I'm going to be testing it out soon using only the net (not the whip sadly) and I'm curious of everyone else's experience with it. It seems good on paper, and I really wanted to use the whip but I've heard at higher levels the enemies CMD makes it really hard to trip. The net seems good, but am I going to be useless for the first few levels?
I'm also stuck between EWP: Net and WF: Net or Fast Learner and Imp Init. Any ideas which will be more useful at the lower levels? I can go without Fast Learner, but I do plan on being a skill monkey so it'll be useful the earlier I get it. Plus the extra health each level helps.
Any advice or experience anyone can give me?
I'm currently playing a Whip using Archaeologist (original, i know). I find myself leaving the whip on my belt unless we are facing humanoid foes, and we are lvl 9 at current. Generally, CMD's of non humanoids scale too quickly to keep up with, even with Archaeologist's luck, Heroism, and other buffs.
However, against humanoids (especially martials) having a whip and improved whip mastery pretty much meant that anyone who moved in a 10' radius of me was pretty quickly off their feet and deprived of weapons.
With nets, you are attacking against touch AC. Even with a -4 for non proficiency, you'll be hitting a good 75% of the time. I'd say go with imp. init and fast learner.
Well one way or another I've got to take both of those fears for Dazzling Display. That's, to me, the bread and butter of the build. Shaken on anything within a 30' radius? Pretty dad
For this first scenario I'll be playing against mostly humanoids, so maybe the whip will be useful then. I just feel like the net will be more effective more often because it's just a hit roll and no AoO. I like it less, but mechanically it makes more sense. What really sucks is that I'll have to use a melee weapon and get in fairly close to do damage. A spear is the best bet to stay slightly away, but I really wanted the Nine-Section Whip and wished it had reach. But really, a 1D8 with 15' reach is a little crazy. And the feats you'd have to sink into whip mastery to be effective trip wise, at the higher levels anyways, is crazy.
Has anyone used Dazzling Display and had good effects or am I venturing into uncharted territory with my bard? If no ones done it I'll report back, but I feel like someone on here has tried this build.
My half-orc bard was heavily influenced by Treantmonk's build, and I was definitely strong as a controller. It was a ton of fun to play that character. To bad the campaign is in extended stasis.
Did you use a whip or net? How was Dazzling Display? We're you still kinda close to a skill monkey or more of a combat bard?
Not the Treantmonk Bard per se but my Imperious Bloodline Sorcerer has used intimidation as a debuff to good effect. However, as said, it is something that a. does not scale well and b. you have to focus on it.
Treeantmonk's Control Bard was an untested concept and it doesn't work in practice.
Combat maneuvers are pretty darn bad with medium BAB and middling strength and dazzling display kills you on action economy. Seriously, losing that move action for positioning makes it pretty much impossible to hit a clump of enemies in the opening stages of combat. Use Blistering Invective or standard action demoralize your enemies one at a time and save your feats.
I think you'd probably be better off going for things like spell focus. The net idea is good, though.
In a low OP campaign it can work, but a bard with no feats at all can work in a low OP campaign. Inspire Courage and the noncombat benefits on top of 6 level casting are pretty decent.
At the low levels how can I focus on spells? So far I haven't really seen any feats that increase a bards spell usage by much, usually only one spell and it'll get an extra daily power or something similar. Is there a better way to focus on casting?
The net doesn't roll against CMD does it? But then again, without dazzling display there are probably better options for weapons.
The other option is the archer build. I'll have less control but I'll be able to do more damage and be more viable. I'll have to figure out how to drop a few pounds of gear though haha.
Rannan wrote: At the low levels how can I focus on spells? So far I haven't really seen any feats that increase a bards spell usage by much, usually only one spell and it'll get an extra daily power or something similar. Is there a better way to focus on casting?
The net doesn't roll against CMD does it? But then again, without dazzling display there are probably better options for weapons.
The other option is the archer build. I'll have less control but I'll be able to do more damage and be more viable. I'll have to figure out how to drop a few pounds of gear though haha.
Largely it is about things like Spell Focus (Conjuration or Enchantment) and, later on, metamagic like Persistent Spell. The difficulty with going down this route though is the extremely small number of spells per day you get as a bard. Your are almost certainly better off having a strong melee or ranged focus and using your spells for utility and buffs. You will run out if you try to play like a primary spell caster.
andreww wrote: Rannan wrote: At the low levels how can I focus on spells? So far I haven't really seen any feats that increase a bards spell usage by much, usually only one spell and it'll get an extra daily power or something similar. Is there a better way to focus on casting?
The net doesn't roll against CMD does it? But then again, without dazzling display there are probably better options for weapons.
The other option is the archer build. I'll have less control but I'll be able to do more damage and be more viable. I'll have to figure out how to drop a few pounds of gear though haha.
Largely it is about things like Spell Focus (Conjuration or Enchantment) and, later on, metamagic like Persistent Spell. The difficulty with going down this route though is the extremely small number of spells per day you get as a bard. Your are almost certainly better off having a strong melee or ranged focus and using your spells for utility and buffs. You will run out if you try to play like a primary spell caster. Yeah I know I can't do just spells. I'll likely take up archery. Now the question becomes Elf vs Human. I'm thinking Human because I can take Fast Learner and still be a skill monkey, and I can take the alternate racial trait to get +2 to two skills (dex for archery, cha for skills). I'll lose the bonus feat, but I'll still be able to play well. I'll have to use the short bow, but the range isn't terrible. Elf has some benefits, but I can't get 18 in both dex and cha with an elf. I'll have to take 7 in both str and wisdom, which is a downer but I'll just be lightweight and I'm supposed to use ranged weapons anyways. Plus I can just take Weapon Finesse if I need to. The 7 in wisdom will be made up for in performance and other abilities. I'm not thrilled about it, but it's definitely doable and still makes me an effective skill monkey and archer.
I played an Oracle who went the intimidate route. I had Dazzling Display at level 1 and it rocked the house. By the time we were level 5 it was too high an action cost to use it. I got Cornugon Smash at level 7 and that is the feat that does the heavy lifting, let me tell you. It is pretty damn easy to hit someone with a power attack when you attack 2 or 3 times a round. I got Shatter Defenses at 9th and then the campaign ended but I don't think it was going to help all that much, great with sneak attack, a variable bonus to hit without it.
I'm not sure when bards get to attack more than once per round but I'm hoping to stay at a distance from the combat. Cornugon sounds good but it sounds like it's meant for melee. Does it work with ranged attacks as well?
And reworking the numbers, I'm having trouble between elf and human.
I can go 8/9 str, 17 dex, 8 con, 15 int, 8/9 wis, and 17 cha with an elf, and getting all the traits. I wouldn't sub any traits out, so I'd be proficient with the longbow and longsword. With such low str I'd have to take weapon finesse to make use of the melee weapons if I wanted to use them well. Favored class would give me +1 extra bardic performance a day.
As a human I can get 8/9 str, 18 dex, 10 con, 13 int, 8/9 wis, and 18 cha. I'd lose the bonus feat though and the bonus skill. Favored class would give me an extra spell. I can also get the Fast Learner feat.
Skill point wise, they're the same as long as I take Fast Learner as a human. Dex, cha, AND con wise, human is better. However I would be using a shortbow, wouldn't be proficient with a longsword (or any other elven weapon), and the racial traits for elf are pretty awesome. I'm really torn here. I guess the 1 extra cha and dex isn't a big deal, the 2 con sucks, and with fast learner I can get an 1 skill point and 1 health per level rather than having to pick. I can always put str and wis down lower to raise the elfs con though.
Anyone have any advice about this? I feel like the elf is the way to go, but the stats and skill points make me lean towards human. It's almost like human is more defensive and elf is more offensive for the build I'm going for.
Your Hit Points will be too poor even with something like Toughness. Human seems logic due to the feat intensive nature of the character but also there is little need for Fast Learner. Use your favoured class bonus for a bonus hit point and just have the human bonus skill point. I'd have AT LEAST 12 Con and at most 12 Int beyond that Dex and Charisma.
No, ranged attacks use Deadly Aim instead of Power Attack so you can't trigger Cornugon Smash. You can hilariously Power Attack with a whip and trigger both Pushing Assault and Cornugon Smash, but that isn't for your character, your strength is way too low.
strayshift wrote: Your Hit Points will be too poor even with something like Toughness. Human seems logic due to the feat intensive nature of the character but also there is little need for Fast Learner. Use your favoured class bonus for a bonus hit point and just have the human bonus skill point. I'd have AT LEAST 12 Con and at most 12 Int beyond that Dex and Charisma. Well I'm looking to be at least semi effective with ranged attacks, and I want to be a skill monkey, so I need all three stats to be decently high. If I go human I lose the extra feat and skill point to get +2 in dex and cha. I can get 12 con and 15 int though. Why would I limit the int if I'm looking to be almost a skill monkey? I could always drop it, but I liked the thought of a character who can do so much out of combat.
Gregory Connolly wrote: No, ranged attacks use Deadly Aim instead of Power Attack so you can't trigger Cornugon Smash. You can hilariously Power Attack with a whip and trigger both Pushing Assault and Cornugon Smash, but that isn't for your character, your strength is way too low. Initially I had 14 str with the build, but as time went on I saw more and more that it's really difficult to be effective with the whip. Bows are much easier to be effective with unfortunately. I liked the whip idea.
EDIT: with a human I can also go 7 str, 17 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 7 wis, and 17 cha. I wish the int was higher for more skill points, but it is what it is. I mean having all the skills all the time can't be awesome all the time when you're dead from a stab wound. I really only need like 8-9 skill points each level. I elf traits are really nice though.
Is a high dex ranged bard even a good idea? With a high strength instead of dex I can probably use the whip well enough. I really have no idea what enemies CMD is going to be so idk how viable the whip is. First I thought it was, then people said it's not, and then I found a thread on here saying their bard went whip/trip/disarm and was destroying people.
I don't want to make a gimped character and be stuck with a PC I don't like. I want to be effective in combat, and still have a high cha and int to do a variety of skills. Ranged seems like a good idea, but the whip build seems like it has a lot more control. I can trip and disarm people right in front of the groups barb, monk, or magus and let them do the dirty work. But people able to shoot from 30-60 ft away and do decent damag while still having the spells as backup or the occasional "oh s***" moment.
We have plenty of melee in the group so really I should control or do ranged attacks. I just don't know which is generally better.
I'm looking for advice on what's going to be effective. I've already decided to drop Dazzling Display because it seemed good but apparently is not. That's the stuff I'm looking for, people to correct my misconceptions so I know how something is going to work out when it happens rather than in theory.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I often come up with ideas that sound great in my head, so I would put them in my guides thinking, "What an original idea, I'm a genius!"
That said, some of those ideas I'm more proud of than others. The Controller Bard is not one of those I'm as proud of.
I think the concept works pretty well for low level, but simply lacks the staying power to be effective if you get into higher levels.
If you are playing low levels only - give it a shot. If you are going to higher levels, I would recommend any of my other Bard builds instead.
Treantmonk wrote: I often come up with ideas that sound great in my head, so I would put them in my guides thinking, "What an original idea, I'm a genius!"
That said, some of those ideas I'm more proud of than others. The Controller Bard is not one of those I'm as proud of.
I think the concept works pretty well for low level, but simply lacks the staying power to be effective if you get into higher levels.
If you are playing low levels only - give it a shot. If you are going to higher levels, I would recommend any of my other Bard builds instead.
Where would you put the ceiling? For isntance APs for my group usually call it quits by level 14.
what is your point buy? I would balance out your stats a lot more. I don't see a reason (as a person who plays archers) to go with that low of str or waste that much on dex, nor do I think you need that much charisma.
As for the whip, if that's what you want to play, play it. Once the whip/tripping isn't going to be effective anymore is likely when you want to focus on casting anyways.
Pan wrote: Treantmonk wrote: I often come up with ideas that sound great in my head, so I would put them in my guides thinking, "What an original idea, I'm a genius!"
That said, some of those ideas I'm more proud of than others. The Controller Bard is not one of those I'm as proud of.
I think the concept works pretty well for low level, but simply lacks the staying power to be effective if you get into higher levels.
If you are playing low levels only - give it a shot. If you are going to higher levels, I would recommend any of my other Bard builds instead.
Where would you put the ceiling? For isntance APs for my group usually call it quits by level 14. I wouldn't consider it "unplayable" at any level, after all, you have a decent array of spells and inspirations, so you could certainly play to level 14 and contribute, though not necessarily optimally.
The suggestions primarily for CM's are flawed. Bards are working on a lesser BAB, and a higher strength simply isn't going to bridge that gap - even at the mid levels. I would imagine by level 9 you would regret significant investment into tripping and the like.
Feats like Dazzling display will always get you some mileage, though the "shaken" condition is a pretty minor effect at high levels, -2 is still decent debuff - and is essentially a +2 DC for your spells as well.
Nets are great for any character for any level, even just as a "I have nothing else to do right now" action. Entangle lowers AC, Ref saves and reduces movement rates. You also have a chance to restrict movement direction as well.
I guess my recommendation would be - skip tripping feats. Using dazzling display/net as debuffs should be at least moderately effective.
I would probably focus more on CHA than I suggested originally. This will help your casting DC/spells per day as well as intimidate for dazzling display.
You can always trip without the feat by the way. As long as you are out of range of the opponents melee weapons, you aren't risking AoO's. Still probably a decent trick at low levels, but probably not worth the action later on.
My bard uses a whip without any feats, mostly for tripping. He's pretty useless in combat with his 10 STR and 12 DEX, but I'm mostly casting spells or using bardic performance to aid my party. But when I need to trip, my UMD is high enough that I can do it every other round with the support of a Wand of True Strike, which is pretty cheap. Or I can just aid another on someone else's attack.
Rylar wrote: what is your point buy? I would balance out your stats a lot more. I don't see a reason (as a person who plays archers) to go with that low of str or waste that much on dex, nor do I think you need that much charisma.
As for the whip, if that's what you want to play, play it. Once the whip/tripping isn't going to be effective anymore is likely when you want to focus on casting anyways.
20 point buy in. So far I've changed the build to 10 str, 17 dex, 12 con (I know), 12 int, 7 wis, 17 cha. I picked up Weapon Finesse and Rapid Reload along with a light crossbow. I also have a rapier, dagger, and whip.
This way I can attack at a range, attack adjacent foes, and use melee if needed. And I still retain enough skill points to get the skills I want, and cha is still high to allow me to be the face of the party. I tried finding Pirahna Strike but couldn't find it so I said forget it.
Idk where I'm heading with the feats, but I know those two are decent. I'm going to pick up imp. Init. as well soon. I'll also be picking up Agile Maneuvers (think that's the name) to up my CMB.
Otherwise, I have no idea what I'm doing lol. I just wanna be viable in combat as well as social skills and a few other skills. My load out is like 98.5 lbs so I'll be using my free action to drop my backpack right away so I don't incur penalties.
Can I use the scorpion whip as a regular whip but with lethal damage? So will it still have reach, disarm, and trip?
Treantmonk wrote: Pan wrote: Treantmonk wrote: I often come up with ideas that sound great in my head, so I would put them in my guides thinking, "What an original idea, I'm a genius!"
That said, some of those ideas I'm more proud of than others. The Controller Bard is not one of those I'm as proud of.
I think the concept works pretty well for low level, but simply lacks the staying power to be effective if you get into higher levels.
If you are playing low levels only - give it a shot. If you are going to higher levels, I would recommend any of my other Bard builds instead.
Where would you put the ceiling? For isntance APs for my group usually call it quits by level 14. I wouldn't consider it "unplayable" at any level, after all, you have a decent array of spells and inspirations, so you could certainly play to level 14 and contribute, though not necessarily optimally.
The suggestions primarily for CM's are flawed. Bards are working on a lesser BAB, and a higher strength simply isn't going to bridge that gap - even at the mid levels. I would imagine by level 9 you would regret significant investment into tripping and the like.
Feats like Dazzling display will always get you some mileage, though the "shaken" condition is a pretty minor effect at high levels, -2 is still decent debuff - and is essentially a +2 DC for your spells as well.
Nets are great for any character for any level, even just as a "I have nothing else to do right now" action. Entangle lowers AC, Ref saves and reduces movement rates. You also have a chance to restrict movement direction as well.
I guess my recommendation would be - skip tripping feats. Using dazzling display/net as debuffs should be at least moderately effective.
I would probably focus more on CHA than I suggested originally. This will help your casting DC/spells per day as well as intimidate for dazzling display.
You can always trip without the feat by the way. As long as you are out of range of the opponents melee weapons,... Well we are playing until 12 and it's s 20 point buy in, so I could make it useful. But I won't be nearly as effective as I could be with other feats. The idea seems great on paper, but the feats to get it decently viable at higher levels seem too intense for a bard. Maybe a fighter could do it, but even then it's not optimal at all I don't think.
I tried a bard through the first book of Kingmaker with dazzling display before asking for a partial rebuild. I used the standard action demoralize several times, but not once was I in a position to use dazzling display. Shaking a 30' radius just isn't good when you don't have a move action in the same round to position yourself so that multiple foes are in the radius.
For a non-spell thing for a casting focused bard to do just pick up net proficiency and net adept. Invest all your other feats into spells, performance, or skills.
Spell Focus (illusion or enchantment) is good.
Heighten Spell is surprisingly good since Grease is your only reflex targeting spell.
Discordant Voice is pretty much a must-have if you aren't forbidden the book it was published in.
Lingering Performance isn't bad even if it's not as critical as some claim.
Skill Focus and Prodigy are good with Versatile Performance.
Great Fortitude is good. So is Iron Will if you dumped wisdom (and what else is there to dump for a bard?)
Toughness and dodge are better than nothing.
There is no shortage of bard feats.
So really a net for the low levels and then just focus on spells? I thought sticking to mostly spells was a bad idea. Especially when we have a wizard in the group.
If you can afford to dip a couple of levels into Cavalier, Order of the Cockatrice's Braggart ability kicks in at level 2 and makes for a handy addition to an Intimidator - Dazzling Display as a bonus feat, but better! It cuts into your bard progression but you pick up a lot of goodies. You could take the Musketeer archetype for proficiency with firearms - if you're making a ranged attacker, resolving your attacks vs. touch AC is a huge boon.
Just something to consider.
A bard with a firearm would be pretty awesome actually. RP wise at least anyways.
So should I be taking any weapon/combat feats or just focus on spells and utilities? I'm getting mixed messages.
So I'm rethinking my feats. With 10 str I need weapon finesse, but I suppose I could drop Rapid Reload. Because my con is so low, Toughness isn't a bad option. I also want Agile Manuevers for the bonus to CMB. I just don't know the order to take them in. I should probably take toughness because I have 9 health, and Agile Maneuvers because that'll help with the whip attacks like trip and disarm. However, I can only take one of them because the whip won't receive a bonus to damage without weapon finesse. I'm thinking Toughness I can take at level 3, I'll just have to be careful until then. Should I take Rapid Reload? It sounds good, but if the crossbow will become useless at like 8-9 then what a waste of a feat. I think those are really the only feats I think would be useful for me melee wise. Otherwise I keep hearig to invest in spell feats for the higher levels.
If I drop Rapid Reload, am I going to have rounds where I'm doing nothing? I can't just focus on spells, and I can't just focus on melee, so I'm trying to strike a decent middle ground. Ranged attacks seem like they'll fit in that area, but without a heavy feat investment idk if it'll be worth it for the higher levels.
You don’t need Agile Maneuvers for the whip if you got Weapon Finesse. Weapon Finesse grants you the same bonus.
The FAQ wrote:
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
Treantmonk is a brilliant man, but the Controller bard was one of the things we disagreed on.
- Combat maneuvers are weak option, even if you are a full BAB class or a monk.
- The Bard isn’t a full caster so building it as a caster is not really a good option.
- Dazzling Display is highly overrated and especially when you are a bard that gets Dirge of Doom for free. Dirge of Doom has NO SAVE and is an automatic success. Also, by the time you get it you can activate it as a move action.
Treantmonk wrote: stuff I missed you. Very nice to see you back!
I hope everything is well.
Well that eliminates one feat then. Thanks.
I suppose I'll keep the crossbow and rapid reload and stick to that for distance damage, use the rapier for melee if needed (ie cornered), the whip to knock enemies down in front of the barb and monk, and spells as needed. I'll focus most of my feats on things like Spell Focus, Skill Focus, and survivability feats. And possibly a few ranged feats.
Sound about right?
I made a Court Bard with a net and whip for options and took Dazzling Display, which stacks nicely with Satire (-1 to their attack/dmg/etc.) if you can get enough shaken rounds out of DD. Also, I took a level in Thug for skill diversity and their ability to add a round of shaken and, if you hit four rounds of shaken, add a round of frightened. That might not be RAW interpretation though. I might've had an awesome DM.
You know, if I'm okay with being terrible at damage, why would it be a bad idea to choose Teamwork Feats and survivability feats? Then I can control the battlefield simply with my spells, I could take up EWP: Net because I'll be nearby and helping teammates, and then just focus on any feat that will help me debuff and buff. It sounds good, but it might only be good on paper. I haven't had anyone suggest any teamwork feats and I'm guessing there is a reason.
"Go not to the elves for council, for they will say both no and yes."
Bard is a flexible class, but I think you should still focus on something for combat. What that something is, is up to you, really. You can be effective in and out of combat just with your base abilities, but you'll be much more effective if you focus on something.
You don't have to plan out your whole build ahead of time, either. It helps, but it's not essential.
Weapon finesse even for an archer is handy, since sometimes you do get cornered and melee is your best option. I'd say it's a good place to start. You won't be the king of damage, but trips and disarms with the whip can be useful even without the heavy feat investment. As levels increase, monster CMDs will get too high to deal with, but for the early levels this can be a ton of fun.
Spell focus/penetration and feats like that are useful if you want to focus on debuffing enemies with your spells. It's a viable choice, but you do need to be careful rationing your spells. Personally this is where I think Intimidation would fit best, as another debuffing option when you're not casting and an extra -2 to your enemies' saves. But this is something you can choose not to do at all if you don't want to. If you use your spells primarily to buff the party (rather than spells that target your enemy), then you don't need feats to support them.
To make a good archer, it's fairly feat intensive. There are a lot of good archery feats. Crossbow ... personally I think it's a weak weapon. It's useful as a backup if ranged attacks are not your focus. If you really want to be a ranged attacker, I would suggest using a proper bow or pick up firearm proficiency. Three's a lot of options here - if you know what you'd really like to do, we can give more specific advice.
You really want to get the FEAT: Improved Initiative at level 1. For 1 main reason -
As a Bard, people are going to be expecting you to use your Bard song. You want to get that song off while every in your party is in range. There is nothing more frustrating then having that big damage dealing melee type person, running out of the range of everyone else.
Stats
CHA: how high you want to start this out depends a lot on what spells you plan on taking on your bard. If you're going with buffing you don't need to start with a high a CHA and can make up those points later on with magic items.
@Zathyr - I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do. I know I want to debuff enemies and buff the party, and if I can still do damage. I'd like to be a skirmisher I suppose. Go in, strike, and back out. I'll ration my spells and use them at the most opportune times hopefully. I don't want to be all spell casting, and I'd like to either buff the party and debuff the enemy, or do illusions/enchants and make the enemy work for the group. I know I can't do it all, I'm just trying to figure out what will work well with each other.
I got some advice from a friend who said to pick up TWF feats and Weapon Finesse for damage. He's played bards before and does well, they're his preferred class, but he plays 3.5 rather than pathfinder. Is this viable in Pathfinder? Could a whip and rapier combo work or would two rapiers be a better idea?
@Matt2VK - I'm not sure yet if I want to be buffing and debuffing or illusion/enchant spells. If I go for buffing and debuffing, what would you recommend for a starting cha? Remember that I also want to use a lot of the social skills.
Yay, it's nice to see you back, Treatmonk!
But I have some grave issues with your Bard builds, esp the dumping of Wis, which leads to poor Perception and Sense Motive skills, and failed Will saves.
Failing a Will save is really, really bad in PF.
We have a player who did just that, and he constantly fails his Will saves, leading for him twiddling his thumbs in about one combat in three, and once led to PC death.
Well I'm grabbing the perform skill for sense motive, and I'll be putting points into perception (still not great but not terrible), and I grabbed the Adopted Trait and picked up the Gnome one that gives +1 to will saves if an animal is within 30'. Then I bought a raccoon to hang out with.
I'll be picking up Iron Will as well for the will saves. I know that's the worst offender in the build. I can also dump str and leave wis at 10, I just can barely carry anything with me at that point. Idk if the DM will let us bring a pack mule, and why bother having half of the items if they're on a mule and I can't access them anyways.
I'd probably start with a CHA 16 unless I was planning on debuffing/offensive spells. Then I'd go with a CHA 18.
I wouldn't bother with any Feats that extend or give you more rounds of Bard Song as you will have plenty of rounds available when you hit level 3.
You do not really want TWF. As to get the most of out of it requires a full round action. You just wont have the health or the AC to take full round attacks once you hit the upper levels (8+).
If you want to do melee stuff, I'd think strongly about the Spring Attack feat line.
The more I talk to you guys the more I'm seeing a ranged bard is really the best idea. Melee sounds cool, but the AC and low health is an issue. Bards are not meant to be fighters. Whips sound cool, but only for lower levels as they will eventually become useless. Even with the feats, by the time I have them I'll be level 12-13.
My options are ranged (which, from the sounds of it, is not amazing but is better than melee and nothing) or nets (which leaves me with no melee damage and just spells/netting people).
For a controlling bard (buffs, debuffs, occasional utility/charm spells), what would you say is the best option for physical damage? I can't just not have physical damage, and I can't just do spells, so if you were in my shoes what would you do to make this style of bard work?
Rannan wrote: @Zathyr - I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do. I know I want to debuff enemies and buff the party, and if I can still do damage. I'd like to be a skirmisher I suppose. Go in, strike, and back out. I'll ration my spells and use them at the most opportune times hopefully. I don't want to be all spell casting, and I'd like to either buff the party and debuff the enemy, or do illusions/enchants and make the enemy work for the group. I know I can't do it all, I'm just trying to figure out what will work well with each other.
I got some advice from a friend who said to pick up TWF feats and Weapon Finesse for damage. He's played bards before and does well, they're his preferred class, but he plays 3.5 rather than pathfinder. Is this viable in Pathfinder? Could a whip and rapier combo work or would two rapiers be a better idea?
One of the best options for TWF in Pathfinder is actually sword and board. Rapier and light shield, if you're finessing. The shield is better for survivability and still manages to be an effective weapon with the right feats. This is, however, not really compatible with a skirmishing fighting style. D&D had feats that would allow you to move in, attack with both weapons, then move back. Pathfinder doesn't have those. If you want to make use of TWF you need to basically stay in melee range to get full attack actions.
You'd want to invest more into Con for better staying power, and probably drop the charisma a bit since focusing on TWF means less spellcasting in combat. Some of your spells are purely verbal, but many have somatic components which require a hand free to cast. All in all, it really doesn't seem like what you've described as wanting for the character.
DrDeth wrote: Yay, it's nice to see you back, Treatmonk!
But I have some grave issues with your Bard builds, esp the dumping of Wis, which leads to poor Perception and Sense Motive skills, and failed Will saves.
Failing a Will save is really, really bad in PF.
We have a player who did just that, and he constantly fails his Will saves, leading for him twiddling his thumbs in about one combat in three, and once led to PC death.
A bard with 7 wisdom has the same will saves as a rogue with 12 from level 4 and the same as a rogue with 14 from level 10. You don't consider rogues with less than 16 wisdom unplayable so why are bards with a wisdom dump?
Bards can use charisma for sense motive.
Not everyone needs to be perceptive. The cleric and ranger can max perception and that's enough. More checks have diminishing returns. Unless you're an archaeologist perception is not the bard's job.
It is not. Believe it or not the net/whip sounds like the most fun. Just moving around the field tripping and disarming everyone, casting when needed, sounds pretty awesome. It's just that it's not viable, and that sucks.
How can I make that build work? How can I stay effective at tripping, disarming, and moving around without dying? I know I'll have to stay out of threat range or else I'll provoke an AoO with the whip, and I'm guessing moving around the battlefield is generally a bad idea, so how can I make it work or how should I play to make it work?
The worst part is that the whip/trip/disarm feat tree just doesn't work, so likely that style of build is dead in the water and I'll have to find an alternative.
Someone a while back made a thread about using the Net. Had a lot of very useful info on how and when to use it. No idea what that thread was called or where it is (did a quick search and didn't spot it.)
Couple points that need double checking (no access to books at moment)
1) Nets attack touch AC. This means you don't really need to be skilled in their use and still have a good chance to hit with them.
2) I believe half-orcs can take a alternate racial trait and pick up proficiency with Nets at the cost of their proficiency with scimitars/falchions.
3) Nets can be crazy powerful in a limited way. They can be so powerful in their own way, if this is a home game, I'd clear it with your GM first. This way the GM knows what to expect and it doesn't hit the GM as a surprise.
One idea I had was a Ranged Arcane Duelist, invested in Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot to spread the pain of Disruptive and Spellbreaker over a 15' radius. Additionally, picking up the Shoanti tattoo trait to also make use of a couple of sets of bolas for ranged trip attacks.
DrDeth wrote: Yay, it's nice to see you back, Treatmonk! Agreed! Yay!
DrDeth wrote: But I have some grave issues with your Bard builds, esp the dumping of Wis, which leads to poor Perception and Sense Motive skills, and failed Will saves. Eh, even with Wisdom 7, a 2nd level Bard has a +1 Will Save, a sky-high Sense Motive (at least +7, very possibly +9 or more) from Versatile Performance, and a +3 Perception. That's just not that bad. It makes him clearly not the party scout, but it's unlikely he's got the lowest Perception or Will Save in the party either. Especially if he puts some additional resources into Will Save.
DrDeth wrote: Failing a Will save is really, really bad in PF. No disagreement here...but nobody can be good at everything.
DrDeth wrote: We have a player who did just that, and he constantly fails his Will saves, leading for him twiddling his thumbs in about one combat in three, and once led to PC death. Were they specifically a Bard? Or another class with a Good Will Save? Dumping Wis hurts a lot less on those. Especially with some additional investment in Will Save specifically (Indomitable Faith, Halfling or Half Orc save enhancers, etc.)
I read somewhere on the web that without net proficiency you have a 75% chance to still get it to work. It's pretty powerful against a single opponent at least. I'm not sure if I can net more than enemy at a time though. It seems nice, but then all I have is spells and nets. Seems like I'll run out of one of them real fast.
Does it seem like I want to play as another class? I ask because in a week or two there's another campaign starting and maybe I'll reroll if I can't get this to work. In all honesty I think I'm going to end up being an archer bard because it seems the most feasible. The most boring combat-wise, but also the most effective.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DrDeth wrote: But I have some grave issues with your Bard builds, esp the dumping of Wis, which leads to poor Perception and Sense Motive skills, and failed Will saves. Eh, even with Wisdom 7, a 2nd level Bard has a +1 Will Save, a sky-high Sense Motive (at least +7, very possibly +9 or more) from Versatile Performance, and a +3 Perception. That's just not that bad. It makes him clearly not the party scout, but it's unlikely he's got the lowest Perception or Will Save in the party either. Especially if he puts some additional resources into Will Save.
DrDeth wrote: Failing a Will save is really, really bad in PF. No disagreement here...but nobody can be good at everything.
DrDeth wrote: We have a player who did just that, and he constantly fails his Will saves, leading for him twiddling his thumbs in about one combat in three, and once led to PC death. Were they specifically a Bard? Or another class with a Good Will Save?
Will saves are just not something you dump. It's just plain foolish. Esp with a 20 pt buy in.
It's just poor math to dump Wis down to 7 just to take a 16 to a 17. And sure, one can burn a feat to get Iron will, but you get back less from that than you do by simply not dumping WIS, since two very good skills come with that Wis. Not to mention that WIS drain attacks are not that rare.
True, one can take Versatile Performance in Oratory or Sing and get a nice bonus to Sense Motive. But that means you're not taking it in Dance or other good ones... well except later.
Yes, a Bard.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Zark wrote: Treantmonk wrote: stuff I missed you. Very nice to see you back!
I hope everything is well.
It is, thanks! The rest of life gets busy and I don't have time for forums, but had some time off so thought I would pop by with my 2c.
DrDeth wrote: But I have some grave issues with your Bard builds... Perfect guides are impossible anyways since different groups play different styles, and different GM's run things different ways. Only you know the kind of group you play in.
All my guides are my opinion only. I don't want people reading them like gospel. Take a read, and if there is stuff you like, or it gives you some ideas, then mission accomplished. Disregard the stuff you disagree with.
I've never written a guide that wasn't criticized by multiple posters. There are certain cases I've considered them objectively wrong, but most of the time it's just different playstyles/prioritization.
For the record, it's very seldom I dump a stat below 8 these days...guess my playstyle changes too.
|
