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Might want to provide a description of what exactly you find wrong with the class instead of saying "It's obvious whats wrong here, DISCUSS!" How else do we know what you have an issue with? Besides, the insulting and rude title does not invite polite intelligent debate.
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Because balance is not, and has never been, a high priority in 3e or PF.
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Might want to provide a description of what exactly you find wrong with the class instead of saying "It's obvious whats wrong here, DISCUSS!" How else do we know what you have an issue with? Besides, the insulting and rude title does not invite polite intelligent debate.
Actually, what you think of the title is purely subjective. I think it comes across as spot on.
We all know the problems with the Summoner, by this point we shouldn't have to list them out.
Being able to cast summon spells as a standard action and they last a minute per level is a problem.
Having access to certain spells at a lower level is a problem.
It's companion: Need I say more?
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The title says it all.
Because its only low tier 2/high tier 3. Which makes it more balanced then the CRB? So... that's probably why.
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It appears that my comedic attempt at warning fellow forum-goers on the nature of threads like this was removed. As such, here is a less comedic attempt at the same:
Fellow Forum-Goers:
Vaguely worded threads often take forever to go anywhere and rarely make it there. If you want to actually discuss the problems with the summoner class, I advise starting your own thread rather than participating in this one. Or you can use the search function, as this topic has been discussed in great detail in the past.
To the OP:
Please give a SIGNIFICANT amount more information in your original topic posts if you'd like them to be taken seriously. Otherwise, you may get responses similar to this one from old, grouchy, people like me.
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Might want to provide a description of what exactly you find wrong with the class instead of saying "It's obvious whats wrong here, DISCUSS!" How else do we know what you have an issue with? Besides, the insulting and rude title does not invite polite intelligent debate.Actually, what you think of the title is purely subjective. I think it comes across as spot on.
We all know the problems with the Summoner, by this point we shouldn't have to list them out.
Being able to cast summon spells as a standard action and they last a minute per level is a problem.
Having access to certain spells at a lower level is a problem.
It's companion: Need I say more?
Except--we don't "all know the problems with the summoner".
Eh, hang on, we already had this thread a few hundred times in the past few years since the class came out. Don't expect it to go anywhere constructive.
Might want to provide a description of what exactly you find wrong with the class instead of saying "It's obvious whats wrong here, DISCUSS!" How else do we know what you have an issue with? Besides, the insulting and rude title does not invite polite intelligent debate.Actually, what you think of the title is purely subjective. I think it comes across as spot on.
We all know the problems with the Summoner, by this point we shouldn't have to list them out.
Being able to cast summon spells as a standard action and they last a minute per level is a problem.
Having access to certain spells at a lower level is a problem.
It's companion: Need I say more?
Yes. Yes you do need to say more, because "this is bad, you should already know why, but I'd like to wail on this horse some more anyway" is not clear.
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Because Pathfinder is one game that is trying to be fun for all sorts of players and GMs. Some of them enjoy high-powered godlings capable of remarkable feats right from the get-go and others want as gritty and mundane a game as possible. So the Summoner is offered as a choice. It's not rammed down your gullet, it's simply an option to be there in the game for folks that dig it.
What doesn't work in your game might be a remarkable and joy-inducing addition to mine. You and I will never play together, but Paizo has created a game where you have the tools and materials to put together your game and I have the ones I need for mine.
Actually, your response would be better suited if we were talking about Mythic but we are not.
Summoners are allowed in PFS and I have seen them wreck games because of their power, which is highly unfair to other players.
Q:How could the designers have thought the Summoner was okay?
A:By knowing and doing their job.
Because balance is not, and has never been, a high priority in 3e or PF.It was at one point, late in 3.5, they released rebalanced versions of all the core classes except the bard.
Of course those classes also had unique mechanics, instead of the "everything works the same" paradigm of pathfinder and early 4e.
Yarr, one of the weird things about Pathfinder is it really lacks innovations. Likely the fact balance isn't a heavy thing on the table plays a part, and paizo doesn't exactly hand out errata often if ever, and certainly not to base classes.
Because balance is not, and has never been, a high priority in 3e or PF.I could understand this response if the class required some dodgy and obscure combo, but alas it happens right out of the bag.
The fact it works right out of the bag is why it works the way Zhayne said it did. If balance was a high priority, then outliers would be the only time its 'a problem'.
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The fact it works right out of the bag is why it works the way Zhayne said it did. If balance was a high priority, then outliers would be the only time its 'a problem'.Because balance is not, and has never been, a high priority in 3e or PF.I could understand this response if the class required some dodgy and obscure combo, but alas it happens right out of the bag.
Name me a class that doesn't work right out the bag.
Name me another class that has such problems right out of the bag.
The fact it works right out of the bag is why it works the way Zhayne said it did. If balance was a high priority, then outliers would be the only time its 'a problem'.Because balance is not, and has never been, a high priority in 3e or PF.I could understand this response if the class required some dodgy and obscure combo, but alas it happens right out of the bag.Name me a class that doesn't work right out the bag.
Name me another class that has such problems right out of the bag.
Which are unrelated to what I just said?
Let me clarify, the fact it has problems out of the bag, is why it works the way Zhayne said it does. Work as in, "works the way it does' not as in "functional".
Wut???Q:How could the designers have thought the Summoner was okay?
A:By knowing and doing their job.
Ya, a balanced caster is tricky. Kind of impressive they managed the low tier 2/high tier 3 mark.
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Actually, your response would be better suited if we were talking about Mythic but we are not.Summoners are allowed in PFS and I have seen them wreck games because of their power, which is highly unfair to other players.
Well, PFS is aimed at a specific range of Pathfinder play. And the design of the Summoner took that into account. If you want something a little lower-powered than Summoner or Magus, or some of the other impressives out there, perhaps PFS isn't for you.
Or maybe, a PFS game where players agree to a few more limitations so that gamestyle outside of your preference doesn't "ruin" the game for folks.
Actually, I play PFS each week so it is for me. No other class generates problems in PFS like the Summoner. The Magus is a nova one trick pony that can rock at a moments notice and be mediocre any other time.
Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change the fact that the class is a problem.
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shallowsoul, what, exactly, do you want from this thread?
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I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread.
Is this where we go to bash the developers about the summoner class? There's not much else to do, since the OP said himself that we all have apparently agreed what the problems are.
Who said anything about bashing developers? If pointing out obvious mistakes is bashing then I wouldn't recommend being in this business.
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Summoners can be quite fun to play soooo that's probably the big check mark the designers had?
You can build them a lot of different ways too, focusing on a number of things. They have a good spell list and don't have to be completely self serving. Throw away the eidoleon and just be a caster, throw away the spells and fight side by side with your monster or summons.
Some archetypes can get a bit messy if you need the game to go super fast but that's just part of the whole not every table needs or wants the same thing.
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Try to lewis black this thing up a bit. There's nothing wrong with an angry foaming rant as long as its a poignant angry foamy rant.
I absolutely see nothing unbalanced, broken or regarded as "wrong" in the class, in fact, it's one of the most fun classes to play in the game and that needs most of the player's skill when designing his character.
Also, it challenges the player to control two "builds" at once in combat.
Its like playing with two characters that have each half of a class's powers.
Being able to cast summon spells as a standard action and they last a minute per level is a problem.
They lose their eidolon when summoning, so their character loses a bunch of abilities and probably many feats in the process that other classes wouldnt. Its like giving a bow to a two-weapon/power attack focused fighter.
Having access to certain spells at a lower level is a problem.
They are a mid-progression caster, they get those spells "sooner", but in fact they are "late" on overall character progression. Also, their spell list is really limited.
For example, they learn charm monster (sum 3, wizard 4) at the same level a bard would, and also on the same level a wizard would (7th character level).But they learn dimension door (sum 3, wizard 4) at the exact same level a wizard would (7th level).
On the other hand, they learn Fly 2 levels later than a wizard.
Dispel Magic 2 levels later.
Ya, a balanced caster is tricky. Kind of impressive they managed the low tier 2/high tier 3 mark.Wut???Q:How could the designers have thought the Summoner was okay?
A:By knowing and doing their job.
Putting it there is very subjective.
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