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Beacuse that's the flavor of the setting it was made for. No mechanical reason.
Because it was a feat to allow worshippers of Sarenrae, whose favored weapon is the scimitar, to use the Dexterity to damage. It wasn't meant to be for any finessable weapon, and the author of the feat thought that'd be too good anyhow.
You can find a feat that's for like that but for any finessable weapon in Mythic Adventures, called Weapon Finesse (Mythic).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat
Based on the prerequisites, I don't see why any weapon that could be "finessed" can't be used with it. I have a player in the Jade Regent AP that wants to use it. I'm inclined to let him, but I'm curious why it was restricted to scimitars only before I do, in case I'm missing a legitimate reason why it should be restricted.
Well, the game probably won't explode if you let him use the same effect with say, a cutlass. Free hand fighting tends to be subpar anyway.
Was restricted because flavor.
You can find a feat that's for like that but for any finessable weapon in Mythic Adventures, called Weapon Finesse (Mythic).
Mythic weapon finesse works when you have a weapon or shield or use the weapon two handed. Slightly different.
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Because without strange restrictions/prerequisites you wouldn't know if you were playing DnD.
Because without strange restrictions/prerequisites you wouldn't know if you were playing DnD.
The day they started letting lawful bards in it just wasn't the same. Not the same!
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You can find a feat that's for like that but for any finessable weapon in Mythic Adventures, called Weapon Finesse (Mythic).
It started out applying to any weapon, but the crowd already complaining about Dervish Dance got it changed to just finesse weapons.
I died a little bit on the inside when they changed it. I thought my kensai would finally be able to use a katana.
We had a dervish dancer in a 3.5-pathfinder
hybrid game who was allowed to use a whip chain, or urime(sp). One in each hand, with reach. Based on what happened, I suggest that if you allow it, give the other players in the group a chance to "massage" a rule they want to change.
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I still can't figure out why they changed it. It's a mythic feat! It's supposed to be a little crazy and it really wasn't anyways.You can find a feat that's for like that but for any finessable weapon in Mythic Adventures, called Weapon Finesse (Mythic).It started out applying to any weapon, but the crowd already complaining about Dervish Dance got it changed to just finesse weapons.
I died a little bit on the inside when they changed it. I thought my kensai would finally be able to use a katana.
Because its for martials. [/conspiracytheory]
because str does dmg and encumbrence. dex already does defense, initiative, contributes to a butload of skills, and ranged to hit.
I'm assuming it's also based off the dervish dance style of the middle-east. Combine the area from which the dance originated and tag in the scimitar, which is the most recognizable weapon of the middle-east. And you have the Dervish Dance feat...
because str does dmg and encumbrence. dex already does defense, initiative, contributes to a butload of skills, and ranged to hit.
And going Dex costs 2 feats and lowers your damage. It does improve your defenses and make you less MAD, but that's a good tradeoff for what you give up.
Everyone hasn't switched their Falchion Barbarian to Urban Barbarian with Agile Elven Curve Blade, and even for the Magus (whose class features steer you toward Scimitar + Free Hand anyways) it's not the clear-cut best choice.
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because str does dmg and encumbrence. dex already does defense, initiative, contributes to a butload of skills, and ranged to hit.
Which makes Mythic Weapon Finesse better than Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Vital Strike how?
You're burning a Mythic feat to shift your character from a scimitar or agile elven curve blade to something else. The change in damage or build is minimal.
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would you pay two feats to do comparable damage, add a massive amount to initiative while bumping your ac at the same time? if it's a no brainer then it's broken
would you pay two feats to do comparable damage, add a massive amount to initiative while bumping your ac at the same time? if it's a no brainer then it's broken
The damage is not comparable, it's much less. You aren't getting 1.5x Strength to damage, and not getting 3:1 payoff for Power Attack. As a martial character, damage is your raison d'être.
The AC isn't any higher either, since Armor AC & Max Dex are designed specifically to make High Dex + Light Armor similar or identical to Low Dex + Heavy Armor. Dex has better Touch AC, Heavy Armor has better Flat Footed AC.
The improvement to Initiative is there, but again, is it worth spending feats and lowering your damage for it? Hell, in most encounters I've played in, the martials who win initiative still delay until after the casters.
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Beacuse that's the flavor of the setting it was made for. No mechanical reason.
This.
Which is another way of saying 'it shouldn't be so restricted'.
I dunno. "Separate but equal" was a terrible philosophy for segregation, but it strikes me as a fine philosophy for weapons. Experience shows that if you open a feat to any weapon, it'll end up being used with the most effective weapon possible.
Actually, that's why the best way to handle things is to allow reflavoring and build your own weapons imo. People will gravitate to what they want and is the most effective at doing it, without worrying about the fact axes won't ever be used.
because str does dmg and encumbrence. dex already does defense, initiative, contributes to a butload of skills, and ranged to hit.
SO, to compensate that lets allow dex to damage witht he best 1-handed martial weapon?, that does not sound balanced.
I dunno. "Separate but equal" was a terrible philosophy for segregation, but it strikes me as a fine philosophy for weapons. Experience shows that if you open a feat to any weapon, it'll end up being used with the most effective weapon possible. (I can't remember the last time I saw somebody take Improved Critical (siangham).)
I'm fine with Dervish Dance staying weapon-specific. Heck, throw in a few more weapon-specific feats! Picks and glaives need more love!
That is because siangham and other core monk weapons are not worth it. Kama is just fancy name for the sickle.
Presuming you did expand the feat, applying it to "other finesseable weapons" is not the correct path to go because the Scimitar isn't a finesseable weapon to begin with. DD lets you apply Dex to attack and damage despite the Scimitar being a one-handed, non-finesse weapon. Ergo, if you were to expand the feat, you would apply it to one-handed slashing non-finesse weapons (ie. Longsword).
Oddly enough that would be weaker though wouldn't it? I mean to use dervish dance after picking up weapon finesse to get dex to damage with a long sword. Provided you made those investments your probably doing more damage with your scimitar than your long sword anyway. The scimitar will actually do more damage than the longsword in the long run because crit range too.
Then again that's probably why it wouldn't be bad...
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I'd allow other weapons, but it wouldn't be Finessable ones. It would be other Deity's Favored Weapons (for followers of that Deity) that make ense, like ZK and Spiked Chains, or Milani with Mourning Stars.
Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.
Kama is just a fancy name for the sickle.That one always bugged me. Given that they're statistically identical, functionally identical, and 3.0 was created during a "simplify the weapon list" phase, why didn't they just allow monks to use sickles with their flurry/etc. and save themselves a line of space!?
But there I go, off on a tangent rant...
Incidentally, "Tangent Rant" would be a good name for an album!
Probably because a lot of people wouldn't realize that a kama is functionally identical to a sickle and would post threads about it breaking theme.
As for the main topic, the scimitar is already the best finesse weapon other than the Elven Curved Blade which you couldn't use with a generalized DD anyways. Dervish Dance has proven that Improved Weapon Finesse would not be broken.
Creative Director
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I had hoped that Dervish Dance would open up a new line of feats that linked world flavor to cool options, but alas... it's taken a long time for that to propagate.
But the idea is that worshipers of Sarenrae have always been intended to be finesse fighters, and the fact that her chosen weapon wasn't one that could be Weapon Finessed vexed me.
To a certain extent, if this means that there's a lot of scimitar-wielding Sarenrae worshipers out there, I'm actually quite okay with that! :-)
Well, it actually means that there are a lot of scimitar-wielding warriors that don't care about Sarenrae at all. Including those working in homebrew universes in which Sarenrae does not exist.
I agree that the scimitar should have been a finesse weapon in the first place, then again I also think the cutlass should have been a finesse weapon.
And there you have it folks
Because Rogues are not proficient with Scimitars, and giving them Dex-based damage would be giving something nice to Rogues. LOL.
I kid, of course... It's just a flavor-based restriction, since the feat is intended for followers of Sarenrae.
I don't see why it couldn't be expanded to "All finesse-able weapons + 1 one-handed weapon of your choice". That would still allow Dex-based followers of Sarenrae while allowing for more character variety.
...Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.I'm very curious to see this spellcaster who derives his or her touch AC, CMD, initiative, ranged attack values and Reflex saves from a primary spellcasting stat!
Best I know of are some oracles that affect AC with it... and for that alone, they're giving up much sexier abilities.
A Lunar Oracle with Scion of War and 2 levels of Paladin gets all of that except ranged attack values, and frankly you're a spell caster that's not as important.
It definitely requires some investment. Y'know, kinda like how it requires some investment to be a finesse fighter.
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Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.
Wizards and Witches, yes. Magus' are up there, too, but how many NON-Dervish Dance Magus' does anyone really see? Not really so much most of the others, who still kind of need to be somewhat diverse.
Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.Wizards and Witches, yes. Magus' are up there, too, but how many NON-Dervish Dance Magus' does anyone really see? Not really so much most of the others, who still kind of need to be somewhat diverse.
I'm actually playing a strength Magus with a Rhoka right now. It works just fine, I'm two feats ahead of a Dervish Magus and I'm fighting with a Rhoka.
@Lincoln: I wish I could say I did. I think about the Lunar mystery and how to use it to make charisma better a lot.
Wizards and Witches, yes. Magus' are up there, too, but how many NON-Dervish Dance Magus' does anyone really see? Not really so much most of the others, who still kind of need to be somewhat diverse.Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.
That's sort of a problem with the magus himself though, is that he has to use a free hand style of fighting. He's very pigeonholed to it. So his major choices are going to be those that most benefit a free hand fighter, such as pre-errata crane wing or dervish dance. Not that he doesn't have other choices, but those are prime examples.
A Lunar Oracle with Scion of War and 2 levels of Paladin gets all of that except ranged attack values, and frankly you're a spell caster that's not as important....Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.I'm very curious to see this spellcaster who derives his or her touch AC, CMD, initiative, ranged attack values and Reflex saves from a primary spellcasting stat!
Best I know of are some oracles that affect AC with it... and for that alone, they're giving up much sexier abilities.
Once per day you will when you smite, among other goodies! At higher levels you might consider casting bestow grace of the champion yourself instead of actually take levels in paladin.
I had a Str-based Tiefling Hexcrafter Magus that I really liked! Power Attack And 2-handed damage when moving or using Spellstrike rocks! :)
Easiest thing to do would be to make a partner-feat to Weapon Finesse, possibly 'Greater Weapon Finesse' that allows one to use Dex for damage as well as attack rolls.
In our home game, any 'finessable' weapon (most light weapons, whips, rapiers) automatically uses Dex for attack and damage, as do projectile weapons like bows. The weapon has the 'Finesse' quality and avoids the feat tax altogether.
Wizards and Witches, yes. Magus' are up there, too, but how many NON-Dervish Dance Magus' does anyone really see? Not really so much most of the others, who still kind of need to be somewhat diverse.Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.Is it equally broken that spellcasters get everything they need from a single stat? Honestly curious.
I see plenty of Strength Magi, in fact I rarely see a Dervish Dance Magus that isn't also a Kensai.
I'd allow other weapons, but it wouldn't be Finessable ones. It would be other Deity's Favored Weapons (for followers of that Deity) that make ense, like ZK and Spiked Chains, or Milani with Mourning Stars.
Allowing Dex to Damage for all highly Dex based classes is just stupid. Period. Yes, it's broken. There is just too much built into Dex.
Pfft. Still doesn't compare to a full caster.
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This doesn't even need to be a "why do only casters get nice things" thread.
The scimitar is the best one-handed finesse weapon.
If Improved Weapon Finesse with a scimitar is not game breaking, nothing else will be. The absolute best/worst case scenario depending on which side of the aisle you're on would be if the new feat worked with TWF Kukris, which is even more feat intensive. You're paying big time for the ability to do something different, why does it have to be inferior to the standard option?
I'd allow other weapons, but it wouldn't be Finessable ones. It would be other Deity's Favored Weapons (for followers of that Deity) that make ense, like ZK and Spiked Chains, or Milani with Mourning Stars.
Favored Weapon by deity is a terrible mechanic. Archer Clerics are penalized a feat if they don't worship Erastil, for example. Most deities might as well not have the mechanic, because theirs is a simple weapon, in which all their followers were proficient to begin with.