER Arcana... oh and when it comes to Meta-magic, Arcanist is king...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1.) Yes, the Swashbuckler having a bad Fort save is both baffling and cripples the class in many ways.
It makes sense to me. When I think 'Swashbuckler', I don't think 'tough/sturdy' at all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Arcanist was probably too strong in the playtest. Probably enough to obsolete Sorcerers if not Wizards. Let's hope it got toned down a bit.
People keep saying this. Can you educate me on why? What I see is
Lower spells/day than wizard who specs and casting progression of sorcerer in exchange for marginally more utility in the way you cast spells. The exploits don't seem that strong and are mostly in line with the school specializations. The bonus feats from the wizard are in line with the item creation feat option.
Honestly the most important thing about full casters is the spell list, spells per day, and casting progression. Sin magic and specialization are available to wizards.
The arcanist is very good compared to the sorcerer. It's not as good as the wizard. That's a perfect place to sit classes from the class merging standpoint. It's also different enough from the sorcerer that sorcerer's still work.
Well the exploit they spoiled that lets them change a memorized spell for a simple full round action seems kinda nice...
Oh and if you make a Dispel/Counterspell Focused Arcanist... the DM will hate you...
Oh and Since Arcanist's can now Dip into Sorcerer, they will dominate the blaster scene now. Go 1 level dip into Crossblooded Sorcerer to get Orc/Dragon and go arcanist to get ANOTHER Arcana... oh and when it comes to Meta-magic, Arcanist is king...
From the perspective of a munchkin who loves power gaming (and RP but that's not for here) the arcanist is literally a straight downgrade from the wizard and even the witch.
The dispel is cute. It's not terrible but it's not OMGBROKEN. It's easily supplemented at high levels when it would be really good, due to slots,with contingency, spell immunity, and spell turning.
Changing spells isn't entirely relevant given that a wizards arcane bond lets you cast one off your list for that one thing you need. Additionally fast research and open...
1) The ability to change up a spell known as full round action is actually exceptionally useful. This makes the Arcanist Schrodinger's Wizard. Literally. Before, the wizard could be caught with his pants down from time to time. The Arcanist can literally say "Do I know spell? Yes? Do I have a Spell-per-Day available? Yes? Ok lets go to town." This actually makes the Arcanist effectively a slightly better Paragon Surge Sorcerer.
2) Blasting as a sub-par focus is kind of misleading. Sure you can spend 3 spells to help your party kill the guy... or you drop 2 and wipe him, and his buddies, off the map. And an optimized blaster can make martials cry with his damage... Oh, and, unlike the wizard, he doesn't need to worry about only having 3 fireballs prepared, he can spontaniously cast them and his other spells as needed. \
3) You can only change spell slots you left open... The Arcanist can change spells he memorized. So he doesn't need to leave open slots that a re pretty much wasted space if they are not used. He can utilize everything he has.
4) Actually that is slightly wrong. When it comes to meta-magic, versatility and he ability to reduce cost is king. Any caster can reduce all about the same. But the Arcanist has that nifty exploit "Greater Metamagic Knowledge." He gains a bonus meta magic feat that he can shift out each day as he sees fit. This gives him the ability to grab the more utility ones (Merciful if he is gonna have to deal wiht crowds of Civis, The Undead focused ones for enchantment, Elemental if he needs it, ect.) Additionally, the Arcanist has some wonkiness as well. With Spell perfection, Wayang Spellhunter, and Magical Lineage he can easily meta-magic quite a bit for free. Well he can "prepare" the spell with the meta-magic at the normal spell level. From there he can Meta-Magic from a Lower level Rod THEN meta-magic with his actual meta-magic spontaniously. That allows for a but of abuse with meta-magic...
5) I forgot also, Arcanists are NASTY SoS casters... the ability to increase your caster level by 2 or your DCs by 2 (why WOULDN'T you grab the Potent Magic exploit???) is killer on top of everything else (like havint the Arcane Sorcerer's arcana that increases caster level by another 1 whenever you meta-magic a spell).
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
1.) Yes, the Swashbuckler having a bad Fort save is both baffling and cripples the class in many ways.It makes sense to me. When I think 'Swashbuckler', I don't think 'tough/sturdy' at all.
I do. My image of a Swashbuckler is not some dandy who crumples over at the slightest shove or cries over his oh so painful hangnail.
Nor is it the big beefstick.
But I certainly see them as sturdy. Dartagnan, Jack Sparrow, Westley/Inigo, and so on.
They're not wimps. They're not going to give in just because someone gave them a little poison, or some monster got his claws in deep and it really hurts. They'll still fight through the pain if it kills them, even if they won't shrug it off like the berserker.
Best example of swashbuckler ever
The princess Bride!
The dread pirate!
If there is not a Swashbuckler archetype with immunity to poison, I will be disappointed.
Swashbuckler - This class is well designed and strong. The lack of saves is made up for by a deed. (similar to how the paladin has "Poor reflex" but really "Poor" Means "Slightly ahead of all but those who have good save + Main stat high".
I don't want to get into too big a discussion here, because again, I'm waiting to see the final version of the class and really hoping they get something better to compensate a few levels in, that they just didn't want to front load, but as per available information, no, not at all.
Paladins have divine grace on top of a good fort and will save. If you neglect your dex (likely, because full plate fits the theme, and you can afford a smite to offset the rare flying enemy you need to pull out a bow for), you essentially have a character with an untouchable fort and will, and the same reflex save as someone with a poor save, but a fantastic dex. Plus the weird extra option to increase all their saves by upping one stat with equipment, on top of upgrading them the standard way. And on top of THAT, they can even get away with dumping 4 stats. Str for hit and damage, cha for special abilities and all 3 saves. Let someone else play lookout, wear full plate, constantly use swift actions to heal yourself and it's not tremendously important how high you push your max HP.
Swashbucklers aren't in the same boat at all. They can't self-heal like a paladin, so they still need con for the HP. They're all about high dexterity builds conceptually (and if nothing else, you need it for your AC). Wisdom they can replace with charisma, sure, but now it's just a 1 for 1 substitution, not that cool 3 for 1 deal, and we're looking at a poor will save vs. a good. Outside of Swashbuckler's Grace, they have the worst will save in the game. When it comes up, you're really going to want to pile your wis, cha, and poor save together, which should, collectively, come out close to everyone else's will save (assuming, somehow, your only noticeably low stat is int). And this, of course, is all still ignoring the fact that unlike Divine Grace, this ability is not always on. It has a limited number of uses, and requires an immediate action. Before we get into the activation issue, just factoring in the base saves and option to boost them up, the fact that our stats are spread so thin (at least relative to a paladin's), you have a terrible fort save (pumpable to poor with decent stat), insane ref save (pumpable to you-know-you-auto-fail-on-a-one-right?), and terrible will save (pumpable to poor with decent stat).
More to the point, not all saves are created equal. If I'm the front line melee character in my party, I don't care one bit how bad my reflex save is. Generally, if I'm making a reflex save, it's because some spell or breath weapon is hitting the entire party for a fair chunk of damage. It doesn't come up too often. Odds are great I'm not by the bulk of the party (they're hanging back, I'm way up front), and even when I am getting hit, the standard action spent on what's calling for the save means I'm not getting hit by some single-target bit of nastiness, like say, a dragon's full attack, which would do way more damage. And taking big piles of damage is in my job description besides. I'm perfectly happy eating all the fireballs and lightning bolts you happen to throw my way.
Will saves, are seriously dangerous for everybody. If you ever fail a will save, odds are very good that you are going to either stop participating in the battle, or switch sides. Fortunately, will saves are also pretty rare. If you are making a will save, it is almost always become some spell caster is specifically trying to take you and you alone out of the battle, as their entire contribution to the round. Odds are, this will not come up more times than a Swashbuckler has uses of Swashbuckler's Grace, and they're going to be about on par with a fighter or a rouge on that front, possibly even a ranger, depending how much they care about spells and if they have a switch hitter build. Activating it is the only issue there.
Fort saves though, fort saves come up constantly on the front lines. While reflex saves hit everyone in a wide area, and will saves generally just target one person at a time (or everyone, for minor fear/distraction based things), fort saves are typically found in the form of riders to a creatures attacks. Poison applied to a weapon, nasty venom on fangs claws and stingers, diseases spread through immediate contact. If you're hanging way back lobbing spells and arrows, odds are pretty good you will never have to make these saves. If you are out front doing the melee thing, you make one every time you take a hit from a creature who has one. Plus a few mages who want to mix things up with their save or suck effects.
The big example I brought up during the play test was ghouls. A ghoul is a CR1 creature, which can, assuming it can full attack, and land every blow, force four fort saves in a single round... and thematically, they tend to attack in large numbers.
Under the core rules, this nasty stream of constant fort saves is typically thrown only at characters who can take it. Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Monks, Clerics, Druids, and Bards, these are all PCs one can reasonably assume will have a nice high AC, probably a decent con, and a good fort save. So it tends to come down to "if this monster beats a really good AC AND you fail a save, then you have to deal with the effects. In fact, the only classes which DON'T have a good fort save are wizards and sorcs (which nicely adds some extra incentive to keep them out of harms way, casting their long range spells), and rogues... and frankly, rogues dying because of that low fort save would outweigh all other PC deaths I've witnessed combined if the math weren't thrown off by this one guy I know who loves suicidal risk-taking and casters. If I could change one thing about the CRB, I'd fix that save. Only classes published since with bad fort saves by the way are ninja if you count it, witch, summoner, and (surprisingly) oracle.
On top of that, the effects of a failed fort save, generally speaking, are less of a big deal for front line melee types than other characters. Typically, you see things which lower physical stats (str makes you do less damage, but it's high enough to spare it, dex drops your AC, but it's already limited and supplemented by your armor, con can kill you and drops your fort saves, but you have it to spare, like strength), or they nail you with various status effects (fatigue, stun, paralysis) which leave you a little less effective or more vulnerable (especially paralysis, as you lose your dex bonus, but again, armor). On the nastier end of things, you have poison and disease effects, which have continual round by round effects, but you can stop them with another fort save, which again, frontliners are great at making. Still pretty good at it with con damage poisons making each roll harder.
Swashbucklers feel these more. Basically all your AC comes from dex, so if you're denied that bonus, you're suddenly a sitting duck. The class concept is all about dex based damage, so any dex damage you're taking combines all the negative effects of dex damage with strength damage. If you're actually taking strength damage with a dex focused build, that changes your carrying capacity, with which you almost certainly were really riding the edge of a light load (weapons and even light armor are heavy and all), so that lowered strength kicks you up to medium, denying your dex bonus and trashing your AC (plus, if I recall, some class features). And if you take con damage, you lose the ability to pass future fort saves, which again, come up a lot in succession when they come up.
Finally, practically speaking, using Swashbuckler's Grace for fort saves is generally not really an option. In many cases, you literally just can't do it. A bite from a ghoul for instance calls for 2 fort saves, one for the paralysis, one for the disease. Use it on one, you can't use it for the other. Nor can you use it for the saves from that ghoul's claw attacks, or other ghouls' attacks (more or less all of which are going to consistently start hitting if you fail any of those paralysis saves, don't forget). You also can't use it if there's anything else you were going to spend that immediate action, like say, parrying the bite that'd nail you with two saves if it hit, and of course, if you spend an immediate action on defense, you have no swift action the following round, which swashbucklers need for... nearly every single class feature they have as of the last play test document.
But again, at this particular moment, the book has gone to print, and nobody here has seen the final list of class features, so there isn't really any merit in analyzing the issues just now. Too early to tell if the problems still exist, too late to do anything about it if they do. Personally I'm really looking forward to seeing the final version of everything in any case, in a couple cases to see if the outstanding issues were resolved, but mostly because I'm really excited to start playing with most of them based on what I've seen.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hit and run, Flank buddy tactics don't work in this game. It's part of why Rogues and Monks suck so hard in most cases.
The Swashbuckler is a full BaB d10 HD class. If he wasn't supposed to be a frontliner...he wouldn't need those things.
And considering 90% of his class features relate to direct combat, yeah, he's a frontliner.
What remains to be seen is whether he's a GOOD frontliner.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are swash bucklers suppose to be front line burly always in the thick of things combatists?
I haven't played one but reading it I'd likely be less paladin fighter like and more hit and run, flank buddy sort of thing.
Maybe I just highly envision it as more fencing, quick knife fighter over other ideas.
To take a stereo type from older video games like Tenchu or Onimusha. A fighter/paladin etc being like the main male characters and the swash buckler being like the side quick many hits sidekick. (They used to be rogue/ninja to me, 15bab, low hp etc. but swash buckler fits that idea so much better than rogue-like classes)I guess we'll see once it comes out which way it stilts towards
All of its combat mechanics indicate that it's supposed to stand still and full attack.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't necessarily need to be the one getting attacked to be the target of nasty stuff. Plenty of monsters induce saves on sight, have AOE nastiness, or large numbers.
Shouldn't balance a class around one guy being lucky.
Good rule of thumb is if your character needs a 13+ to make the majority of the saves you need to make, his saves are way too low.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just gonna say their is a reason people really really like Divine characters. Well lots of reasons, but a big one is that Paizo loves to give them strong saves.
An Inquisitor or Paladin Archer has laughably amazing saves. Clerics and Druids can pump wis and fort to get amazing saves. Even Warpriests join the high save party. Several Oracles even get to use Charisma for AC and Reflex, just for the lulz.
Edit: Honestly it's kind of Sad that Paizo is stingy with Will save progression on non-casters. Just the Monk.
1.) Yes, the Swashbuckler having a bad Fort save is both baffling and cripples the class in many ways.It makes sense to me. When I think 'Swashbuckler', I don't think 'tough/sturdy' at all.I do. My image of a Swashbuckler is not some dandy who crumples over at the slightest shove or cries over his oh so painful hangnail.
Nor is it the big beefstick.
But I certainly see them as sturdy. Dartagnan, Jack Sparrow, Westley/Inigo, and so on.
They're not wimps. They're not going to give in just because someone gave them a little poison, or some monster got his claws in deep and it really hurts. They'll still fight through the pain if it kills them, even if they won't shrug it off like the berserker.
Having a lower Fortitude doesn't make you a physical pushover. Having a low Constitution would reflect this.
Swashbucklers are not tough, they are agile. I don't remember Jack Sparrow ever taking a brutal beating and keep going. Wesley wasn't physically strong and couldn't take a severe punishment. Indigo was the same. Errol Flynn is the perfect vision of a Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler's don't get hit, they do a dazzling display of swordplay and acrobatics to avoid getting hit.
Having low Fortitude makes perfect sense. If you want a higher Fortitude up your Constitution and take Great Fortitude.