Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I recently came across the item Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers in Inner Sea Gods. It permanently changes the size of a weapon. It's that permanency that is questionable in PFS.
I took the more cautious route as I played through EotT, and bought a new one each session, but wanted an actual ruling if I use it in the future.
It's not a spell, so the "no permanent spells" bit doesn't help.
One could argue that it's an item "created by a magic item" from the FAQ... sort of.
Yes.
So, how does this interact with the temporary nature of things in PFS?
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I see no problem with it, because as written, the Silvers are not really exploitable, as they always move the item closer to your size, and as such is useless to most characters.
Out of curiosity, what were you using the silvers for? If you are a medium creature using them to attempt to turn an item into large, it won't work.
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Also note that it says that it moves the size of the object towards the size of the creature that applied them. It does not specify if you use the size of the creature when it applied them or the size of the creature while it sits in the forge overnight. I am not saying that's how I would rule it, but I could certainly see it being interperated that way unless you can extend your enlarge person to last all night.
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what's the point, as you can already purchase Small, Medium and Large weapons.You can't purchase Firearms that are large-sized, and since thistledown's Gunslinger just played through Eyes, I'm betting that's what he's wondering about.
But one cannot buy large firearm ammunition either, so what use would a large gun be?
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But one cannot buy large firearm ammunition either, so what use would a large gun be?what's the point, as you can already purchase Small, Medium and Large weapons.You can't purchase Firearms that are large-sized, and since thistledown's Gunslinger just played through Eyes, I'm betting that's what he's wondering about.
You can purchase large-sized ammunition. The restriction called out in Additional Resources only limits the actual Firearm itself to Medium- or Small-sized.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Correct. You can't buy large guns, doesn't say you can't have them. And there's no restrictions at all on ammo. It was very nice going through with a 3d6 musket instead of a 1d12. Even if I did have to buy an entire new set of ammo first.
Though now that it's been brought up, I expect the ban-hammer is inbound.
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Aside: why is it often gunslingers trying to find ways to beat the system and gain access to even more damage-dealing potential? Many folks chafe enough at having them in the game at all... This is not meant to be inflammatory (although I am sure people will take it that way), but I wonder what it is about the class that doesn't work well enough that many feel the need to improve upon it?
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Correct. You can't buy large guns, doesn't say you can't have them. And there's no restrictions at all on ammo. It was very nice going through with a 3d6 musket instead of a 1d12. Even if I did have to buy an entire new set of ammo first.
Though now that it's been brought up, I expect the ban-hammer is inbound.
You may want to check the FAQ:Here
Inappropriately Sized Firearms: Does this rule (page 136) allow a Medium or smaller creature to use larger firearms of any size?
The text of the rule is, "The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it." The intent of that rule was to prevent a Medium character from using a Small rifle as a one-handed pistol; it wasn’t intended to let a Medium character use a Large, Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal two-handed firearm as a two-handed weapon. Just like with non-firearms, a creature cannot wield a weapon that’s far too big or small for it. Specifically in the case of firearms, a Medium character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Large or larger creature, and a Small character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Medium or larger creature.
Bolding is mine.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Well, that's an awkward FAQ. So, large muskets are out from that, but large pistols are still fine.
I think the reason gunslingers look for more damage is because archers have so many ways to add damage just thrown at them. If the stuff that was bows only worked on guns, we'd stop trying so hard.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Good point. Still, I'd like to keep this thread on wether the slivers persist thru scenarios, and debate the merits of big guns elsewhere.
I was also thinking they might be useful for unique weapons on chronicles, like Gamin or the Starsword. I think you can buy things on a chronicle in any size you like, but I'm not sure and it really doesn't make sence in some cases.
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Close, the rule isGood point. Still, I'd like to keep this thread on wether the slivers persist thru scenarios, and debate the merits of big guns elsewhere.
I was also thinking they might be useful for unique weapons on chronicles, like Gamin or the Starsword. I think you can buy things on a chronicle in any size you like, but I'm not sure and it really doesn't make sence in some cases.
PCs can always buy weapons and equipment off their Chronicle sheets and the approved equipment lists for their size so long as their size is Small or Medium. Thus, if a Chronicle sheet offers a Small PC the opportunity to purchase a +1 frost longsword, she can always buy the 1 frost longsword at size Small. Items found while playing the scenario, however, are the size they are when they’re found. The size can only be adjusted up or down after the scenario is over, while the PCs are buying new gear. PCs purchasing equipment at sizes other than Small and Medium must adjust the prices per the existing weapon size rules (Core Rulebook 144).
So if you are size medium, you can purchase a medium Gamin, but not a large one, even though you may have a Large Eidolon, and you cannot buy a small one even though you may have a Small Eidolon. So the silvers still have a use for a summoner who has a Large or Small Eidolon. Now, if there is a summoner out there with a Huge Eidolon, they are screwed unless they can use the silvers permanently since the largest weapon they could purchase would be a Large weapon.
Now the fun part would be that a summoner could build their Eidolon to use a gun, imagine a Huge Eidolon with a Huge Musket (of course you cannot buy huge ammo, as no price exists) that deals 4d6 damage.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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New reason to look at these Slivers - the new Titan Fighter archetype for Fighter allows you to use Large two-handed weapons (in two-hands) with a one level dip. I can see a lot of people dipping or retraining to take advantage of this, with existing characters. Who already have their magic adamantine whatevers that they like. So the slivers (which sound like yes, they're permanent, even in organized play) let the person just pay a bit to upgrade the weapon to take advantage of the archetype, rather than having to replace the entire weapon.
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If you get an enlarge person on you, then apply the slivers, the weapon goes to large. They only care about the size when they were applied. Heck, you could even hire something (or summon) that's naturally large to apply them.
Your sword enlarges with you when you cast Enlarge Person on yourself already.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I was referring to purchasing Spellcasting Services in town for the enlarge person. Not so useful for combat. The slivers make it a permanent change. Then when you get to your fight, sure enlarge to make it even bigger.
If you're referring to enlarge person not working for putting the thing in the oven, you may be right. I'm not sure if picking up the item after you've enlarged will change it up (only stuff you're carrying when the spell is cast is affected?). If picking it up makes it large, you're back to hiring someone large to put it in the oven for you.
Or buy a mule, and rig up some apparatus so the slivers fall from its saddlebags as it walks over the sword.
Venture-Agent, Washington—Bothell
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A bit of thread necromancy but I have a question relating to the slivers. Getting large mithril chain shirt barding for my large cat animal companion is pretty expensive (4400 gp) but what I want to do is get some medium sized mithril barding for 2200 gp, use it until level 7, then hit it with the slivers. How would I go about this? My plan is to pay for an enlarge person spell then use the slivers myself but I'm not sure if being magically and temporarily enlarged would work. If that doesn't work then I would try to get my cat to apply the slivers somehow (Int of 3).
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Getting large mithril chain shirt barding for my large cat animal companion is pretty expensive (4400 gp)It's only 1400gp, actually.
100gp for Chain Shirt
x4 for Large-sized Non-humanoid Barding
+1000gp for Mithral Light Armor
actually, the mithral would be quadrupled as well.
EDIT: You build the base set, without magic, and then quadruple it.
Getting large mithril chain shirt barding for my large cat animal companion is pretty expensive (4400 gp)It's only 1400gp, actually.
100gp for Chain Shirt
x4 for Large-sized Non-humanoid Barding
+1000gp for Mithral Light Armoractually, the mithral would be quadrupled as well.
EDIT: You build the base set, without magic, and then quadruple it.
At the risk of looking foolish contradicting a VC, I'm going to say I believe you may be mistaken on this one. I agree with Nefreet that the cost should be 1400 and I'll explain why.
The rules for pricing Barding say
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and non-humanoid creatures (such as horses) have different prices and weights from those given in the Armor and Shields table. Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to price and weight for the armor type in question.
(bolding mine)
This says to apply the multipliers to the armor type, not the finished armor. If you look at the table it references, it is just the base price of the item type, not including special materials or masterwork costs. I.E. a breastplate is 200gp, a scalemail is 50gp. You take the values from that table, apply the multiply them as appropriate, than add whatever costs you may need for special materials, masterwork, enchantments and so on.
At least, that is my understanding of this scenario. I found another thread on these forums talking about this issue if we don't want to derail this thread, I just wanted to point out what I found.
Link
Although, on further inspection, what prompted this answer isn't legal anyways. Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers can only be used on weapons, you cannot use them on barding or armor.
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Venture-Agent, Washington—Bothell
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Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers can only be used on weapons, you cannot use them on barding or armor.
Darn, should have read the item more closely. It seems somewhat arbitrary that it works on metals weapons but not metal armors, Gorum doesn't seem to care so long as it is metal and made for war. That's how its written though so I'll just use some plain steel barding then. Thanks for the help!
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Getting large mithril chain shirt barding for my large cat animal companion is pretty expensive (4400 gp)It's only 1400gp, actually.
100gp for Chain Shirt
x4 for Large-sized Non-humanoid Barding
+1000gp for Mithral Light Armoractually, the mithral would be quadrupled as well.
EDIT: You build the base set, without magic, and then quadruple it.
This is not correct, though ppl often get it wrong.
You build the armor, with multipliers for size/shape, and then apply modifiers for special materials.
Please, trust me. This is the third time it's come up just this week.
It's also covered in Flutter's Animal Companion thread.
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Saying I'm wrong and you are right, just because you discuss it a lot, does not make it so. Please cite your source.
How about the CRB?
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
That is the cost to make light, medium, or heavy armor out of mithril.
If it is a light armor, the mithril cost is +1,000 gp.
Doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt, or chain barding, or a chain shirt for that colossal giant, it only costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril. It also doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt made for a tiny sprite or imp, it still costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril.
Or do you also think the 150 gp cost for making armor masterwork should scale by size, as well?
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Saying I'm wrong and you are right, just because you discuss it a lot, does not make it so. Please cite your source.How about the CRB?
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gpThat is the cost to make light, medium, or heavy armor out of mithril.
If it is a light armor, the mithril cost is +1,000 gp.
Doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt, or chain barding, or a chain shirt for that colossal giant, it only costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril. It also doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt made for a tiny sprite or imp, it still costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril.Or do you also think the 150 gp cost for making armor masterwork should scale by size, as well?
I think the point is that it requires a lot more mithral to make a set of armor for a big creature than it does for a medium creature. It takes no more material to make a set masterwork, but perhaps more craftsmanship.
I think it is unfortunate that they decided to simplify the chart for armor rather than charging by the pound as they do for other items, which leads directly to this debate.
The weight of a set of armor for a large quadruped is double that for a medium humanoid, and the cost is four times as much. So, how are we supposed to gain a more thorough understanding for the game when rules are just a collection of ad-hoc rulings, that may or may not have had something cut out?
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Saying I'm wrong and you are right, just because you discuss it a lot, does not make it so. Please cite your source.How about the CRB?
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gpThat is the cost to make light, medium, or heavy armor out of mithril.
If it is a light armor, the mithril cost is +1,000 gp.
Doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt, or chain barding, or a chain shirt for that colossal giant, it only costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril. It also doesn't matter if it is a chain shirt made for a tiny sprite or imp, it still costs 1,000 gp extra to make it out of mithril.Or do you also think the 150 gp cost for making armor masterwork should scale by size, as well?
I think the point is that it requires a lot more mithral to make a set of armor for a big creature than it does for a medium creature. It takes no more material to make a set masterwork, but perhaps more craftsmanship.
I think it is unfortunate that they decided to simplify the chart for armor rather than charging by the pound as they do for other items, which leads directly to this debate.
The weight of a set of armor for a large quadruped is double that for a medium humanoid, and the cost is four times as much. So, how are we supposed to gain a more thorough understanding for the game when rules are just a collection of ad-hoc rulings, that may or may not have had something cut out?
So, you want a mithril chain shirt to cost, ummm, 25 * 500?
That would make a mithral chain shirt, for a small or medium PC, assuming the masterwork cost is still included in the price: 12, 600 gp.Mithril full plate, for a small or medium PC, would cost 50 * 500 + 1500, or 26,500 gp
And then, we would also have to get a price per pound for adamantine, at the least, from the CRB, and maybe other special materials form other sources.
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I think the point is that it requires a lot more mithral to make a set of armor for a big creature than it does for a medium creature. It takes no more material to make a set masterwork, but perhaps more craftsmanship.
I think it is unfortunate that they decided to simplify the chart for armor rather than charging by the pound as they do for other items, which leads directly to this debate.
The weight of a set of armor for a large quadruped is double that for a medium humanoid, and the cost is four times as much. So, how are we supposed to gain a more thorough understanding for the game when rules are just a collection of ad-hoc rulings, that may or may not have had something cut out?
So, you want a mithril chain shirt to cost, ummm, 25 * 500?
That would make a mithral chain shirt, for a small or medium PC, assuming the masterwork cost is still included in the price: 12, 600 gp.Mithril full plate, for a small or medium PC, would cost 50 * 500 + 1500, or 26,500 gp
And then, we would also have to get a price per pound for adamantine, at the least, from the CRB, and maybe other special materials form other sources.
I don't want to make anything cost any specific amount. I just want a coherent structure to the rules so that players do not have to learn thousands of special cases to get a grasp on them.
I, myself, have made chainmail. I understand that it takes a lot of work. From what I have gathered over the years, I expect that making weapons takes both more skill and more work. So, prices do not have to be slavishly attached to the amount of material in them.
That said, a gargantuan chain shirt made from a very expensive material should cost a lot more than twice as much as a medium chain shirt from the same material (1800 gp vs. 1100 gp). Should it cost eight times as much? The Armor for Unusual Creatures table seems to indicate so. If the material were more commonplace, then other factors than the material should factor more into the cost.
So, the table is very simple: eight times the cost. It makes understanding the rules more coherent.
So, the earlier question was: Where does it indicate that the cost for the materials is not factored in when making the calculations from the table?
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Armor for a horse (a Large non-humanoid creature) costs four times as much as armor for a human (a Medium humanoid creature) and also weighs twice as much (see the Armor for Unusual Creatures table). If the barding is for a pony or other Medium mount, the price is only double, and the weight is the same as for Medium armor worn by a humanoid.
This leaves no room for debate on the cost of the armor. It's 4400gp. This overrides to "+1000gp" line in the description of special materials, because those costs are for armor, and this is barding.
Recall, that barding is not exactly armor - it uses the same types, but it is "a type of" armor made for non-humanoids. It's not even on the armor chart, it's on the animals and gear chart, and then refers to the armor table for "types" of armor.
Barding is a [i]type of armor that covers the head, neck, chest, body, and possibly legs of a horse or other mount. Barding made of medium or heavy armor provides better protection than light barding, but at the expense of speed. Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on the Armor and Shields table.
Masterworking makes it complicated, but I don't think it's unreasonable that it would cost more to make 4X as much masterwork chain.
Besides, we are talking about material cost: if you're trying to tell me it costs the same whether I buy 25 lbs of mithril or 100 lbs of mithril, then I'll get my buddies together we'll all order mithril chain at the same time and split the extra 1000gp between us.