The grabbing the edge interpretation is actually supported in Acrobatics with the jump check. If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, you make a Reflex save, DC 20 to grab the other side. Period. The fact that this is a skill failure, followed by a second chance Save roll mirrors the Save failure followed by a second chance skill roll. The fact that catching or slipping from the edge of the pit (not the Reflex for it opening under a target, which is fair) is based on a Reflex rather than an Acrobatics check for balance, is poor design which should just use the already in-game rolls for sloping ground.
If they fail that reflex save, can they immediately try and "catch themselves from falling (DC 0 (flat ground) + 10)"?
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Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.
@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?
The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.
Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.The climb check is based on the surface you are climbing.
The guy in the pit area when the spell is cast is climbing the wall, not the slope.
Diego, you are usually spot on with rules so I've enjoyed reading your posts for some time but I'm going to disagree with you here.
The guy is not in the pit when he's trying to climb, he's over the pit trying to avoid falling into it. That is straight from the spell description and the skill description. ALL of this discussion has been about what's happening BEFORE he's in the pit.
I'd like you to take 5 minutes and think about a simple question for me based on this statement you just made. The one where you say you have to be in the area of what you are climbing instead of just adjacent to it.
How do you climb a 5' thick castle wall? It completely fills the square it's in so you can't enter that square so you can't climb it.
Climbing is ALWAYS started adjacent to the surface you are trying to climb and with the successful climb check you then move into that square. Nothing else makes any sense.
Create Pit is awesome. I'm not sure why this is an argument about climbing instead of a discussion of how cool Create Pit is. This spell may be making some people's combats boring, but not ours. I will never forget the time the ogre awesome blowed my oracle 15 ft back into a Create Pit with 2 goblins stuck in it knocking me out and the paladin had to jump in to save me from getting killed, it was epic! We love following up Create Pit with Wall of Ice. Have fun breaking the ice with your head at the end of the pit spell. For the truly sadistic you could leave a horizontal Wall of Stone over the top.
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Diego, you are usually spot on with rules so I've enjoyed reading your posts for some time but I'm going to disagree with you here.
The guy is not in the pit when he's trying to climb, he's over the pit trying to avoid falling into it. That is straight from the spell description and the skill description. ALL of this discussion has been about what's happening BEFORE he's in the pit.
I'd like you to take 5 minutes and think about a simple question for me based on this statement you just made. The one where you say you have to be in the area of what you are climbing instead of just adjacent to it.
How do you climb a 5' thick castle wall? It completely fills the square it's in so you can't enter that square so you can't climb it.
Climbing is ALWAYS started adjacent to the surface you are trying to climb and with the successful climb check you then move into that square. Nothing else makes any sense.
A hole appear under you. You are a few feet from a slope. On what surface are you? The hole.
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I think I changed my mind back to my original opinion... The spell does say the target falls if he fails his Reflex save. The Climb check is to avoid falling, but you can't avoid something that already happened, so no Climb check. This also seems to match RAI. I don't think a developer would create a line of spells that can be circumvented by a DC 10 Climb check that you get for free every time you fail a save.
Honestly, I'd like a FAQ here.
Piggybacking off of Gregory...
The Big, Bad Necromancer villain in our game didn't look so big and bad anymore after I dropped a "Create Pit" directly under his fast zombie horse!
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It indeed can be a pain, our summoner made a pit in a 10' hallway and my bard greased the slope edge next to the enemies trapped on their side of the pit! We thought it was great but the the DM who had to track all this plus the web spell the bad guys put up was less ethusiastic. But my and the summoner were webbed and needed to stay out of melee. The barbarian was mightily frustrated as well. The battle went on for a long time and we won easily because we could prep much better than the enemy. But it was complicaTED.
If he's tossing Web at you, he can't complain if you toss Pit. Web is a order of magnitude more complicated than Create Pit.
This is a rare thing for me to say, but... I'm inclined to agree with DrDeth.
That said, I think some clarification is in order. A FAQ would be welcome;
Couldn't hurt, no. This is a very popular spell, and this isn't some weird corner case that never comes up in IRL table-top games.
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Create Pit is awesome. I'm not sure why this is an argument about climbing instead of a discussion of how cool Create Pit is. This spell may be making some people's combats boring, but not ours. I will never forget the time the ogre awesome blowed my oracle 15 ft back into a Create Pit with 2 goblins stuck in it knocking me out and the paladin had to jump in to save me from getting killed, it was epic! We love following up Create Pit with Wall of Ice. Have fun breaking the ice with your head at the end of the pit spell. For the truly sadistic you could leave a horizontal Wall of Stone over the top.
Seeing our poor paladin trapped between 2 pits side by side while under attack by a necromancer/mystic theurge on the other side of one pit was at the same time awesome and terrific. We are low on ranged attack capabilities and it was the end of 2 longs days for the characters so we were don on resources (as he did spent all the night studding some diaries with important informations my magus was unable to recover his spells or arcana points) so we could do very little. Our oracle (the same one that can fly out of a paper bag) tried black tentacles, but the enemy had a freedom of movement spell running, so he made the situation worse, not better.
In the end we won but it was a hairy thing.I have no problem with create pit but I dislike most of the higher level versions. Too many questionable things in how they work.
BTW the wall of stone thing is one of the questionable things. Where are you anchoring it? The pit walls aren't real, so you can't anchor it there.
The terrain above the pit? There is the problem of the slopes. If they are a physical slope (and not some strange effect of the extradimensional space) extending 5' around the pit the guy into the pit can leave the area from the sides when he slowly rise up. You could cover the pit and surrounding area with the Wall of Stone, but then you have to buttress the wall of stone as it cover a 20'x20' area. That reduce the AoE by half and require a CL of 32 ....
Even if you rule that you only need to cover the 10'x10' hole, A Wall of stone is 1" thick for every 4 levels of the caster. 5" at most (CL 20). Hardness 8 and 75 hp. DC 30 strength check to bust it. Way less if the CL is lower. Not an impossible obstacle and surely not an automatic kill.
For those saying you can catch yourself on the slope, how do you deal with the ramifications of your interpretation?
More specifically, does this mean you can now catch yourself whenever you fall down a more conventional pit trap with a DC 10 climb check? Are you saying this is intentional?
No. The DC 10 is for a slope. Catching yourself on the edge of a pit trap requires a DC 45! Climb check. "Catch Yourself When Falling: It's practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling, yet if you wish to attempt such a difficult task, you can make a Climb check (DC = wall's DC + 20) to do so. It's much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope's DC + 10)."
So yeah, if you have a climb skill that would make a Monkey goggle in open mouthed amazement, one above even most Wuxia heroes, sure. Even a 20th level PC with a maxed out Climb would not find that DC trivial.
At that point in time, a simple pit trap should not be much of an obstacle.
@WROY - Incorrect, keep reading the climb rules.
"Catch Yourself When Falling," along with, "Accelerated Climbing, Make Your Own Handholds and Footholds, and Catch a Falling Character While Climbing," are all subsections under the primary description/rules of climbing. That usually means they are sub-rules only used while the main rules are being applied, e.g. while climbing. Three of the four subsections are virtually incapable of being interpreted as applying while not climbing.
I can see how and why one would interpret the ability to catch yourself when falling to apply to any falling situation and not just when climbing, but you can't just dismiss my interpretation as clearly incorrect. I mean, you can, but my point has at least enough validity to be considered. Show me a FAQ or something where the Climb skill has been spelled out as allowing (or not) a character to catch themselves on a surface while falling, regardless of whether that fall was caused by a failed Climb check while climbing.
BTW the wall of stone thing is one of the questionable things. Where are you anchoring it? The pit walls aren't real, so you can't anchor it there.
The terrain above the pit? There is the problem of the slopes. If they are a physical slope (and not some strange effect of the extradimensional space) extending 5' around the pit the guy into the pit can leave the area from the sides when he slowly rise up. You could cover the pit and surrounding area with the Wall of Stone, but then you have to buttress the wall of stone as it cover a 20'x20' area. That reduce the AoE by half and require a CL of 32 ....
Even if you rule that you only need to cover the 10'x10' hole, A Wall of stone is 1" thick for every 4 levels of the caster. 5" at most (CL 20). Hardness 8 and 75 hp. DC 30 strength check to bust it. Way less if the CL is lower. Not an impossible obstacle and surely not an automatic kill.
Which is exactly why we use a Wall of Ice, it is easier to adjudicate, easier to anchor and the spell tells you what happens when it is breached. The only GM fiat is figuring out what happens when the ground moves you into the wall, as opposed to that and figuring out how a broken wall acts. I wish the spell designer would have given a little more thought to what happens when you cover the pit.
No. The DC 10 is for a slope. Catching yourself on the edge of a pit trap requires a DC 45! Climb check.For those saying you can catch yourself on the slope, how do you deal with the ramifications of your interpretation?
More specifically, does this mean you can now catch yourself whenever you fall down a more conventional pit trap with a DC 10 climb check? Are you saying this is intentional?
What they're trying to say is that "the edge of a pit trap" "is a slope" and therefore subject to the DC 10 check.
(Which I disagree with)
And I'd still like an answer to this question:
;)
The grabbing the edge interpretation is actually supported in Acrobatics with the jump check. If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, you make a Reflex save, DC 20 to grab the other side. Period.If they fail that reflex save, can they immediately try and "catch themselves from falling (DC 0 (flat ground) + 10)"?
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Their is this kewl ability. Its called pride. It keeps one from never being wrong. Also it always goes before a fall. No reflex save on that either.
No. The DC 10 is for a slope. Catching yourself on the edge of a pit trap requires a DC 45! Climb check.For those saying you can catch yourself on the slope, how do you deal with the ramifications of your interpretation?
More specifically, does this mean you can now catch yourself whenever you fall down a more conventional pit trap with a DC 10 climb check? Are you saying this is intentional?
What they're trying to say is that "the edge of a pit trap" "is a slope" and therefore subject to the DC 10 check.
(Which I disagree with)
And I disagree also. I do think you can catch yourself when falling, but when the pit is created under you you don't use the slope DC10.
Their is this kewl ability. Its called pride. It keeps one from never being wrong. Also it always goes before a fall. No reflex save on that either.
I don't think this really contributed to the conversation.
But it was funny.
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Which is exactly why we use a Wall of Ice, it is easier to adjudicate, easier to anchor and the spell tells you what happens when it is breached. The only GM fiat is figuring out what happens when the ground moves you into the wall, as opposed to that and figuring out how a broken wall acts. I wish the spell designer would have given a little more thought to what happens when you cover the pit.BTW the wall of stone thing is one of the questionable things. Where are you anchoring it? The pit walls aren't real, so you can't anchor it there.
The terrain above the pit? There is the problem of the slopes. If they are a physical slope (and not some strange effect of the extradimensional space) extending 5' around the pit the guy into the pit can leave the area from the sides when he slowly rise up. You could cover the pit and surrounding area with the Wall of Stone, but then you have to buttress the wall of stone as it cover a 20'x20' area. That reduce the AoE by half and require a CL of 32 ....
Even if you rule that you only need to cover the 10'x10' hole, A Wall of stone is 1" thick for every 4 levels of the caster. 5" at most (CL 20). Hardness 8 and 75 hp. DC 30 strength check to bust it. Way less if the CL is lower. Not an impossible obstacle and surely not an automatic kill.
There is a internet icon for Thumbs Up in appreciation? ;-)
Their is this kewl ability. Its called pride. It keeps one from never being wrong. Also it always goes before a fall. No reflex save on that either.I don't think this really contributed to the conversation.
But it was funny.
I was trying to bring some levity to the situation.
There is a internet icon for Thumbs Up in appreciation? ;-)
Yes, it's called the +1 button:
http://s28.postimg.org/kfgsn1w3h/Capture.png
I was trying to bring some levity to the situation.
Levity is definitely a good solution to create pit.
In my home game, I've bumped up the spell level of all create pit spells by 1. That seems to do the trick for me.
I think this is a good solution, but were I to do it, part of the change would be to remove the option of simply climbing out. We ARE talking about an extra dimensional space here, not a tunnel bored into the earth.
No, no, that's levitation.Levity is definitely a good solution to create pit.
I was trying to bring some levity to the situation.
Depends on how you utilize the levity. If you combine it with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bad Puns), it can make create pit a very bad idea!
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I don't see any issue with someone using the climb rules to catch themselves when falling as long as square they are in has an adjacent wall to catch themselves on. This seems fine whether it is from a fall while climbing, a fall into a pit trap or a fall into a create pit spell. The DC is high enough that they either have to be climb specialists (in which case it seems reasonable) or very lucky (in which case it seems cool) or more likely both.
Now the idea that you can use the slope rules when you are falling vertically in a square that has an adjacent slope seems to me to be a complete misread. The climb rules for catching yourself on a slope is when you fail to climb a slope by enough that it causes you to fall. You are falling on the slope, in other words the square you are in is sloped.
I do think it is a legitimate question of whether you can catch yourself on the slope if you fail the reflex save caused by ending your turn adjacent to the create pit spell. However, since it says that if you fail that save you are falling into the pit, my read is that the reflex save is the only roll you get before you are falling in the pit (and thus facing a very high DC to catch yourself).
Now, if someone was climbing out of the pit, and ended their turn on the edge after a climb, I wouldn't use the reflex save at all, in that case the climb check for the slope would be more appropriate. The reflex save for the slope seems to me to apply to ending your turn in that square via normal movement in combat, not climbing. Similarly, I wouldn't expect anything with a climb speed to have to make that check either, although strictly the spell doesn't exempt them.
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Depends on how you utilize the levity. If you combine it with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bad Puns), it can make create pit a very bad idea!No, no, that's levitation.Levity is definitely a good solution to create pit.
I was trying to bring some levity to the situation.
It is a finess weapon utilizing your charisma modifier.
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It's like this thread was made just for you, Create Mr. Pitt.
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Don't forget that if you fail a climb check by less than 5, you can make a DC 20 reflex save to grab the edge!
If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, you make a Reflex save, DC 20 to grab the other side. Period.
But if you fail that, that's ok too! You're still falling and can still make a Climb check to catch yourself!
Which, if you fail it, you get a DC 20 reflex save...
Wouldn't jumping 11 feet put you one foot past the hole?
edit- didn't know that about the skill bonus from fly speeds. I've been running that wrong. Though it makes me wonder what the point of mentioning maneuverability in flight spells is.
Exact. You need to clear a 10' hole, not jump 10'. So you need to start before the 10' hole and end your jump on the other side.
About fly: the text of the sell hasn't changed from the 3.X to Pathfinder, but Pathfinder has added the fly skill.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Jumping 10' should clear a 10' hole, i.e. launching from the edge of the pit (the 0' mark, if you will) and landing on the far edge (the 10' mark). Unless you want the character to jump 1' before the actual pit? A 10' gap should be cleared by a 10' jump.
Overall it's a minor point though.
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I haven't run into significant issues with create pit, as it quickly loses effectiveness with flight/high saves/open battlegrounds/etc. The higher-level versions are rarely worth preparing, considering what else you can do at that level.
I think the spell writer didn't consider the climbing rules while making the spell. I've never seen the 'catch yourself' idea used, and pits certainly haven't broken anything in my games.
I still wish some were bigger though. A 15' pit for a 4th level spell would be pretty nice.
I still wish some were bigger though. A 15' pit for a 4th level spell would be pretty nice.
And its not eligible for Widen Spell, is it?
No. The DC 10 is for a slope. Catching yourself on the edge of a pit trap requires a DC 45! Climb check.For those saying you can catch yourself on the slope, how do you deal with the ramifications of your interpretation?
More specifically, does this mean you can now catch yourself whenever you fall down a more conventional pit trap with a DC 10 climb check? Are you saying this is intentional?
What they're trying to say is that "the edge of a pit trap" "is a slope" and therefore subject to the DC 10 check.
(Which I disagree with)
And I'd still like an answer to this question:
;)The grabbing the edge interpretation is actually supported in Acrobatics with the jump check. If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, you make a Reflex save, DC 20 to grab the other side. Period.If they fail that reflex save, can they immediately try and "catch themselves from falling (DC 0 (flat ground) + 10)"?
Actually it is not DC 10, it is DC+10. There is a DC for climb checks for Pit spells, so it is that DC (+10) that the person would have to make. And of course free up both hands.
The whole DC 0 +10 would only apply if the spell had failed to give a climb DC.
None of the let's catch the wall logic makes any sense. You failed the reflex save, you don't have time or initiative to react, you fall.
You have no more or less time than if someone pushed you off a cliff, which is another situation in which you could try to catch yourself.
Incorrect, the fact that this spell has a slope is what makes it so easy (DC 0 +10). Against any normal pit, or trap, or hole, or ledge, or cliff, etc. that is not a slope, the DC is +20.
... so if i'm interpretating you correctly here, you are saying reaching out and catching a sloped (steeper than 90 degree) surface is EASIER than reaching out and catching a flat 90 degree surface?
Really?
Please, think about this for a bit. The extension of this is that the steeper a surface next to a fall, the easier it is to catch yourself on it. Think of a real world example: if your roof is flat compared to highly sloped (alpine), which one do you think will be easier to catch the lip of as you fall?
Your interpretation makes the alpine roof easier than a flat 90 degree roof. This is utterly nonsensical.
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There is a internet icon for Thumbs Up in appreciation? ;-)Yes, it's called the +1 button:
http://s28.postimg.org/kfgsn1w3h/Capture.png
Not good enough if you want to show your appreciation in a noticeable way. a post is better.
I appreciated Gregory restrain in avoiding unnecessary complications at the gaming table. At least in the forum a rare commodity.|
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In my home game, I've bumped up the spell level of all create pit spells by 1. That seems to do the trick for me.I think this is a good solution, but were I to do it, part of the change would be to remove the option of simply climbing out. We ARE talking about an extra dimensional space here, not a tunnel bored into the earth.
The pit spells all include the possibility to climb out of them. Removing it is really a bad idea.
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Wouldn't jumping 11 feet put you one foot past the hole?
edit- didn't know that about the skill bonus from fly speeds. I've been running that wrong. Though it makes me wonder what the point of mentioning maneuverability in flight spells is.
Exact. You need to clear a 10' hole, not jump 10'. So you need to start before the 10' hole and end your jump on the other side.
About fly: the text of the sell hasn't changed from the 3.X to Pathfinder, but Pathfinder has added the fly skill.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Jumping 10' should clear a 10' hole, i.e. launching from the edge of the pit (the 0' mark, if you will) and landing on the far edge (the 10' mark). Unless you want the character to jump 1' before the actual pit? A 10' gap should be cleared by a 10' jump.
Overall it's a minor point though.
How do you measure 10'? From start to end. It is the measure of the hole from side to side. You start your jump in the square before the hole and need to end it in the square after the hole. The hole is 10' so you need to clear them jumping more than 10'.
Try a simple exercise.
- Measure 10' or string and put them on the ground. That is our hole.
- Measure another 10' of string and . That is your 10' jump.
- Put the second string adjacent to the other string on the ground, starting in the same point. Where is the end of your jump? In the hole (i.e. along the length of the first string) or outside it (i.e. on firm ground)? It end in the hole, just adjacent to firm ground.
Retry that but make the second string 11' long. Now you end on firm ground.
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I haven't run into significant issues with create pit, as it quickly loses effectiveness with flight/high saves/open battlegrounds/etc. The higher-level versions are rarely worth preparing, considering what else you can do at that level.I think the spell writer didn't consider the climbing rules while making the spell. I've never seen the 'catch yourself' idea used, and pits certainly haven't broken anything in my games.
I still wish some were bigger though. A 15' pit for a 4th level spell would be pretty nice.
Flying work for people with the skill, and a good number of points in it, not for your average fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, cleric (air walk don't allow you to fly, you walk on air), monk, paladin. Same thing for several of the advanced classes.
You need to be able to fly every day to train the skill and the checks are relatively high for an untrained character.The only saving grace is this line:
Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).
so a guy using a potion of flying don't plummet to the ground when he fail a fly check.
Another thing:
Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
If you are walking and have an active fly spell it don't protect you automatically from a pit spell. You need to make a fly check.
If you are a guy without skills in fly you often walk even if you have a fly spell active. You have a way better manoeuvrability walking.
Incorrect, the fact that this spell has a slope is what makes it so easy (DC 0 +10). Against any normal pit, or trap, or hole, or ledge, or cliff, etc. that is not a slope, the DC is +20.... so if i'm interpretating you correctly here, you are saying reaching out and catching a sloped (steeper than 90 degree) surface is EASIER than reaching out and catching a flat 90 degree surface?
Really?
Please, think about this for a bit. The extension of this is that the steeper a surface next to a fall, the easier it is to catch yourself on it. Think of a real world example: if your roof is flat compared to highly sloped (alpine), which one do you think will be easier to catch the lip of as you fall?
Your interpretation makes the alpine roof easier than a flat 90 degree roof. This is utterly nonsensical.
Another way for me to explain this, with diagrams:
........12.............12.......
........-..-............-....-.....
........|..|.............\../......
........|..|.............|..|......
........|..|.............|..|......
There are two pits: pit a) and pit b). Two people are dropped over these pits: person 1 and person 2. Both pits are 10ft wide, but pit b) also has a 45 degree slope for another 5ft around this. I'm using male pronoun for simplicity.
Let's drop person 1 5ft from the pit proper. For pit a), he ends up on a 90 degree slope (IE flat) and it's pretty obvious he doesn't need to catch himself at all. For pit b), he falls on to a slope and begins to slide into the pit. Everyone would agree at this point he can make a minimum DC 10 check to stop himself sliding into the pit.
Now let's drop person 2 over the pit directly. In pit a), he passes a 90 degree angle on his way down. In pit b), he passes a sloped, 45 degree angle on the way down. In both cases he can presumably attempt to grab the ledge. In pit a) if he manages to throw out his body or hands and grab the flat ledge, he has little risk of sliding back into the pit. In pit b), even if he gets his body over that ledge, it is a slope and his body weight may slide him straight back down into the pit regardless. Trying to catch an edge with his hands does nothing at all: there is no lip to gain traction on.
This is why, in real life, you slope the edges of your pit trap. It makes it harder for an animal to catch itself from the initial fall. You are arguing that to catch the flat ledge in a) is DC 25 and the sloped ledge in b) is DC 10. I hope you can now see why this does not make any sense?
I'm not quite sure how people are finding this spell broken. It's potent, but like most potent control spells, effect the party just as much as the enemy. Anyone spamming this endlessly is going to annoy the other players just as much as, if not more than, the DM. The pit spells are very much like the cloud spells; fantastic in the right situation, but quite capable of limiting the caster's allies if not used wisely.