I think they have a satisfactory amount for one book. Every class has at least two paths to go down, many have three. This will certainly get expanded as the edition ages. Barbarians (for example) will have more totems for the totem warrior option, more paths, there will be more races, etc. For one book, out the gate it's good- simple while being complex enough to satisify. Multiclassing is available, and simple to use. I really like this edition as well, as it flattens out some of the bloat from 3.5/Pathfinder. No infinitely spamming spell effects and warriors who can fight and move, no magic item Christmas tree... some very good stuff here...The choices available during advancement.
1. They can be rare
2. Options are very limited
3. The impact of some opportunities for choices is minimalEssentially, it feels like all the options for a character are made at level 1 (or creation). Once you make those decisions, things change, but you don't get to decide how or what changes. The few opportunities do not seem satisfying IMO.
The way Feats have been beefed up in 5e it's almost like "taking a level" in something, and can really redefine a character. For instance, a lot of combat feats give proficiency in a weapon. Along with a couple of special abilities using it. Not unlike taking a level in fighter.
I already have the PHB, but for some (as noted above) are looking for an online offering (is Dungeonscape that solution? TBD). I think you are so quick to defend that you are completely missing what is being discussed. Competing products have these type of offerings, so it is a legitimate interim critique until the situation changes.
You assume it will change. At this point, though, especially on this message board, it's beating a dead horse. I defend only so far as to point out the situation, but do not say I miss the point just because I don't pander to it.
I purposely do not collect physical books for RPGs any more. So yeah, I will never buy the physical copy, because I don't do that any more. If they want to sell it to me, they need to offer a digital version.
I still play the game, other people have the book at the table. *Shrug*
That sounds like a great compromise to me. As long as it works for you and you have fun then that's awesome.
Excluding me as a customer is a compromise?
I'm not sore about it. It just seems silly to try to even rationalize at this stage.
Excluding me as a customer is a compromise?
I'm not sore about it. It just seems silly to try to even rationalize at this stage.
Not getting money from you is just part of WotC's brilliant plan. :P
Not getting money from you is just part of WotC's brilliant plan. :PExcluding me as a customer is a compromise?
I'm not sore about it. It just seems silly to try to even rationalize at this stage.
Brilliant.
You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means ;)
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You assume it will change. At this point, though, especially on this message board, it's beating a dead horse. I defend only so far as to point out the situation, but do not say I miss the point just because I don't pander to it.
I assume it will change because there is going to be a product that is supposed to allow some form of portable document. If you look through my post carefully, you'll even see a name reference. I bought the 5e books and will be playing it. While there was an NDA during the playtests, at no time did I sign any further agreement banning any criticism of the released product, which is a good thing since there is no perfect rules system in existence.
For those who do not wish to see anything critiquing 5e, I would suggest skipping any threads discussing 5e or those where people comment on whether they are moving to 5e or not. If you think a dead horse is being beaten, then choose to avoid it.
I assume it will change because there is going to be a product that is supposed to allow some form of portable document. If you look through my post carefully, you'll even see a name reference. I bought the 5e books and will be playing it. While there was an NDA during the playtests, at no time did I sign any further agreement banning any criticism of the released product, which is a good thing since there is no perfect rules system in existence.
Yes, there will be but people will be sadly mistaken if they think it will be like Paizo's PDF offering. It will be more expensive.
Also, as unlikely as it is to happen in a public play test, the nature of an NDA prevents you from discussing it entirely as talking about it at all with those outside of recognized channels is giving away details about it. Being a game makes people take the NDA generally less seriously but they're still agreements worded not much differently than those I sign to work in the banking industry. It'd be a cold day in hell where I can publicly criticize my employer's internal processes.
For those who do not wish to see anything critiquing 5e, I would suggest skipping any threads discussing 5e or those where people comment on whether they are moving to 5e or not. If you think a dead horse is being beaten, then choose to avoid it.
You can address me directly. I also didn't say I didn't want to see critiques. Burn the strawmen.
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I was speaking of the NDA for the Next - are you speaking of an NDA for the Dungeonscape product? My point was the Next playtests are over, and we have a finished product that can be critiqued.
A good way to show that you accept critiques would be accept people's legitimate criticism of the rules instead of suggesting alternatives that don't meet their needs. A stripped-down PDF offered for free is great for allowing new players to look at the game. The options are limited in the document, but it's great that it's available. It's just not a credible substitute for the PHB. It just doesn't seem like you are taking the time to understand what the critique is, and this is why you thing the free PDF or borrow someone's book at the table is an acceptable substitute.
As far as wanting or not wanting to see critiques, it's up to every one of us to be fair-minded and not auto-attack or auto-defend something and fall into the edition warring trap.
So in terms of critiques, why don't you share some of your critiques of 5e to keep the discussion moving?
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A good way to show that you accept critiques would be accept people's legitimate criticism of the rules instead of suggesting alternatives that don't meet their needs.
So, either pander to their complaints or shut up and don't talk about alterntives? That's some notion of entitlement.
A stripped-down PDF offered for free is great for allowing new players to look at the game. The options are limited in the document, but it's great that it's available. It's just not a credible substitute for the PHB.
To you maybe. If you want to roll a character and play with the mechanics of 5th, it's wholly a good substitute. Now, if you want play a race or class not in the PDF, then save up your money and buy the PHB or be content with your choices. It's pretty straightforward.
It just doesn't seem like you are taking the time to understand what the critique is, and this is why you thing the free PDF or borrow someone's book at the table is an acceptable substitute.
As I said, just because I don't share your view and feed into it doesn't mean I don't understand. I shouldn't be compelled to do so either. Be an adult and buy the book or move to a different product. If you're not adult then that's between you and your parents.
It IS an acceptable substitute to just play with the free PDF. Why? Because everything you need to run a 5th edition game is in it.
As far as wanting or not wanting to see critiques, it's up to every one of us to be fair-minded and not auto-attack or auto-defend something and fall into the edition warring trap.
Yay, another strawman. I'm doing no edition warring.
So in terms of critiques, why don't you share some of your critiques of 5e to keep the discussion moving?
This thread was never one about critiques. This side discussion is a quintessential hijack. Why don't you start your own thread?
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You don't have to pander to anyone's complaints, just to try and understand what their POV is and then discuss it accordingly.
I'd suggest downloading the free PDF and familiarizing yourself with what is in it and what is not. Someone not playing one of the big four classes is not going to find the free PDF a good substitute. For example, how does the free PDF help someone playing a tiefling warlock?
Someone playing PF, can purchase the core rulebook PDF or even go to d20pfsrd.com and be able to have electronic rules at their disposal. The critique is that these options are not equivalent (at this point of time, at least). You seem to suggest that the free PDF or book borrowing mitigates this critique, but you've told that they do not find that to be the case. You could almost say that you may be wanting them to "pander" to your complaints about their criticism?
The critiques have to do with the OP about whether people switching or not switching to 5e? Since nowhere was it asked to just reply with yes/no answers, it is to be expected that people are going to elaborate on their rationale. Just go to the first page of this thread and see for your self. Nothing suddenly changed after the post count hit 1,000+.
Maybe it's time for you to agree to disagree? Your tone suggests that you may be getting frustrated, and perhaps moving on would be in everyone's best interest.
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ANYHOW, to get back on to the thread (and off the copyright debate), what I've read of 5th I'm still meh. I think that 4th Ed just lost me on D&D, and Paizo picked me up on Pathfinder.