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So several weeks on my knickers are still in a twist over PDFs, but otherwise I have no complaints.
Wait...that's not true. I tried Adventurer's League in L.A. last weekend, and it wasn't a great experience. They have a way to go there.
But as far as the rules themselves, they're solid.
Where abouts in L.A. bugleyman?
IT, has Dark been released yet its been awhile since I looked. /threadjackI might take a look at it and consider it if Paizo try to make a new version of Pathfinder. For right now though Pathfinder is near as makes no difference to the perfect rpg, so I don't see the point yet.For you..
I mean, it isn't call of cthulhu, or fate, so it isn't near to the perfect RPG for me, and it isn't 5th so it isn't as close as anyone had gotten to the perfect fantasy rpg for me either ;)
Or Dark, the perfect stealth rpg.
Seriously, until you play that game, you have no idea how well stealth can be done in an RPG.
Early next year. He did an update after gencon, a few rules clarifications and a new adventure. He had personal issues during the summer that pushed multiple projects back.
How much of that is the adventures? How much the organized play setup? And how much GMs not adjusting to the change in play style?
Those are good questions. Frankly, I did not care for my DM, which of course colored the experience. Dividing up money at the end seemed needlessly painful. Also, the uses of downtime were not clearly articulated anywhere I could find. Finally, recording character progress seemed very wonky -- the DM doesn't sign anything, etc.
Overall, it just seems half-baked, which isn't terribly surprising. I'll give it several months and try again.
Where abouts in L.A. bugleyman?
Gateway 2014. I was quite impressed with the Con overall. :)
Played grid less for years. Grew to HATE it. I will NEVER go back, to the chagrin of at least one DM so far.
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How much of that is the adventures? How much the organized play setup? And how much GMs not adjusting to the change in play style?Those are good questions. Frankly, I did not care for my DM, which of course colored the experience. Dividing up money at the end seemed needlessly painful. Also, the uses of downtime were not clearly articulated anywhere I could find. Finally, recording character progress seemed very wonky -- the DM doesn't sign anything, etc.
Overall, it just seems half-baked, which isn't terribly surprising. I'll give it several months and try again.
I'm running a game for my local store adventure league. I'd agree with you here in some aspects.
It all seems very loose at the moment. However, part of that is very attractive to me as a DM. There is far more flexibility in how DM's can run scenarios than there is in other organised play systems that I've been involved in. The whole thing really feels like a home game with some addendums on how and when you level.
Downtime is detailed in the leagues online supplement for players and DM's. I think the fact the game is still only a players handbook and one module goes a long way to explaining why it feels incomplete so far though.
Cheers
Are you playing any specific world or set of modules or just 2Ed homebrew? I played a little 2Ed a few years back, the DM spliced in a feat from 3.5 though we did not play enough to see how the "experiment" would work.Yeah, I completely dropped PF and moved on before the DDN playtest started and made the switch to 2nd edition AD&D.
So 5th edition really doesn't offer me anything that I want or don't already have...
2012 I went from PF back to 2nd ed as well, have not DMed it since. Been trying out 5E so far, parts of it annoy me like the healing but overall it is good. Less options= better atm and most options in 3.x games are traps anyway.
Probably going to go with 5E for the d20 fix, houseruled 2nd ed for the settings.
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I really like the look of the rules so far (Starter box and the Basic Rules PDF) and will be purchasing the PHB soon....kinda pissy about a $50 price tag for just a PHB. I feel that is too much. $35-$40 I could've seen but $50 just seem like a gouge and a price that will make it hard for the younger crowd to get into. What 12-13 year old is running around with $50 for a PHB, $50 more for a DMG, and then has to figure out what to do about monsters for his game.....$100 and no monsters or adventures seem like a bad price point to start out.
At least Pathfinder was a PHB and DMG combined for the Core price. $50 seems like a greedy price-point.
I really like the look of the rules so far (Starter box and the Basic Rules PDF) and will be purchasing the PHB soon....kinda pissy about a $50 price tag for just a PHB. I feel that is too much. $35-$40 I could've seen but $50 just seem like a gouge and a price that will make it hard for the younger crowd to get into. What 12-13 year old is running around with $50 for a PHB, $50 more for a DMG, and then has to figure out what to do about monsters for his game.....$100 and no monsters or adventures seem like a bad price point to start out.
At least Pathfinder was a PHB and DMG combined for the Core price. $50 seems like a greedy price-point.Amazon has it for $29.95.
Relying on Amazon having it cheap doesn't change the basic argument; nor does having a basic pdf entirely remove it. Not everyone can or will use Amazon or some other online retailer, and even if they do, the price is still ultimately set by WotC, and they still are the ones to ultimately answer for it. The basic pdf and the starter set are a good start, but there is still a very real gap in price between those products and the books one is expected to buy to routinely play or DM. After seeing the player's handbook, it would be well worth the money for someone genuinely interested and able to play it frequently, but probably not for someone still on the fence after trying out the basic pdf and/or the starter set or not able to play the system routinely. Both WotC and Amazon, as well as others, have done a good job of mitigating most of the price concerns for those truly happy about the system, but the price will still be a factor for those not willing or able to fully commit to playing the system routinely.
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Maybe the younger ones will do what me and my mates did when we first got into gaming and had no cash. We all pitched in and bought a copy? That was back in the 80s and the prices we were paying for roleplay stuff even then was considered high.
Separating the PHB from the DM guide keeps magic items firmly in the hands of the DM again. This is a great thing as far as i m concerned. This edition so far has given me more freedom for DMing than 3.5 and Pathfinder. Less chance of rules lawyers telling me what I can and can't have in a game cos it's not laid out in such and such a book.
I love the fact that thebPHB has monsters in it for summoners and wild shape too. It gives exactly you need to be a player for the game, nothing more.
The running of the game world is back in the DM's hands.
Maybe the younger ones will do what me and my mates did when we first got into gaming and had no cash. We all pitched in and bought a copy? That was back in the 80s and the prices we were paying for roleplay stuff even then was considered high.
Separating the PHB from the DM guide keeps magic items firmly in the hands of the DM again. This is a great thing as far as i m concerned. This edition so far has given me more freedom for DMing than 3.5 and Pathfinder. Less chance of rules lawyers telling me what I can and can't have in a game cos it's not laid out in such and such a book.
I love the fact that thebPHB has monsters in it for summoners and wild shape too. It gives exactly you need to be a player for the game, nothing more.
The running of the game world is back in the DM's hands.
All of that will work for some people, but the people likely to do that aren't going to be phased by the price in the first place, so it's really a moot argument. The people who are going to be hesitant about the price are those not in full agreement with everything you just said, at which point the comparatively higher price point when compared to other stuff on the market will start to hurt WotC. Getting a lot of people to pay that much for something that doesn't exactly suit their particular interests (and 5E will not ultimately automatically appeal to everyone, in large part precisely because of the level of DM control that most of the system's supporters seem to be relishing) is going to be tough when there's a good chance that they can find something that does for probably a cheaper price, especially when you throw in movies, phone app games, computer games, and all the other media entertainment options available today that wasn't available in the 80s. The price by itself won't be that much of an issue, but taken with any kind of other hesitance for any reason, and the price tag will amplify those other reservations people may have.
I really like the look of the rules so far (Starter box and the Basic Rules PDF) and will be purchasing the PHB soon....kinda pissy about a $50 price tag for just a PHB. I feel that is too much. $35-$40 I could've seen but $50 just seem like a gouge and a price that will make it hard for the younger crowd to get into. What 12-13 year old is running around with $50 for a PHB, $50 more for a DMG, and then has to figure out what to do about monsters for his game.....$100 and no monsters or adventures seem like a bad price point to start out.
At least Pathfinder was a PHB and DMG combined for the Core price. $50 seems like a greedy price-point.
I don't know anything about kids these days, but how much is a computer game? When I was growing up an RPG book was about half the price of a computer game and that always seemed reasonable to me, I just used up birthdays and Christmases to get them all.
I think the price sensitive always have the online retailers anyhow "RRP" doesn't mean what it used to, in my opinion.
Given the sales figures of 5e so far I think the pricing seems about right to me.
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Most definitely sticking with Pathfinder. I've already invested hundreds of dollars (some were group funds) into the PF books and accessories.
I've looked at the D&D 5th ed rules, and while they look interesting, I can't see myself purchasing more than the PHB, if I find a DM I want to play under. To me, at least, it's too much of an investment to switch from a system that I already love back to D&D. And from what I've seen, there's no guarentee that they won't change to 6th Ed in another few years.
For those who can afford to change systems every few years, and haven't fallen in love with the PF system, or just those who would prefer D&D, good luck and may you have many good campaigns. I just can't afford that investment all over again.
This is the key argument I see...people are already too invested to switch. That makes sense. My entire pathfinder collection was lost when I moved along with some other stuff that makes me want to cry in a closet so I don't mind buying these new books.
I think it is a bit unfair to suggest that they would switch editions in a few years. 4E lasted 6-7 years? That exceeds my definition of a few. Pathfinder has been out for about 5 years right? Also, a 6-7 year tenure for a game that was hated by a huge chunk of the community is not bad. I guess you are referring to 3/3.5E. I would argue thought that many consumers wanted something new. There were things that were perceived as broken with the game. It just turned out that 4E wasn't what many of them wanted and they were willing to play a game they thought was broken over that particular edition.
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Given the sales figures of 5e so far I think the pricing seems about right to me.
I suppose. However, if you look at their competition I think it is about $10 too high. That isn't a huge deal. I expected it to be about $39.99. There are definitely people who are refusing to buy it because of the price though and many more opting to not purchase it at their FLGS because of the price difference with Amazon.
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Given the sales figures of 5e so far I think the pricing seems about right to me.
The true test hasn't really sunk in yet. The initial sales were guaranteed regardless of price. Once everyone who knew they were going to buy the books no matter what the price was, either as collector's items to play the game, is when the true test will start. The sales figure over the course of the first year are more important than the sales figure for the first month.
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I don't think it's expensive at all. It's rare do I say say impossible to find a rpg harcover that cost less than 40$ nowadays. Were not even talking full color glossy pages high production either. I don't like it yet were no longer going to get tommorow rpgs now at yesterdays prices. Amazon pricing is as near as were going to get. Remember the Battletech Readouts that used to be between 15-20$ now sell for 30$ before tax. Everything is more expensive.
Print a book. Having it bound. Then moving it from the where it was printed to the store. It cost money to do so. Unlike the rpg books don't magically appeaer out of thin year. If I could I would force every gamer to take a class on basic economics as they are not really educated in that subject. Everything is more expensive.
I do have to say that if anyone in this thread thinks that Amazon is not a big factor in people buying habits guess again. I work in a bookstore where we don't match the online price. Our traffic in the stores fell by at least half in the last then years or so. As people switched to amazon or our own site. So I have very little sympathy for anyone who says the core is expensive when Amazon has it for cheaper. The PF core before discount is 50$ on Amazon so its pretty pricey too. http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook/dp/16012515 05/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409928713&sr=8-1&keywords=pathfinder +core
The 5E core before discount is 50$ as well http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Dungeons-Dragons-Wizards/dp/07869656 06/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Rocket Age with decent production values and black and white art is 40$ http://www.amazon.com/Rocket-Age-Ken-Spencer/dp/0857441582/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UT F8&qid=1409928882&sr=8-1&keywords=cubicle+7+rocket
Your not going to get high production values at 40$ . Not anymore. Maybe 10-15 years ago. That ship has sailed. No company run by anyone with a ounce of business sense is going to sell something at a lesser price because some fans can't afford it.
You're missing the point again. It's not expensive to those that already know they want it; thus the whole Amazon argument, while not completely unimportant, is not a particularly valid argument in this case. You're talking about people who would likely find a way to buy the book even if it cost twice as much. Regardless of what sale price Amazon can offer, $50 is still expensive to those who have other concerns and aren't willing to drop that kind of money on something they may not like and could easily drop no more than half that on a wide variety of other stuff in the market today and get something they know they will enjoy; having it available for $25 or so on Amazon isn't going to have much of an impact on these people. It's not about whether people can afford it, it's whether people truly find value in it or not. By setting the base price point as high as they did, WotC ensured that many still on the fence and unsure of the value they would get out of it personally will not be buying the book without a lot of hesitation as it amplifies many of the other reservations people may have about the system.
That is all well and good, but we live in the day of the PDF, which doesn't have to be printed, shipped, packaged and reshipped. It is economically beneficial to all parties (except printers and shipping companies) to engage in digital distribution. I do not own a single physical Pathfinder book. They are all PDFs. In this age of the tablet, it is far more convenient.
Why Wizards resists this is beyond me. It can't be DRM, because scans pf physical books appear on pirate sites the day they become open to the public. Requiring the expense of 50$ harms the public and the company, because, in addition to the book costing Wizards more to produce and ship, many people who would buy the less expensive PDF will not buy the 50$ book. I know that is my main issue. I would spend 20$-25$ on a 5th Ed. PDF, but I will not be spending 150$ on three books under any circumstances.
Imagine how many Pathfinder PDFs I could get for that money.
Because those people can't go to Amazon and get it for $30 if they're not sure about paying $50? You seem to be arguing that people who aren't sure about it will be basing their decision on the list price, not on the price they'd actually be paying. Which seems odd.
You're going to lose some impulse buys in brick and mortar stores with the higher price point, but for anyone shopping online and worried about price, the actual price is whatever discounted price Amazon offers.
Now, if they'd actually priced it at $40, then the Amazon discount would get it closer to $20, so maybe that's an argument.
People are more likely to impulse buy a physical product they can see and touch and skim through. Very few people to go Amazon or the internet for impulse purchases or to buy something they are still unsure off. That means that the price they will be looking at is going to be much closer to the base $50 than the discount that someone like Amazon can provide. To get those people to go online and buy it, it would probably have to be in the $10 to $15 after all the online discounts kick in, so the starting price is still a notable factor, because Amazon can only discount things so far.
In the end, the Amazon argument is valid for determining where people are going to be inclined to buy the book. It does less well in convincing others not so sure of the system that they want go ahead and buy the book regardless of their concerns and reservations.
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People are more likely to impulse buy a physical product they can see and touch and skim through. Very few people to go Amazon or the internet for impulse purchases or to buy something they are still unsure off.Because those people can't go to Amazon and get it for $30 if they're not sure about paying $50? You seem to be arguing that people who aren't sure about it will be basing their decision on the list price, not on the price they'd actually be paying. Which seems odd.
You're going to lose some impulse buys in brick and mortar stores with the higher price point, but for anyone shopping online and worried about price, the actual price is whatever discounted price Amazon offers.
Now, if they'd actually priced it at $40, then the Amazon discount would get it closer to $20, so maybe that's an argument.
LOL. I must be doing it wrong then because I sure as hell impulse buy from amazon and other online retailers and definitely DO NOT impulse buy when I have to pay full price in a brick and mortar.
If I have budget of $50 for the Players Handbook and Amazon has it for $30? I'm more than likely to also pick up Hoard of the Dragon Queen for $19 pretty much filling up my $50 budget. In store? I'm stuck with one or the other. Amazon actually increases my chance of an impulse buy because of the prices as opposed to a brick and mortar.
EDIT: Re; your comment about impulse buys in store? Sticker shock can stop an impuse buy right in it's tracks in a brick and mortar. I've seen it happen. Hell, it's happened to ME.
Maybe this thread should be retitled "Yeah I was slumming it with Pathfinder but now that ACTUAL D&D is back I'm better now..."
I love how it seems like Deja vu from around 2007 or so when everyone was basically bashing and saying the same thing about 3.5 in preparation for 4E.
The more things change the more they say the same I guess.
I've been running Pathfinder for the last few years because my players haven't been interested in any other games, but doing so has been a huge pain in my ass, and a time vampire to boot, even with prefab adventure paths.
I'm glad that my players like 5E and want to make the switch so I can finally put 2000 D&D to rest.
I agree on the impulse buys, but there's no way they could knock the Core PHB dow low enough to hit the $10-$15 range, so if that's your target it's irrelevant.
It's entirely relevant though. If you're looking at needing at product to be in the $10-$20 range to grab impulse purchasers or those on the fence, than the base price matters because it will drive what the final price will be after discounts. If the base price is too high to readily grab that price range, it will create additional challenges. By pricing the PHB where they did, WotC made the point of entry more expensive than your average tabletop RPG, as expensive as a typical video game or movie by itself, and more expensive than a rental service like netflix. This doesn't automatically hurt them, but it does impact the amount of effort that will be required to sustain the sales they are seeing now.
The starter set is a good product, but it's not a replacement for the PHB, and now you're asking people to buy both the starter set and, later, the other core books, jacking the total price up. It is useful in helping limit the challenges created by the high base price of the core books, much the same way that Amazon offering it at massive discounts does, but it doesn't make those challenges go away or resolve them entirely.
In the end, the high base price is fair for the product being offered, but it does create challenges that WotC will need to be aware of and address in order to sustain strong sales. Simply saying Amazon can offer it for 50% off isn't going to be enough; it's a start, but it's not enough by itself.
That is all well and good, but we live in the day of the PDF, which doesn't have to be printed, shipped, packaged and reshipped. It is economically beneficial to all parties (except printers and shipping companies) to engage in digital distribution. I do not own a single physical Pathfinder book. They are all PDFs. In this age of the tablet, it is far more convenient.
Why Wizards resists this is beyond me. It can't be DRM, because scans pf physical books appear on pirate sites the day they become open to the public. Requiring the expense of 50$ harms the public and the company, because, in addition to the book costing Wizards more to produce and ship, many people who would buy the less expensive PDF will not buy the 50$ book. I know that is my main issue. I would spend 20$-25$ on a 5th Ed. PDF, but I will not be spending 150$ on three books under any circumstances.
Imagine how many Pathfinder PDFs I could get for that money.
This is the barrier for me right now.
I down buy physical RPG books any more, with a couple of exceptions. I particularly don't buy physical copies for games with multiple books. I own a physical copy of the PFCRB and Bestiary 1, but both of those were bought around the time of their initial release, since then I've pretty firmly switched to using my ipad exclusively. 90% of the time I don't even bring them to gaming sessions.
I'm playing 5E right now, but I haven't bought a copy. I'm not interested in a physical one, I'd buy a digital one for $15-20.
Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question. There's actually quantifiable work and research put into coming up with a price point. Paizo's own CRB costs $50 and don't mince page numbers. You get either game in print for the same price. That's not to say Wizards modeled there price after Paizo at all. $50 to buy *a* game is pretty standard. It is competitively priced on Amazon perhaps more influenced my Pathfinder which goes for the same price. Your arguments, sunshadow, is entirely trying to tear into Wizards while conveniently ignoring both a) gaming industry (not even print/publishing) standards and b) the practices of the company whose forum on which you're posting. If Wizards is doing it wrong, then so is Paizo and so is most of the games industry.
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Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question. There's actually quantifiable work and research put into coming up with a price point. Paizo's own CRB costs $50 and don't mince page numbers. You get either game in print for the same price. That's not to say Wizards modeled there price after Paizo at all. $50 to buy *a* game is pretty standard. It is competitively priced on Amazon perhaps more influenced my Pathfinder which goes for the same price. Your arguments, sunshadow, is entirely trying to tear into Wizards while conveniently ignoring both a) gaming industry (not even print/publishing) standards and b) the practices of the company whose forum on which you're posting. If Wizards is doing it wrong, then so is Paizo and so is most of the games industry.
I just want to point out the fact that with the Pathfinder CRB is the equivalent of the Player's Handbook AND the DM's guide (576 pages). Yes I know about the GameMastery Guide but that's an optional book and is not the full equivalent of a traditional Dungeon Masters Guide. The 5E Player's Handbook is JUST the Player's Handbook (320pgs). Most other games that come out at the $50 - $70 price point (FFG's Warhammer 40K and Star Wars RPG's (448 pages) for example) have pretty much everything that you need to run the game.
But I do believe that Wizards has the right to set the price at whatever they feel the market will bear. And apparently @ $50 a pop it bears quite well.
It's not expensive to those that already know they want it;
Just so. Even $100 would be a minimal expense considering how many hours of enjoyment you'll eventually derive from it. The rub, as you say, is that people don't yet know if they'll like it. To this end, it seems to me that free PDFs, even those with limited but playable content (demos more than teasers) are a good tool for selling books. I know that I personally am definitely inclined to buy a book much more readily after seeing a PDF of it. For me, PDFs are perfect advertisements, but would never replace the hardcopy.
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Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question. There's actually quantifiable work and research put into coming up with a price point. Paizo's own CRB costs $50 and don't mince page numbers. You get either game in print for the same price. That's not to say Wizards modeled there price after Paizo at all. $50 to buy *a* game is pretty standard. It is competitively priced on Amazon perhaps more influenced my Pathfinder which goes for the same price. Your arguments, sunshadow, is entirely trying to tear into Wizards while conveniently ignoring both a) gaming industry (not even print/publishing) standards and b) the practices of the company whose forum on which you're posting. If Wizards is doing it wrong, then so is Paizo and so is most of the games industry.
Agreed and seconded.
I know of two people who don't buy on the internet. Both self professed luddites. Otherwise about I would say 90% of the gamers I know would buy online. Some don't to support the lgs. I know next year looking for a new job I may go online myself. Reserving the lgs for used or books I can't wait to be mailed.
As well if a gamer is not sure about wanting to buy the 5E PHB their is a starter set and a free PDF they can download. No way no how is any rpg company going to price a PHB at the 10-15$ range. The only one I know is Palladium books at 20$ or so. Even then at the cost of the book looking and reading like it was a product made in the 1980s. I think Your right Buri it just any excuse for Sun to tear into Wizards.
As for 5E not being in pdf yes it's a little annoying but you know what the rpg industry and gamers like msyelf did just fine without pdfs before they became the industry standard. It's not a deal breaker to some of us.
I agree the PDF thing is annoying but it really is minor. If it keeps you out of the game, then that sucks. Yes, there are PHB torrents out there. Yes, you're evil if you use them. I feel there's more than enough out there for free that's legal to get a very good feel for the core of the game. If you (anyone, not you memorax) disagree, then we won't see eye to eye here.
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Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question.
I don't think that means what you think it does, at least without some further qualification.
With no PDF option, people will need to see if that Dungeonscape (right name?) is viable for them when it's released.
I don't see any issues with the book prices (other than I would love to pay less of course). Amazon with their free shipping is the cheapest price you'll generally find new.
There is *a* PDF option. It's just not the full PHB but still enough to form an opinion about the game itself and its design philosophy.
There is *a* PDF option. It's just not the full PHB but still enough to form an opinion about the game itself and its design philosophy.
I'm curious as to whether the Basic pdf will contain enough info to play/run the various setting books and other supplements. Given that the various class archetypes are described as one option of archetype in Basic, rather than a "Basic class" which functions as an archetype once you get to the PHB, I think it will. If so, it will be possible to buy Dark Sun (or whichever) and play it with Basic until some archetype for a PHB class is so awesomely awesome that you buy the PHB to fulfill the desperate nerd yearning in your heart.
Um, I meant to say that I think having a free pdf as entry level D&D rather than a shoddily made cheap paperback is a good idea.
You don't always get what you want. Not many games have a 'try before you buy' option anymore. In this case, you should be thankful you have that at all. If you look at the Basic Rules PDF and like it, save your dollars and buy the PHB. That's your option for now. If you don't like it, then move on.
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You don't always get what you want. Not many games have a 'try before you buy' option anymore. In this case, you should be thankful you have that at all. If you look at the Basic Rules PDF and like it, save your dollars and buy the PHB. That's your option for now. If you don't like it, then move on.
I already have the PHB, but for some (as noted above) are looking for an online offering (is Dungeonscape that solution? TBD). I think you are so quick to defend that you are completely missing what is being discussed. Competing products have these type of offerings, so it is a legitimate interim critique until the situation changes.