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Just for the heck of it, I put together a brief that puts the distance of time on Golarion into perspective by using Earth. As mentioned in the AP Reign of Winter's Rasputin Must Die, which states Earth 1918 is parallel to Golarion's present (4713 AR) and using that to work backward as well as I could.
Yes I have to much time on my hands. :P
AGE OF ENTHRONEMENT
1 AR Absalom founded. Aroden, the Last Azlanti, raises the Starstone. = -2795 BC Old Kingdom starts in Ancient Egypt
896 AR Aroden mortally wounds the wizard king Tar-Baphon on the Isle of Terror. = 1899 BC
1893 AR Norgorber passes the Test of the Starstone. = -902 BC Zhou xiao wang becomes King of the Zhou Dynasty of China.
2632 AR Elves return to Golarion via the Sovyrian Stone in Kyonin. = -163 BC Reign of the Roman Republic
2795 AR = 0 AD
3313 AR Irrisen is born when the Witch Queen Baba Yaga conquers the eastern Lands of the Linnorm Kings. = 518 AD Byzantine Empire first golden age under Justinian Dynasty
3827 AR The Whispering Tyrant imprisoned in Gallowspire. = 1032 AD Benedict IX succeeds John XIX, as the 145th pope
4081 AR Chelish begins the Even-Tongued Conquest. = 1286 AD King Philip IV of France imposes the unfair gabelle tax that persists till 1790 AD
4307 AR Foundation of the Pathfinder Society in Absalom. = 1512 AD The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, painted by Michelangelo Buonarroti, is exhibited.
4407 AR Cheliax founds Korvosa in the frontier region of Varisia. = 1612 AD Galileo Galilei becomes the first astronomer to observe the planet Neptune
4552 AR Mengkare, the great gold dragon, begins his grand experiment on the Isle of Hermea. = 1757 AD The Seven Years War (French & Indian War) rages
4576 AR First Hellknight order, the Order of the Rack, founded in Westcrown. = 1781 AD General Cornwallis surrenders to General George Washington at Yorktown.
4584 AR Chelish explorers from Korvosa settle Magnimar. = 1789 AD George Washington is unanimously elected the first President of the United States
4603 AR Taldor and Qadira reach an uneasy peace. = 1808 AD Napoleon's French troops occupy the Papal States (Vatican) while clashing with Duke Wellingtion in Spain.
4605 AR King Gaspodar of Cheliax prepares for the prophesied manifestation of Aroden. = 1810 AD Napoleon annexes the Kingdom of Holland.
AGE OF LOST OMENS
4606 AR Prophecy fails, Aroden dies. Demonic powers create the Worldwound. The Eye of Abendego forms. = 1811 AD The New Madrid earthquake; Great Comet of 1811
4609 AR Khemet I retakes Osirion from the Keleshite satraps. = 1814 AD Napoleonic Wars: Sixth Coalition forces march into Paris.
4632 AR The province of Molthune secedes from Cheliax. = 1837 AD 18-year-old Queen Victoria accedes to the throne of Great Britain
4640 AR The diabolical House of Thrune seizes control of Cheliax. = 1845 AD "The Raven" by Edgar Allan Poe is published for the first time
4655 AR Nirmathas breaks away from Molthune. = 1860 AD Abraham Lincoln is elected as the 16th President of the United States.
4661 AR Razmir, the Living God, establishes the nation of Razmiran in his own name. = 1866 AD Austro-Prussian War (lasts for 2 months); Trans-Atlantic Cable Finished
4667 AR = The people of Galt break away from Cheliax in the brutal Red Revolution. = 1872 AD The now-crewless American ship Mary Celeste is found
4669 AR = Andoran proclaims independence from diabolical Cheliax in the People’s Revolution. = 1874 AD
4674 AR = The Shackles pirates unite under the the Hurricane King. = 1879 AD Anglo-Zulu War (5 months)
4682 AR = Queen Domina of Korvosa gains the service of the Hellknight Order of the Nail. = 1888 AD Wilhelm II becomes German Emperor.
4690 AR = Gorilla King Ruthazek attacks Alkenstar. = 1895 AD Rudyard Kipling publishes the story Mowgli Leaves the Jungle Forever
4698 AR = A terrible earthquake rocks Absalom. = 1903 AD The Wright Brothers fly at Kittyhawk
4699 AR = The royal house of Rogarvia vanishes in Brevoy, House Surtova takes the crown. = 1904 AD Theodore Roosevelt elected US President
4702 AR = The runelords stir to life in Varisia.= 1907 AD Britain, France and Russia form the Triple Entente to counter the Central Powers (Germany, France and Italy)
4708 AR = King Eodred retreats from rule of Korvosa, leaving Queen Ileosa, in charge. = 1913 AD Woodrow Wilson elected US President
4713 AR = 1918 AD (Earth) Armistic between the Allies and Central Powers
4714 AR = 1919 AD The Treaty of Versailles is signed ending World War I
4715 AD = 1920 AD Adolf Hitler presents his National Socialist Program in Munich to the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) which renames itself as the Nazi Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei).
That's awesome, thanks! :)
That's awesome, thanks! :)
Welcome. :)
Just for the heck of it, I put together a brief that puts the distance of time on Golarion into perspective by using Earth. As mentioned in the AP Reign of Winter's Rasputin Must Die, which states Earth 1918 is parallel to Golarion's present (4713 AR) and using that to work backward as well as I could.
Whoa, is that true!? It'd be so cool to write an adventure where someone establishes a permanent portal to earth and all sorts of weird things come to earth, and the humans reactions to it.
Cool timeline too!
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Whoa, is that true!? It'd be so cool to write an adventure where someone establishes a permanent portal to earth and all sorts of weird things come to earth, and the humans reactions to it.
Cool timeline too!
Yup. Totally true. And a valid game concept if you want to explore it...though there's some evidence that most of Earth (unlike the area you visit in Rasputin Must Die!) is somewhat anti-magical, which might ameliorate the effects somewhat.
I'll also third the 'Cool Timeline!' thing. :)
If 4714 is the "current" year on Golarion, why does it equate to 1919 on Earth?
1874- Houdini and Churchill are born.
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"4702 AR = The runelords stir to life in Varisia.= 1907 AD Britain, France and Russia form the Triple Entente to counter the Central Powers (Germany, France and Italy)"
You've got France there twice. I think you meant Austria–Hungary and/or the Ottoman for the Central Powers.
The Triple Alliance was between Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy.
The Central Powers of World War I were Germany, Austria-Hungary, and later the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria.
There was never such a thing as the Triple Entente. There was the Franco-Russian Alliance, the Entente Cordiale between the United Kingdom and France, and the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907, to which the timeline seemingly refers. This arrangement was and remains known colloquially as the Triple Entente by analogy with the Triple Alliance, but was not formalized in a single treaty the way the latter was. Ironically, the looser grouping stuck together in World War I until the October Revolution took Russia out of the war, while Italy ultimately entered the war as an Allied power and not a Central Power as one might have expected from its membership in the Triple Alliance.
The Allied Powers in World War I - originally France, Russia, the United Kingdom, Belgium, and Serbia, and later Montenegro, Albania, Italy, Greece, Romania, the United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and sundry colonies and bandwagoners - were sometimes called the "Entente Powers," and the Anglo-French alliance that undergirded the interwar system was often called the "Entente" until the fall of France in World War II.
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Funny, I was just making a Google Doc using this idea. I guess someone beat me to it by 7 years! Definitely not complaining though, this saves me a lot of work.
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Now I wonder how the development of Golarion looked like compared to earth and when it started to diverge.
Did Absolom in AR 1 had the same technological knowledge as Ancient Egypt?
How did Golarion look like when the elves returned as compared to the Roman Republic?
At which point in time did earth pull ahead of Golarion?
Remember that technological innovation is not linear; we know the Shory and Jistka had tech lost to modern Golarion, and I think parts of Arcadia might be the most advanced place in that regard on the planet currently.
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Just to be pedantic, you need to add 1 year to the modern earth dates. When 1 BC ends, 1 AD begins. There is no year 0.
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well there also isn't a year 0 for Absalom Reckoning, so subtracting 2795 from it to get the Gregorian calendar year still generally works.
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Just to be pedantic, you need to add 1 year to the modern earth dates. When 1 BC ends, 1 AD begins. There is no year 0.
To be extra pedantic, it's AD 1. The years are written as 1 BC, AD 1. Otherwise one can use BCE/CE notation: 1 BCE, 1 CE. The current year of the Gregorian calendar is written as AD 2021 or 2021 CE.
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"Worldbreaker was a massive bombard finished in 2009 AR by the foundries of Alkenstar. It was commissioned by the nation of Taldor for its Fifth Army of Exploration.[1] The largest known cannon to date, its bore measured an unbelievable 30 stone (roughly equivalent to 90 inches)."
IIRC 2009 AR is 786 BC.
I believe progress on Golarion and on Earth cannot be compared.
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Never realized that the way timeline is setup that enough time has passed since Reign of Winter that it would be technically completely plausible to have nazi punching adventure O_o
(I doubt we would ever seen that, Nazis with genuine occult powers is ridiculous anyway as fitting to pulp fiction as it is)
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Its not constant, but technological regression is rather rare, especially over an large area and in all technologies.
Well, the Late Bronze Age Collapse caused the regression of knowledge to the point that the Mediterranean and Near-Orient cultures needed almost two millennia to get to the same level of cultural development.
The Mesopotamian cultures used the 0 and their mathematical knowledge was to the level of what sixteen-year-olds learn at school today.We ended with Roman numerals until the XIII century!
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Huh, the Great Depression hits Earth next year in the Golarion timeline.
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Clearly evidence that Abadar will be the god to die.
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In that case question still remains why Golarion stopped to progress (unless you want to default to "the designers didn't think it through)
I raised the theory in another thread: when you have an entire aligned Outsider subset dedicated to overseeing the progression of civilisation, and ensuring it advances only in ways determined by the inscrutable plans of the Monad, when a civilisation both fails to collapse but nor does it advance quickly then their influence may be the subtle underlying cause.
Golarion advances only in directions approved and permitted by the Aeons. Different areas might progress at different rates, but only as far as they are allowed, and if something happens to disrupt that progress - either collapsing it into an unexpected Dark Age or propelling it into an unscheduled Industrial Revolution - the Aeons or their agents would subtly intervene to prevent or mitigate it. That might take the form of familiars subtly guiding their masters to innovate, or an Inevitable turning up in Absalom to murder the inventor of the steam engine on Golarion. The Aeons aren't cruel, nor are they indiscriminate, but they also aren't kind.
Creative Director
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My take: Magic slows technological advance. In a world like Golarion, magic does things better and more efficiently than technology, so there's less of an urge to push technology. Except in areas where magic ISN'T something that's better and more efficient, hence the whole theme for Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes.
Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.
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Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.
The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't see, for instance, infernal engines competing with steam engines to drive jennies or looms, instead we see the predominance of handicraft production. We don't see aiudara or the Stone Road or other teleportation outcompeting caravan or seagoing trade (yet). The examples are myriad.
To the extent magic is used in the labor process at all, it is employed by highly-skilled, nigh-exclusive classes of people who derive their high status from its exclusivity and their personal power from their exclusive skills. And it is this social/guild power of magicians (including clerics, druids, etc.) which must account for both the suppression of magic in general labor-saving applications and the suppression of mundane alternatives. Worth noting is that magical engines (including infernal engines and whatever the engine is that the Aspis Consortium uses on their ships, as well as aiudara) are as equally dependent as everything else magical on their creators' specialized knowledge and skill, and are difficult to reproduce even if the art of their creation is not outright lost with their creators. Compare machines making other machines, which is comparatively easy.
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Creative Director
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Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't see, for instance, infernal engines competing with steam engines to drive jennies or looms, instead we see the predominance of handicraft production. We don't see aiudara or the Stone Road or other teleportation outcompeting caravan or seagoing trade (yet). The examples are myriad.
To the extent magic is used in the labor process at all, it is employed by highly-skilled, nigh-exclusive classes of people who derive their high status from its exclusivity and their personal power from their exclusive skills. And it is this social/guild power of magicians (including clerics, druids, etc.) which must account for both the suppression of magic in general labor-saving applications and the suppression of mundane alternatives. Worth noting is that magical engines (including infernal engines and whatever the engine is that the Aspis Consortium uses on their ships, as well as aiudara) are as equally dependent as everything else magical on their creators' specialized knowledge and skill, and are difficult to reproduce even if the art of their creation is not outright lost with their creators. Compare machines making other machines, which is comparatively easy.
Sure... but that's more a result of us not wanting to ape the real world with this game. It's important to keep in mind that the goal of the campaing setting is to give folks a fun place to do their fanasy-based RPG stuff, not to simulate or duplicate a real-world era or to translate this world into one where magic does what technology does.
That's not and never has been the point and goal of Golarion, so any attempt to make it sound like it is, logically, is doomed to failure. As my attempt to do just that points out! :-)
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I mean, some of "magic provides easier solutions than technology" combined with "magic can't be as widely available and scalable as technology" results in Golarion's progress slowing both in technological and in social progress.
Since if the driving force to solve a problem is "some powerful and wealthy individual commissions people to solve a problem" and that solution is "use magic" then that specific solution isn't going to be as relevant to less wealthy or powerful members of society than things like the printing press, electric lights,telephones, radio, vaccination, anaesthesia, airplanes, and the internal combustion engine. For the most part in earth history it was the wealthy people who got these things first, but things like "electric lights" are going to spread through society a lot faster than "the ability to cast the light cantrip."
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I mean, some of "magic provides easier solutions than technology" combined with "magic can't be as widely available and scalable as technology" results in Golarion's progress slowing both in technological and in social progress.
Since if the driving force to solve a problem is "some powerful and wealthy individual commissions people to solve a problem" and that solution is "use magic" then that specific solution isn't going to be as relevant to less wealthy or powerful members of society than things like the printing press, electric lights,telephones, radio, vaccination, anaesthesia, airplanes, and the internal combustion engine. For the most part in earth history it was the wealthy people who got these things first, but things like "electric lights" are going to spread through society a lot faster than "the ability to cast the light cantrip."
That is a novel take on the topic (at least for me) and I like it. It does indeed make some good amount of sense.
Sure... but that's more a result of us not wanting to ape the real world with this game. It's important to keep in mind that the goal of the campaing setting is to give folks a fun place to do their fanasy-based RPG stuff, not to simulate or duplicate a real-world era or to translate this world into one where magic...
As a slightly opportunistic tangent on the theme of the Golarion timeline... don't suppose you could provide some clarity on when the Worldwound was closed?
LO: World Guide says 4713 and 4718 in different places, and it's a relevant background point for a character I'm making.|
Rule and Lore Creative Director
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The 4718 date is the correct one. During the development of LO World Guide, I asked James about an appropriate date for the closing of the Worldwound. While the AP released in 4713 and the typical rule is to use the year of release with the equivalent year in the setting to determine when the AP occurs, we didn't go with that for Wrath of the Righteous. We agreed that an AP like this wrapping up in just a few months didn't feel right. It's basically a massive war, so it taking several years would make sense, right? Thus, we landed on the 4718 date. However, at some point during the remaining development process, the date got changed back to 4713. It's also cropped up once or twice since then, which has caused this frustrating confusion.
The Worldwound closed in 4718, full stop. We'll be doing our best to make sure that this is the date that's used in the future and being able to help oversee these aspects of the setting as Creative Director will hopefully prevent this mixup from propagating in the future.
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Never realized that the way timeline is setup that enough time has passed since Reign of Winter that it would be technically completely plausible to have nazi punching adventure O_o
(I doubt we would ever seen that, Nazis with genuine occult powers is ridiculous anyway as fitting to pulp fiction as it is)
Well, we already got Nazis on the moon as a (terrible) movie, so "out there concepts with Nazis in it" has been done a lot in entertainment history.
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Well, we already got Nazis on the moon as a (terrible) movie, so "out there concepts with Nazis in it" has been done a lot in entertainment history.Never realized that the way timeline is setup that enough time has passed since Reign of Winter that it would be technically completely plausible to have nazi punching adventure O_o
(I doubt we would ever seen that, Nazis with genuine occult powers is ridiculous anyway as fitting to pulp fiction as it is)
"Out there concepts with Nazis in it" includes making them a permanent part of the setting, which, given that Paizo has already done that with White Russians (the people who literally wrote the book on anti-Semitism) being given refuge, favor, and status in Irrisen, I do not trust them to handle with grace.
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"Out there concepts with Nazis in it" includes making them a permanent part of the setting, which, given that Paizo has already done that with White Russians (the people who literally wrote the book on anti-Semitism) being given refuge, favor, and status in Irrisen, I do not trust them to handle with grace.Well, we already got Nazis on the moon as a (terrible) movie, so "out there concepts with Nazis in it" has been done a lot in entertainment history.Never realized that the way timeline is setup that enough time has passed since Reign of Winter that it would be technically completely plausible to have nazi punching adventure O_o
(I doubt we would ever seen that, Nazis with genuine occult powers is ridiculous anyway as fitting to pulp fiction as it is)
I'm a German historian (by education, if not by trade) and I give the okay to use Nazis if they want to.
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I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.
I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.
Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
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I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.
"Out there concepts with Nazis in it" includes making them a permanent part of the setting, which, given that Paizo has already done that with White Russians (the people who literally wrote the book on anti-Semitism) being given refuge, favor, and status in Irrisen, I do not trust them to handle with grace.Well, we already got Nazis on the moon as a (terrible) movie, so "out there concepts with Nazis in it" has been done a lot in entertainment history.Never realized that the way timeline is setup that enough time has passed since Reign of Winter that it would be technically completely plausible to have nazi punching adventure O_o
(I doubt we would ever seen that, Nazis with genuine occult powers is ridiculous anyway as fitting to pulp fiction as it is)
I might just add, though, that the White Russians (very much not good people) should fit in with the very much not good people ruling the oppressive frozen magical police state that is Irrisen. If anything, in my eyes it serves to underscore the brutal history of the White Russians that they were readily accepted into a repressive state that treats it's citizens as little better than slaves.
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I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for dusters, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.
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Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for dusters, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
The Desnans in Nidal live in an area of ranchland, if memory serves. I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle.
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I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle.
Just the classic Highland Coo, but with emo hair.
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The Desnans in Nidal live in an area of ranchland, if memory serves. I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle.Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for dusters, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
Optimistic of you to assume Nidalese leather would come from...cows.