if you where evil and had the choice what would you be a lich or a non controlled vampire?
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Lich. Hands down. All the fun of undead with cooler powers and no need to avoid sunlight or running water.
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After reading the daily bestiary entry on them, I am going to say A Worm that Walks.
Liches are just wusses that wanted immortality, but they were too weak and lacked the talent to do so while using a living body. I got places to go, people to see (and kill). I don't got no time for all that tomb creepin'. I got plans, and no meddlin' adventurers leavin' me to bleed in a ditch is goin' to stop that.
Vampires, on the other hand went with the form of immortality that lets them keep their bodies nice and pretty...but it comes with so many weaknesses, it is not even funny. This is not the option for someone that knows what they are doing. This is the thing for someone that 'knows a guy that knows a guy' and goes to snatch up the first form of immortality that they can get their hands on.
But hey, I am just a contrarian, no?
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and worms that walk are just spellcasters who got buried it the cursed pet cematery down the road when he crossed the local thieves guild :)
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Lich hands down. Undead without the unpleasant weaknesses. Plus you're a full caster (probably) and thus have all kinds of tricks.
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Lich hands down. Undead without the unpleasant weaknesses. Plus you're a full caster (probably) and thus have all kinds of tricks.
There is nothing to stop a vampire from being a full caster, or having tricks to deal with sunlight.
A little SPF 1000 goes a long way.
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vampire monk
forever
Lich hands down. Undead without the unpleasant weaknesses. Plus you're a full caster (probably) and thus have all kinds of tricks.There is nothing to stop a vampire from being a full caster, or having tricks to deal with sunlight.
A little SPF 1000 goes a long way.
Not long enough. 10 min/level is enough for a quick escape, maybe, but you need to be fairly high level in order to pull that off with enough left over to do the daily stuff (going to the grocery store, mind controlling the grocer into murdering his family, picking up eggs while still having time to get your dry cleaning).
A lich at least has the advantage that you need some prerequisite amount of skill. A vampire could be a level 1 commoner barmaid that a sire decided looked very good in that dress. A lich needs careful consideration and preparation, while vampires are often born from whims.
But again, I prefer to walk the path of coincidence grabbed firmly by unbeatable determination.
Lich hands down. Undead without the unpleasant weaknesses. Plus you're a full caster (probably) and thus have all kinds of tricks.There is nothing to stop a vampire from being a full caster, or having tricks to deal with sunlight.
A little SPF 1000 goes a long way.
A vampire CAN be a caster, but by definition a lich IS a caster. Plus Sunlight is the least of a vampires problems. Cant cross Running water gets pretty irritating. Especially if it's modern times where water is running in pipes everywhere. Does that even qualify? Maybe. Who knows? That'd be a pain in the ass regardless.
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Lich, it is far less problematic.
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Lich for sure.
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I think that even as a Evil Spell caster turning my self undead would be kind of a last resort. But if the choice was Lich, vampire or destruction( and face a quite unplasent after life) i would go all the way and be a Lich. A vampire is too vulnerabel and dependent where a Lich can be more his own man(monster).
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Vampire all the way. You don't even have to be Evil, though most are.
And a permanent Item of Protective Penumbra is only 12k, 6k if you craft it yourself...that's very affordable if you're high enough level that you could be a Lich.
Liches are potentially cool, but along with all those weaknesses (which there are definitely ways around) vampires have all sorts of neat powers and tricks they can use at-will, and impossible physical strength to boot. Plus looking pretty.
And becoming a Lich is a long and seriously unpleasant process. Becoming a vampire? Much shorter and potentially more pleasant.
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The problem with vampires in RPGs are that they are inspired by hollywood's version of what a vampire should be. Go check out the old Romanian tales of vampires and dhampirs. Vampires were a lot harder to tell from mortals back in those stories. No sunlight issues either, I believe. And it's just polite to wait to be invited in to a person's home anyway.
Grave knight? :P
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I'm assuming we're keeping to Pathfinder lich/vampires because I can't argue 100 different variants on the same thing. Also lets do "out of the box" meaning when you first become both. You can list after a con the requirements to overcome it.
Lets compile a pros an Con's list.
Vamp Pro:
Undead (immortal, but you know, dead)
+Physical stats
"Pretty"
Spawn (insta-minion)
Dominate (insta-minion)
Easy to make, but dependent on others.
Vamp Con:
Undead
Sunlight - Overcome: Caster level, Craft wondrous, Protective penumbra 12Kgp
Running water - Overcome: Have a swim speed when you're turned.
Need coffin to rejuvenate (9 mile "leash")
Garlic
Crosses
SLA's
Lich Pro:
Undead
Caster
Phylactery (rejuvinate at any distance even across planes)
"Sla's" (fear aura, Paralyzing Touch etc)
Lich Con:
Undead
"Ugly" - Overcome: Craft wondrous, gentle repose 2Kgp
Phylactery - Strong weakness Overcome: Keep it hidden Demiplane etc
Paralyzing Touch (could be a problem if you can't repress it) : Overcome: Gloves
Difficult to make, but self created.
___________________________________________________________________________ _____
Feel free to add to it.
Lich still looks to be less problematic with greater benefits. out-of-the-box caster is a major one for me. Sure, there's some downside to being a lich, but even a brand new lich has the tools (magic) to overcome all of his/her weaknesses.
Vampires Can overcome weaknesses, but they've got to spend a lot more time/effort doing so. Either they have to become casters or they have to find one.
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I’m surprised only one person in this thread has mentioned a vampire’s unending thirst for blood as a negative.
Also, a phylactery is many times better than a coffin. No range restrictions, and it’s easier to conceal and protect.
Liches are immune, rather than merely resistant, to cold and electricity. Their DR is higher than vampires’.
However, vampires get a pretty amazing package of bonus feats and racial bonuses, and their at-will dominate is fantastic. Their at-will Spider Climb is underrated.
Vampires are better armored. They get more charisma on top of toughness, so given the same stats they have 2 more hit points per die.
Still, I’d go lich. Vampires just have too many issues: mirrors, crosses, water, shadows, daylight, garlic. I’d like to be able to walk down a street with an italian restaurant on it, thanks.
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I don't think listing 'being a spellcaster' as an advantage of being a Lich is fair. Technically you could have a Ranger or Antipaladin as a Lich and Wizard or Sorcerer Vampires are common. It's a stereotype, not an actual advantage of the creature type. Ditto talk about being 11th level minimum.
In order to actually have this be a reasonable question you need to assume both as 11th level or higher full spellcasters, or the comparison stops being about Vampire and Lich and becomes something else entirely.
And, on a completely separate note, I always got the impression Liches stopped feeling the pleasurable sensations they felt in life, even if they still looked good, while vampires were very capable of indulging in sensual pleasures (though perhaps somewhat different ones from the ones they indulged in when alive). That's a pretty big notch in the vampire column in my book. As is the possibility of not being Evil or doing immoral things (both of which are necessary for the rituals to become a Lich).
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I will point out that Mythic Vampires are better than mythic Liches imo. They straight up overcome their weaknesses, get the ability to fly, energy drain multiple times a round, can AoE drain, and get some other cool tricks.
Mythic liches? They get SR, channel resistance, and 7 horcruxes instead of one along with other strange stuff.
Vamps get the better end for sure there.
would it be possible to be a ...ehhh
vampire lich?
like become a vampire and then do all the sacrifices and crap to become a lich?
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Vampires Can overcome weaknesses, but they've got to spend a lot more time/effort doing so. Either they have to become casters or they have to find one.
Look at the caster issue from a different direction. Anybody with the ability to become a lich had vampire as an option.
Not all vampires had the option to become a lich.
Assuming I am a caster of sufficient level to become a lich, I would choose vampire. This is personal preference. I just don't want to deal with a rotting body.
I don't think listing 'being a spellcaster' as an advantage of being a Lich is fair. Technically you could have a Ranger or Antipaladin as a Lich and Wizard or Sorcerer Vampires are common. It's a stereotype, not an actual advantage of the creature type. Ditto talk about being 11th level minimum.
True about the ranger or anti paladin, however, they cast spells therefore they are still spell casters.
Again. Liches Are spell casters. Vampires Can be, but it's not a requirement. You can have a 11th level vampire fighter, but you cannot have an 11th level lich fighter.
In order to actually have this be a reasonable question you need to assume both as 11th level or higher full spellcasters, or the comparison stops being about Vampire and Lich and becomes something else entirely.
I couldn't disagree with this more.
For a fair comparison I'm considering the out-of-the-box condition. Vampires are not automatically spell casters, liches are. Adding spell casting on top of vampire stuff skews the comparison and gives vamps an unfair advantage. Anything with a (insert casting stat) of 10 CAN be a spell caster, but few things automatically are.
And, on a completely separate note, I always got the impression Liches stopped feeling the pleasurable sensations they felt in life, even if they still looked good, while vampires were very capable of indulging in sensual pleasures (though perhaps somewhat different ones from the ones they indulged in when alive). That's a pretty big notch in the vampire column in my book. As is the possibility of not being Evil or doing immoral things (both of which are necessary for the rituals to become a Lich).
Perhaps and perhaps not. Regardless I'm sure there are spells to over come that. Even if it's a researched spell it's only a minor inconvenience as Liches are casters.
The only argument for Vampires seems to be "I want to be pretty and have nerve endings in my naughty bits." Though a valid argument, I still don't think all the downsides of being a vampire make it worth it.
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I couldn't disagree with this more.
For a fair comparison I'm considering the out-of-the-box condition. Vampires are not automatically spell casters, liches are. Adding spell casting on top of vampire stuff skews the comparison and gives vamps an unfair advantage. Anything with a (insert casting stat) of 10 CAN be a spell caster, but few things automatically are.
We're arguing which someone would rather be. The only way that even makes sense is if they had the option to be either, so clearly you get to be a spellcaster either way.
We're also arguing which template is best. If you're a Fighter, obviously Vampire is, so the argument again only makes sense if you are (or could be) a spellcaster.
And finally, this is an argument about which template is better to be, not what Pathfinder class it's better to be, and if we assume we're comparing non-spellcasting vampires to spellcasting liches, that just makes it into the martial vs. spellcaster debate.
Any way you look at it, the debate ceases to be meaningful or useful if you say "Liches are better because they can cast spells."
I couldn't disagree with this more.
For a fair comparison I'm considering the out-of-the-box condition. Vampires are not automatically spell casters, liches are. Adding spell casting on top of vampire stuff skews the comparison and gives vamps an unfair advantage. Anything with a (insert casting stat) of 10 CAN be a spell caster, but few things automatically are.
We're arguing which someone would rather be. The only way that even makes sense is if they had the option to be either, so clearly you get to be a spellcaster either way.
We're also arguing which template is best. If you're a Fighter, obviously Vampire is, so the argument again only makes sense if you are (or could be) a spellcaster.
And finally, this is an argument about which template is better to be, not what Pathfinder class it's better to be, and if we assume we're comparing non-spellcasting vampires to spellcasting liches, that just makes it into the martial vs. spellcaster debate.
Any way you look at it, the debate ceases to be meaningful or useful if you say "Liches are better because they can cast spells."
"Liches are better because they can cast spells." isn't my full argument or frankly even a very significant part of it. Spellcasting is, however, inherent to the lich template whereas it's not to the vampire. As you said, we're debating Templates, not classes.
My simplifies argument is that Vampires have too many downsides and liches don't. Hence i'd choose lich because they have fewer downsides and yes, they also happen to inherently be casters.
A vampire could be a level 1 commoner barmaid that a sire decided looked very good in that dress.
Don't you still become a Vampire Spawn with a static stat block if you don't have enough HD when turned?
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I'm going agree lich is probably better.
No bizarre addiction to fresh blood.
No bizarre folklore weaknesses like being unable to cross running water or an aversion to garlic. Especially sunlight and mirrors.
Easier to cheat death (there is no chaseable cloud or need to have a coffin nearby).
Sure, you'll miss the pleasures of the flesh, but frankly once your appetite and libido go away you won't miss them.
Vampires can create minions inherently, liches can't.
The flip side to this is that there is a good chance that if you're a vampire, you're a slave to a bigger vampire. Immortality without free will sucks. No pun intended.
Vampires can dominate mortals, liches can't. Vampires are inherently physically superior to mortals, liches aren't.
Liches can go out in the day, vampires can't.
Liches can cross running water, vampires can't.Liches can hide their soul in a private demiplane or on the other side of the world. Vampires need a coffin relatively nearby.
Liches can enter a structure without being invited. Vampires can't.
lich or a non controlled vampire.
Indeed, the whole vampires bursting into flames thing came from the movie Nosferatu.No sunlight issues either, I believe.In the original Bram Stoker, Dracula was perfectly capable of walking around during the daylight. He wasn't as strong as at night, but he didn't burst into flame either.
But basically all the vampiers of legend and not terrible fiction have a Shallow existence that they regret having.
So Lets keep to the vampire and Lich in the books for this.And i agree this is about what kind of undead you would prefer. If you had the choice so given the choice you also have the choice to be a vampire Spell caster if not then you ditent have the choice.
Edit: and as mentioned i would prefer to be level 20 wizard with the immortal discovery. But in dire need, to escape the judgement of afterlife, lichdom would be my undead existence of choice.
For corporeal undead, lich all the way, but for any undead, I like ghost, which is far too underused in the game.
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Edit: and as mentioned i would prefer to be level 20 wizard with the immortal discovery. But in dire need, to escape the judgement of afterlife, lichdom would be my undead existence of choice.
Ah, as the daily bestiary's examination mentioned, the lich is a spellcaster that has found, due to his limitations (often due to their ability to study in a single lifetime, but sometimes due to untreatable diseases or other factors that lead to a short lifespan), that they could not cut it in the academic and esoteric pursuits needed to attain such a goal. In the end, it is a conservative existence born from long struggle, consideration, and preparation.
Vampires, on the other hand, evolved from a symbol of disease and death into a metaphor for puberty with all its pitfalls and follies (Just like Spiderman!). Young, pretty people, who want (and actually can) stay that way for eternity rather than dealing with growing older, who then have to struggle with a new, mysterious, and frightening unquenchable 'hunger' aimed at another individual.
And we can all go back to films like Lost Boys (or I can at least; I grew up in a home with several teenage girls who grew up in the 80's), where vampries are a symbol of reckless youth chasing after an ideal that has much farther reaching consquences than they signed up for. The attempt to escape the uncertainty of adulthood actually makes the 'you can never go out during the day' attractive since you do not have to deal with a normal, boring job, and instead you just spend forever going to raves/dance clubs/Bacchanalia/where ever kids are going to dance, drink, and have one night stands these days. Of course...all this takes vampirism back to its status as a disease..... Your mother told you to always use Protection from Evil, or you would regret it....
So does all this turn the discussion into some youth vs. maturity thing?
Lich. And then spend centuries sleeping.
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I'd rather be a sexy mysterious vampire mans than a stiff rotten lich mans.
Sitting on a throne, throwing wine glasses at the floor, shouting "WHAT IS A MAN?" Good times...
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What about the jiang-shi vampire? Weaknesses are not nearly as nasty, pretty good set of abilities, but you have to hop everywhere and that is pretty hard to take seriously.
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Have to admit Vampire sorcerer sounds fun.
At the end of the day though, I would probably go for Lichom. The AD&D 2nd edition Lich lore is just so fun. PF liches are cool too though.
If we're assuming PF vampire, there is no need to feed on blood.
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If I were an evil spellcaster, I'd first find a way to disguise my alignment and then be adventuring with the good guys as a way of protecting myself from death. They'd be my bodyguards without knowing it, I'd have plot on my side, and if I was lucky, I'd be campaigning against Chaos or Law and not Evil anyways. Then I'd quest for true immortality in secret. If at some point I had to find a way to stay "alive" while also needing to die, I'd choose whichever was more available[probably Vampire, because Lichdom requires a lot more training and preparation then getting bitten].
As a Vampire, I'd probably find a way to overthrow my Vampire Overlord first, then find a way to travel from my Coffin [probably become a traveling Undertaker or find a way to hide it], then continue to advance as a Wizard with the Vampire template. At 19th level I'd get a Cleric to kill and resurrect me, and then next level I'd take the Immortality discovery.
As a Lich, I'd probably continually keep Gentle Repose on me and craft a magical item to cast it on me at will. I'd keep my Phylactery incredibly well hidden and protected, and still quest for the Immortality discovery at Twentieth level. At that point, I'd cast Wish [paying for it myself], possibly multiple times, to undo my lichdom and make me a living human immortal.
After that, whichever path I chose, I'd claim myself a God like Razmir and slowly conquer the planet.
It may seem like I am taking the "easy" way out of the question by not actually choosing Lich or Vampire and instead planning for both, but If I were and evil spellcaster, it wouldn't really matter. Here is what my morale would be if I were desperate enough to consider becoming a cannibalistic, unnatural shadow of a life form with magic.Oh, you poor dumb elf. Don't you get it? Become a Vampire, or a Ghost, or an Immortal with a paint-by-numbers in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below. So what this tells me is- that you are channeling the "raw unlimited energies" of two chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game. So MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumb@$$