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I use the most updated herolab files to create characters as I often identify gaps in my knowledge of the rules when I realize I cant do something in Herolab or it gives a red error message.
My character for background: Elven Wizard 7/Crossblooded Tatto'd Sorcerer 1 (Gold Dragon/Orc blood lines)with Spell focus/Greater SF Evocation, Varisian Tattoo Evocation, Magical Lineage: Fireball, Empower Spell and Spell Focus: Fireball. Int: respectable 26.
1.) When I create an Empowered Fireball with magical lineage, it becomes a level 4 spell but the DC is wonky. The DC of the empowered Fireball is only 22 but a standard level 3 FB is DC23. Is this a glitch or some ability I have not stacking with the metamagic version of the spell?
From carefully reading the rules, the Empowered metamagic version of a spell has the same DC as the base spell so I would assume both are DC:23.
2.) (realized the answer to the original question here but have follow on question) If I use a metamagic rod, lesser Elemental type on an Empowered Fireball that I have that is currently occupying a level 4 spell slot (due to magical lineage), does the rod work? It says a lesser rod only works on spells of level 3 or lower and the metamagic feat says that altering the spell with metamagic does NOT actually change the spell level only the slot it occupies for book keeping purposes so I would assume an Empowered FB can be used along with a carried lesser Elemental rod 3/day.
Is this the correct interpretation?
THANKS!
In reference to question 2. No (see FAQ). It counts as a 4th level spell in terms of what type of metamagic rod is needed to further modify it with metamagic.
They function as "on the spot" for all casters. The rods also give you access to the feat as if you actually had it.
PS: Sorcerers don't memorize spells. <----somewhat off-topic but related.
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They function as "on the spot" for all casters. The rods also give you access to the feat as if you actually had it.
PS: Sorcerers don't memorize spells. <----somewhat off-topic but related.
thanks does this mean a wizard casting spell with a carried metamagic rod requires a full round action rather than a standard action to cast a typical spell like fireball?
This would make the feat far better than the item.
thanks does this mean a wizard casting spell with a carried metamagic rod requires a full round action rather than a standard action to cast a typical spell like fireball?
Yes
This would make the feat far better than the item.
Questionable: would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell) or would you rather prepare a 6th level spell (probably similar damage with higher save DC)?
In regards to number 1, the save DC should be the same as an unmodified fireball. This is likely a programming issue on Herolab's side.
Number 2 is covered by the FAQ bbangerter mentioned.
They function as "on the spot" for all casters. The rods also give you access to the feat as if you actually had it.
PS: Sorcerers don't memorize spells. <----somewhat off-topic but related.
thanks does this mean a wizard casting spell with a carried metamagic rod requires a full round action rather than a standard action to cast a typical spell like fireball?
This would make the feat far better than the item.
No a wizard does not need a full round action with the rod.
thanks does this mean a wizard casting spell with a carried metamagic rod requires a full round action rather than a standard action to cast a typical spell like fireball?Yes
This would make the feat far better than the item.Questionable: would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell) or would you rather prepare a 6th level spell (probably similar damage with higher save DC)?
Metamagic spells do not increase the DC. It is still 3rd level spell, but it uses 6th level slot.
Only heighten changes the base level of the spell, but it does not stack with other metamagics to increase the DC.
I'm confused. That FAQ doesn't seem to cover metamagic rods...
Why wouldn't an empowered fireball be treated as a 3rd-level spell for the purposes of determining whether or not my lesser maximize metamagic rod would effect it?
Metamagic spells do not increase the DC. It is still 3rd level spell, but it uses 6th level slot.This would make the feat far better than the item.Questionable: would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell) or would you rather prepare a 6th level spell (probably similar damage with higher save DC)?
I do believe that's what I said:
would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell)
The FAQ has an "in general" clause that covers pretty much everything--always pick whichever would be worse for the caster. An empowered fireball spell is treated as a 4th-level spell for the purposes of determine how magic items interact with it. Just as it would require a pearl of power IV or higher to recover, it would require a regular or greater metamagic rod to further enhance.
Note that I don't particularly like this FAQ, but that's how it reads.
I'm confused. That FAQ doesn't seem to cover metamagic rods...
Why wouldn't an empowered fireball be treated as a 3rd-level spell for the purposes of determining whether or not my lesser maximize metamagic rod would effect it?
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster.
Would having the spell be treated as higher level be an advantage or disadvantage to the caster?
While the FAQ specifically did not ask about metamagic rods, this portion is listed as a general rule (e.g., In general...)
What if the metamagic were applied via Spell Perfection?
I'm confused. That FAQ doesn't seem to cover metamagic rods...
Why wouldn't an empowered fireball be treated as a 3rd-level spell for the purposes of determining whether or not my lesser maximize metamagic rod would effect it?
I think he was asking about preparing the spell as a sorcerer. I had forgotten about that FAQ but I guess it should be mentioned.
would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell)
ok.. I misunderstood what you were saying.
What if the metamagic were applied via Spell Perfection?
Then by the rules of spell perfection you have not changed the slot level of the spell and there is no advantage/disadvantage to compare against - it is both a 3rd level spell in a 3rd level slot.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.Metamagic rod =/= concentration DC, pearl of power or magus recall
I would say that assuming a FAQ applies to more things that it says it applies to is fairly dangerous.
The FAQ specifically addresses concentration DC, spell recall, pearls of power, then goes on to say "In general...", meaning aside from the specific items mentioned in the FAQ, here is how you rule it for any similar situation that comes up.
If you really want to argue against this though then you can start in this thread here where I point out the loose usage of the term spell level to have multiple meanings throughout the book and that assuming one that is favorable to a certain view point is not a correct application of the rules (in fact that is the thread that originally spawned the question that got the FAQ response).
I don't see how this could be unclear
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.DC is just one level dependent effect, there is nothing there that implies that's the only purpose for which "this does not change the level of the spell" applies
You do understand that the FAQ is an official rules clarification?
I am lost. What is the disagreement about?
I am lost. What is the disagreement about?
Whether the FAQ applies to using metamagic rods (lesser, normal, greater) that have already been metamagically enhanced.
and the FAQ does not mention metamagic rods, in fact, the thread that particular FAQ answered had questions specifically regarding Metamagic rods and the design team seems to have intentionally left them out of that post.
??
The FAQ specifically addresses concentration DC, spell recall, pearls of power, then goes on to say "In general...", meaning aside from the specific items mentioned in the FAQ, here is how you rule it for any similar situation that comes up.
You can't ignore part of the FAQ.
plaidwandering, I think you're the only one who reads that FAQ and doesn't believe it applies to metamagic rods as well. Why wouldn't it? They generalize after covering 3 specific cases because there are a ton of items that this FAQ can apply too, including ones that might be written in the future. They mentioned three specific items, and generalize all the rest. It was certianly meant to apply to metamagic rods as well.
I see. If the spell is taking up a 4th level slot then due an FAQ that spell can not be used with the rod even though it is still a 3rd level spell.
Personally I don't like that ruling, but what I like is not a rule.
Here is the the portion of the FAQ that applies:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
I see. If the spell is taking up a 4th level slot then due an FAQ that spell can not be used with the rod even though it is still a 3rd level spell.
Personally I don't like that ruling, but what I like is not a rule.
Yep, same here.
The specific post that spawned the FAQ
I realize you are using the in general to apply it to something not mentioned, but bad things happen when you use generic languages to apply FAQs to more than what they really mention.
So in general, we should ignore anything covered under a more general clause or statement because it might be wrong? :0 That's a lot of rules to start ignoring.
So in general, we should ignore anything covered under a more general clause or statement because it might be wrong? :0 That's a lot of rules to start ignoring.The specific post that spawned the FAQ
I realize you are using the in general to apply it to something not mentioned, but bad things happen when you use generic languages to apply FAQs to more than what they really mention.
I see what you did there. ≖_≖
If the "in general" applies to most everything related to metamagic, wouldn't that mean you need a 16 spellcasting stat in order to cast a maximized fireball?
(Which I seriously doubt is the case.)
If the "in general" applies to most everything related to metamagic, wouldn't that mean you need a 16 spellcasting stat in order to cast a maximized fireball?
(Which I seriously doubt is the case.)
As written yes. This is a strawman though as no mage reaches level 11 without getting a int of 16 or more, either through starting with int 14 and applying to int at level up, or buying a headband of vast intellect (which they can well afford at that level).
Theoretically it is possible to build a caster character, get to level 11, have a low casting stat, and take maximized spell, but theoretically there are all kinds of ways I can ruin a PC or NPC.
I could build a monk on a 10 point buy, dumping wisdom, dex, and str to pump int and cha, then insist on fighting with a crossbow as my primary weapon - but I shouldn't then complain that some options in the game aren't working out very well for me. :)
Straw man, or a good logical point for the counterargument?
Looks like both to me.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Straw man, or a good logical point for the counterargument?
Straw man, I'd say.
The FAQ is in agreement with the 3.5 comments from WotC developers who had the same concerns with stuffing maximized fireballs in spell storing items that only hold 3 levels. The "treat as lower level" clause is designed in all ways to be a disadvantage. The effort of trying to take advantage of that disadvantage is discouraged. Hence the spawning of the FAQ since we didn't take the hint.
Straw man, or a good logical point for the counterargument?
Looks like both to me.
I'd think the 11th level mage would be more concerned about the fact that he cannot cast 6th level spells, at all, then that he can't cast a maximized fireball.
A strawman, by definition, doesn't really make a good counter argument.
Me thinks you are getting a little too caught up on the example itself. Could easily be a much higher level spell.
As written yes. This is a strawman though as no mage reaches level 11 without getting a int of 16 or more, either through starting with int 14 and applying to int at level up, or buying a headband of vast intellect (which they can well afford at that level).If the "in general" applies to most everything related to metamagic, wouldn't that mean you need a 16 spellcasting stat in order to cast a maximized fireball?
(Which I seriously doubt is the case.)
Cough, ability damage/drain, cough.
thanks does this mean a wizard casting spell with a carried metamagic rod requires a full round action rather than a standard action to cast a typical spell like fireball?Yes
This would make the feat far better than the item.Questionable: would you rather spend a 6th level spell slot on a Maximized Fireball (with the save DC of a 3rd level spell) or would you rather prepare a 6th level spell (probably similar damage with higher save DC)?
Wizards do not increase casting time for using metamagic, that is for spontaneous casters only.