Will you be switching to D&D Next when it comes out or will you stay with Pathfinder?


4th Edition

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Liberty's Edge

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The best place to ask questions about 5E is on Mike Mearl's twitter account. He answers questions daily.

However, if Wizards has a plan but isn't ready to announce it he will simply say that. But you can always ask and he likely to respond.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Removed some posts and replies to them/quoting them about copyright/PDF derail. This kind of discussion really should probably into a different thread entirely. Also, please take note that our policy towards piracy and copyright infringement discussed on our messageboards is not just isolated to our products, but those published by other companies as well. Thanks!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you so much, Chris. It was definitely needed.


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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some posts and replies to them/quoting them about copyright/PDF derail. This kind of discussion really should probably into a different thread entirely. Also, please take note that our policy towards piracy and copyright infringement discussed on our messageboards is not just isolated to our products, but those published by other companies as well. Thanks!

For those playing along at home, here's the final casualty count:

Page 23 (1101-1150): 15 posts remaining, 70% casualty rate
Page 24 (1151-1200): 19 posts remaining, 62% casualty rate

Kudos to Chris for taking the more-or-less surgical route instead of bombing the whole discussion from orbit.


Arma virumque wrote:


Chris Lambertz wrote:


Removed some posts and replies to them/quoting them about copyright/PDF derail. This kind of discussion really should probably into a different thread entirely. Also, please take note that our policy towards piracy and copyright infringement discussed on our messageboards is not just isolated to our products, but those published by other companies as well. Thanks!

For those playing along at home, here's the final casualty count:

Page 23 (1101-1150): 15 posts remaining, 70% casualty rate
Page 24 (1151-1200): 19 posts remaining, 62% casualty rate

Kudos to Chris for taking the more-or-less surgical route instead of bombing the whole discussion from orbit.

*sigh* And I was so looking forward to a little orbital bombardment... just one nuke from orbit, after all, it's the only way to be sure :)

Seriously it is nice to have the rest of the discussion preserved. So, hey (and not so seriously)! It was a surgical strike from orbit!


The days of the middlemen are numbered, and have been for years. The FLCS and FLGS are going the way of the dodo, save those who have diversified into providing other services, like providing facilities to do your tabletop or card gaming. Let a comic retailer take all the Marvel or DC comics off the shelf. See how long they last. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I have little doubt that comic companies would only expand their business if they introduced a digital distribution method, just as gaming companies who have done the same have. There will always bee people who prefer the tactile sensation of having book-in-hand, and those people can benefit from direct distribution of more limited runs. Just imagine the savings in avoiding printing tens of thousands of physical books, shipping them to distribution centers, and then shipping them to comic shops and book stores. That sweet, sweet digital money is all gravy.

The tide will turn, sooner or later, and those who are tardy getting on the digital bandwagon are only harming themselves in both the long run and the short term. It's a sure thing that part of Paizo's success is their early adoption of digital distribution. People still buy the physical books, but many who would not have bought them buy PDFs instead, and some who have bought them buy PDFs as well.


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GoatToucher wrote:


The days of the middlemen are numbered, and have been for years. The FLCS and FLGS are going the way of the dodo, save those who have diversified into providing other services, like providing facilities to do your tabletop or card gaming. Let a comic retailer take all the Marvel or DC comics off the shelf. See how long they last. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I think you're overestimating the current importance of digital products. It's definitely increased in the last several years, but primarily to make niche products available which would not make it to print. The decline of the FLGS is more about the book trade carrying products that had previously been the sole territory of the hobby shop. Digital distribution may be (and I think is) the future, but the future is just that - a ways off. Imo, of course.

GoatToucher wrote:


I have little doubt that comic companies would only expand their business if they introduced a digital distribution method, just as gaming companies who have done the same have. There will always bee people who prefer the tactile sensation of having book-in-hand, and those people can benefit from direct distribution of more limited runs. Just imagine the savings in avoiding printing tens of thousands of physical books, shipping them to distribution centers, and then shipping them to comic shops and book stores. That sweet, sweet digital money is all gravy.

Maybe (even probably). But, PDFs have security issues, file size problems and bandwidth isn't free. Electronic distribution is more likely, in the near future, to enable more small publishers and niche products to find their way into the market (as it has for RPG products).

GoatToucher wrote:


The tide will turn, sooner or later, and those who are tardy getting on the digital bandwagon are only harming themselves in both the long run and the short term. It's a sure thing that part of Paizo's success is their early adoption of digital distribution. People still buy the physical books, but many who would not have bought them buy PDFs instead, and some who have bought them buy PDFs as well.

Subscriptions for physical products is Paizo's bread and butter as far as I know (APs being the largest). The addition of free PDFs for subscribers is a bonus to encourage subscriptions to their physical products and secure their revenue stream. People on the boards here find PDFs to be important. This message board is not really representative of the larger RPG market though. I'd venture to say most Paizo customers don't bother with the boards, even if they order from Paizo.

In the not so immediate future, you may be correct. Not in the next 5 years. Imo, of course.


GoatToucher wrote:
Let a comic retailer take all the Marvel or DC comics off the shelf. See how long they last. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

To be fair that was done by a couple big-box bookstores, who at the time could absorb a the hit better than a comic shop. Of course, nowadays they don't have that kind of wiggle room either.


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I think the folks in this thread are too caught up on PDFs. When you're talking about digital distribution, there are so many more options and many of them better than PDFs. The ebook format, for example, is better at publishing book-like material than them with even more device support. But even then, these are just two of many formats.

Have a read...

Beyond the device formats, since a myriad of devices have browsers in them, you can even do away with specific formats altogether. So, the point I'm trying to make, is to not preach PDFs as the One True Way and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. That's incredibly short sighted and ignorant of the technology and business landscapes.


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Buri wrote:

I think the folks in this thread are too caught up on PDFs. When you're talking about digital distribution, there are so many more options and many of them better than PDFs. The ebook format, for example, is better at publishing book-like material than them with even more device support. But even then, these are just two of many formats.

Have a read...

Beyond the device formats, since a myriad of devices have browsers in them, you can even do away with specific formats altogether. So, the point I'm trying to make, is to not preach PDFs as the One True Way and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. That's incredibly short sighted and ignorant of the technology and business landscapes.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the important part is the digital end. The specific format is negotiable, as long as the wait isn't too long.


The wait thing with digital can easily turn into an eating your cake and having it too request. Digital authoring takes time. Creating those tools take more time. Patience is necessary. Yes, Wizards could have released PDFs by now. They could have done it at release. However, Dungeonscape is doing much more than what PDFs can accomplish. Since I'm a firm believer that you can always do better, I'm excited to see what it delivers.


Buri wrote:
The wait thing with digital can easily turn into an eating your cake and having it too request. Digital authoring takes time. Creating those tools take more time. Patience is necessary. Yes, Wizards could have released PDFs by now. They could have done it at release. However, Dungeonscape is doing much more than what PDFs can accomplish. Since I'm a firm believer that you can always do better, I'm excited to see what it delivers.

Digital authoring with sufficient means, such as Wizards has, could have easily been accomplished already if that was their strategy. I know, I had a small publishing company and did print as well as digital books on Kindle and on Amazon.

I think they are waiting for something similar to DDI where they may make the core books available. I am not certain about that just a hunch. The DDI initiative for 4E was a stumble (in many respects) and I am sure they do not want to make that mistake again. THAT sort of digital offering would take considerably more time than a PDF or a Kindle or Amazon digital offering.

I prefer a physical book to a digital book so it does not matter to me. Though if a PDF is available I will on occasion purchase it for download it if I think it is worth it.


Buri wrote:

I think the folks in this thread are too caught up on PDFs. When you're talking about digital distribution, there are so many more options and many of them better than PDFs. The ebook format, for example, is better at publishing book-like material than them with even more device support. But even then, these are just two of many formats.

Have a read...

Beyond the device formats, since a myriad of devices have browsers in them, you can even do away with specific formats altogether. So, the point I'm trying to make, is to not preach PDFs as the One True Way and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. That's incredibly short sighted and ignorant of the technology and business landscapes.

That's certainly true. There are advantages to using a standard format though. There are also advantages to having it ready at release. It remains to be seen whether what Dungeonscape has to offer will make up for that.

Do we even have a release date for Dungeonscape yet? A price point? A beta to look at?


Dennis Harry wrote:
Digital authoring with sufficient means, such as Wizards has, could have easily been accomplished already if that was their strategy. I know, I had a small publishing company and did print as well as digital books on Kindle and on Amazon.

Did you also offer character building and campaign support? Dungeonscape is much more than a rules compendium.

Also, please, don't throw around 'easy' on custom made programming project. They're anything but.


Buri wrote:
Dennis Harry wrote:
Digital authoring with sufficient means, such as Wizards has, could have easily been accomplished already if that was their strategy. I know, I had a small publishing company and did print as well as digital books on Kindle and on Amazon.
Did you also offer character building and campaign support? Dungeonscape is much more than a rules compendium.

That's the thing. It's not clear that everyone wants those things as a package.

If Bob wants digital rulebooks, but prefers doing his character building with pen & paper (or a different tool), then that isn't an advantage of Dungeonscape for him.
If Jill wants a character builder and likes Dungeonscape's, but prefers physical copies of the books and doesn't care about digital ones, then again it's not an advantage for here.


Regardless of what they want, it's what Wizards is selling. That sounds cold, I know.


Buri wrote:
Regardless of what they want, it's what Wizards is selling. That sounds cold, I know.

And that's a business decision that people are criticizing.


It's too early to criticize because there's a lack of information which you can criticize. But, for all we know, the rules portion could be spearate from the character builder could be separate from the campaign management could be separate from a persistent subscription to errata could be separate from new book releases and so on. We just don't know. Wizards also can't promise exactly how the application will work because they're not building it. The building is being done by an outside firm.


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WotC's biggest problem with digital tools is that they always seem to try for one tool that does everything. The difficulty that creates is that they end up asking people to pay for everything when they really only want one part of it. Part of Paizo's success with their subscriptions is that they have multiple subscriptions that allow for the buyer to customize what they get. Same with HeroLab and selling each package individually, including within the systems themselves. Dungeonscape may offer something similar to that customization, as it isn't being made by WotC themselves, so there is reason for hope in that department, but it still won't be able to compete with the accessibility a basic PDF offers.

Not offering a PDF fearing that it will compete with Dungeonscape or the physical books is a bit far fetched. Each is a different products that appeal to different crowds. Offering only a PDF probably would not be a good digital strategy for WotC, but not offering PDFs at all is equally silly.


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Buri wrote:
It's too early to criticize because there's a lack of information which you can criticize. But, for all we know, the rules portion could be spearate from the character builder could be separate from the campaign management could be separate from a persistent subscription to errata could be separate from new book releases and so on. We just don't know. Wizards also can't promise exactly how the application will work because they're not building it. The building is being done by an outside firm.

Well, if all you want is digital books, you can criticize because it would have been easy to release those (as pdfs or whatever) at release time, but WotC chose the slower approach of an all-in-one tool.

That choice is keeping you from getting what you want for the indefinite future.


Buri wrote:
Dennis Harry wrote:
Digital authoring with sufficient means, such as Wizards has, could have easily been accomplished already if that was their strategy. I know, I had a small publishing company and did print as well as digital books on Kindle and on Amazon.

Did you also offer character building and campaign support? Dungeonscape is much more than a rules compendium.

Also, please, don't throw around 'easy' on custom made programming project. They're anything but.

If you read my entire post, you would see that I stated:

Dennis Harry wrote:
I think they are waiting for something similar to DDI where they may make the core books available. I am not certain about that just a hunch. The DDI initiative for 4E was a stumble (in many respects) and I am sure they do not want to make that mistake again. THAT sort of digital offering would take considerably more time than a PDF or a Kindle or Amazon digital offering.

So I acknowledge that a custom made programming project would be difficult to produce.

However, releasing the D&D Players Guide on Kindle, Amazon digital, or a PDF format would have been EASY, I know because I released books in this format on a shoestring budget. Wizards opted not to go this route, thus the criticism they are receiving from certain people.

Shadow Lodge

Buri wrote:
Regardless of what they want, it's what Wizards is selling. That sounds cold, I know.

I'd just like to point out, YET AGAIN, that there has been no official statement regarding PDFs from WotC. They might eventually put everything 5E out in PDF. Just because they don't have simultaneous PDF releases doesn't mean that PDFs will never come. People here are acting like they HAVE announced that they won't be offering any 5E PDFs. Some people are acting like they announced it while kicking a bunch of puppies to death.


Kthulhu wrote:
Buri wrote:
Regardless of what they want, it's what Wizards is selling. That sounds cold, I know.
I'd just like to point out, YET AGAIN, that there has been no official statement regarding PDFs from WotC. They might eventually put everything 5E out in PDF. Just because they don't have simultaneous PDF releases doesn't mean that PDFs will never come. People here are acting like they HAVE announced that they won't be offering any 5E PDFs. Some people are acting like they announced it while kicking a bunch of puppies to death.

So everyone just shut up and stop complaining. It's too early to criticize. Even if they're not giving you what you want and they haven't said they'll give you want you want and what they have said they'll give you isn't what you want, they might someday give it to you, so you shouldn't criticize.

Frankly, I do consider some of the criticism overblown. I'd like to see pdfs (or some other standard format) rather than a propriety piece of vaporware, but it's not a huge deal for me. I do find the defense overblown as well though.


Kthulhu, I think the fact that they have remained silent on this issue is why so many fans have been annoyed with Wizards.

I don't think that Wizards should feel compelled to release any book on PDF/digital format. Digital releases will capture market share of some people who simply will not purchase physical products any longer. It may be that Wizards prefer for the physical copy to run its course and sell as many copies as possible and that a digital copy may hurt sales of that physical product. It was certainly a concern I had (granted on a much smaller scale) when publishing.

My personal opinion is that (is it Dungeonscape I don't really know or care all that much as I won't be switching) their digital offering will be similar to DDI where electronic copies of core books may be available.

Ultimately, I think that the 5E release was a solid version of the game which I would enjoy playing. I fact, I have already pre-ordered the DMG.

Paizo's decision to release both physical and PDF/digital offerings at the same time could be a deciding factor (and it seems has been based on many posts in this thread) for consumers of RPG products to stick with Paizo instead of going to D&D 5E.


Buri wrote:

I think the folks in this thread are too caught up on PDFs. When you're talking about digital distribution, there are so many more options and many of them better than PDFs. The ebook format, for example, is better at publishing book-like material than them with even more device support. But even then, these are just two of many formats.

Have a read...

Beyond the device formats, since a myriad of devices have browsers in them, you can even do away with specific formats altogether. So, the point I'm trying to make, is to not preach PDFs as the One True Way and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. That's incredibly short sighted and ignorant of the technology and business landscapes.

I'm actually pretty knowledgeable about the various digital formats. As it turns out, I've spent the last ten years working in IT for one of the largest publishers in the world. But that's really beside the point. Any industry-standard data format which is NOT tied to their proprietary application would be fine.

However, if access relies on a continued sub, or on the continued existence of an authentication server, then their "digital offering" is a non-starter. Further, if they were willing to offer the content in an industry-standard format, why not make also make PDFs available, and let customers choose how they prefer to consume the content?

I'm sorry, but all indications are this this isn't about meeting the customer's needs, but rather about them maintaining absolute control, which, aside from being a fool's errand, always comes at the consumer's expense. Pass.

So for me, the answer to the OP's question is really quite simple: Wizards can release their books in a non-proprietary digital format (the standard for which, at least in the RPG market, is PDF), or they can find another customer.


Kthulhu wrote:
I'd just like to point out, YET AGAIN, that there has been no official statement regarding PDFs from WotC. They might eventually put everything 5E out in PDF. Just because they don't have simultaneous PDF releases doesn't mean that PDFs will never come. People here are acting like they HAVE announced that they won't be offering any 5E PDFs. Some people are acting like they announced it while kicking a bunch of puppies to death.

In a way, their refusal to answer the !@#$@# question is worse.

If and when they meet my needs by offering 5E in a non-proprietary digital format, I'll consider moving to 5E as my fantasy RPG of choice. Until then, I will not. No puppy-kicking hyperbole required.


We may not have an official announcement but that doesn't mean we are totally lacking all information. According to an interview:

ENWorld, August 26, 2014 wrote:

Yea I was going to ask about that [PDF sales]…

You know we haven’t announced anything official yet, but I’d be surprised if we released the PDF to be exactly as the book. Because I think that we’ll sit down and look at a PDF format of the book and say well what’s the best format that could take? It really does make good sense to have it sort of stripped down and in a utilitarian layout.

Because you know what? I’m actually just using this because I just want to get some rules at the table. Maybe I just want to be on a plane or just sitting around and want a quick reference that’s a quick read and just the information I want. So what does that do to the [PDF] design? We strip out a lot of the art and make it utilitarian. Or we break it up and actually the ebook version is actually three books, we’ve broken it up into three parts, and each topic is now a separate book. So maybe I’m playing a Wizard, and I’m just using the Basic D&D, but I want more spells… so I’m just wanting the spell chapters, so maybe I spend 5 bucks or 2 bucks just so I have that indexed or bookmarked and can quickly reference my spells. You know, what is the usefulness of that? Just as a bibliophile wants the whole book as a physical artifact, the digital only user, well, what is the best way for them to get access to the game.

So there is nothing concrete yet, but those are just some of the possibilities being discussed?

Yea exactly. Especially with the Dungeonscape Tool that Trapdoor [Technologies] is working on, and how they are going to approach things and what features they are going to have, could that kinda feed that need? Because we asked that it be iOS, Android, PC, so maybe you can just download the app and then buy the say Fighter packet and however we’re breaking it down, so are we really going to need to sell a separate PDF because actually the best way is to buy the tool, and the tool is also populating my database and I can make characters, then maybe I just don’t necessarily need the PDF. So a lot of it is just trying to figure out where things are with what they’re [Trapdoor Technologies] is doing, and we just don’t want to rush into something and then you’re like but I just bought the PDF and then the tools came out, and now I’m paying twice for the same content, that would make you upset. So it’s really just figuring out what is the best thing for the gaming audience at this point.

Nothing "official" but enough to infer that PDFs aren't on the immediate horizon. And for those groups who prefer the electronic format but want to get playing 5e as soon as possible, that's an inconvenience, so I can understand the grumble.


bugleyman wrote:
I'm actually pretty knowledgeable about the various digital formats. As it turns out, I've spent the last ten years working in IT for one of the largest publishers in the world.

Cool! I wrote software behind print personalization and print on demand solutions. Fun stuff.

bugleyman wrote:
But that's really beside the point. Any industry-standard data format which is NOT tied to their proprietary application would be fine.

I don't think that's where they're going. At best, from what they've described, is they'll keep a local copy of the print in XML form.

bugleyman wrote:
However, if access relies on a continued sub, or on the continued existence of an authentication server, then their "digital offering" is a non-starter.

I don't think so. There has been comments saying that it didn't need a persistent connection. That basically translates into one and done purchases at minimum if there's any kind of sanity involved.

bugleyman wrote:
I'm sorry, but all indications are this this isn't about meeting the customer's needs, but rather about them maintaining absolute control, which, aside from being a fool's errand, always comes at the consumer's expense. Pass.

They just don't seem to meet your needs. Nothing says they need to and nothing says you need to be their customer. However, as a classification of needs, I actually think their goal is to meet needs. You and Wizards simply don't coexist on the same road right now.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh, yeah. Almost forgot the actual reason for popping in for all of the whining,

Picked up the PHB Monday. Not too shabby. Kind of a "D&D Greatest Hits" feel, rules-wise. Could have done without the dragonborn and tieflings in core, but oh well. I guess it feels like 3e had 3e been a logical progression of 2e with skills and powers instead of some kind of D&D/Warhammer Fantasy/Rolemaster mash-up.

I like it so far, can't wait until the rest of the core is released.


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Buri wrote:


They just don't seem to meet your needs. Nothing says they need to and nothing says you need to be their customer. However, as a classification of needs, I actually think their goal is to meet needs. You and Wizards simply don't coexist on the same road right now.

THIS. Right here.

Exactly THIS.

I support companies that meet my needs and give me what I want. They make something I want? I give them my money. They dont make something I want? I find someone who does and give them money for their services and time.

I give Paizo my money.

I dont give WOTC any money.

Pretty clear cut.

Sovereign Court

DMG out yet?


Pan wrote:
DMG out yet?

November.


Buri wrote:
It's too early to criticize because there's a lack of information which you can criticize. But, for all we know, the rules portion could be spearate from the character builder could be separate from the campaign management could be separate from a persistent subscription to errata could be separate from new book releases and so on. We just don't know. Wizards also can't promise exactly how the application will work because they're not building it. The building is being done by an outside firm.

Two things...

1) Yes, I can criticize. It is entirely within my right to do so. When criticizing it is important to do so with all available information, to ignore available information is to criticize in an inappropriate manner. As a consumer, I am entirely within my rights to criticize though. As a consumer within a country that allows free speech, I'm entirely entitled to share that criticism as well.

2) Wizards is the only party to blame for incomplete information. If they don't release information, I can only judge/criticize based on what they have released. To say that I should withhold judgement because at some future date they MIGHT release more information is hogwash.

I get that you disagree with my point of view and that's okay. My point of view is inherently subjective because it is talking about my requirements for a product. I want an easily transferable digital version that isn't reliant on proprietary software, nor requires an internet connection to view. I don't think that's a lot to ask, considering I own at least 50 other games that meet those requirements, all of which have been obtained legally (not all were purchased, because some where free).

It's not brave new territory. It's ground that has been tread hundreds of times. It's been tread by companies that are very successful, such as Paizo.


Buri wrote:

I think the folks in this thread are too caught up on PDFs. When you're talking about digital distribution, there are so many more options and many of them better than PDFs. The ebook format, for example, is better at publishing book-like material than them with even more device support. But even then, these are just two of many formats.

Have a read...

Beyond the device formats, since a myriad of devices have browsers in them, you can even do away with specific formats altogether. So, the point I'm trying to make, is to not preach PDFs as the One True Way and anyone who doesn't do it is doomed. That's incredibly short sighted and ignorant of the technology and business landscapes.

Both .epub and .azw have positive points. Both are certainly fine for casual users. However, for a user who wants to actually make use of the the document, as opposed to just read it, there is a significant adventage to PDF.

Also both formats lack the near ubiquity of PDF.

As for dungeonscape, I'll believe in its existance when it turns up. WotC do not have a great track record with Major IT projects.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed some posts and their replies. Dial back on the unnecessary name-calling and hyperbole.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

Dennis Harry wrote:
However, releasing the D&D Players Guide on Kindle, Amazon digital, or a PDF format would have been EASY, I know because I released books in this format on a shoestring budget. Wizards opted not to go this route, thus the criticism they are receiving from certain people.

I would go so far as to call it "insanely easy" because PDFs are the format most printers require from publishers to print the books in the first place. You change the output to make the file size smaller, bookmark, watermark it (if you want), and you've got a Web PDF from the same file you exported your Print PDFs from.


Well the last Pathfinder book I bought was Ultimate Campaigns on PDF over a year ago now.With no FLGS it is hard ot get a hold of PF physical copies and I do not like buying stuff sight unseen after 4E.

We ar etrying 5E out, ioit is a lot of fun, IIDK if we will be buying a lot of it as opposed to core books and maybe some adventures.

Dark Archive

Stefan Hill wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Ok, I'm going to take the plunge. When I can make my way to the FLGS I'm picking up the PHB. I like what I'm hearing, I liked most of what I saw in the Basic free PDFs, so Hasbro gets a second chance.

Where houstonderek goes others will follow :)

Not I; 5E is not a Chelaxian game, and not fiendish enough, so I refuse to play it! ;)


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I am willing to try 5th edition, the system has some good selling points for me:

- it runs smoother and is less complicated, but still captures the feeling of playing D&D, speeding up combat significantly despite taking more rounds.

- the pcs are less superhero-like and low cr creatures have a better spread in which they can be used in the game.

- stacking effects have been diminished greatly by the advantage/disadvantage system and greatly diminished buffing potential.

- spellcasters are not as overpowering as in 3.x/pathfinder/AD&D edition but are nice to play since spells are not lost from memory after they are cast and have an innate augmentation system built in many spells.

- They have an archetype-like system built into every class which has the potential for much variety.

- More emphasis on roleplaying, though combat is still the core of the system it's actually getting some attention and has a role in character development.

- Multi-classing spellcasters offers some interesting options, it seems quite an elegant solution.

- preparation time for GM went don significantly with less complex characters and monsters.

- Move and full attack, or move attack and move attack is an option

Less appealing :

- Multi-class is a bit more complicated than most parts of the system and needs to be read properly first once or twice.

- I feel the system is still a bit wonky in some parts or no thoughts through well enough, I dont expect to not houserule anything though.

- It needs some adjusting, it feels simple and a bit more dumbed down in some regards at first glance. Until you realize that having rules for everything doesnt add to realism or play experience and is actually quite liberating. (AC rules, skill system)

- I don't feel the involvement with the game as much as I do at paizo, the developers feel much more approachable. Though they do try their 'sagely advice' to solve game issues D&DN falls short on that for the moment.


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Have you ever run a game set in an above ground ruin? With partial walls about three feet high, you know you describe this to the players and they are like, "meh, okay, so put the grid down and let's fight the monsters," right?

So last weekend I ran an off the cuff improvised 5e game for two players, playing a Bard (Charlatan) and a Wizard (Hermit)and these two fellows were attacked by grindylows in a watery ruin. A couple of the grindylows scrambled up the ruined wall and attacked the characters with spears from an elevated position.

What happened next warmed my aging heart. The players started asking specific questions about the walls, where they were broken, crumbling, how they could get up on the walls and get in on that advantage nonsense. Having this new mechanic, brought these players into the game in ways that Pathfinder never did (and they both are veteran Pathfinder players)

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Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 4th Edition / Will you be switching to D&D Next when it comes out or will you stay with Pathfinder? All Messageboards

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