Requiring constant statements of "I move 5' and check for traps" seems more than ridiculous. I can see having the party move slower by being in "cautious mode", but the waste of repetitious and distracting monologue is a poor solution.
The best solution I've seen to date is to have the GM request a series of pre-rolled d20s from each player, and then a list of skill mods for the most common mods (perception and initiative being the most common). The DM can quickly determine the final skill check/initiative without tipping off the players as to their actual die roll.
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This won't help you for PFS - but in home games, our group gave rogues that talent for free. It really sped up the game.
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I have it on my PFS rogue.
Stupid personal anecdote time:
I've had more than a few PFS GMs ask me what my rogue's perception check was vs. traps once it was discovered I had the Trap Spotter talent, and then simply go through and eliminate encounters from the adventure because there was no way my character could miss certain traps and they were nowhere near other combat encounters.
Ask your DM. Some assume you're doing this anyway, in other games (the majority) this is a must have. Esp if there are lots of traps.
Especially for PFS, it mostly depends on you as the player. You can not count on all GM's to allow "I'm always moving slowly and checking everything for traps" to work the way you want (I wouldn't).
Will you remember to say "I'm checking for traps" before the barbarian opens the door? (Personally I often find I'm just getting ready to call for a check when someone says "I kick in the door.")
Most of the time the traps in PFS tend to be at fairly recognizable locations.
The tunnel suddenly becomes a rough terrain rubble strewn floor...
The locked ironbound door without a guard...
The chest sitting out in plain sight...
If you won't remember to call it quickly enough, then trap spotter is quite valuable.
If you are almost always going to recognize the 'likely' locations and call it out before someone does something risky, then trap spotter is still nice but not as great of an improvement.
Yes, it should be a class feature @ 2nd level.
Trap spotter is nice, if you've already determined you're the sneaky scout type.
If not, I don't know that I would bother.
The value depends heavily on the GM, campaign type, and general way in which the game is run.
Personally, I give all characters a passive perception check to notice anything of 10 + their modifier, except in combat. I also don't include much use of traps. Trapspotter in my campaign would be near worthless.
The whole passive perception thing is based on the idea that double moving in a round is actually hustling (which is tiresome and has rules within the game to simulate so you wouldn't do it thorugh an entire dungeon). Since you're only using a move action each round to move you basically have a free standard most of the time to look around, which I feel like we all do in our daily life as were walking. Adventures in a dangerous situation, even more so. It doesn't make sense that perception should really be anything other than passive, unless you're actively searching.
My biggest problem is I don't understand why the rules aren't written such that everyone just gets a reactive perception check against the trap. It doesn't make sense that you should actively have to search for it.
You don't search for the enemy ambush (who are presumably hiding using stealth). When you get within range the GM calls for a perception check and either you spot the ambush or you don't.
I give free perception checks against hiding enemies, but I have never done so for traps. Some GM's don't give them again hiding enemies either, but to get back on target.
Trap Spotter allows you to get a free check once you are within 10 feet so it is like a 2nd attempt in case you botch the first one.
My biggest problem is I don't understand why the rules aren't written such that everyone just gets a reactive perception check against the trap. It doesn't make sense that you should actively have to search for it.
You don't search for the enemy ambush (who are presumably hiding using stealth). When you get within range the GM calls for a perception check and either you spot the ambush or you don't.
I believe the rules actually are written so that everyone gets a reactive perception check.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Any stimulus that can be perceived without manipulating the environment can be perceived reactively as a non-action. Trap Spotter is therefore either a nonfunctional ability just like the original Prone Shooter or gives a second free perception check to spot a trap. Unfortunately since it was published in the CRB and is written without reference to reactive perception checks most people assume that traps are an exception to the perception rules even though they are nowhere called out as such.
While pervasive and almost certain to be present at a PFS table, the need for trap spotter to spot traps is a misconception.
If you want to find the trap before you spring it, you need to check. You get a free perception check to notice the trap as you spring it if you want.
If you want to find the trap before you spring it, you need to check. You get a free perception check to notice the trap as you spring it if you want.That's only true if the trap trigger is invisible. Nothing about trap spotter allows you to see invisible triplines, though.
The trap has a DC to be detected by perception. If you want to make a perception check to spot it, you have to announce your intention and use a move action.
A group of enemies waiting in ambush are making a stealth check opposed by your perception check.Basically, the trap is inherently hidden and you have to try to find it. An active check.
An enemy lying in wait is trying to hide, and you get a reactive check to notice.
Am I overvaluing trap spotter talent?
Yes.
Quoth James Jacobs two times...
Personally, when me GM give standard "Is Invisible, Perception DC +20" and sometimes "he making check distrcted +5" penalties to many traps yet say Trap Spotter avoids these penalties.
Paraphrase JJ and me: written Trap DC for PC very slow careful (move action checks) or Trap Spotter.
I wouldn't take trap spotter in pfs. I would in say the osirion ap.
However people need to realize how perception works is functionally different from 3.5. You don't need to search square by square. You tell the dm where you are in the room then get a penalty for range.
Example sunday night I dmed a dwarf rogue at the entrance to a 40x40 room.bye chose to take 10 for a 28. This means he more or less can see any trap with a ex of 24 or lower anywhere in the room. If he's not comfortable with that he can move in and do it again.
In this case.. he missed 1 trap with a ex of 30 hidden by a pillar.
That said I'm going to review if he gets a reflexive perception check since some posts above implied that.
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Trap Spotter is really only good because most of the other rogue talents are garbage. Here's the comparison:
Trap Spotter is automatic checks, all the time.
Doing it the smart way, telling your GM that you're "checking for traps as often as your character reasonably can" should get your party through the game at half speed, without disrupting your game (ie. your rogue isn't constantly bugging the GM with announcements). This leaves it up to GM discretion, rightly so.
Using that method, there are still traps you're going to set off, because what's reasonable changes depending on how your character is acting. This is most noticable because, I'd say at least, that if you're a rogue in combat, you're not still looking for traps. Traps do exist in some combat encounters. Trap Spotter would pick these up, the shorthand bug-your-GM method I've described here wouldn't - you're distracted.
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Even in PFS, I tend to play with a handful of different GMs. If any of them are going to give me a hard time over carefully moving through a dungeon, checking for traps everywhere, it's worth my time to train them to be better GMs, rather than taking a terrible class feature.
Other than the issue with the free action perception for stimuli there is another issue with trap spotter:
The trap spotter talent activates when you are 10 feet away from the trap but what happens when you enter a 20x20 room that has a statue that fires a fireball in the center of the room as soon as someone enters?
Does the trap spotter activate 10 feet before entering the room because it's an area affected by a trap (but it's not trapped) or does it activate when you are 10 feet away from the statue that has the trap?
Also i am also in the camp that rogues should get this for free.
If I don't have a rogue in the party...traps are pretty DAMN obvious.
Frown. No one feed Troll!
Me quote rules:
Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. The DC of this check depends on the trap itself. Success generally indicates that the creature has detected the mechanism that activates the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears attached to a door handle, and the like. Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed to do.
See?
Me wrong. Atarlost right.
If I don't have a rogue in the party...traps are pretty DAMN obvious.They're the things that keep killing you.
.....
Wait....this is Pathfinder......
.....
They're the things that infrequently mildly inconvenience you.
Tell your GM to make better traps.
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Other than the issue with the free action perception for stimuli there is another issue with trap spotter:
The trap spotter talent activates when you are 10 feet away from the trap but what happens when you enter a 20x20 room that has a statue that fires a fireball in the center of the room as soon as someone enters?
Does the trap spotter activate 10 feet before entering the room because it's an area affected by a trap (but it's not trapped) or does it activate when you are 10 feet away from the statue that has the trap?Also i am also in the camp that rogues should get this for free.
How is the statue in your scenario knowing when someone enters the room? Spell? Pressure plate?
Other than the issue with the free action perception for stimuli there is another issue with trap spotter:
The trap spotter talent activates when you are 10 feet away from the trap but what happens when you enter a 20x20 room that has a statue that fires a fireball in the center of the room as soon as someone enters?
Does the trap spotter activate 10 feet before entering the room because it's an area affected by a trap (but it's not trapped) or does it activate when you are 10 feet away from the statue that has the trap?A
Trap spotter activates 10 feat away from the trigger, just like spotting traps has always done.
@The Human Diversion
I don't know but i am pretty sure i have see that kind of trap in an AP.
@DrDeth
Which rules are you reading and you come to this conclusion about this specific rogue talent?
Funny thing in Rise of the runelord the only trap I missed killed my rogue. Could only not see it on a 1 then failed save and took 50 neg energy and died due to existing wounds.
Really A normal rogue with good per should spot most traps. You can scan whole rooms and don't need to check every square.
I am about to make my 2nd PFS character, and was thinking about a crypt breaker or trap breaker alchemist.
The trap breaker is a little easier to build for combat I think since it doesn't give up base mutagen and have to spend a discovery on it.
However, the crypt breaker gets access to the trap spotter talent - which is a free perception within 10 feet of any trap. Which makes me heavily lean towards that archetype. It would also push back mutagen discovery to 4.
Both PFS and home GMs I've played under pretty much require you to repetitively say you are checking for traps constantly or they just spring them on someone. I know people say just heal up, but I've had traps down others in games before. At best it eats resources.
Note that the dwarf racial trait Stonecunning gives basically the same functionality as Trap Spotter (plus a bonus) in most dungeons: "Stonecunning: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks to potentially notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or floors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, whether or not they are actively looking." (emphasis mine)
Yes, you still need to state you are checking those wooden doors and anything not stone. The main benefit of Trap Spotter, though, is to not have to check every 5 ft when walking down a corridor/though a room; Stonecunning fills that niche pretty well.
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@The Human Diversion
I don't know but i am pretty sure i have see that kind of trap in an AP.
There has to be some mechanism to trigger the trap when someone enters the room. Trapspotter would go off when the rogue hit within 10' of that trigger, no matter what it is (alarm spell, tripwire, some other spell) - it doesn't matter if the source of the trap damage is 100' away, the trigger is still at that door and is part of the trap. I understand you may have seen that in an AP, but it's likely it wasn't run correctly or was worded in such a way that didn't mesh with the rules.
@The Human Diversion
I don't know but i am pretty sure i have see that kind of trap in an AP.@DrDeth
Which rules are you reading and you come to this conclusion about this specific rogue talent?
What are you asking? Look, when you spot traps, you spot the trigger. That's the way it has always been. You don't spot the part of the trap that hurts you, you spot the trigger, otherwise it's pointless.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#_traps
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Like Dennis Dsky said: send someone in who has high HP and saves. Cure him with wand of CLW. Works like a charm with the groups paladin: typically keen on going in first anyway with int and wis as common dump stats and no ranks in sense motive. High hp, good saves and a good fighter: just replace your groups trapfinder with a paladin and you should be good to go.
Pit trap with water in the bottom, trap door closes again, pally drowns. Traps that destroy the treasure they are guarding (and that one is a low CR too). Traps that collapse the tunnel, effectively sealing off entrance to the dungeon. Traps that teleport you back outside, but naked.
If all you can think of is traps that do a minor amount of damage, well, why bother?
Like Dennis Dsky said: send someone in who has high HP and saves. Cure him with wand of CLW. Works like a charm with the groups paladin: typically keen on going in first anyway with int and wis as common dump stats and no ranks in sense motive. High hp, good saves and a good fighter: just replace your groups trapfinder with a paladin and you should be good to go.Pit trap with water in the bottom, trap door closes again, pally drowns. Traps that destroy the treasure they are guarding (and that one is a low CR too). Traps that collapse the tunnel, effectively sealing off entrance to the dungeon. Traps that teleport you back outside, but naked.
If all you can think of is traps that do a minor amount of damage, well, why bother?
In general, I agree with you. My GM for my home group likes to throw rather ingenious and at least seriously inconvenient (if not down right lethal) traps at us.
The OP is talking about PFS however, I can only recall seeing a couple of really bothersome traps in PFS. I have been told there are a few that I just haven't encountered yet though.Even then, I prefer not to set them off because if nothing else they are often noisy and then you can't surprise the next guy.
@The Human Diversion
I don't know but i am pretty sure i have see that kind of trap in an AP.
There has to be some mechanism to trigger the trap when someone enters the room. Trapspotter would go off when the rogue hit within 10' of that trigger, no matter what it is (alarm spell, tripwire, some other spell) - it doesn't matter if the source of the trap damage is 100' away, the trigger is still at that door and is part of the trap. I understand you may have seen that in an AP, but it's likely it wasn't run correctly or was worded in such a way that didn't mesh with the rules.
Ok it turns out that the trap i was talking about is in Shattered Star.
That trap uses the sight trigger (which i think means the visual trigger) and has true seeing sight.
Now since traps with true seeing have a line of sight up to 120ft, do you mean to tell me that someone with the trapspotter talent get a chance to detect this trap at 70 feet away (70 feet is the line of sight for this trap because of the layout of the dungeon)
@The Human Diversion
I don't know but i am pretty sure i have see that kind of trap in an AP.@DrDeth
Which rules are you reading and you come to this conclusion about this specific rogue talent?What are you asking? Look, when you spot traps, you spot the trigger. That's the way it has always been. You don't spot the part of the trap that hurts you, you spot the trigger, otherwise it's pointless.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#_traps
That's actually my point, since the trap spotter doesn't mention triggers or trapped areas, it's just traps then the talent might be kinda pointless for a lot of traps.
The trigger is PART of the trap.
The trigger is PART of the trap.
So in the above mentioned trap you get a chance to detect it at 70 feet away (since that's the line of sight in that case) although it activates when you are 10 feet away from the trap since that's the range (70 feet) of the trigger, correct?
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The trigger is PART of the trap.So in the above mentioned trap you get a chance to detect it at 70 feet away (since that's the line of sight in that case) although it activates when you are 10 feet away from the trap since that's the range (70 feet) of the trigger, correct?
Yes, but range penalties would apply.
So you are saying that the trap spotter gives you the chance to detect a trap when you are 10 feet away from it's trigger (in addition to the actual trap)?