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Can someone explain how Tiny here is getting his poison onto his arrows? I have a rather handy Homunculus who would like very much to do this. I'm assuming that you lot are simply house-ruling that he can "fill up his quiver" with his own poison. If there is some other way, I'd like to know it. Chapter and verse would be great, thanks!
The same way you make anti-venom, you milk the poison producing creature.
Venom MilkingThen you dip the arrow into the venom and repeat.
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Timmy has Master Craftsman listed as a feat. That lets him get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Items. It does not let him get Brew Potion or Forge Ring.
If you go instead with Additional Traits. Pick Alluring or Wendifa Apprentice. You now have a scaling SLA, which makes you eligible for all the cafting feats. You are also eligible for Arcane Strike. This lets you spend a swift to increase damage by 1+1/5CL max 5 at 20th. If you are not using swifts, it is a free extra 5 damage, and you hit things that require magic to hit [DR/magic].
Lastly, you mention you have 1326 hp for 221d10. That works out as 5 per die + toughness. It should be 5.5 per die for 1436 hp.
/cevah
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The DC of Timmy's poison is 10+1/2 Hit dice+con modifier+2 racial, or DC122. As was mentioned above, he can fill up his quiver with this poison, effectively coating all of his arrows with this Sleep poison. Anything not immune to Sleep or Poison is done.
Thanks! Didn't know exactly where to find rules for this.
Do these figures take his bite attack into account? A Power-Attack modified bite does a minimum 133 damage (as noted in your stat block)
They do, I just didn't note it in the descriptions.
Saving throws are high enough as it is, but you have Lightning Reflexes listed as a feat. That can be swapped out for Improved Natural Armor. Also consider dropping the Crafting Feats (I don't know if he qualifies, where is the Caster Level coming from?) for more Improved Natural Armor if AC is a concern. Obviously if in melee combat, Combat Expertise makes AC a non-issue.
Overall, FANTASTIC work Vritra! With work, accelerated summer courses, my daughter, and gf, time is on a premium for me. I wish I had more time to invest in this idea right now, but you have done an amazing job leading the charge on this. Kudos.
First of all, thank you very much.
The reason Lightning Reflexes is still there is because I'm not sure if you can trade it out since it's a part of the base creature, but if you can I'd definitely swap it out.
Crafting feats are qualified via Master Craftsman, which allows mundanes to take them. However, it's definitely possible to swap them out for other feats like the Improved Natural Armor.
As for Evolutions gained via Evolved Familiar, is there a way to designate Timmy as our Familiar? I didn't see Homunculus on the list of available options.
On the pfsrd and prd the Homunculus is on the list for Improved Familiar.
Timmy has Master Craftsman listed as a feat. That lets him get Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Items. It does not let him get Brew Potion or Forge Ring.
If you go instead with Additional Traits. Pick Alluring or Wendifa Apprentice. You now have a scaling SLA, which makes you eligible for all the cafting feats. You are also eligible for Arcane Strike. This lets you spend a swift to increase damage by 1+1/5CL max 5 at 20th. If you are not using swifts, it is a free extra 5 damage, and you hit things that require magic to hit [DR/magic].
Lastly, you mention you have 1326 hp for 221d10. That works out as 5 per die + toughness. It should be 5.5 per die for 1436 hp.
While Additional Traits is good, it's not in the Core Rulebook. However, it'll definitely go into the build for later.
In addition, if we're going to start using the expanded sources, Timmy can obtain vastly more useful SLA's via potions.
The hp has been changed to the correct value!
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Make the tiny god a familiar? No. Have him take Eldritch Heritage: Arcane and then Improved Familiar and he can have his own Homunculus familiar with half his HP and his full BAB. Brutal.
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So, this is going to be my final form for a while, until I figure out good equipment. Any further increase to offense are looking miniscule, and I'll focus on building utility like Initiative or AC (Saving throws are high enough that he only fails the highest listed DC [that I know of] on a 1).
If you can boost his AC or Initiative to the point where he's either guaranteed to go first or his regular AC is high enough that it doesn't matter, then we've created the nigh-invincible Timmy.
Boosting his AC is easy if he's going to melee - he just always uses Combat Expertise. It gives him +56 AC as a Dodge bonus, so it affects his touch AC as well. He'll still be hitting at +171 or better on all his attacks, and now his AC is 73/73/12 (regular/touch/flat-footed).
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This is a fantastic idea. I dont see why he cannot have both 2 little swords and a cute little bow. He have feats to spare after all.
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@Combat Expertise.
It actually ends up being +55, but that only applies to melee. Ranged still has a low AC.
@Eldritch Heritage. With a little redistribution, definitely. However, after getting his equipment I'm going to do a more detailed breakdown to try and find a good end HD which gives him similar destructive power, but making him cheaper and lower HD so he's more affordable.
EDIT: one problem, it requires "Character Level 3rd" as a pre-req. Unfortunately for Timmy, he doesn't technically have a level...
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Character level also includes racial HD:
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
I consider this an addendum to the levels as defined in the CRB.
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Make the tiny god a familiar? No. Have him take Eldritch Heritage: Arcane and then Improved Familiar and he can have his own Homunculus familiar with half his HP and his full BAB. Brutal.
Perhaps also Leadership? His cohort will have to be 2 HD less then him, but, ha. A cohort could also can have class levels.
That quote only mentioned CR, not Hit Dice. There is no precedent set for your animal companion, familiar, or crafted construct having a CR at all.
Hm...
Well, there's a method for determining CR, which, although it does require some guesswork, can be demonstrably measured. Timmy's stuff is off the charts, as it were (thus necessitating more guesswork), but he's substantially beyond the limits there. It's not really viable to argue that he's less than the CRs on those tables, as he's so unbelievably potent already.
However, the real thing is:
After you have assigned skills, it's time to assign the creature's feats. Each creature with an Intelligence score receives a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per every 2 Hit Dice after the first (so, 1 at 1 HD, 2 at 3 HD, etc.). A creature must qualify to take a feat as normal. See Table: Statistics Summary for a quick feat calculation chart.
The table, in fact, does not note anything other than when feats are acquired, and they are acquired at the same rate as player characters gaining levels.
Leadership itself generally muddies these waters by determining what level (which seems somewhat arbitrary) which creatures count as for leadership purposes, but this guy doesn't have enough class levels to qualify, but does have the CR.
Any argument that he's below a given CR are extraordinarily bizarre: he more than meets every requirement to be of any CR over 29, and has hit dice.
I do understand that this was not an exercise to be played, but it's... strange to imagine that he couldn't qualify based on such a concept.
It seems to fall into the, "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." kind of thing to me.
Point is taken, but still found odd.
I agree with 7heprofessor. If we're going with this, we should really only work with absolutely legitimate rules.
Yes, this means it isn't as potentially powerful, but as 7heprofessor said it's not intended for actual play.
And if you wanted to create this version with the Ultimate Magic rules, you'd have to start with 148 HD actually. Although, even if you were to create it, you'd have to be a 19th level character anyways.
Not sure what other equipment to give to Timmy, but eh. He doesn't need it.
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Equipment: A club (0 GP) and a sling (0 gp)
If two-weapon fighting is in the cards, exchange club with quarterstaff (0 gp)
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While that does equip him for nothing, if you can grab an 18-20 weapon it makes him much better, since he confirms crits like no one's business, and as I've written him he uses a longbow simply because of longer range.
Possibly 15-20 throwing weapons with Far Shot can make him really good, especially with returning thrown into the mix. Unfortunately that lowers his ranged DPR a bit, but he wasn't really needing 910 DPR anyways.
The lowest level that I know of is the earliest you can acquire a candle of invocation to gate in an efreeti.
In 3.5 there were ways of summoning Pazuzu at 1st, but I don't think that works any more.
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This whole thread makes me think of a tiny society of gods created by one caster dumb enough to make one of these things able to make more of these things. It snowballs until you have a whole city of 200 HD Homonculi who really rule the world and let the puny Dragons and Humanoids and Undead think they are really in charge.
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Candle of Invocation costs 4,800 to craft, meaning you can gate in your efreeti. Not sure how you convince for infinite money though.
EDIT: As well, even with nigh-limitless funds, it still takes you 1 day per 1,000 gp, meaning it takes you nigh-infinite time to construct Timmy.
How would this generate infinite wealth? Wish no longer allows you to wish for items or money.The lowest level that I know of is the earliest you can acquire a candle of invocation to gate in an efreeti.
In 3.5 there were ways of summoning Pazuzu at 1st, but I don't think that works any more.
GMC notes that a) spell-like abilities can generate effects that the spell cannot including the explicit ability to create stuff (including magic stuff), and b) there's the 8th level spell true creation as well as (depending on your reading) the 5th level spell fabricate (though, since you want to avoid "iffy" things, I'm suggesting the variant of true creation).
Most importantly, though,
Making Good Wishes: The best wishes are short, unambiguous, related to matters immediately at hand, and usually aimed at a simple (if powerful) task. A wish for a sundered mirror of mental prowess to be made whole or a wish to reveal the identity of the thief of the crown jewels is unlikely to go awry.
Hence wishing for the candle to be made whole again (now that it's already consumed) would not be beyond the limits of the wish, as noted above.
How would it work?
Most simply, true creation specifically create a half-value thing or set of things out of something else; while too powerful for a wish to imitate (as I realize now it's an 8th level divine spell), it does give us a foot in the door. So perhaps a Solar instead of an Efreeti.
True Creation and Fabricate you've got infinite resources.
It could literally be targeted anywhere for any purpose.
Fabricate on a bunch of trees to turn them all into firewood or ladders or literally anything else made of wood with a price, instantly (with a Crafter's Fortune before hand). This is explicitly what the spell does.
True Creation to turn that valuable (group of) substance(s) into anything you need for any purpose whatsoever. The only thing you'd have to take into account is the value-per-square-foot of any given item, and keep it within the caster level and minimum value of at least 1 gold piece.
Actually, the more I think about it, the better a Solar would be.
As stated, the Candle of Invocation allows you to use the Gate spell, which allows you to summon a creature for an extended period of time in return for payment akin to Lesser Planar Ally, meaning 500 gold/HD (non-hazardous) and lasting for a number of days per level (17 days). The initial down-payment is waived because of the candle itself, and the subsequent payment is debatable. A solar expending all of their spells early in the morning and then crafting throughout that period of time can make tremendous progress in making anything and everything for you.
That said, I submit that there might be an inability to make things rapidly enough in the 17 days to pay for the creature and make a profit... which is why you use the (instantly repaired/working) candle to summon ever-more until you have a kind of self-sustaining debt-farm that pays itself out for the previously summoned ones (kind of like the current economy systems: ridiculously stupid and likely going to end badly, but more or less working because of its stupidity at present).
That can generate lots of excess wealth, and, as more and more valuable items are fabricated and created, the amount of wealth generated increases rapidly.
Also is the fact that, since we're trying to go RAW, you can just have them spontaneously produce clubs and slings from nothing whenever they want (or rather, gaining infinite amounts of them from the nearest settlement of any size), then fabricate those into an equal weight of valuable wood or leather or cloth (depending on what you see the sling as being made from) other items, and going from there. Also, you know Wall of Stone. Because castles are very, very valuable.
It's not the only method, and I submit that it - like most anything - is up for GM interpretation, but given the explicit use of a "good wish" is "make a useless magic item function normally again" it's a hard thing to argue against.
Of course, instead of all of this, you could just have the Solar make itself a simulacra of... itself... that serves you forever as if you were the creator. Then you get a free wish per day plus lots of spells (miracles if the GM presumes the CL isn't tied to HD - which it's not in many arguments - and "only" fourth level spells if the CL is tied to HD).
You could certainly do that one with efreeti as well.
There are really way too many ways of going about it.
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Candle of Invocation costs 4,800 to craft, meaning you can gate in your efreeti. Not sure how you convince for infinite money though.
EDIT: As well, even with nigh-limitless funds, it still takes you 1 day per 1,000 gp, meaning it takes you nigh-infinite time to construct Timmy.
Correct, which is why immortality is essential.
@Ishpumalibu
Yes, that would work for removing the costly component. If we use one of the Undead methods of immortality listed above, we are even immune to the ability damage Blood Money inflicts, making it effectively free.
Blood Money doesn't work if you can't take the STR damage.
Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components.
So... that's unfortunate.
The real benefit with using things such as wish spell-like abilities is,
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus.
It does not put a value on "material components", and thus applies to all.
By my reading, then, Fabricate whose material component is "the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created" should, when used as a spell-like ability, be able to generate an amount equal to the target value, or "up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text" or "If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet."
That said, I can see where the debatable part could come in, from "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material."
One nice thing that you could also do, is work with a similar set-up, and allow a casting creature (such as a solar or simulacra of a solar) to utilize blood money and then utilize it's other abilities.
Point in fact, if you used a few simulacra of efreeti, then get them to utilize the various "STR/Bloodmoney" tricks on these very boards, you can utilize the blood money ability with fabricate to create vastly expensive items rapidly with none of the other "questionable bits" - blood money explicitly covers that.
Plus, since it's a spell-like ability, the blood-money utilizing simulacra would be able to use fabricate as a standard action (as indicated by the Wish spell; I'm not citing the spell-like ability rules, but rather the casting time for wish itself).
EDIT:
Oh, and presuming that you couldn't do any of the fabrication shenanigans, you can still make "infinite money" off of the simulacra, as, since it can cast spells, you can sell its spellcasting services.
The more simulacra, the more spellcasting services for easy wealth generation.
The more wealth generated, the more viable true creation/fabricate actually becomes.
Heck, a very easy way of doing this is getting a single simulacra of a solar, and then using that simulacra's abilities to start producing simulacra of "workers" all of which make their profession checks, and give you half the money.
Before you start making simulacra (or sometime after you do and have a bit of surplus), grab a single "worker", deck him out to the nines for profession (or craft or perform, whatever you need him for) in permanent ways (not magic items or temporary bonuses), make your simulacra, and allow the original to keep his boons, then flood the market (somewhere else if you're feeling nice) with his (near-infinite) replicas.
EDIT:
Negating double-post:
EDIT: As well, even with nigh-limitless funds, it still takes you 1 day per 1,000 gp, meaning it takes you nigh-infinite time to construct Timmy.
I'm curious where this is? It's not in the homunculus entry, so I'm really curious where that information is coming from. I'm certain you're correct, but I'd like to look it over myself, too.
EDIT:
Never-mind. Found it. Should have looked there first. Thanks!
This sounds beyond awesome, especially when you consider things like wizard familiars and beast bonded witches... But I could use some clarification on this. Here's the bit from the PRD that makes me question the rules legality of it:
Hit Dice Modification: Hit Dice represent the overall strength and power of a construct. They affect a number of subsequent abilities, including hit points, saving throws, and base attacks. Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary. Because a construct’s size is limited, a Hit Dice modification cannot increase its size. Therefore Hit Dice modification can never increase the base construct’s Hit Dice beyond 50% of its total HD. Some constructs have a defined cost for increasing Hit Dice. To calculate the cost per Hit Die of other constructs, divide the construct’s construction cost by its existing Hit Dice.
...A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
I know we always go specifics trump generalities, but I don't see anything in the section on Homunculus creation that trumps the size limitations. The only thing I see is it lists a defined cost for increasing HD (which of course trumps the HD calculation method of cost/existing HD).
As you can see, Mathwei ap Niall addressed this on page one of this thread:
I think the part that threw me for a loop there was that I wasn't differentiating between the cost of creation and the cost of modification. My mistake.
I'll have to give the thread another once over.
Creating your own demiplane requires two additional steps, which can be done with the same candle of invocation trick, only reproducing Greater Create Demiplane and Permanency.
Only question, can we actually repair a candle of invocation using wish? If not, then we simply have to get an associate to sell our object worth more than 4,200 GP, and create an infinite loop of cash. In addition, if we can't repair candles then we get an additional wish to work with.
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I found a feat called Focused Overseer that let's you earn or purchase a specific kind of downtime capital at half the normal cost. A prerequisite feat, Focused Worker, let's you earn said capital faster. Both are from Paizo's Quests and Campaigns, which includes loads of fun new supplementary rules for their downtime system from Ultimate Campaign.
That means you can earn magic capital for only 25gp a pop. Each magic capital you spend towards magic item creation reduces costs by 100gp.
Your 880,000gp is now effectively 3,520,000gp.
Have fun with that 1,700+ HD homunculus boys.
You may also want to check out my thread "Magical Item Crafting on the Cheap" for even more cost saving measures. After all, if you're going to take it this far, why not go all in?
Edit: inaccuracies in my readings
Just a few notes I want to add to dear old Timmy.
Time - Timmy takes 1.2 years to craft (1 Day per 1,000 gold)
Weapons - In addition to Scimitar, Timmy should wield a small size whip as a two-hand weapon (-2 penalty for size difference). This allows Timmy to hit opponents at 15 ft range and can take advantage of all his attacks plus feats such as Great Cleave.
Let's be honest, with Timmy's massive damage, critical threat holds less value than multiple targets. You just need the Scimitar to handle opponents with natural armor (or switch to bow).
Could we build Timmy for grappling? I mean, even with his size penalties the sheer BAB and strength of Timmy means he can pretty much annihilate anything he encounters in a grapple, particularly if we break from core and get greater grapple ect, making it a move action to initiate the grapple and then a move action to deal damage.
Given how many feats Timmy has it's not exactly a huge drain on his resources to give him this option.
Guys, EVEN IF the candle doesn't get repaired: simulacrum will work.
EVEN IF the simulacrum is under the power of the wish granter, that's 17 days of multiplying wealth generation. (Efreet simulacra of itself x3/day for 17 days; the simulacra do all the work; you get the profit, the efreeti's payment, the Efreeti gains perfect servants after the days' duration: itself).
That's more than enough to generate enough wealth; what's more, you can get a one-use simulacra effect easily enough. Use it: win.
(Apologies for the formatting; I'm currently on an iPad, and coding's frustrating.)
Question: does using a spell-like ability (not a spell) to grant a wish that requires a non-you person to make the wish count you as the caster? Weird, because, if so, 1) you're not casting a spell, and 2) you're not granting the wish.
But anyway. :)
Besides, the AoOs problems are solved by having high Acrobatics. You can easily have +100 or more, enough to avoid any AoO