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I returned to the original topic to look upon the reply and see if there was a reply to my post only to notice that
1) there was a lot of them, pages and pages. I did not expect that topic to be so prolific.
2) the topic eventually turned into people accusing each other of having fun the wrong way.
I still do think the topic was very interesting and deserved to be continued, so I hope it will be possible to go on with the discussion without the mods having nothing against it and the people involved in the topic turning it once again into a "My game is better than yours".
It's natural that everyone argues about their point of view on the issue, but that doesn't mean we can't respect others point of view.
That being said...
Anyway... I consider a characterwith a chaisma 3 like gollum.
pathetic, submissive and generally awkward.
My suggestion is to make clear what kind of character would result from low charisma. no matter how high your skills or level, you still are that creepy spineless self-loathing creature that creeps people out.
And it's not about beauty...(even if beauty without the proper attitude could be hard to be made apparent) but about personality.
The old an ugly veteran who barks orders is not low charisma.
The one who is to shy and spineless to give orders away is.It's not the 'being bad at social stuff' part of that description I disagree with, it's the bolded parts, that indicate the character as weak willed and self-loathing. That's...not part of Charisma at all. It's Wisdom, because, y'know, willpower.
The example you list seems entirely reasonable to me...but wouldn't be allowed in Scarletrose's game, at least not according to the post I was disagreeing with.
I'm not arguing Gollum's charisma wasn't bad (or even that certain parts of his personality weren't good examples for low Charisma), I'm arguing that wasn't his only bad stat and certainly wasn't the reason he was weak-willed.
I can see your point but I do disagree.
First of all I do agree on one point, Gollum is clearily plagued with several sub-par stats, and willpower is certainly one of them.But I also believe there are many facets of "willpower"
And I think Wisdom mainly involves itself in the passive part of willpower. The one that makes you resist to external stimulus.
While Charisma is more about the active part.
So to put them in contrast, a person with high charisma and low wisdom would be a person who's will is easily defeated.
He is easily stopped in his endeavors by fear, or temptation. He is easily distracted and put off tracks.
But still, he would have a huge driving force. He could be a coward maybe, but he is the kind of coward that runs from the problems when he faces opposition. Not the kind of coward that doesn't act upon his desires and ideals out of fear.
He can be easily swayed from his course, but until he is, he will put a lot of faith and determination in whatever he wants to do.
While a character with a high Wisdom and low charisma is quite the opposite. He's a person that is not easily swayed from his path. he is pretty much unfazed by intimidation or temptation.
But he has no strong driving force.
Is exactly the opposite of the high charisma low wisdom.
He is not an initiator. He is not the one to act upon his desires, is the one that think it would be good if something happened but doesn't bring himself to do anything to make it happen.
They lack initiative, and therefore they lack leadership.
That's why I feel low cha characters are usually the followers and high cha characters are usually the leaders.
Because high charisma characters have huge motivation and sense of purpose, while low charisma characters just don't and chances are they need to be ordered around to shake out of their lack of initiative.
While spineless goes two ways and i agree that many interpretations of spineless actually fall on wisdom, high or low charisma determine your force of personality and thus your attitude towards your goals.
Whenever something goes wrong the low charisma character will tend to brood and whine about how things were not fair with him while an high charisma character will swear he will get even with the world with burning determination.
Since people tried to point out for and against my case actual creatures with determinate scores, I would like to to the same but with a couple of little premises. Not to say "neener-neener I am right and you are wrong", no one is really right or wrong.
It's just a matter of making assumptions that have a certain consistency.
1) These kind of things are particularly noticeable on the extremes. I won't expect a 8 cha character to be much different from a 10 cha character. In any stat and any circumstance an 8 is slightly below average. I think no one should expect the 8 charisma character to be utterly devoid of driving force of personality.
2) The game is not and could never be a perfect rendition of human psychology. It is not and it never tried to be. every discussion about correlations between stats and personalities are to be considered intrinsically flawed. All we can attempt to do is to make as much sense as possible. Making perfect sense in every circumstance with one simple ruling is simply not in the cards.
Let's take the quintessential high-charisma monster. The succubus.
Her charisma is off the charts, how does it impact on her?
I can see her being scared, I can see her being tempted. But what I can't imagine a succubus doing is giving up upon her desires.
Being scared away from acting upon them? sure.
Being tempted in another course of action? yes.
Passively accepting that "well, my goals are not that important to me anyway"? No way.
She will always use every possible occasion to have it her way.
She can wave the white flag and concede the battle, but never the war.
Let's look at the opposite spectrum.
Constructs.
Usually Charisma 1
Lets' be specific and take one.
Stone golem
Charisma 1, Wisdom 11
Do they have a will? not really.
They get orders and they execute them. and they may be pretty unrelenting in the execution of orders.
but at charisma 1 they will never ever act upon their own will.
One may argue that they do so due the utter lack of intelligence or the fact that they are created and controlled.
So I offer you an alternative.
Undeads. Skeleton and zombies.
Both controllable, both without Intelligence.
Except they, unlike the golem, have an average charisma score.
When a golem is leaved without instructions and without a master to control them, what do they do? Nothing... they lack the drive to act upon any personal desire.
What does it happen to skeletons and zombies that are leaved to their own devices?
They act upon their hate of the living.
ok that's it...
Again I hope we can maintain a certain level of civility that doesn't requires the moderators to intervene again.
As a matter of fact, I do hope there are people that do not agree with me and that want's to expose a different point of view because that's what debating on an argument is all about. If we would all agree on everything there would be no point in debating at all.
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No.
Would this thread go better if we could title it "how to reward characters with high charisma?"
Would this thread go better if we could title it "how to reward characters with high charisma?"
How about how to punish characters with low whatevers. No matter what stat is low, you can target that weakness.
Would this thread go better if we could title it "how to reward characters with high charisma?"How about how to punish characters with low whatevers. No matter what stat is low, you can target that weakness.
I think the central problem with Charisma, is that unless you're a Charisma-based caster or a class with an important class feature that relies on Charisma, that Charisma does very little for you, and much less than all the other stats, so it's automatically a dump stat for a lot of classes.
The solution to this, I feel, is to emphasize Charisma so it either does more things or so that it seems more valuable so a player would consider either dumping something else (or just not dumping anything.)
Like charisma affects your social prowess which others pick up on and can change their starting attitudes or intentions towards you.
Being unfriendly towards the ugly guy who smells bad and wears shabby clothes over the decent looking clean noble who commands more respect through a presence of self.
This just opens up a whole DIFFERENT can of worms in terms of roleplaying, because people will feel that they're either being treated unfriendly in RP terms or they'll expect their high CHA characters to have extra perks.
Ultimately the solution is to do nothing - especially not institute any roadblocks to role playing.
Personally I think the game would be better off without a CHA stat but w/e. Pulling it out now would be even worse than a root canal without anesthetics so leave it as is.
Like charisma affects your social prowess which others pick up on and can change their starting attitudes or intentions towards you.
Being unfriendly towards the ugly guy who smells bad and wears shabby clothes over the decent looking clean noble who commands more respect through a presence of self.
charisma isn't about appearance, it is about presentation, authority, confidence, and presence. a cute little female sylph ranger can end up a complete wallflower due to her timid nature, which would hint a lack of confidence, or an ugly hobgoblin dictator could command an aura and presence of powerful authority
in these cases, they are reverse examples. the low charisma sylph ranger being the cute one, but her low charisma coming from her lack of confidence, and the hobgoblin dictator, being the ugly one, his charisma coming from his sheer arrogance
i personally prefer the method of appearance based alterations found in the savage worlds explorers edition. while you didn't need the attractive edge to be attractive, you could take the attractive edge as a means to utilize your appearance as a form of charm for a situational +2 to opponents whom found you attractive
another savage worlds example, the bloodthirsty hindrance; you took a -4 to charisma that affected taunt and persuasion due to your bloodlust, but it was reversed to a +4 for the purpose of intimidate due to your sadistic nature
another example, the overpowered Noble Edge, which basically combined attractive and rich into one edge. it tripled your starting gold as if you had the rich edge, but also gave you a +2 bonus to social rolls with those allied with your noble house.
Like charisma affects your social prowess which others pick up on and can change their starting attitudes or intentions towards you.
Being unfriendly towards the ugly guy who smells bad and wears shabby clothes over the decent looking clean noble who commands more respect through a presence of self.
This just opens up a whole DIFFERENT can of worms in terms of roleplaying, because people will feel that they're either being treated unfriendly in RP terms or they'll expect their high CHA characters to have extra perks.
Ultimately the solution is to do nothing - especially not institute any roadblocks to role playing.
Personally I think the game would be better off without a CHA stat but w/e. Pulling it out now would be even worse than a root canal without anesthetics so leave it as is.
i don't like the way the Charisma stat works in d20. i like the way they did it in savage worlds. they made charisma a derived value and most edges or hindrances that modified charisma were circumstantial and rarely passive. charisma was treated there, the way armor class and saving throws are in d20. it wasn't a core statistic.
Dictating how others must roleplay, and constant picking on characters with a low score, can be summed up in one line.
DM dick move.
so true
dictating how a player must describe their character based on your percieved standards of beauty is also a DM dick move. why can't my adorable sylph street magician be an urban ranger with 7 charisma? she does card tricks, not real magic, decent in combat, mostly due to an increased exertion of her hollow frame to keep up with stronger foes. it's not that she is more muscular than she appears, it is that she pushes her frame more to emulate a higher level of strength via leverage.
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appearance is merely fluff. why should a random statistic determine the cosmetic parameters of my characters? are you one of those people whom are going to tell my that my character can't have specific purely cosmetic features without a specific charisma score?
Roleplay your stats however you want at my table.
The CRB dictates the mechanical benefits/penalties for all stats.
Your 5CHA PC will still have a -3 on CHA checks no matter how fancy the player makes his heart rending plea not to be stomped.
Likewise the shy player with the stammer with the 20CHA PC will still get a +5 on CHA no matter how tongue-tied the player gets.
NB: I'd change the title of the thread.
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appearance is merely fluff. why should a random statistic determine the cosmetic parameters of my characters? are you one of those people whom are going to tell my that my character can't have specific purely cosmetic features without a specific charisma score?Personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead is fluff. Why should a random statistic determine any of these parameters of my characters?
Perhaps because this is what the game system is telling you it does. This doesn't mean you have to use it at your table, but it's clearly written that that's what it does and is the intent of the game designers.
i will agree that personality is fluff, but personal magnetism and ability to lead actually have hard coded mechanics that actually impact a handful of key rolls both inside and outside of combat, while personality and appearance do not.
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RAAAAAAAASK!!! Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!!
Please keep in mind that this forum is intended to provide assistance and suggestions to other community members, and is not a platform for debates on rules, drama from other sections of the paizo.com messageboards, sniping, or soapboxing. Posts that don't answer the question/don't contribute advice aren't helpful.
How to punish characters with low charisma
Dictating how others must roleplay, and constant picking on characters with a low score, can be summed up in one line.
DM dick move.
Putting that all together, telling people how to roleplay or smacking players for lower scores as a jihad against perceived evildoing by naughty people who dump stats is comical yet painful to watch. Either are ill-advised.
A single feat being leadership has to do with personal magnetism and ability to lead, but it's really the feat that does it. You don't get cohorts from having high charisma so personal magnetism is now feat dependent along with ability to lead being a role playing aspect. If you role play antagonistic to your cohort he leaves you. Charisma won't stop that.i will agree that personality is fluff, but personal magnetism and ability to lead actually have hard coded mechanics that actually impact a handful of key rolls both inside and outside of combat, while personality and appearance do not.appearance is merely fluff. why should a random statistic determine the cosmetic parameters of my characters? are you one of those people whom are going to tell my that my character can't have specific purely cosmetic features without a specific charisma score?Personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead is fluff. Why should a random statistic determine any of these parameters of my characters?
Perhaps because this is what the game system is telling you it does. This doesn't mean you have to use it at your table, but it's clearly written that that's what it does and is the intent of the game designers.
sounds like the only things charisma are really good for outside of a bunch of supernatural class abilities, are use magic device, diplomacy, bluff and intimidate. because handle animal is useless unless you are a mounted combatant.
Please keep in mind that this forum is intended to provide assistance and suggestions to other community members, and is not a platform for debates on rules, drama from other sections of the paizo.com messageboards, sniping, or soapboxing. Posts that don't answer the question/don't contribute advice aren't helpful.How to punish characters with low charismaPutting that all together, telling people how to roleplay or smacking players for lower scores as a jihad against perceived evildoing by naughty people who dump stats is comical yet painful to watch. Either are ill-advised.Dictating how others must roleplay, and constant picking on characters with a low score, can be summed up in one line.
DM dick move.
dumping a stat or 2 down to 7 or even 5 isn't bad depending on the build and the stat or 2 being dumped. as long as they make sense for the character. but dumping 3 stats should generally be a no-no. a sickly half-nymph with a 5 strength and 7 constitution due to her frailty derived from illness, isn't an issue, a knowitall with no social skills and no common sense whom beefed up intelligence at the cost of wisdom and charisma is also fine.
If you want more light than heat why on earth did you choose this thread title? Talking about punishing players will confuse the issue if what you actually want is to discuss the meaning of a low charisma stat.
If I'm misunderstanding and you do want to punish players, you'll be getting what you deserve with this thread.
You're applying the exact same logic of "charisma affects the listed definition items" and applying it to another stat now. Why is your nymph sickly because of the low str and con? The mechanics don't say you're sickly just that you can't carry as much weight as some people and you can't march as long as others.dumping a stat or 2 down to 7 or even 5 isn't bad depending on the build and the stat or 2 being dumped. as long as they make sense for the character. but dumping 3 stats should generally be a no-no. a sickly half-nymph with a 5 strength and 7 constitution due to her frailty derived from illness, isn't an issue, a knowitall with no social skills and no common sense whom beefed up intelligence at the cost of wisdom and charisma is also fine.Please keep in mind that this forum is intended to provide assistance and suggestions to other community members, and is not a platform for debates on rules, drama from other sections of the paizo.com messageboards, sniping, or soapboxing. Posts that don't answer the question/don't contribute advice aren't helpful.How to punish characters with low charismaPutting that all together, telling people how to roleplay or smacking players for lower scores as a jihad against perceived evildoing by naughty people who dump stats is comical yet painful to watch. Either are ill-advised.Dictating how others must roleplay, and constant picking on characters with a low score, can be summed up in one line.
DM dick move.
the sickliness is a trapping or descriptive factor for her low strength and constitution, and actually makes mechanical sense, a low fortitude save means the equivalent to a lousy immune system, which means more vulnerable to disease.
To be honest in a game like this where you can get 26 charisma or more, I'm more inclined to let the players rp and fluff however they want and just use the stats for dice rolls. Especially in point buy where people feel like they have to dump to keep up in an 'arms race.' They can rp how they want and the dice will do the rest.
edit: That said, I understand where Auren is coming from and agree. There is a line where it just goes into cheese, but it is up to the groups to decide what flies and what doesn't.
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I am simply enraged at them self-righteous *sshats who simply outright declare that any PC, with any score, whatsoever, that is below 10, is the result of some powergaming douche, who is only out to "roll-play".
This is untrue, and this is going to sound terribly harsh, but you have to be an ignorant jerk to declare that this is always true.
Seriously, can you call the 7 Constitution Rogue, the result of a powergamer?
I actually feel my hand stiffening, in preparation of a b*tch slap to those who promote this ridiculously false stereotype.
When it comes to Charisma a lot of it is fluff, but i feel there is a layer of "fluff" over the game mechanics.
You can have your character behave and look exactly what you want despite the stats, but the results of the score might infulence on how others view your character.
Despite the good looks, a low charisma might have others view you as kind of a doll that you might be a little "too perfect" or that your beauty of character instead make others jealous and thus passive-aggressive against you as a result.
While a good charisma with good looks will make you seem innocent and "cute" and people are more relaxed by your looks and seem to feel like that you dont look down on them.
So Charisma for me is that you can look and behave as what you like, but the reaction of your peers and the skills in such might be defined to your score initially and then might improve or worsen after longer convorsation or reputation.
( A good leader with low charisma might be a ruff warlord with no sense of morality, but his previous victories and battles have proved him to be a better leader than the bard that hides under a wagon despite his +5 charisma score. )
My Druid/Barbarian has 7 CHA, partly because I reduced it and partly because it was reduced by racial modifiers (okami - wolf-based kitsune variant and essentially played as a werewolf).
I play her as wary of outsiders, unwilling to compromise her beliefs, incredible touchy about honour, and generally prickly and condescending towards humanoids (whom she somewhat regards as simply intelligent prey animals).
I assume her human-form appearance to be normal, albeit grubby and covered in Celtic tattoos. No question of being ugly.
Another character I played, however, was an Urgathoa oracle with the Wasting curse, half of her face was horribly disfigured by a pustulent disease (it was all very 'Phantom of the Opera' with strong perfumes). In that case the CHA was actually some way above average but the character took a hit to all CHA skills (except Intimidate). She was imposing but disgusting.
In that case, a high-CHA character had a low appearance.
Sadurian: I really hope the oracle got a mask on that face to complete the "Phantom"
I am simply enraged at them self-righteous *sshats who simply outright declare that any PC, with any score, whatsoever, that is below 10, is the result of some powergaming douche, who is only out to "roll-play".
This is untrue, and this is going to sound terribly harsh, but you have to be an ignorant jerk to declare that this is always true.
Seriously, can you call the 7 Constitution Rogue, the result of a powergamer?
I actually feel my hand stiffening, in preparation of a b*tch slap to those who promote this ridiculously false stereotype.
Sounds like an opportunity to gain some objective data on the subject. People should be able to answer two questions:
1. How low did you drop your Cha and why?
2. How did you play your character?
I'm not intending to say anyone is doing it wrong, but I think the answers could be interesting.
1. How low did you drop your Cha and why?
2. How did you play your character?
1: I dropped my Charisma to 20, because i ran out of fancy ways to buff my main stat on my oracle.
2: Positive and helpful leadertype that is striving to be taken seriously despite the spirits that haunt her have other plans.
I am simply outraged that i needed to dump my charisma so low so that i only could be "balanced" in line with the party!
/Sarcasm
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@Scarletrose:
I feel like I should respond, given it's me you're basically arguing with, so to briefly sum up my argument with what you're saying:
Charisma is what you use to motivate other people. It's not a measure of what motivates you, or the degree to which it does. That part is roleplaying, and thus not stat based at all. Look at Harsk, he's got Charisma 6, but he's an extremely dedicated vengeance-seeker (or was for a while there).
And, if it were stat-based, it'd pretty clearly be more Wisdom than anything else given that being fanatically devoted to a religion or other belief system to the point where it gives you magic powers is Wisdom based, and if that's not being motivated, I don't know what is.
Your examples are exceedingly flawed. Succubi aren't highly motivated because they have high Charisma, they're highly motivated because they are demons and thus literally made of sin...lust in their case. And using mindless creatures as evidence for much of anything is a really poor example to boot.
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1. How low did you drop your Cha and why?
2. How did you play your character?
1. The only time I dump Charisma is when I can use something else on social skills instead. I enjoy social stuff too much for it to be otherwise. The one character I've actually dumped it on (a Conversion Inquisitor) I went down to a 7.
2. On that one character, I played him as immensely charming and eloquent (as befit the Conversion thing)...and covered in horrific burn scars (to explain the low Charisma). My other characters are pretty much all fairly high-Charisma and played as such.
It strikes me that after all this, it may actually be easier to see Charisma as just how others treat you, what impact you have when you say something, if they are interested in you, and so on. That way, you can dump down as far as you like, and the GM will make the world treat you according to your Charisma. Something tells me this isn't going to fly either. :-)
Note also that if this is the model for it, it should go for everyone else in the world too. There will be face characters, and everyone else will have a 7 Charisma. Not that you could tell by just looking at them, or seeing how they interact with others, which is which. Someone's Charisma is only ever expressed through dice-rolling situations.
It strikes me that after all this, it may actually be easier to see Charisma as just how others treat you, what impact you have when you say something, if they are interested in you, and so on. That way, you can dump down as far as you like, and the GM will make the world treat you according to your Charisma. Something tells me this isn't going to fly either. :-)
I see that as 50% of the stat, and the other 50% being the character itself.
So you can be well-spoken and good looking, but your peers just call out on your bullshit or you are mindnumbingly boring.
I see charisma as the attribute you are least conscious of usually. When I GM I treat any characters with a charisma penalty as giving off some degree of a "there is something wrong with me" vibe and characters with a charisma bonus as giving some degree of an "I'm cool" vibe.
I don't particularly care how the players see their own characters, the world reacts to the charisma score unless you are proactive. It is entirely possible to use social skills to offset the low charisma, but only when you are proactive. When I need to have an NPC approach the party, I much more often have them pick a high charisma character than a low charisma one.
I like the way the system has mechanics for social interaction, it allows shy players to have outgoing characters and it quickly identifies the players who are trying to have their cake and eat it too by not taking social skills and trying to use their out of game charisma to cover for it.
Love the thread title. Cant wait for part 3- RELOADED.
I am simply enraged at them self-righteous *sshats who simply outright declare that any PC, with any score, whatsoever, that is below 10, is the result of some powergaming douche, who is only out to "roll-play".
This is untrue, and this is going to sound terribly harsh, but you have to be an ignorant jerk to declare that this is always true.
Seriously, can you call the 7 Constitution Rogue, the result of a powergamer?
I actually feel my hand stiffening, in preparation of a b*tch slap to those who promote this ridiculously false stereotype.
false stereotype? I have at least two regular players I would like to introduce you to. Our experiences run quite contrary to each other.
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I think this question first needs to resolve what is charisma and what does it affect. The main argument that got heated in the last thread was that stats should/shouldn't have an impact on how you should role play. One school of thought was that stats are independent of role play and only govern the mechanics. The other was that stats are integrated into the character at a basic level and not just to govern the mechanics.
So, at your table do stats affect role playing in a sense that a low charisma leaves you socially awkward and should be reflected upon or can you be socially awesome with that 5 charisma?
Yes it does, and it doesn't mean that I think the other way around is wrong. Those are simply choices.
"No, you roleplay my way".
Yeah, that is a terrible thing for any DM to do.
I agree. The point is not about saying players "you roleplay my way" but rather "you distribute stats my way".
And to be honest not even that.Is giving the players a conscious choice when they create their characters.
If you want more light than heat why on earth did you choose this thread title? Talking about punishing players will confuse the issue if what you actually want is to discuss the meaning of a low charisma stat.
If I'm misunderstanding and you do want to punish players, you'll be getting what you deserve with this thread.
It's merely the continuation of another topic with that Title. And I do agree on the fact that "punishing players" is stupid.
Reminds me of the time when I was 14 and I knew a lot of DM that were essentially playing to kill off as many PCs as possible.@Scarletrose:
I feel like I should respond, given it's me you're basically arguing with, so to briefly sum up my argument with what you're saying:
Charisma is what you use to motivate other people. It's not a measure of what motivates you, or the degree to which it does. That part is roleplaying, and thus not stat based at all. Look at Harsk, he's got Charisma 6, but he's an extremely dedicated vengeance-seeker (or was for a while there).
And, if it were stat-based, it'd pretty clearly be more Wisdom than anything else given that being fanatically devoted to a religion or other belief system to the point where it gives you magic powers is Wisdom based, and if that's not being motivated, I don't know what is.
Your examples are exceedingly flawed. Succubi aren't highly motivated because they have high Charisma, they're highly motivated because they are demons and thus literally made of sin...lust in their case. And using mindless creatures as evidence for much of anything is a really poor example to boot.
Actually I would say that Harsk is another great example. If you look at his background its whole focal point is an event that happened because of his lack of drive. He was not convinced about following his brother until a few days later.
As for the divine magic, in pathfinder is clearly shifting more towards charisma. See oracles and paladins. But again ... passively sticking to your faith rather than religious <zeal, I think it should indeed represent wisdom.
I would say that is the contrary. it's not that they are highly motivated because they are demons, without charisma playing a part in it.
I would say they are literally made of sins, they have high motivations, and thus their charisma reflects that.
When a creature lacks those qualities you can usually see that on their charisma score.
In the end, I am not advocating for making things hard for the 8 charisma character as someone suggested (if you have 8 charisma people spit on your food and you need to make a disease fortitude save)
I'm simply saying ... you want to be an inspirational leader?
Don't be the guy who dumps charisma to 7 and has a -2 racial malus on charisma on top.
In my game, when you do, the other player in your party who has a definite higher charisma is going to be followed because he is attracting the people around him. Not your character.
Now .. charisma 5 is probably the point when things start to get noticeably ugly and in my game a character with charisma 5 will either have heavy issues of self loathing or pathological shyness.
But is should never be a unplayable character, and having a score of 8 should be basically indistinguishable from a character with 10.
I had characters with abysmal charisma before. Charisma 6. A half-ogre monk.
I made him aware about what it meant in my game and he consciously made a character with charisma 6. And to be honest for the concept he had in mind (A feral beast, used to a simple life in the wilderness. who has been caged and freed by the party who now he consider his masters, like an animal would) I would have been more than fine with an ever lower charisma.
I'm not even usually stingy with point buy. I think I never gave less than 20 points. sometimes I give 25.
That way low charisma is a choice, not a "necessity".
As a matter of fact, when I do play with other DMs that treat the game like I do I make it a point to dump a stat, not for the sake of min/max but rather to incorporate a flaw that fleshes out the character.
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Here's the thing:
There is absolutely no justification for your point of view in either the rules or thematics of Pathfinder, and I find it annoying and unrealistic. A lot of really motivated, dedicated, people are not likable or impressive seeming in the least and I feel like making low-Charisma people inherently self-loathing and unmotivated is a deep disservice to people like this, and an awful idea on just about every possible level to boot.
GMs do not get to decide that a PCs motivations are inappropriate to their stats. That's not how the game works at all.
As for the specific examples, Harsk was quite motivated early in life, to stay out of the underground and in the woods, for example. And my point was that all Demons (except maybe Dretches, whose sin is sloth) are every bit as motivated as Succubi...including those with Charisma scores ten or more points lower than hers.
Let's look at Ogres for a second. Ogres, like succubi, are creatures of great appetites and motivation (even similar ones in many ways...unholy lust is a big thing among Ogres)...and Ogres have Cha 7.
I'm not arguing that a low-Charisma character makes a good inspirational leader, they don't. But it's the skill and force of personality to lead they lack, not motivation or desire to do something about a problem.
And again, you come up with specific mandates on how people roleplay a low stat, which I consider unwise and inappropriate. Saying they need to roleplay a low stat somehow? Sure. Dictating how? Not appropriate for a GM to do, IMO.
The problem with things proposed in threads like this is that it becomes perfectly reasonable for a player to ask the GM, "How low can I make stat X before you force me to play a jerk?"
"This is how you play the game" authorities stepping in like this and seeking to punish others for playing the game wrong is half of what this forum is used for these days. Without posters like scarletrose I'd have no idea what was acceptable to do in this game other than reading the rulebook, and where would we be if we only played by what was written down?
Taking your own opinions and forcing others to live by them is the stuff religion is made of, but now it's stock and trade with pathfinder and the supremacist population policing for "badwrongfun".
If I were in a game where a GM went after charisma dumping with this sort of witch hunt shenanigan I'd totally make a 7 charisma (no wait, 5 charisma dwarf!) party face (conversion inquisition) and continuously remind the GM of it on every social interaction roll.
If there is anything you should've learned from the first thread, it's that making a topic about punishing the people you're gaming with is inflammatory and will be poorly received.