Rannan's page

This thread is the one that mentioned using Favored Enemy with the Favored Terrain for massive damage to any one enemy but I didn't understand the way they explained it. To me the bonuses from Favored Terrain shouldn't come attached to Favored Enemy but I might be missing something.

For PFS games, would Urban, Mountain, Forest, and Underground be the best options for Favored Terrain? Possibly Plains as well?

And if I put Instant Enemy on someone and use Hunters Bond, will it give them half of the total for that particular enemy, or nothing if he isn't normally one of my favored enemies? And now that I'm looking at it, a level 8 or 9 animal companion will just be a glass cannon. Their health will be for a level 8/9, but they share FE and FT, so they would have a +20/22 to a bunch of things like damage, hit, and init as well, correct?

Oh alright. I'll try to get it moved then. I figured I would ask in the PFS section because it's a PFS campaign rather than just PF. I know there are some scenarios and modules for level 12+ characters , so I'm hoping my GM wants to do those or I can try to find another group that does once we get to that point.

So I've been looking at Horizon Walker for my ranger and I'm not sure how well it'll work. A lot of people praise it and say it's great when built correctly, but I've also seen people saying that you're better off just going straight ranger. From what I've read, ranger 8, rogue 2, HW 10 seems to give the best benefits for favored terrains and terrain mastery.

Let me back up a minute. I started as a ranger archer, and was planning on taking Monstrous Mount and getting a griffin for pounce and rake. Then I started looking into prestige classes and HW looked pretty cool and seems like it'll do well with a ranger. However, for it to be fully optimized (and a bit ridiculous if the math is correct), it looks like I'll take 8 levels of ranger (I'm assuming for the second favored terrain), 2 levels of rogue for Terrain Mastery, and 10 levels of HW for all that good stuff. Additionally, I'll take the Extra Rogue Talent feat and take multiple Terrain Mastery to get multiple +2 to ALL my favored terrains, correct?

When done properly it is supposed to end up with around +20-22 to hit, damage, init and more. However, will that make up for the loss of combat feats and the loss of a pet? I get that I could still have a pet, but a level 8 pet when your several levels higher is kind of useless, so I would give half of my bonus to my group instead to optimize group damage.

I've also heard of people using Favored Enemy to coincide with the bonuses, but it seems shaky. One person said that by designating the enemy as whatever your Favored Enemy is will give you the terrain bonus as well but I don't understand why or how that works.

Can anyone shed any light on a HW focused around an archer ranger and how well it'll work in a PFS setting? I assume great because PFS usually takes place in less terrains than a homebrew game or anything, so you can really stack the favored terrains.

Well that answers that. Thanks guys.

I'm thinking of making my ranger a trapper, but I'm thinking traps in the sense like a bombs, mundane traps like spikes under a hidden pit, etc. I'm thinking I'd have to have engineer as a profession (along with trying to figure out why my ranger is making bomb traps on occasion) to know HOW to do these things, and the Craft skill Trapmaking for the ABILITY to do so.

My question is how often is this going to be useful? It sounds awesome, being able to make traps or bombs, but how often will the chance come up? And I'll have to carry a pretty large array of items to make things on the fly, correct?

I guess I'm asking if it is worth the investment or if I should just go with something like Craft Armor or Craft Bow instead.

Hah! You can't! You spent the money you should have been using to buy flint and steel and firewood and lamp oil to get another +1 to damage on your weapon! "Who needs fire," you said!

I have yet to find a problem that the proper application of fire cannot solve.

Yeah I meant to write improved snapshot rather than precise shot. Imp. Precise Shot is definitely a must. The group always contains melee that wade right in, and so far it seems like there are pillars and other items for cover constantly. The I still have +7 to hit already, but +7 is way better than +3. I plan on taking boon companion at 5, then I only have one level of an underpowered pet. I still have to figure out where to put Monstrous Companion so I can have a griffin. I really wanted a big cat for pounce and rake, so a griffon is perfect. I'm going to skip the feat to fly on it though. It'd be nice but there's too many archery feats I should focus on instead of trying to fly around when it will only be viable a portion of the time.

I'm happy to learn that Combat Reflexes, Snapshot, and Imp. Snapshot aren't definites for archery like Deadly Aim is. That gives me a little more wiggle room for flavor or style that I want. Is a griffon really worth it as a pet? I mean I won't always have a pet available to me in all scenarios so idk if it's worth the feat investment. There's Imp. Precise shot, Manyshot, Iron Will, Vital Strike. Suddenly I have more options than I thought.

Idk what he was doing but at level 1 he could do three attacks vs my one. That's a pretty big difference in damage.

Rannan wrote:

well these are the two guides I was going to go by, which are very similar minus Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes. I think I'm going to go with Boon Companion and just stay back a little further from the main melee. Is this an alright idea or is there a better feat setup than both of these?

One and two . Not much of a different besides Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes, and a little bit of the order.

Depending on your character and your proximity to melee, Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot may not be that big of a bonus. And they're really a package deal altogether. Without Combat Reflexes Snap Shot isn't very worthwhile, and without Improved Snap Shot Combat Reflex isn't worthwhile for an archer. So, if you usually stay pretty far away from everyone during combat, and wouldn't regularly be in the range of ISS anyways, you could probably get by ignoring it and instead pickup boon companion. It definitely helps to free up your feat progression a bit, which as you are obseving is a bit starved. However, upping your effective companion level is a big deal, and goes a longway to helping them contribute a lot more in combat. WIthout it, I find them to be very fragile and lacking in ability to hit compared to the enemies I'm fighting (unless it's a favored enemy). Boon Companion really helps boost the animal companion to the right power level for your level.

Typically I like to play it safe and fire from a distance. If I die I have to start all over from level 1 and that means a new group. I like this group. I generally try to stay 20-30 ft away so I can take full attacks but prevent melee from getting a full attack on me, if an attack at all. So I'll ditch combat reflexes, snapshot, and imp. Snapshot. That frees up a spot for Boom Companion and maybe something like Monstrous Mount if I want a griffon. I've thought about getting a flying mount/pet but it seemed really feat intensive to get. Not as much anymore. But still, things like Cluster Shot might be a better option.

I was a little nervous to be standing up behind the fighter, even with a high AC from my dex. I'll see what other feats are available too. I might be able to be a late switch hitter, but because I'm cautious I'm leery against melee at the moment.

well these are the two guides I was going to go by, which are very similar minus Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes. I think I'm going to go with Boon Companion and just stay back a little further from the main melee. Is this an alright idea or is there a better feat setup than both of these?

One and two . Not much of a different besides Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes, and a little bit of the order.

Well unless the ranger takes Combat Reflexes. Then he gets a little more. I'm still trying to figure out how to put that into the build along with Boon Companion and be an archer. I may have to switch to a switch hitter and deal with the 14 str. Not ideal but not bad either.

Wow I have more advantages over a ZA then I thought. A lot more. Now I definitely have to take Boon Companion (before I wasn't sure if it was needed, but it sounds like it can be a huge help in combat). I picked Undead as my first favored enemy and haven't had to choose favored terrain yet. I was figuring either forest, mountain, or underground for dungeons. My next favored enemy will be Humanoid (human).

I thought for sure the ZA was going to be better. There seems to be countless threads on how they are a machine, but not many threads or guides explaining how a ranger archer can be amazing other than Lastoths guide, and I can't always be riding a horse so I figured I wouldn't be as optimized as that.

I think he was using his Flurry attacks when we were playing and that is why it seemed like he was out damaging me so much. I didn't have rapid shot at the time so he was hitting more often and therefore doing more damage. But now I see I have a lot of other advantages that make up for the minimal difference in damage. I'm feeling much better about this. I try not to min/max, but I like to be as effective as possible. I wouldn't want to purposely choose something that is less than optimal simply for flavor.

Rannan: you seem to have this massive fixation on hurting things; why is that? Are the games you play that focussed on combat that you have to eke out the last nth of damage? (I've never played PFS)

No. Prior to realizing how much damage a ZA could do my main concern was when I should take the Boon Companion feat and whether or not I should take Combat Reflexes. But if they're able to do just as many social situations and more damage, I want to stay competitive to not feel sub-par. And so far we haven't really had too many social situations that everyone wasn't able to partake in, so I'm not sure how that will work either. And the ZA and ranger skills don't overlap really.

As it stands now I can usually kill enemies, even non-favored and not within 30 ft, in two turns if my arrows hit. One turn if both of my shots hit using Rapid Shot. I just know that in the future it won't be like that, and the monk will slowly gain on me. I'm looking into switch hitter, and consider only doing 1-2 favored enemies so Instant Enemy becomes a really good buff. +2 to three different types of enemies is nice but +6 to one type of enemy and then any one of my choosing once a day seems like an option. But that'll just give me burst damage rather than steady.

I suppose I should just focus on my playstyle and what I like best rather than outdoing or matching another class. It's not I will be useless to the group no matter what, so I should just try to have fun and play what I enjoy rather than trying to min/max. Everyone on here so far is saying I'll still be competitive anyways, so I'll just go with what I like and hopefully not die.

EDIT: It appears that my dex and str should have been reversed for a switch hitter. 18 str, 14 dex rather than 18 dex, 14 str.

I thought about going horse but I know I won't be able to use it all the time so cat or wolf will be a better option. I believe cat is better until level 7, then wolf becomes the better option.

@Avr: it's PFS so I can't change my characters class. I could retire him, but I'm one scenario away from level 3 so it would take 9 weeks for me to get back to where I was, and by then everyone else will be 9 weeks ahead.

I have stacked stealth and perception, but so far the opportunity hasn't really come up where I can scout ahead that much. I'll keep trying and aiming for that though. Then I can cast Gravity Bow on ahead of time. I'll also have to look into buying it, but I don't think I'll be able to until we come across one in a scenario or module.

And now I'm seeing I definitely have to take Boon Companion, as it doesn't seem like I can out damage the ZA using just my bow, and a pet three levels lower seems like it'll be too weak to do a lot of damage and might die.

Absolutely ranger is as good as zen archer. Remember your friends:

-> Boon companion

-> Instant enemy

-> Gravity bow

-> Other spells and wands!

The spells will definitely help, but the ZA will offer more consistent damage. Gravity Bow I should be casting before combat rather than wasting a full round. I've heard stacking FE on just a small number of enemies can make Instant Enemy really good though.

I did not consider a switch hitter. I figured a full archer would do more damage from a safe distance, and eventually at the higher levels I can take combat reflexes, snapshot, and imp. snapshot and stay pretty close to the front lines to hammer enemies with AoO's. I have only 14 str so I'm not sure that's enough to be an effective switch hitter.

And no natural encounters. It's actually PFS if that helps. Urban Ranger loses AnCo iirc and I'm already feeling like I'm going to be hurting to keep up with damage.

The more I look at it, the ranger only has spells, a companion, and FE/FT on a zen archer. Otherwise a zen archer does better damage wise and gets many of the main archery feats early on. I've already put two levels into ranger. Should I try a hybrid of the two or just stick with ranger now?

Initially I went ranger archer thinking they're not much behind a fighter archer with FE/FT going (or Instant Enemy), and then they get an AnCo and spells and are more useful with skills. I may not top a fighter archer, but I'll useful in more situations in exchange for some damage.

Now I'm seeing the ZA can out damage both and still has good skills. I'd lose AnCo and spells, but for the damage output it seems like a good trade off. Except I've already put 2 levels into ranger. I'd obviously have to retrain RS (why have RS and Flurry?), but my wisdom is only 14 too.

Do I just have to eat it and go ranger now? I suppose I can even dip into fighter (now I have the ranger skill set) to try to make up some damage. We have a ZA in the group so it's not exactly going to feel good when he's consistently out damaging me and is still useful in social situations. As far as I can tell, AnCo and ranger spells won't be able to make up the difference in damage. What options do I have to stay competitive damage-wise with the ZA and fighter archer?

So as a vanilla ranger my flying dreams aren't viable without feats, and I'm limited to those companions. Is there any way for me to get a lion or other cat with rake that will be equal to my ranger level with boon companion?

The other concern I'm having is that I am a vanilla Ranger. I'm not sure if I can choose some of these AnCo without multiclassing or retraining to Beast Master. Although if I have to take a dip in Druid, I can get way better mounts and animal companions. But if I take a dip, I'll have to keep leveling my druid portion to keep my pet level up unless the pet is on both sets. Are there any other animals like the Mantis that can fly and walk decently? That seems ideal. I can fly when the option is available and still use him in a dungeon with Narrow Frame.

I found this site which seems super helpful, but I'm still having trouble figuring out what animals are available to my ranger. I'm okay to buy books, I just can't find a definite website that says "These are all the AnCo's a vanilla ranger can have, here are the books." Most of the sites talk about a Beast Master ranger and that doesn't help me because I'm just a plain vanilla ranger. The Paizo site lists a small number, but I've read that they've since been expanded but haven't found anything definite around the web so I'm unsure.

If I am limited to that small choice, I suppose the question comes down to wolf, cat, or horse.

Well that's actually doable then without losing feats. The next question is what feat do I give up using Lastoths optimized archer ranger build? I'll have to give something up for either Boon Companion and/or Monstrous Mount. I'm trying to stick to that as it seems awesome. I would think combat reflexes and snapshot would be okay to drop if I am going to be flying, but I figure I'll be grounded a good portion of the time where those will come in handy. Any suggestions?

And I can just any flying mount on the ground in places like dungeons right? I'll just ride them and have them use their ground speed. And if the ceiling is high enough I can take off a little. How far off the ground do I have to be on order to avoid my allies giving enemies soft cover?

Idk man. My Handle animal will be +13, including my +4 bonus for being a ranger, at level 8. The more I see how much I will have to give up for a flying mount, the less reasonable it seems.

If you take the Sable Company Marine archetype from Inner Sea Combat, you can get a hippogriff at 2nd level, but it still won't carry a rider until 6th level and you give up your first two combat style feats. You can still ride it when it's not flying, though, so that'll get you a monstrous mount quicker than just taking the feat.

Unfortunately that is a ranger archetype, and I'm already past level 1, so that is not an option. I wish I had seen it before I made my ranger, but that's alright.

I'm still trying to decide if a flying mount is really worth it. By level 8 I can have +20 in both Ride and Handle Animal, so that is nice, but I would have to take Skill Focus twice to do it and that means less archery feats. I may have to multiclass to Fighter to make this work if I really want to.

If I do multiclass to fighter (for the extra feats), and have Boon Companion, will my mount be 1 level under my total level, or 1 level below my ranger level?

EDIT: Well actually I could retrain. I have enough gold for it. The more I'm looking at it, the more raw damage I'm giving up simply to fly. I'm beginning to think flying isn't that worth it. Going by Lastoth's Archery Guide, you can be a beast by just standing close to combat with all of the AoO's you can take, the +1 to hit from being mounted, and the 15' threat range. Sounds REALLY good. I'd have to give up at least 2 feats from that build in order to have +20 in both Ride and Handle Animal by level 8. If I didn't take that, my Handle Animal would be +9 at level 8 and my Ride would be +14. Not exactly ideal.

Flying would be nice, but it's really going to be limited. I can't fly in a dungeon, so a horse is better there because I don't need any extra feats to ride a horse, flying isn't going to be an option all that much to give up so much damage and opportunities, and I can't use a flying mount in a city without a lot of attention being drawn. Another PC suggested using a magical item to have my character fly, which isn't a bad option if I'm dead set on flying.

So based on what you guys have told me, a flying mount with +15 to flying (I know it doesn't start there, but it won't be difficult to get it up to that point) can hover without the hover feat so I don't need to invest in that, mostly because I don't want the debris debuff because it'll effect other PC. Can I decide if I want to use the debris debuff or is it an all or nothing kind of thing?

I can possibly purchase a flying mount in a city depending on what it is. But, being a vanilla ranger, is it a better option to multiclass to unlock more AnCo/mounts or to pick up Monstrous Mount?

I'm thinking a griffon with Narrow Frame and Monstrous Mount Mastery will actually be pretty useful, and I can just ride it in a dungeon even if I can't fly. Still the benefits of a horse in a dungeon with those feats, and in the open I can fly. If it's in the city, I'll have to ask if they are allowed or not. If not, I suppose I can just have him fly around the outside or something and hope the GM doesn't have the guards attack him or anything. Nothing stopping him I suppose.

I think the earliest I would be able to fly on my mount would be level 7, where a Griffon would be able to pick up the Monstrous Mount Mastery feat and any other flying creature (dire bat, roc) will be size Large now and I can ride them then. A horse, however, I can ride at level 4. So maybe I'll pick up a horse at level 4 and pick up a Griffon at level 8. I'm picking up Boon Companion, so at level 8 my AnCo/Mount will be level 7. I'd lose some archery feats to make it work, but it makes sense I'd have to give a little for flavor and safety.

The flying mount is really more for safety and flavor. A flying ranger is pretty hard to hit when you don't have any ranged attacks, and it just sounds awesome to be riding a griffon/hippogriff/eagle/hawk and raining death upon your enemies.

I didn't even think that it might make some scenarios or modules trivial, so I'll have to talk that over with my GM. I'm already concerned about my ranger being a little too strong because I can kill things before melee even get up to them, which means it is less fun for them. I expressed my concern and the group didn't seem to mind, but I'd imagine after several weeks of this it'd get pretty old.

As for gaining the mount, I saw that a few flying mounts can be purchased, and I just figured Absolam is large enough where there is likely to be an exotic animal seller. Again, something I should likely check with my GM and see how he wants to handle this.

Already I'm seeing that PFS has the option for flying mounts, but it is generally better to not have one for the sake of the game and for the GM's sanity. I don't want to trivialize or break the game, I just like the thought of swooping around on a flying mount while raining death safely from above.

I suppose this means that the horse is probably the best option for the group/game/GM if I am going to be doing mounted archery.

So even a horse will take a penalty in anything less than a 2x2 space. Good to know. So in a dungeon a horse present the same problem as any other AnCo/Mount. Is it considered a full round move to have a flying mount take flight? And would that effect my turn?

So say I make a full attack, then it is my mount turn, and I have them take flight. I'll still have to make skill checks, but it won't effect my turn or my next turn, just the mounts, correct?

As a ranger, I also don't have fly as a class skill. Does this mean that I can't put points into it until I trained in it?

I'm having trouble with a character concept and am looking for veteran advice from players and GMs. As a pure ranger archer, it seems riding a mount in combat can be super beneficial. I can take a full attack on my turn and move on the mounts if needed to avoid penalties, and the penalties of shooting WHILE moving aren't terrible if it needs to be done. A horse is most likely the best option as I am playing a human. It's large right away and can carry me at level 4, and at higher levels can charge and knock people down if they get too close to me (hopefully they don't have a brace weapon), so I like them over most other mounts. They are large in a 1x2 sense, so they can come in a dungeon and not have to squeeze often. Rope ladders or sudden drops would present an issue, but I believe a system of pulleys could be used to lower my horse down or raise him up with another PC help. Plus I can buy it combat trained if my horse dies, which makes it way less of a pain than most other mounts.

However, I really like the thought of a flying mount. Riding a hippogriff or griffon or roc into battle as an archer seems like a really cool concept. I'll have to pour points into Fly, Handle Animal, and Ride, but can it be really viable? In a dungeon, they'll most likely have to take the squeeze debuff. My only thoughts on this is that a hippogriff and griffon are about the same width as a horse with its wings folded in, so if I specify that his wings are folded close to his body and I'm just using him as a mount, will he still take the debuff? Additionally, as I hag already created my character as a standard Ranger, will I have to take a level dip or the Monstrous Mount feat to get this to work?

I planned on taking combat reflexes, snap shot, and improved snapshot so I could sit near the front line and really make use of AoO's. How beer, with a flying mount this will be quite difficult if not impossible. I will have to get the Hover feat to not take a penalty while moving and shooting. The only way I see to make full use of these feats with a flying mount is to use flying when there is no one close enough to provoke an AoO or to hover just five feet off the ground, but the dust from Hover will affect other PC so it may not be viable.

The build seems to have a ton of flavor and is completely unoptimized for an archer. Is there anything I can do to make it like having a winged horse or anything you guys can suggest to make a flying mount seem more feasible? I'd really like one, but there's those issues plus the issues of bringing one into town. Is a flying mount even feasible in PFS or is it a pipe dream?

Narrating this as it was written by the GM in his narrative campaign journal (wrote out an entire 'legend of Kaluthar' for it). From the perspective of the Court Mage

-----

Decades ago, I happened upon Kaluthar the Unbroken (Unbreakable Fighter, Orc FCB) was often considered little more than your typical brutish Orc. He was large, he was buff, he was unruly, and he had absolutely no respect for those who had no power for themselves. Due to crimes in the city of Jarthal (Homebrew campaign), capitol of High Jothgar he was presented with two options. Quest in recompense, or be executed. Thus, the surprisingly cunning orc traveled with the adventuring party the Jarl of High Jothgar had commissioned, bearing the mystical brand of the court wizard.

After various harrowing adventures, the campaign culminated in a war between High Jothgar and the goblinoids of Shirkvane Valley. The Heroes of Jothgar commenced a daring rescue mission of the Prince, whom had been kidnapped in a raid by the goblinoid forces. They succeeded.

Kaluthar was the one who was to carry the prince's weakened body back to High Jothgar. Their pace was not slow, but neither was the enraged, fear-driven army behind them. As his horse began to flag on the narrow mountain road, unable to cope with the heavily armored brute and the portly prince, Kaluthar hopped off, and sent the horse running. The elven ranger, whom had taken the rear guard and always distrusted Kaluthar, queried him, only to get a grunt in reply as the orc unsheathed his blade and slapped the elf's horse on the ass.

Standing at the narrowest point, Kaluthar alone greeted the oncoming hordes. The battle was fierce, many times did the fighting flag as the advancing army had to toss the corpses in front of the massive orc off the road and down the mountain. It was during these lulls that gave Kaluthar the time he needed to drink the previously unnecessary healing potions his allies had insisted he buy, or gave him. Grateful was he of the little vials now, even if he...

Now I'm sad I'm playing a bard. I could never do anything that awesome as a bard.

I have honestly no idea about what happened I only played this guy for like one encounter

And the next thing I know i'm a Wizard

He just told you your PC wandered off never to be seen or heard from again? Like, no rolls, no story, just "yeah he's gone man"?

You have back story. but what is his character like? Is he a morning person, or is he best not spoken to till after coffee? Is he methodical, maybe meticulous in keeping armour and weapons in order? Is he used to servants doing everything and keeps suddenly remembering he needs to do things for himself? Does he care about what he eats and drinks, perhaps fussy, or a connoisseur? Does he like to read and if so, what?

Think about how he might behave during a typical day, in camp and at meals and waiting for things. What he thinks about weather or comforts, how much, if at all, he prefers staying in inns, what he enjoys and what he hates.

Well he's a worshipper of Sarenrae so he's at least not cranky by dawn. I'm going to try to make him laid back about a lot of things, but I do like the idea of being at least a connoisseur of something and being well read. Especially because he came from nobility. Not many nobles don't read, and many of them are particular about their food being top of the line, but I think I'll have him uncaring about food. You could kill a rat in front of him and tell him it's dinner and he'll shrug and eat it. He'll definitely like an inn, but only for short periods of time. Hot food, comfortable beds, good drink, fine company. But he's been on the road so much that he gets antsy to get going. A life of finery isn't for him anymore, but he can still pull it off if he needs to.

These are all really good questions that I hadn't even thought of. I was way less prepared than I thought haha.

Kleptomania is a good flaw. But, a flaw in role play is only actually a flaw if your character also sees it that way... Does that make any sense?

What I mean is, if you (player) and your character are both super-proud of the fact that the character steals everything not nailed down, then it doesn't work as a character flaw.

If on the other hand, he doesn't understand his own motivations, tries to stop and can't, never quite grasping that it's the rush and the fear of being caught, coupled with a desire to hurt the "oh-so-proud nobility" for shunning him... then it's a flaw.

He's not super proud of it, he just usually thinks "Well this might come in handy. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." He's like a giant boyscout gone rogue. Always be prepared. Usually via stealing as much as you can, because why buy it if you don't need to?

I think I am going to go with an uncle being his fatherly figure, who likely had a similar attitude about taking what is needed but had enough money where he never had to steal. My PC, on the other hand, left home without any significant money, so stealing is sometimes "necessary" to my character because he can't simply buy his way into/out of things. I'm happy that there is at least one person in the group who I have a good dynamic with, with him egging me on to steal things and me helping him out when possible, like lying for him when his bluff skills are terrible.

I'll try to do a write up before our next scenario too. Some things are important to mention (to me) such as my character having a flawless red beard that reaches his chest and puts a Dwarfs beard to shame. I think it's important because of his religion, which says halflings born with red hair often see this as a sign from the Gods to join Sarenrae. Now, I'm not a halfling, but I still like that he has a red beard and is a Sarenrae worshipper.

I'm not going to have any contact with my family actually. Not because of any issues that arose, but because I left without really saying anything to many people. I'd probably only let me uncle know and my mother, I was the third child after all so my father probably barely knew I existed. Never the less I'm a male and Kelesh royalty is matriarchal rather than patriarchal, so I'm not even that important to anyone. Maybe I left because I was told I would never make it in the real world without all my wealth.

EDIT:

One caution or rather question your character idea raises is your are pro stealing but against corruption. This has a bit of ideological tension to it establishing how this is a part of your personality would be important. For instance "yeah im a thief but I make no bones about it but what gets me is the hypocracy of so called honest people knowingly buy from goods made by slaves or the bribes expect to do "legitimate" business."

I just justify my stealing with "the ends justify the means." I mean, what if I didn't steal that sword and I ended up getting killed for it rather than killing that vampire? Wouldn't the good that came from saving the number of people the vampire would have killed outweigh the bad for my stealing a single object? You see, it all comes down to a score. As long as you're in the positive, you're alright. At least that will be my PC attitude. Murdering 1 to save 2 is alright. Murdering 1 to save 1 isn't, unless the one I saved was a child or something. I tend to bend rules, which is why I went True Neutral. Gives me a little leeway.

Well I'd definitely say my flaw is stealing and at least one person has picked up on it so far as they egg me on. It's almost already gotten us in trouble, but I rolled a natural 20 on the sleight of hand check and the GM rolled with it and, even though I rolled a 20, the NPC asked for the item back shortly later, which I enjoyed. 9/10 times I'm sure I'll be thinking "you know, I really shouldn't be stealing this. It's pretty risky. I'll probably never need it. Probably. But maybe I will." So I'm okay with that being a flaw, and I tend to want to stick things with the pointy end even when we don't need to but it is acceptable to do so.

I'll probably say I'm the third son of a noble, so no one really cared what I did. I mean, I'm the backups backup. I had wealth and good looks and pretty much free reign to do as I pleased, with little or no guidance from my parents. I'll have to think of someone who at least guided me a little though. Maybe it could be an older brother or an uncle. Maybe I'll be the bastard child of a mistress/concubine of my father. He'd support me but have nothing to do with me, and I'd learn how to "court" people the way she did (let's not get gross here).

Through the research it seems like my home city is a desert dwelling civilization based on those around it or owned by it. I kind of imagined that area for a background anyways, so that's nice. I've got no clue about accents but I suppose I can try them alone in my office and see what doesn't awful.

I think the group will fall into it with the two other guys doing it. We just metagame alot because we're a mixed group of veterans and noobs, so sometimes we need clarification.

So I made a dawnflower of dervish bard. And I have no idea how to RP him. Now, only two people in the group RP really, most of us meta game, but I've heard the game can be much more enjoyable when everyone is in character, so I really want to try.

I find it awkward and strange to be RPing, and I have no idea where to start. I kind of want my character to be noble born and left home because it grew boring. He grew tired of sleeping with maids and lowborn, and most noble women in his city tended to be rather prude and boring, so he left. You can only sleep with so many women before things get awkward all over town anyways.

I'm thinking for the religious part, my grandfather joined and it was how I was raised. We (the family) were born into the belief that we were put here to fight corruption and evil. My character has strayed away from the Lawful alignment however and is straight True Neutral. He will absolutely destroy the evil and the corrupted, providing they don't suddenly yell out "I'd like to convert!" (que sense motive), but he is most definitely a thief, and will circumvent as many rules as he can to get what he wants or feels is right or needs.

For example, if he need that Lords signet ring and the Lord is unwilling to part with it, he will certainly steal it, charm him, or even intimidate him. After all, anything that will help me in my journey to aid the world in ridding itself of evil and corruption will justify my taking of it. He kind of lives by "the ends justify the means" as long as no one gets hurt or killed that didn't deserve it. I'm certainly not out for only myself, as I would steal for a friend as well, but not from a friend.

I eventually aligned myself with the Andor due to not liking any kind of slavery, regardless of race or gender. Even for an indentured servant I would likely buy their freedom if possible.

The background story just doesn't feel fleshed out to me. Like it's just a story rather than a background. And I have him from the Padishah Empire of Kelesh, but have no idea what they look like or sound like or even the climate. It's hard to RP someone when you don't know their accent or geography of their homeland.

Also, sometimes some great RP moments come up but have little to no effect on the general gameplay, which is frustrating but understandable. For example, in one scenario I pried gems out of a jeweled key meant for an Osirian tomb. We all had a laugh that that was my first reaction ("the key is jeweled and shaped like a scepter" "I'd like to pry the gems out") but then they were sold for next to nothing to keep balance (I'm assuming). Other than for RP reasons, is there any reason to roll constant sleight of hand checks and steal many things when, at the end of the game, I won't be able to keep it? I see a lot of topics about "that guy" in a group who is super annoying and I really don't want to be him by stealing everything or ruining the GMs story or ruin the game for anyone else. The GM is phenomenal so far but I don't want to test my limits too much per se.

Any advice is appreciated. I really want to give RPing a go but I guess I don't feel connected with my characters background even though I like it.

Well, you could go Chelish Diva (learned from Deadmanwalking) and get full plate and cast without penalty. Not sure if it would affect your speed or jump though.

Paladins can wear full plate and cast too, though their spells are more limited.

I would say more important if you are going to be doing buffs. You want to buff everyone ASAP so they can make the most of it.

From what I heard, archer bards are pretty good. But unless you go elf, you'll need weapon proficiency for the longbow or use the shortbow. I have heard the shortbow isn't terrible but also not the best, but taking a feat to use a longbow isn't ideal either. And Elf isn't an amazing choice unless you do go archery, then it's probably the most efficient. Archery builds are very feat intensive, so human isn't a bad choice either. I've also heard the crossbow is weak.

You can get a net if you want. I hear really good things about nets, but idk how they do at the higher levels because they have a str 25 DC, at which point they can break the net. But in the mean time you'd have to pick up EWP: Net. It's pretty good for a controller type bard.

Wouldn't recommend Dazzling Display, as spells at the higher levels do a better job and it takes a move action which hurts the higher you go.

The thread I linked earlier is like 2.5 pages long and offers a lot of peoples views and opinions. I started out wanting you do what you want to do, then moved to a archer bard who buffs, and now I'm a Dawnflower of Dervish bard who mostly buffs himself and can still be a skillmonkey and party face. And with high dex and moderate con I can actually melee without being terrified of dying at level 1.

EDIT: Don't forget you can get a masterwork backpack. Every little bit helps. Or a packmule if your GM allows it.

Don't forget that if you go melee, you still need str to add +hit to your rolls. The way around that is the Dervish Dance feat, but then you can only use a scimitar for the bonus. It won't apply to any other weapon. Dervish Dance also counts as Weapon Finesse for the scimitar, so your dex gets added to +hit and +dmg. However, having said that, being a melee bard is a dangerous game. You're 3/4 BAB, your health is unlikely to be optimal, and you wear light armor.

Bards can be pretty good at two things but never the best at two things. The thing they are REALLY good at is buffing. But you can't only buff, you'll run out of buffs. And you can't only cast because you'll run out of spells and your damage will pale next to a full caster, just like your melee will pale next to a full melee.

I personally built my character to be pretty good at melee and am using his spells to debuff enemies and his spells/performances to buff teammates (the few that I have that will still buff teammates). I plan to pick up mostly utility spells to be useful.

My stats are 7 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 7 wis, and 18 cha. I went human and chose Dual Talent rather than the extra feat and bonus skill point. With Imp. Init. and Reactionary, my init is +10 at level one.

If you aren't concerned with having all the vanilla bard spells (Bardic Knowledge, Lore Master, Versatile Performance, etc.) take a look at some of the archetypes and see if anything sticks out to you.

The people here are really helpful. Don't be afraid to ask for help or bump a topic.

Arnwolf wrote:

RMcD wrote:

Daenar wrote:

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Charm Person does not work like that. It will not make creatures attack their allies, they will only take everything you say in the most favorable way. Shame people forget that.

"The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.)"

From the Charm Person description.

Okay, so Will Save against a normal Wizard

d20+3 for the Ogre, DC of 10+1(spell level)+4(18 INT) = 15

At first level, sure, the Ogre could certainly pass it. Depending on how many times the wizard remembers the spell he can try again if it passes it's save (right? I'm pretty sure you can do that).

If you're currently threatening and or attacking (and really you want to cast this spell before combat, specially if you wizard acts all snivelly and willing to pay gold), it gets a plus 5 to it's save.

d20+8 to hit 15. A lot easier for the ogre. (Remember Ogre is CR 3 but we're assuming that the wizard only has 18 Int, and is first level without any buffs or items).

If the Ogre rolls lower than a 7, boom encounter practically over.

Whether or not you've made him fight alongside you, he's certainly not fighting in the fight anymore (since you and your allies are his freinds.

For winning a Charisma check (which you only get one of for each order (make up a different order)) it rolls d20-1, and you roll whatever modifier your Wizard has.

The fact that a solo level wizard going up against a CR 3 at level 1 has a ~30% (or 55% if not threatening) chance of shutting the encounter down with one spell, not even just shutting the encounter down, but now using that encounter to potentially fight other encounters.

EDIT: This is also the worst use of the spell possible, instead...

There's also the debate that the person will become suspicious after the charm wears off. Obviously an ogre is too dull to realize this and just thinks he made a new friend, but more intelligent creatures may become suspicious. I've been advised not to use this in any town we plan on revisiting for this exact reason.

I was planning on a character just like this and apparently it will be a difficult road. The main issue is that enemies CMD gets pretty high the further you level, nonhumanoid especially. If you're following Treantmonks Controller Bard build, I'd stop. Even he posted on the thread saying it was not a good build in practice.

Know that you can't be a full caster or full melee either. If you focus on one too much you'll do terrible. Take Imp. Init at level, then you can buff the group right at the start if need be. I'd read into this thread when you get the time: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r2tm?Has-anyone-tried-Treantmonks-control-bard

Edit: how far will your campaign go? And if you get this build to work I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it.

I thought about picking up enforcer and using my offhand to strike. Doesn't count as a weapon if I don't take Improved Unarmed Strike, so I keep my Dervish Dance feat active and it's still considered one handed melee I think. Then on successful hits I can intimidate.

The traits might be beneficial. Right now I picked up Reactionary (yay for +10 init at level 1) and adopted, picked the gnome Animal Friend and bought a raccoon for the +1 to will. I should probably pick up two more save traits if possible. Those are always good to have.

Mmmmmm longstrider. Can't wait for that wand to pop up. Is there like a set table for loot like that or should I drop hints that I want something like that to my GM?

And I do wanna take Arcane Strike. I think I'm going to take it at level 5, when it becomes +2. I'm still trying to figure out if I should focus on mobility so I can move in and out with a lot of +AC, or spell focus, or what.

Is there a feat(s) that allow me to move back, cast a debuff, move in and attack? I know I can normally do half of those moves, but I'm curious if I can do that all in one turn with the right set up.

I also know I am going to ignore the Quicken Spell feat. At level 12 I only have access to level 4 caster spells, and Quicken would allow me to make a cast a swift action, but it would be a cantrip I think. It has to be 4 levels lower than my max spell caster level, and it takes up a slot 4 levels higher. A level 1 quicken spell seems like it would take up a level 5 slot, and seeing as how I don't get one of those, and I don't want an swift cantrip, it's useless to me.

Why in any non-PFS game? Is it not allowed?

Looking around at some teamwork feats, you can really deprive some enemies of bonuses as long as both people get the feat. Sucks you can't use it without them having it or you could really debuff enemies without even having to use spells.

My cha is 18 starting out. I'm still trying to figure out how I can effectively use spells and melee in a really complimentary fashion. I wish I could back out of threat range without provoking an AoO, but the only way I've seen it done is with a tumble DC. I'd like to be able to back out, cast, and then attack while they're under whatever effect I chose. I know it'll take more than a round, but it would be nice. What sucks is eventually my tumble check will fail and it will not be good in light armor with no dex bonus.

As for retraining, I'm not sure what that is. I just know he said we get one chance to redesign our character after we play the first scenario. After that we're stuck with them.

Edit: apparently I can use acrobatics to move without provoking. I can only move at half speed then. 15 feet is plenty to move back and get a cast off though. Hopefully it's after the enemies turn so he can't pursue me.

Well I wanna be that bard that can do a bit of everything, that's why I went with bard. I'm going to try to keep several wands of different kinds for any situation. I'll be like a woman with a large purse, always has something of use. If I see that I'll be more effective doing something other than melee, I'll do that. I don't mind. I'm sure there will be moments when I can melee though and that'll be fun.

Our GM said at the end of our first scenario we can change our character once (idk if that's PFS rules or his) so if I see that I'm terrible I'll change it. But I think I'll be okay.

Two questions though. What is a spell with a raider effect and what weapons should I have as backup? Any other weapon and I'll have to pick up weapon finesse and likely WP. I can't use a whip, the scimitar replaced the proficiency I had. I can have a few bolas, but I think I need training for that too. I carry a few flasks of oil, some caltrops, and some marbles for utility. I can probably pick up some alchemical fires and things too.

I may only be in combat for a round or two if I find I'm more beneficial that way. I just know I can't be a full caster and I prefer melee over ranged. Ranged was really feat intensive. Plus with this build I have some survivability if the GM separates us.

No I just wanna use intimidate every once in a while for comical use like that. Diplomacy is better like 99% of the time apparently. Plus I think I'll eventually pick up Charm Person. There's a lot of spells posted earlie though that are likely better. Dawnflower of Dervish replaces Dirge of Doom anyways. I'm pretty set on the build Deadmanwalking came up with. He really hit all the points I wanted and in the order of importance.

Edit: I'm looking at the wording for Meditative Whirl, and can I only use healing spells with it? "By spending a move action focusing on his whirling, the dervish can apply the Quicken Spell feat to any cure spell he is about to cast..."

The party may not be the happiest but I can still buff them enough. I do lose Bardic a Master and Lore Master though. It hurts, but I'm okay with the sacrifice. Almost went Musetouched Aasimar, but that's too much for me. It was definitely nice, but a little too far out for a first timer. Plus they can't intimidate. I'm really hoping and waiting for the opportunity to use prestigidition or Mage hand and intimidate someone by lifting their sack up the slightest bit (from a few feet away, magically ofc) and then asking "what do you think will happen if I close my fist?" I'm hoping for an intimidation bonus for something like that.

I went with the Dervish mostly to never use strength. Plus I want to be great at melee and use my spells as kind of utility spells. I'll likely cast right in the beginning and then that's it. Possibly cast again in some circumstances, but for the most part melee. And the double buffs on myself are just awesome. Plus, I can still buff the party somewhat. As good as most other buffers who aren't bards. Now I'm just great at melee too. Plus it fits the style I wanna play. I know being optimal is the best idea, but I really like the style of this character. I can be deadly in combat, still cast, still buff the party decently, buff myself awesomely, be a decent skill monkey, and totally be the face of the party.

I lose being a great buffer and some other things, but this is the EXACT style of character I want. Deadmanwalking just took all the information in and came up with two awesome builds, I just like this one rather than a full plate buffer bard. Not a bad option, just not the style I like.

I've been told we are not allowed anything evil. Nothing. The only issue is that I have a hard time understanding what "evil" is in pathfinder. To, the ends justify the means. If I was given the option to kill an entire village in order to save more people than were killed, I'd say that's not evil. It's pretty close to neutral. You killed 50 people but did it to save 51. That's +1 in your favor. PFS does not see things this way. There is no balance. I've just got to watch my actions and think about them. The GM said we won't have any issues unless we decide to burn down an orphanage or a monastery, and he'd tell us (or not allow) if our action would change our alignment or if we're starting to shift. I think I'll be alright. I just don't want to that guy that's a PITA about things because he wants to always steal or charm the vendor for extreme discounts. Gotta be conservative. Strike a balance of sorts.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write such a long post like that though. This is only my first character in PFS, combats usually a little easier to learn than casting for a first character, IMO. But I have had some caster envy already when I see some spells. I suspect my next character will be a full caster. I wanna Feeble Mind everyone.

I always have trouble with alignment. Reading up on the two, it's going to be a difficult road. CN characters act on a whim, which I've always kind of done. I usually play the character who says "I like that necklace, I think I'll steal it." I'll just try to balance CN and CG for a decent mix, which will hopefully keep me in the neutral zone. Some things will be on a whim, others will be because I don't like the evil associated with it like slavery. I'll try to just act like I do in real life mixed with Locke Lamora or something.

Well that's fine. I can always be kind of a renegade. Worship her but dispose of evil my own way. I'll be half of Robin Hood :) I'll steal from the rich and help the poor by cleansing evil and corruption. I'll ask my DM if I need to be part of the church, that way I can go True Neutral and kinda mind my business. Honestly though, being Chaotic Neutral can have its benefits. Getting into other peoples business usually leads to conflict. And I can still do my own thing like a PFS Robin Hood. Kinda ride the line between CN and TN.

I will definitely take as many of those spells as I can.

Deadman, how can I be fallen without losing the class? Do I just keep worshipping her without being a part of the church or anything? Or is the "if the PC stops worshipping they become a standard bard" just a way out in case you don't want to be a Dervish Dancer?

With that party, I really wouldn't take an archetype that loses the typical Inspire Courage. No offense, but no matter how good you are personally, it's not going to compete with spreading those bonuses over a party with three other martial characters.

Probably not. The party would definitely be better overall with a typical bard, but I think I would find it less fun. I'm now excited to try this new build deadmanwalking came up with. It seems really fun and a little different than typical builds. It allows me the versatility I really want. I can be great in combat and still have useful spells (even if rarely cast in the midst of combat), and my cha is high enough where I can still be the face of the party, and I can still buff the party in general. I may not be the best buffer, but certainly any buff is better than none.

The build may not be the most optimal for the group, but I feel its the most optimal for me and how I want to play. They've already told me it's unlikely I'll be playing with the same group. Next week I'm playing with a cleric, a monk, a fighter, and one unknown.

I supplemented my controller bard with a few levels of Lore Warden, and also got the Net Adept and Net Maneuvers feats. That allowed me some of the versatility usually associated with a whip (Disarm and Trip, for instance) while letting me maintain reach and still utilize dazzling display and entangle. It was enjoyable, but we stopped at level 6 so I'm not able to speak about how effective it was going forward.

I've heard that Dazzling Display really dies off the higher you go because it is a standard action. I'm not sure around which level it does, but because bards can't retrain feats I don't want to take it. No sense in picking something up that I'll regret later. I'd rather have the early levels harder than the later ones.