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Will saves are just not something you dump. It's just plain foolish. Esp with a 20 pt buy in.
Depends on your definition of 'dump'. I generally don't hold a positive number at 1st level to be a dump, and with Indomitable Faith, you can have that as a Wis 7 Bard. Heck, I can manage a +3 Will Save on a 1st level Bard with Wis 7 if I choose to, and that's not counting Iron Will. A +2 is easy, and a +1 even easier.
It's just poor math to dump Wis down to 7 just to take a 16 to a 17.
In what and opposed to what?
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 14 on a Human Archer Bard is almost certainly worth the dump.
And sure, one can burn a feat to get Iron will, but you get back less from that than you do by simply not dumping WIS, since two very good skills come with that Wis. Not to mention that WIS drain attacks are not that rare.
There are ways other than Feats to increase Will Save. Wis drain and damage is an issue, as is lower Perception, but again, every build has a price, and that one's pretty low considering what you get for it (the above build gets, depending on how you assigned things, +2 damage on all attacks, or +1 to attack, AC, and Reflex Saves, or +1 each HP and Skill Points per level and +1 to Fortitude Saves).
True, one can take Versatile Performance in Oratory or Sing and get a nice bonus to Sense Motive. But that means you're not taking it in Dance or other good ones... well except later.
Dance isn't necessary at all for an archer, and even for a melee character can afford not to have it. Not having Sense Motive until level 6 hurts much more, and given the inability to reassign skill points...well, I certainly always take Sing or Oratory at 2nd level.
Yes, a Bard.
Must not have spent resources on overcoming the downside, then.
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How bad is Arcane Duelist? It LOOKS okay. And I'm okay giving up Bardic Knowledge and Lore Master and Jack of All Trades. Knowledge, I can put points into I suppose if I need/want to. Jack of All doesn't bother me because there's specific skills I want, the rest would be cool to have but not "essential" to me.
You also lose Versatile Performance, which hurts. But the worst cost is actually disguised as a benefit. You get Arcane Bond...on a weapon. But there's a problem with that, which is that you effectively can't cast unless holding said weapon. And that really sucks, given how awesome and useful Bard spells in non-combat situations.
What part of Arcane Duelist do you really want? If it's just the Arcane Strike...that's what Feats are for.
What should my stat spread look like for this type of build? Weapon Finesse would obviously be a good feat choice. I think. Right?
Weapon Finesse is always good on a Dex based melee build. And Dex builds really helps Bard AC since they're restricted to light armor.
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If going Dex based, Medium Armor is completely unnecessary, and I'd skip Arcane Duelist.
Heck, even if you do want Medium Armor Chelish Diva is a better choice than Arcane Duelist, IMO.
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By level 10 it's +2 to my weapon for one feat. What's so bad about it? Is it just a crap feat or something?
No, Arcane Strike is a great Feat (and +3 damage by 10th level, actually). All melee Bards should take it...but there aren't actually that many other Feats they need, making it a poor trade for Bardic Knowledge, and the archetype Arcane Duelist is thus somewhat questionable.
Also, what would be the best weapon for me to use on melee? A rapier for the weapon finesse?
If going Weapon Finesse? A rapier is absolutely the way to go. Unless you want Piranha Strike, in which case Short Sword isn't a bad call, or unless going Dawnflower Dervish, in which case you obviously go scimitar.
For what it is worth, I'm playing a dwarven bard in CoT. I took some hints from TM's guide, knowing I wasn't going to have an "optimized" character. However, I wanted to play an eccentric dwarven story-teller who likes to wade into battle belting out drinking songs. So, he's primarily a buffer, but I've invested feats into trip and the whip. When a cleric, wizard, or some other enemy who I know may have a low CMD shows up, I pull out the whip. We're 9th right now, so we'll see if it still remains to be effective. However, there've been a few encounters where I've shut down the primary BBEG with trips. I think it's perfect to bring it out only in certain situations. If it was as effective all the time, I'd just be ticking off the DM.
I forgot to add; so Thank you, TM.
By level 10 it's +2 to my weapon for one feat. What's so bad about it? Is it just a crap feat or something?No, Arcane Strike is a great Feat (and +3 damage by 10th level, actually). All melee Bards should take it...but there aren't actually that many other Feats they need, making it a poor trade for Bardic Knowledge, and the archetype Arcane Duelist is thus somewhat questionable.
Also, what would be the best weapon for me to use on melee? A rapier for the weapon finesse?If going Weapon Finesse? A rapier is absolutely the way to go. Unless you want Piranha Strike, in which case Short Sword isn't a bad call, or unless going Dawnflower Dervish, in which case you obviously go scimitar.
+1
@ RannanOne of the most important feats is improved initiative. With improved initiative and weapon finess you can buff, debuff and use your whip. I would stay core rogue. If debuffs is something you want I’f go Dirge Bard or Chelish Diva (Chelish Diva is alled Diva at d20pfsrd.com)
If Dawnflower Dervish is what you want, then I suggest you rebuild your concept and your character. To me loosing inspire courage is not worth it unless you plan to build a pure melee bard that is focused on dealing damage. A controller bard not only controls his enemies, but also his allies. Loosing inspire courage mean you lose the best party buff in the game: inspire courage + mood Hope + haste. Also you lose you proficiency with the whip.
I would play core bard or play Dirge Bard or Chelish Diva.
Dirge Bard and Chelish Diva both keep a lot of the Iconic bardic abilities and get some good debuffs as well. Dirge Bard get a lot of good debuff abilities and he gets some bonus spells from the Necromancy school. There are a lot of good ray spells if you focus on that. Sure he loses versatile performance, but he keeps Bardic knowledge and pretty much all other good bardic abilities. It also get +4 bonus on saves against fear, energy drain, death effects, and necromantic effects. Hade it been me then I would have played core bard or Dirge Bard.
Stay away from rappid reload. At lower levels you won’t need it at higher levels you got better things to do that using a cross bow. If you plan to take PBS + PS, then I would rather pick arcane strike and use a composite short bow.
You could pick two archer feats (PBS + PS) if you really want to focus on rays (Dirge Bard) or focus on stuff like tanglefoot bags, but it isn’t necessary actually.
Spell focus and spell penetration aren't bad choices. Again, improved initiative is a must have. Boosting your Fort save is also good, but if you play a Dirge Bard you may not need boostin that save. Stay away from Dodge.
Before you do anything, look at the rest of the party and decide what role you want to play. You don’t have to be a damage dealer, to have fun, or let me put it this way: when all the other is getting +8 to hit and +5 to damage and some of the enemy is blind because of your Glitterdust then the Party’s DPR will skyrocket.
Race: Human for the bonus feat, skill point and favored class bonus that grants you the option of picking more spells known. You will love that option, trust me. If not human play Half-orc or Halv-elf since they too can pick the human favored class bonus. Also both have a flexible stat boost that goes to con and they are medium. Aasimars favored class bonus is also good, but not that good.
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Suggested stats:
Str 10, Dex 16, con 12, int 10, wis, 8, char 18. If you dump wis to 7 I would boost str or int. 14 dex might be enough, but high dex is always nice. Will saves and reflex saves are your good saves but it actually nice to keep them good so I suggest you only dump wisdom to 8.
If you plan to multiclass get a trait that grants +2 to CL. I suggest stay 8 level bard. Level 9 bard is a bit boring so you could pick a level fighter, but pure bard is far better.
At level one I would start with Weapon Finesse and improved initiative and use a whip.
Why no dervish dancer build?
Go dawnflower dervish or dervish dancer and you will for sure be effective in combat.
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Court Bards best debuff is single enemies though. If all her spells and abilities effected a range like other Bard abilities, I'd be down for it. But the best one is single target and I'm sure we won't be fighting individuals constantly.
Uh...Satire is their big debuff, and effects all enemies who can hear it.
Archivist Bard looks kind of alright. The Naturalist sounds nice, although I wonder if I have to keep that performance up for the bonus. IMO once you convey a weakness you don't need to keep singing it, but idk. Maybe the characters with <7 int need a reminder haha. I could RP Indiana Jones, but I'm sure that's been done a million times before.
Archivist can be a lot of fun, yeah.
I didn't read the whole thread (sorry) but bards get Blistering Invective. It has no feat tax and accomplishes exactly what Dazzling Display does, though it does take a casting. Still better than a 2 feat tax, and its a standard action.
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Does intimidate have any real use out of combat or is bluff and diplomacy better for just about everything?
Intimidate is quite useful to make people who are already hostile do things for you right now. Over the long term, or with people who aren't already at least unfriendly, Diplomacy is quite a bit better.
Edit: I also changed my wisdom to 12 to avoid any will issues.
That may be excessive. :)
Also, slightly off topic, am I allowed to post links to other sites? I'd like to just post my sheet and see how it all looks to everyone so far. I'm sure I've messed up somewhere.
Generally? Yeah, that's fine. People post links like that all the time.
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20. I put my +2 in cha.
7+5+5+2+2=21. So you're a point over.
I'd go something like this, given your premise, if you don't want to dump:
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 17
If willing to dump a bit, a Wis or Str of 8 will up your con to 12 and be a very good idea, IMO. A 7 would also up Cha to 18 if you drop Int to 12.
Your saves suffer a bit, but your other areas become quite a bit more effective.
Remember this is my first bard and my first game in like 18 months. I've never done a spell caster either. It's all new to me.
Noted. :)
Edit: I know I keep trying to get melee to work, but I can't buff/debuff/charm/skillmonkey and melee. I tried to make it work but it is not optimal at all unless I do an archetype, and I don't like any of them.
Uh...yes you can. You'll likely need to dump Wis, but you can manage:
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 18
That's not a bad set of melee stats at all if you grab an Agile weapon later. It's not quite optimal, but very workable.
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7 str means I'd have to get rid of most of my inventory :( and 7 wis gives me terrible stats for perc. If I don't terribly need perc, sure dump both.
Perception is nice, but a +2 at 1st level and going up from there isn't actually bad, just mediocre.
And if I do combat, won't it be kinda useless at the higher levels when I have way more spells?
Not necessarily. Being good at spells is nice, but you simply don't have enough of them to cast good and effective ones every round of every combat...so you need a backup option.
If I sacrifice human and go elf I can get slightly better stats for a melee bard with still high cha, but I lose all those human bonuses. Kinda sucks.
Elf isn't worth it as a focused casting Bard.
Really my options are ranged bard or melee bard, eh? Gotta have one because I can't just do spells, and the whip won't last forever. I know I want to have high cha and decent int so I can be a halfa**ed skill monkey at the very least.
You'll be an excellent skill-monkey with those. And having ranged or melee as a legitimate option seems a good idea, yeah.
Would you mind walking me through a quick round too?
Sure.
I know that I'll cast Inspire Courage if it'll be a decent fight, and then what? Trip/disarm everyone?
It's up to you what you do then, and depends a lot on what focus you want to go with.
How many battles do you typically go through before resting to replenish spells? Idk how liberal to be with my spells.
4 to 6 is typical, but especially at higher levels, you'll be able to control that a fair bit.
I keep hearing my AC and health will be kinda low for being really involved in melee, so would I pursue the Lunge feat tree or what? I'm not opposed to being ranged either.
AC will be okay with a buckler, actually, which you'll definitely want to get. Or less important if you go ranged. HP will be mediocre, but you can put Favore Class bonuses into them if you like.
And ranged is an option, and a very good one mechanically, but a harder one for a spell-specialized Bard since it's so Feat intensive. Doable as a Human, though.
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If just aiming for Dervish Dance, why not go Dawnflower Dervish? It's very solid and doesn't delay any Bard stuff, though it does scrap Inspire Courage for people who aren't you. Of course, Bard spells remain great buffing effects, and you, personally, get much more dangerous.
I think a halfling bard with a whip, weapon finesse and the halfling racial trait helpfull can go a long way.
You only need to focus on DEX, CHA, CON, you could even do CHA, DEX, CON, depending on needs.
Chelish diva offers itself for this, because of the heavy debuffs.
Else, a kitsune lotus geisha is also a powerful thing, only they use whip proficiency and probably best go for archery. DC´s do get really high, since you get a racial +1 on enchantment and then both spell foci. I´m currently playing one and it´s big fun.
I'm thinking I'm going to go regular bard, 9 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 12 wis, 17 cha. I'll grab imp. init and Fast Learner at level 1 (fast learner should give the same as toughness in the long run), level 3 will be skill focus possibly, Extra Performance most likely. I'll plan more after that. Eventually I want to use Discordant Voice with Virtuoso Performance. That's 1D6+1D6 extra damage for my friends at level 10. I'll burn through performances though.
I think you need to decide what your role is going to be and build it from there. Before picking feats you should decide what you want to do.
Some reflections on your feat picks:
Improved Init. Great feat! You may not need it at level 1, but it is a must have at least by level 5. I would probably pick it by level 3 depending on what feat I want at level 1, but picking it at level 1 isn't bad :)
Fast learner is one of the worst feats in the game. It is far worse than toughness since it only give you a hp + skill point. It does not let you pick a favored class bonus and a HP or skills point. Also you lose your bonus if you multiclass. Toughness at least grants you a HP + whatever you want (HP, skill or favored class bonus) and Toughness grants you a HP even if you multiclass.
Skill focus is not worth it. You are a bard and you need all the feats you can get. Don’t blow it on skill focus.
Extra Performance sucks! By level 4 or 5 you regret picking it. By level 7 or 8 you never run out of rounds and you will hate that you picked it.
Here is the deal: at lower levels bardic performance isn’t that great. By level 5 it is good, but by level 5 you get by. At level 7 bardic performance is awesome, but at level 7 rounds per day isn’t a problem, especially if you have a high charisma.
Discordant Voice is a nice feat but you can’t pick it until level 11 since you don’t get at feat at level 10.
Virtuoso Performance is not Worth it for an extra d6, but it is perhaps worth it if you combine different bardic performances (inspire courage and Dirge of doom), which you can if you plan ahead and you will still get 2d6 extra damage. Although at level 11 you only have 2 or 3 level 4 spells peer day and there are a lot of other good spells by then. Trust me burning rounds won’t be a problem. But more to the point by level 11 there are far more powerful buffs your teammate wants. This is the one they want: inspire courage and haste. If you got a rod of quicken spell you also add quicken good hope with a nice bonus of +6 to hit, +5 to damage, +1 to AC, +2 to will and fort saves, +3 to reflex saves, +30 to move and a bonus attack when you full attack. They much rather have that then Virtuoso Performance.
Could you give us some info on the rest of the group?
Edit:
As Deadmanwalking has pointed out. You can’t be good at everything. You need to decide what you want to do. I wouldn’t go for wisdom 7, but my Bard in Corse of Crismon throne had wisdom 7 and that was no problem at al. There are traits to help you and Versatile performance helps you with sense motive. As for perception that isn’t a problem. It is still a class skill for you. Remember, this is a corporate game. I have even played character that hasn’t max out perception and I’ve even played character that hasn’t put any ranks at all in perception. No problem at all.
A not on Versatile performance dance. If you plan to fly a lot and got a grupy DM/GM this is a good pick evetually becuase it let you put ranks in fly without having reliable means of flying every day, but if you plan a dex build I'd probably stay away from Versatile performance dance.
I lose the vanilla bard stuff. Plus I like being able to buff the party at the same time. Losing one level of bard isn't bad to keep all the vanilla bard stuff that I want. Going one level into fighter gets me an extra feat at level 1, scimitar proficiency (only one I care about), a better base fortitude, and only slows me down (bard wise) a little bit.
I'm still considering it, but I like the fighter1/bard11 better so far. This way I get good melee, still can buff the party with all that a vanilla bard can, skill points are still good enough to be the face of the party and a mild skill monkey.
Why do you want scimitar proficiency? If you plan a bard that will focus on fighting using Dervish Dance feat build that kind of bard, if not you don’t need scimitar proficiency. Remember, you can’t fight like a killing machine if you spend round casting spells and changing bardic performances and doing all other kind of crazy stuff. If you get into melee you also risk getting hit and you need to move so you burn move actions.
edit:
Lunge feat tree sucks.
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Okay, it sounds like you mostly want a melee Bard, with a sideline in casting. Is that correct?
If it is, you probably want to focus on your attack stat over Cha. A 16 Cha or so is more than enough for most purposes (certainly skills)...just not Save DCs beyond the early levels. But if you want to mainly do buffs and other spells that don't have Save DCs, then you don't really need that.
Regardless, you are going to be casting spells in combat, so if you want Medium Armor go Chelish Diva...on the other hand, if going with a Dex build, you probably shouldn't really care about that, as light armor will be more than sufficient.
If you do go buffing-Bard, don't worry about wasting spells too much, you'll be casting one or two buffs at the beginning of combat (maybe more with prep-time or Quickened spells) and then just fighting in melee...so not a spell every round or anything. It's also worth noting that if you go Dervish Dance you can't use a shield.
From your description, I have a couple of suggestions for what you might want to do:
Idea #1: Dervish Dance/Offensive Casting build. This one actually does most of what you want...but necessitates a non-human race. Either Halfling or Musetouched Aasimar. Or, you could go with the Dual Talented Human Racial Trait, that'd work too (though it'd be slightly less optimal mechanically). Either way you distribute your stats like this:
Str 7 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 (Swap Str and Wis if you like)
And then you get bonuses to both Dex and Cha from race. You go Dawnflower Dervish. Your first Feat is probably Improved Initiative, followed by Spell Focus (Enchantment) at 3rd, then Arcane Strike at 5th, then Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) at 7th. You put level up points into Charisma and make sure to get a Belt of Dex and Headband of Charisma when you can. You'll be a solid offensive caster (focusing on Enchantment spells...which is practically the whole Bard offense list), and pretty solid melee character to boot. You miss out on Bardic Knowledge but not Versatile Performance, and can only Inspire yourself...but spells like Haste and Good Hope are still on your list and work on everyone. In short, you've got skill monkey, spellcasting, and melee down cold, but your buffing is kinda weak...for a Bard (ie: still on par with the best other buffers out there).
This seems the closest build to doing exactly what you want, honestly.
Idea #2: Another possibility is a bog-standard melee Bard. Focusing on buff spells rather than offensive ones, and Str rather than Dex. Chelish Diva is a good Archetype for this one for the Medium and eventually Heavy armor proficiencies. You can stick with Human if you want for this build, though Half Elf ort Half Orc are better for the free two-handed weapon proficiencies (and a Half Orc can also grab Sacred Tattoo, which is pretty awesome, and shaman's Apprentice isn't half bad either). Stats will look something like this, before the racial bonus (which will go in Str).
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 14 (Swap Dex and Con if you like, though I wouldn't).
Your first Feat on this build should likely be Arcane Strike, with Power Attack following at 3rd and various other combat or skill Feats following after that. For the first few levels you'll fight with a Longsword and Buckler (to help out your otherwise mediocre AC)...and you can keep doing that the whole way up if you like (and perhaps should if going straight Bard) but as a Chelish Diva, around 5th you get Medium Armor, and can swap to a two-handed fighting style for more damage without changing your AC too much (especially with Mirror Image available to help defend you), and will eventually even get Heavy Armor and can walk around casting in full plate.All level ups go to Str, and physical enhancers and Charisma enhancers are solid.
This build sacrifices AC and offensive spellcasting (and Bardic Knowledge if going Chelish Diva) for a much more powerful melee attack and better buffing capabilities. It's a solid. classic, build. A version swapping Dex and str, going Human or maybe elf and focusing on Archery and Archery Feats is also available, and pretty much the same conceptually.
But honestly, build #1 seems a much closer match to what you seem to be looking for.
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I'll try out option one. I like the sounds of it better. As for the feats, do I need weapon finesse as well to use my dex as my + to hit, or does Dervish Dance add my dex to my hit as well as my damage?
Cool. And Dervish Dance does indeed add Dex to to-hit as well as damage...though only on scimitars. You'd still need Weapon Finesse for, well, any other weapon.