Diplomacy DCs are calculated using the targets Cha modifier. So low Cha characters have lower Diplomacy DCs and are easier to request aid from.
haha, I didn't think about that. I suppose it would be easier to convince someone though if they were less used to handling people.
like if you could convince them that it was their idea...
The issue with that is that someone with low Charisma is actually more helpful and eager to please than a high Charisma guy...which makes that explanation not make a lot of sense.
Good point. Maybe would should subtract, rather than add, the Cha modifier?
The issue with that is that someone with low Charisma is actually more helpful and eager to please than a high Charisma guy...which makes that explanation not make a lot of sense.Good point. Maybe would should subtract, rather than add, the Cha modifier?
We could rename it. Make it a 'charisn'tma' modifier. Maybe an off chance of realizing the pitfalls of expectations and escaping from the whole ordeal under a bit of stress.
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The issue with that is that someone with low Charisma is actually more helpful and eager to please than a high Charisma guy...which makes that explanation not make a lot of sense.Good point. Maybe would should subtract, rather than add, the Cha modifier?
That doesn't make a lot of sense either. High Charisma making you easier to manipulate is not a very sensible idea.
The way it works, with Low Charisma people easier to talk into things makes sense if they're socially awkward, but still desire the approval of others...which makes sense, it just disagrees with the linked (unofficial) description.
The issue with that is that someone with low Charisma is actually more helpful and eager to please than a high Charisma guy...which makes that explanation not make a lot of sense.Good point. Maybe would should subtract, rather than add, the Cha modifier?That doesn't make a lot of sense either. High Charisma making you easier to manipulate is not a very sensible idea.
The way it works, with Low Charisma people easier to talk into things makes sense if they're socially awkward, but still desire the approval of others...which makes sense, it just disagrees with the linked (unofficial) description.
yeah, the thing was a guideline for players, and obviously doesn't cover every type of person. With your example I definitely think the game took a darker turn for the low charisma scores that necessary.
I would never punish people for stats they rolled. If you're following what the dice say, and the dice say something unpleasant, you just have to go with that. I get a little annoyed when I see a bunch of people dumping CHA to 7 in a point buy system, but it's not something that they really need to be punished for.
Where I do tend to ride people's choices for their Charisma score, is that I like to give XP awards for good roleplaying, and players whose characters have a very low CHA and don't act like it have a lot harder time earning those in my games. If you're a low CHA character, and you play like it though, then you're fine. Well, you're fine except NPCs probably won't like you very much if you are RPing your 5 CHA correctly.
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One time only, certainly not as a regular thing, a GM could mess with Charisma-dumping PCs by pitting them up against a Sorcerer who has devised a spell to use his Charisma modifier in place of another attribute modifier. (Str 10, Cha 20, cast a spell and use the +5 from his Charisma to affect his attack and damage rolls, and, for a brief time, enjoy the encumbrance of a Str 20 character. 2nd level, 1 round / level.)
And, the logical next step in the line of research would be to devise an offensive spell that does that same thing to another individual, replacing an attribute modifier with the 'force of their personality', blessing those with a high Charisma with the ability to use that modifier in place of a weaker attribute, or cursing those with a dumped Charisma to have to use that -2 or -3 modifier in place of their min-maxed +5 Strength modifier for 1 round / level! (3rd level, touch range, 1 rd/level, mind-affecting (no insta-gibbing Cha 1 constructs or vermin), doesn't affect attributes that are non-abilities.)
A custom bestow curse that swaps / reverses a targets highest and lowest Attribute scores can also be a sneaky way to annoy a min-maxed character for an encounter (until they can get it cured / removed). Enjoy that new Str 7 and Cha 20, Mr. Barbarian! Again, something to be done exactly once, to mix things up, and not trotted out over and over. The fun of the game is letting the PCs revel in their cool powers, and challenging them anyway, not find endless excuses for why they can't have nice things.
There's also Charisma damaging or draining monsters or poisons, but that just seems mean and overly specific. GM vs. player is pointless, IMO. It's supposed to be a dialogue, not a fight.
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PF, I recently introduced the party to a high charisma barbarian (in a viking setting).He was named Drogar the Dashing and all manner of doors naturally opened for him. They soon saw the advantages of having his presence and it rubbed off on them.
Throw in potions, wands and belts (perhaps limited to daily usage) to boost Cha. So that they begin to appreciate how much better people treat them for a while.
Or like some vaguely mythic power make them all beautiful or charismatic for helping a divine being?
Then there is the rival party, all talented and normal, but with the personality to get others to help them. Looks and charm become just one more reason to hate them, but watching people do what they ask (or tell) could be instructive.
cheers
A caharacter with very low cha scores but high diplomancy skill....im reminded of a shakespearian play with a fellow with an enormous nose but could sweet talk the pants off ladies.Cyrano de Bergerac was a real person, lived in France in the early 1600s.
The story you have in mind was a play based on his life, written in 1897 by Edmond Rostand.
Cyrano (the real one) was also one of the very first "science-fiction" writers, with two novels depicting adventures on the Moon or on the Sun.
That said, you can now come back to the real subject of the thread...
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So, you make people roll for stats and then want them to suffer for a poor roll? Step down and stop GMing. What kind of person punishes somebody for something that isn't even their fault?
Or maybe, just maybe, don't be a jerk to the poor guys and use point buy.
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Some suggestions:
The characters will not inspire others to follow them.
NPCs may have a bad feeling about the characters. As if something is just a bit off about them.
The characters will be forgettable. When NPCs are relaying stories of the heroes, they will probably forget the name or actions of the characters with that low of a Charisma, or attribute the good actions to other heroes with higher Charisma.
NPCs may regard the characters as ugly, even if the player describes their character as attractive.
And as others have said, don't think of it as a punishment, think of it as the world reacting to the characters.
Edited to add: OP, as you'll no doubt see, different people have different understandings of what the stats mean. Some people think that a Charisma 3 and a Charisma 18 are the same except for the modifiers. Others play that the stats go beyond just the modifiers.
Whatever you choose, just be consistent and you'll be all set.
A 5-Cha character won't "provoke" a random fight, they will be victimized by a random assault.
5 Charisma doesn't mean you have the looks of Frankenstein or a 90 pound nerd. Personally, it doesn't sound that fun if every time you cut a street corner you have to fight combat with 2 lvl 1 rogues when your a level 15 fighter.
NPCs may regard the characters as ugly, even if the player describes their character as attractive.This is bad advice. CHA has nothing to do with Physical Attractiveness.
A lot of people have lower charisma than ghouls. Personally, I don't find them that attractive.
Good luck with the game! I hope you and your players have enough fun to keep it going a long, long time.
If your game runs long enough, sooner or later the PCs are going to make enemies who are smart and powerful, and those enemies are going to look for vulnerable spots to hit the party in. Said enemies can exploit the PCs’ low charisma both indirectly and directly.
Acting indirectly, they can spread rumors and prejudice ahead of the low-charisma PCs, perhaps using enchantments to stir up anger, spite and envy. With poor bluff and diplomacy scores, those PCs will have a hard time dealing with unfriendly authorities and populations, and may wind up with law enforcement, bounty hunters and/or howling mobs after them.
Acting directly, they can employ monsters, poisons and spells that inflict charisma damage or drain against the PCs. They might animate totenmaskes or ghosts with corrupting gaze; might summon kithangian demons or nightmare creatures; might hit them with ungol dust poison or with the contagion spell to cause bubonic plague or leprosy. No matter how many hit points those 5-charisma PCs have, two bites from a totenmaske are likely to take them out.
16 cha fighter? What did he dump to afford that? A barbarian of lower level would TROUNCE him.
@Tiaburn
All I heard out of that is "in my campaigns you better roll a full caster/Paladin or GOD HELP YOU"
Must not have gotten a stat below 14!
#1: Ability scores do not actually tell you anything about the character.
They do. :)
Ability Score: ... These scores represent a creature's most basic attributes. The higher the score, the more raw potential and talent your character possesses.
...
Strength measures muscle and physical power.
...
... And so on.
How do they emasure these things? See below.
What they do is signal you as a GM regarding what aspects of the character the player in question feels are important, or wants to explore. Low Charisma does not necessarily mean "this character is ugly/unlikeable/unfriendly." It means, instead, "this character may or may not be friendly or attractive, but regardless the player is not very interested in exploring or highlighting his/her social exploits."
To be fair, ability scores can tell you both of these things. They can certainly indicate a player's disinterest in a certain aspect of the game, but they can just as easily be a player's specific desire to play an unlikeable curmudgeon.
#2: Ability scores give relatively minor incremental bonuses or penalties to certain endeavors, full stop. There is no need to "interpret" what they mean.
The interpretation is inevitable, though. There's a reason why the method of rolling 2d6 and adding 6 for each attribute is labeled "Heroic", and why High Fantasy and Epic Fantasy allow for greater points spreads for starting characters: it's because higher attributes reflect an exceptional individual. Someone who rolls a Strength of 18, for instance, has exceptional musculature and physical power. Someone who rolls a 10-11 is average.
A character with a 5 Charisma has a -3 penalty when making Diplomacy checks, and therefore is likely to fail them, which will have the result of people not being especially nice to him. On the other hand, if he maxes out his Diplomacy (and other social skill) ranks and takes Skill Focus: Diplomacy, etc, then people will probably tend to treat him very well despite his low Charisma. Such a player may call such a character "charismatic" and be correct regardless of his Charisma score. The system will bear out his assertion.
A character with a 5 Charisma may be a rude recluse or may be one of the twins from "Blades of Glory". If that same character maxes out his Diplomacy, etc., they would be the kind of person we refer to as a snake-oil salesman, or a used-car salesman, etc. Either way, while that's a very interesting concept for a character, it's not indicative of the natural "personal magnetism" that the Charisma attribute refers to.
Does the sum of all those modifiers ultimately determine the result? Sure! But that's no reason to reduce the two to being the same thing. You can see the difference in every day life. I've seen Colonels give speeches that properly conveyed the intent of the speaker, were received well, and succeeded in keeping the troops in formation from being pissed off about being under the sun. On the flip side, I've also seen younger officers who are obviously naturally charismatic but are obviously not practiced speakers. I've also seen Colonels who are obviously charismatic on top of being practiced speakers and the effect this had on top of a good speech. It's not the same thing every time. :)
#3: If you absolutely must assign some "meaning" to the abilities, then think of them merely as rough indicators of potential rather than of actual capability.
But that's the thing. There is absolutely a measure of capability. Strength 18 and Strength 10 have absolutely different capability standards in terms of how much you can carry. A spellcaster with a key attribute of 15 not only can't cast as many bonus spells as one with a score of 18, nor can he cast spells of 6th level or higher.
16 cha fighter? What did he dump to afford that?Nothing.
He rolled it. :)
This is why I like rolling for stats, it's the only way classes that don't use charisma can end up with high(sometimes even middling) CHA scores without handicapping themselves.
Maybe in my next campaign we'll do like a 15 PB for 6 stats, and roll for Charisma. (If anybody wants to play a CHA-based class, we'll have to work something out.)
Is it wrong of me to note that above posters who think that they know how to run others' characters on the role play side and provide 'consequences,' i.e. passive aggressive punishment for the DM's side exhibit behavior consistent with a charisma score of 5 themselves?
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Who says it's a must?
They chose "lack of presence" as their low stat, so don't feel that you have to make things easy for them.
Lack of presense is a fine way to describe it. Since the OP asked for advice I will offer it.
1) Set up a situation where they are to wait somewhere quietly for a contact to meet them. The contact looks and waits, then leaves, havingdecided that the PCs decided not to show up.
2) If they reliably avoid using Charisma-based skills, periodically have them roll Charisma checks when they meet NPCs to see what kind of opinion the NPC forms.
3) Have them build relationships with recurring NPCs. Single interactions call for skill checks, ongoing relationships instead call for Charisma checks.
I have a Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc Barbarian with a low Charisma. He doesn't talk much, but when he does it is direct, to the point, pull no punches, honest to a fault & raw.
Scenerio: In a difficult Campaign with the group trying to figure a way out through diplomacy & bargaining with stronger opponents, attempting to work a deal of "we do something for you, you help us get out" kinda thing. It is near complete when they ask us to kill a group of creatures bothering them for their help. It is a delicate balance of diplomacy as they are considering just killing us, then going after the others themselves. Too much talk-talk goes on so I blurt out:
"why don't you just tell them that we have already killed them all & they need to help us get out?"
It didn't go well....
Low charisma can be played any number of ways. Do you couple a low Charisma with low Comeliness as well? Are they ugly AND socially inept? Then maybe add 1 bonus point to intimidate for every point under 10 in Charisma.
Is it something that can get pity from others & work to your parties advantage?
Maybe a hat of disguise & items that will raise the characters charisma should be a GROUP GOAL.
It's ALL fun, you just need to explore the possibilities!
What I did was everytime they gamble, they use Cha to roll for luck. Low Cha, low luck. If they do anything involve luck, roll Cha. But you don't punish people for having low in some stats, that's just stupid. You challenge them, not punish.
I did not see this recommendation while skimming, but I apologize if it was offered.
When parties face challenges people tend to take on "roles" where they operate with their strengths and cover for other party members weaknesses. Depending on the characters and game this can make characters seem one dimensional or shallower than they really are as people perform the same roles over and over.
As your campaign proceeds I would have as least an "event" or scenario that separates the characters (like getting arrested or separated by some force), possibly individually or smaller groups. Then you can use these periods to have characters face challenges that highlight their strengths AND weaknesses. This allows you to emphasize the varied aspects of characters and can really highlight the true depths of characters, their abilities and personalities.
Some events should "punish" their weaknesses (course this punishment is really just extra challenge that can be rewarding in its own way) and some events should reward their strengths.
This is why I like rolling for stats, it's the only way classes that don't use charisma can end up with high(sometimes even middling) CHA scores without handicapping themselves.
Maybe in my next campaign we'll do like a 15 PB for 6 stats, and roll for Charisma. (If anybody wants to play a CHA-based class, we'll have to work something out.)
One alternative is to hand out immense point buy. One GM rolled for his players (claiming to do 4d6 drop the lowest, but it was for an online game and he did the rolling by hand without a camera) and offered them 40pb no-dumping-under-10-for-points if they didn't like the results.
Most of us took the rolls, but the point being, absurdly high point buy is an option.
If you give people an absurdly high point buy, aren't fighters, barbarians, etc. still going to dump Charisma? Just put all those points into Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int instead.
I mean, if you want to have a fighter with a 14+ Cha, without feeling like you've made yourself much less effective in combat, you're going to have to roll those stats.
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This is why I like rolling for stats, it's the only way classes that don't use charisma can end up with high(sometimes even middling) CHA scores without handicapping themselves.
Maybe in my next campaign we'll do like a 15 PB for 6 stats, and roll for Charisma. (If anybody wants to play a CHA-based class, we'll have to work something out.)
One alternative is to hand out immense point buy. One GM rolled for his players (claiming to do 4d6 drop the lowest, but it was for an online game and he did the rolling by hand without a camera) and offered them 40pb no-dumping-under-10-for-points if they didn't like the results.
Most of us took the rolls, but the point being, absurdly high point buy is an option.
If you give people an absurdly high point buy, aren't fighters, barbarians, etc. still going to dump Charisma? Just put all those points into Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int instead.
I mean, if you want to have a fighter with a 14+ Cha, without feeling like you've made yourself much less effective in combat, you're going to have to roll those stats.
Depends on what else you do. I let my PCs use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will Saves, if they want (they can use whichever is higher). This makes high Charisma martials much more viable.
I also give them 25 point-buy, with no stats over 16 before racials and minimal dumping (only one stat below 10, and that not below 8). This combination works out very nicely in my experience.
So, they chose to keep their ability score rolls and use cha as a dump stat. They've even said they'd like to see the IC results of this. I'd oblige them - for every time having a high STR (etc.) is useful, a time where a high cha would benefit you (and a low one penalize) should occur. I let my players choose what aspects determine their low stat - it could be looks, it could be a bad stutter, it could be complete insensitivity to those around them. Then NPCs can react accordingly.
I do think you need to be the arbiter of game balance, and make cha-based skills as meaningful as combat skills. I'm all for RP-driven stat-dumping, I'm against munchkin stat-dumping. Remember that to be impressively ugly as a benefit, that's still a positive CHA.
It's great when players use resources to overcome their shortcomings - but keep in mind you'll need to boost diplomacy for when you're telling the truth, Bluff for when you're not, and Intimidate for when you're trying to compel or impress. If they spend necessary resources to overcome their low CHA, they'll begin to do fine in CHA-driven scenes.
This is why I like rolling for stats, it's the only way classes that don't use charisma can end up with high(sometimes even middling) CHA scores without handicapping themselves.
Maybe in my next campaign we'll do like a 15 PB for 6 stats, and roll for Charisma. (If anybody wants to play a CHA-based class, we'll have to work something out.)
One alternative is to hand out immense point buy. One GM rolled for his players (claiming to do 4d6 drop the lowest, but it was for an online game and he did the rolling by hand without a camera) and offered them 40pb no-dumping-under-10-for-points if they didn't like the results.
Most of us took the rolls, but the point being, absurdly high point buy is an option.
If you give people an absurdly high point buy, aren't fighters, barbarians, etc. still going to dump Charisma? Just put all those points into Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int instead.
I mean, if you want to have a fighter with a 14+ Cha, without feeling like you've made yourself much less effective in combat, you're going to have to roll those stats.
You can't buy higher than an 18. The more points you have, the more points you have to put into your lower stats.
How does rolling fix the problem anyways? The only way your fighter is going to have high charisma is if he rolled stupid high across the board. Charisma is still the low stat because dumping is a fault with the game, not the player.
How does rolling fix the problem anyways? The only way your fighter is going to have high charisma is if he rolled stupid high across the board. Charisma is still the low stat because dumping is a fault with the game, not the player.
You can always have your players roll in order for their stats. That is, their first roll is their strength, their last roll is their charisma.
Obviously if you do this, then you have people roll before they decide what sort of character they're playing.
Well yeah. Then you just have people look at their rolls, sigh, and say "well, guess I'm playing a sorcerer".
If you're going to go through all this trouble to ensure players invest in a stat that the game punishes them for investing in maybe you could instead put that effort into removing the penalties for investing in that stat? DMW's suggestion of choosing between wisdom or charisma for will saves is a good one.
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I'm starting a game with my friends this Thursday and two of them are starting with vertu low rolled charisma, the lowest being 5. If it was intelligence, they would be 3 points away from not being able to speak!
So I feel like prices will be higher for them off course and randomly fights will stay because they looked at someone wrong but I'm wondering if any of you have good ideas how to punish these people.
Thank you
Don't. They're only at what, a -15% chance to succeed compared with a 'normal' person? Not that big a deal.
Plus, 'punishing' is not part of a GM's job. If you think it is, stop now.
You can't buy higher than an 18.
Setting aside the rest of the discussion, this is not relevant until you have a ridiculously high point-buy. Let's say you "only" want 5 stats at 18 like Cabbage said. You'll need 17 points apiece, so 85 points total. Until you reach that threshold, Charisma will still be dumped to get more points, because outside of specific builds or roles there is no meaningful disadvantage to doing so in a well-rounded team. At 85, Charisma will not be raised because there will be no points left. After 85, then and only then will Charisma usually be raised.
How does rolling fix the problem anyways? The only way your fighter is going to have high charisma is if he rolled stupid high across the board. Charisma is still the low stat because dumping is a fault with the game, not the player.
Pretty much this, all the way. Charisma is a popular dump stat because there it has the lowest out-of-class utility of any stat. Unless there are class features involved, it does little beyond feeding charisma-based skills and opposed charisma checks. Every other ability score feeds into other important things like saving throws, skill points, offense, and HP.
It also doesn't help that a lot of the charisma-based skills don't reward having multiple characters invested. Most of the time—unless you're doing an intrigue/social focused campaign—you can get by with a single character acting as the face of the party for sensitive negotiations.
I do like the idea of having charisma as an alternative to wisdom for will saves. Given how important will saves are for a lot of martial classes, it would at least make putting a few spare points there not a bad choice.