Will you be switching to D&D Next when it comes out or will you stay with Pathfinder?


4th Edition

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Bill Dunn wrote:
Terquem wrote:
anyone that is put off by the rendition of an upright walking, bipedal, human sized, Dragon headed, winged (or not), fire breathing, sentient, heroic, weapon wielding, five fingered (with opposable thumb), fantasy character, because it has breasts, is being, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous
Oh, I don't think so. I can easily see a legitimate criticism against the need to put breasts on a lizard woman to pander to juvenile male desires.

We're talking about a fantasy game race. The word "need" doesn't enter into anything.

This is just a case of certain people having just enough suspension of disbelief to allow for owlbears and beholders, but not enough to allow for breasts on something with scales.


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Scott Betts wrote:

We're talking about a fantasy game race. The word "need" doesn't enter into anything.

This is just a case of certain people having just enough suspension of disbelief to allow for owlbears and beholders, but not enough to allow for breasts on something with scales.

Actually, it seems to have more to do with inferred motive than it does suspension of disbelief. Though I think we've milked this topic for all it is worth...


bugleyman wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:

We're talking about a fantasy game race. The word "need" doesn't enter into anything.

This is just a case of certain people having just enough suspension of disbelief to allow for owlbears and beholders, but not enough to allow for breasts on something with scales.

Actually, it seems to have more to do with inferred motive than it does suspension of disbelief. Though I think we've milked this topic for all it is worth...

Yes, time to move on

.....Any more puns like that and it's Banhammer time


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:

We're talking about a fantasy game race. The word "need" doesn't enter into anything.

This is just a case of certain people having just enough suspension of disbelief to allow for owlbears and beholders, but not enough to allow for breasts on something with scales.

Actually, it seems to have more to do with inferred motive than it does suspension of disbelief. Though I think we've milked this topic for all it is worth...

Was that a pun you just made? Because it did give me a chuckle.

And yeah, probably time to move on from this topic.


Why you draggin' us away from this topic???


Just make sure you don't make two puns in the same sentence, otherwise you have sentenced us to deal with....Pun-Pun!


Sissyl wrote:
Why you draggin' us away from this topic???

The rage all seems a tad nerdy. Dave the dragonborn shouldn't get angry over what the female dragonborn do or don't lack. Tate the tiefling is more interested in whether he gets a spikey tail or not


Tieflings have a talent for getting some tail, don't they?

Sovereign Court

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Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.


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I probably won't buy anything with the WotC logo either, until they go back to 4e's 'retro' design goals for 17th edition. :D


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Hama wrote:
Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.

You do understand that the leadership responsible for 4E (which I assume is the source of your vehement dislike) is gone, right? It seems silly to blacklist an entire company for the actions of a few, especially when those responsible are no longer there...


At least he's admitting that it is really all about the logo. The saying used to be "don't judge a book by its cover." Now, a few people have decided judging a book's cover is too much, and insist on judging only a tiny portion of the cover.


The company put those people there. The company has put the next batch of designers there too. It would of course be different if the old bunch were laid off because WotC were unhappy with what they did with 4th edition, but as far as anyone can tell, they were simply laid off because christmas.


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Sissyl wrote:
The company put those people there. The company has put the next batch of designers there too. It would of course be different if the old bunch were laid off because WotC were unhappy with what they did with 4th edition, but as far as anyone can tell, they were simply laid off because christmas.

I'd strongly disagree...I got the distinct impression that Bill Slavicsek was shown the door in the wake of 4E's failure to meet expectations. I certainly don't think they planned on 4E being replaced this quickly. But I can't prove that, of course.

My point remains: Boycotting WotC over 4E (if that is in fact what is happening here) seems like boycotting Ford because you didn't like the 2008 F150. People certainly do that sort of thing -- I'm just not sure how rational it is.

Then again, GRAWR at WotC is pretty commonplace here.


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i've moved on, pathfinder works for us, i can't afford 2 RPGs at the moment so i'll stick with what i have and continue investing in that one:)

nothing against WotC but i really did dislike 4th edition a lot, but on the bright side thats what sent me out exploring Pathfinder:)


Will give Next a try, but probably stick with Pathfinder.


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I disliked 4e as much as the next man

dnd next feels so much better for me.....too old to be counting squares and pushing bits plastic about


thenovalord wrote:

I disliked 4e as much as the next man

dnd next feels so much better for me.....too old to be counting squares and pushing bits plastic about

Yeah, I prefer metal minis, too. :P


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thenovalord wrote:
dnd next feels so much better for me.....too old to be counting squares and pushing bits plastic about

I'm looking forward to something that can easily be played without minis -- which certainly wasn't the case with 4E (or 3.5E or Pathfinder, for that matter).


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Hitdice wrote:
thenovalord wrote:

I disliked 4e as much as the next man

dnd next feels so much better for me.....too old to be counting squares and pushing bits plastic about

Yeah, I prefer metal minis, too. :P

I Like minis, just not to play chess with


The goblin art from the starter mod is ace


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Hama wrote:
Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Sovereign Court

Sebastrd wrote:
Hama wrote:
Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Hello there! I see you have met Darth Hama :)

I can understand a major lack of social capital when it comes to WOTC. The whole "never ever buy something from them again" seems a bit extreme. Companies can change folks. I think its prudent to never say never.

Liberty's Edge

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Scott Betts wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Terquem wrote:
anyone that is put off by the rendition of an upright walking, bipedal, human sized, Dragon headed, winged (or not), fire breathing, sentient, heroic, weapon wielding, five fingered (with opposable thumb), fantasy character, because it has breasts, is being, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous
Oh, I don't think so. I can easily see a legitimate criticism against the need to put breasts on a lizard woman to pander to juvenile male desires.

We're talking about a fantasy game race. The word "need" doesn't enter into anything.

This is just a case of certain people having just enough suspension of disbelief to allow for owlbears and beholders, but not enough to allow for breasts on something with scales.

As when I started playing D&D so I was literally a juvenile male I appreciated breasts on basically anything. That and chainmail bikinis.

Elmore and Parkinson are my childhood D&D artist heroes.

Liberty's Edge

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Pan wrote:
Sebastrd wrote:
Hama wrote:
Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Hello there! I see you have met Darth Hama :)

I can understand a major lack of social capital when it comes to WOTC. The whole "never ever buy something from them again" seems a bit extreme. Companies can change folks. I think its prudent to never say never.

Agreed. Anyone buying Hugo Boss or Volkswagen? If we can get over WWI and WWII I would think that WotC crimes against humanity can be safely swept under the rug.


Where the Realms are concerned, I'm reading and hearing a lot of promising things from the Greenwood/Salvatore camp. It remains to be seen if the baggage of 4E Realms can be carried and still produce something worthwhile, but the fact that the company is at least willing to listen to the creator this time around is nice.

They're also heralding this as the last Realms Shattering Event. We'll see how long that lasts.

As to 5E itself, most of what I'm seeing sounds and looks promising. I went ahead and ordered a copy of the Starter Set. Assuming they provide a Classic Vancian in one of the core books to replace the Neo-Vancian thing they're running, I'll be set. Even if not, it's probably not a hard thing to houserule in that direction.

Sovereign Court

I read the playtest documents. So did all the people whom I play with.
Definetly not our cup of tea. Won't be touching it.
The only thing with the Wizards logo I might be willing to own is Betrayal on the house on the hill.
I also will never buy anything connected with Bill Slaviscek ever again.

Liberty's Edge

captain yesterday wrote:
i've moved on, pathfinder works for us, i can't afford 2 RPGs at the moment so i'll stick with what i have and continue investing in that one:)

If you can't afford the time, that is fair enough. But if you're talking about finances, then that shouldn't stop you playing D&D 5e as the Basic Game will be available for free.


bugleyman wrote:
Hama wrote:
Won't buy, won't play. I will never, ever again touch anything with wizards of the coast logo.
You do understand that the leadership responsible for 4E (which I assume is the source of your vehement dislike) is gone, right? It seems silly to blacklist an entire company for the actions of a few, especially when those responsible are no longer there...

Actually that's the problem.

From my perspective, WotC lacks a Leader. There is no clear vision there. They need a Lisa or a Peter Adkison.

WotC has a revolving door policy on personell, people come and go at an almost comical rate. I think it's partly bean counter driven and likely the people themselves (it's nice to have WotC on your resume but it's likely sucks to work there). This is a lack of Vision and Leadership. They have great people on Staff. Mearls, Rich Baker, Jesse Decker, Steve Shoebert but I never know if those people are there at any given time. Plus they got sloppy at the end of 3.5. Ruins of Undermountain should have been aborted, the crunch wasn't even proofread. Heck they'd reprint an old feat with a different name and call it new content.

Bleh.


As a matter of fact, the final products of each edition are often quite interesting. Perhaps it's because they don't need to fit in with anything later. The end of 2nd resulted in The Apocalypse stone, Warriors of Heaven, a Guide to Hell, Vortex of Madness and Die, Vecna, die!, of which the first four are fresh, original and interesting. D,V,d! can die in a fire, though.

The end of 3rd gave us Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, the Expedition to books, Grand history of the Realms. Personally, I thought these were decent or better. Even if the crunch may have been untested on occasion. :-)


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Kagehiro wrote:
They're also heralding this as the last Realms Shattering Event. We'll see how long that lasts.

lol


Sissyl wrote:

As a matter of fact, the final products of each edition are often quite interesting. Perhaps it's because they don't need to fit in with anything later. The end of 2nd resulted in The Apocalypse stone, Warriors of Heaven, a Guide to Hell, Vortex of Madness and Die, Vecna, die!, of which the first four are fresh, original and interesting. D,V,d! can die in a fire, though.

The end of 3rd gave us Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, the Expedition to books, Grand history of the Realms. Personally, I thought these were decent or better. Even if the crunch may have been untested on occasion. :-)

Splats certainly do get more and more experimental as each edition ages. The end of 2e saw the (in)famous Skills & Powers, which turns character creation into a point-buy system; the tail end of 3e gave us things like the Tome of Magic and the Tome of Battle; and the last years of 4e became a compromise between 4e philosophies and traditional D&D aesthetics.

And it seems to me that these later experimental books are usually popular with 1) players who want more goodies and 2) DMs who find certain areas of the edition lacking, for whatever reason. Naturally, they tend to be unpopular with DMs who think that the edition's core and 'classic' options are just fine. I for example love 3e's ToM and ToB, but have no use for 4e's 'essentials' character options. (Ye gods, I hate that misnomer!)


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

As a matter of fact, the final products of each edition are often quite interesting. Perhaps it's because they don't need to fit in with anything later. The end of 2nd resulted in The Apocalypse stone, Warriors of Heaven, a Guide to Hell, Vortex of Madness and Die, Vecna, die!, of which the first four are fresh, original and interesting. D,V,d! can die in a fire, though.

The end of 3rd gave us Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, the Expedition to books, Grand history of the Realms. Personally, I thought these were decent or better. Even if the crunch may have been untested on occasion. :-)

Splats certainly do get more and more experimental as each edition ages. The end of 2e saw the (in)famous Skills & Powers, which turns character creation into a point-buy system; the tail end of 3e gave us things like the Tome of Magic and the Tome of Battle; and the last years of 4e became a compromise between 4e philosophies and traditional D&D aesthetics.

And it seems to me that these later experimental books are usually popular with 1) players who want more goodies and 2) DMs who find certain areas of the edition lacking, for whatever reason. Naturally, they tend to be unpopular with DMs who think that the edition's core and 'classic' options are just fine. I for example love 3e's ToM and ToB, but have no use for 4e's 'essentials' character options. (Ye gods, I hate that misnomer!)

And those experimental books seem to foreshadow the next edition.

While not actually point buy, 3.x is far closer than second, with skills & feats and the new multiclassing. Definitely more "build your own character" than "pick a class".
Tome of battle added magic like powers for mundanes, 4th took that even farther, giving everyone the same kinds of powers.
If Essentials aimed for more traditional D&D aesthetics, that's in full force in Next.

Dark Archive

Kagehiro wrote:

They're also heralding this as the last Realms Shattering Event. We'll see how long that lasts.

It'll be the last shattering event until the next one ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Bill Dunn wrote:
Terquem wrote:
anyone that is put off by the rendition of an upright walking, bipedal, human sized, Dragon headed, winged (or not), fire breathing, sentient, heroic, weapon wielding, five fingered (with opposable thumb), fantasy character, because it has br, is being, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous
Oh, I don't think so. I can easily see a legitimate criticism against the need to put br on a lizard woman to pander to juvenile male desires.

(Edited words not to flag at work :P)

Just to add another perspective to this since I notice some guys trying too hard to knock guys for putting a chest on everything that moves (and I'm not saying this wasn't the case).

But my wife is not small up top. None of the characters she creates are small up top. The outfits she puts them in, some of them you might think "A guy made that because they're lonely". But that's actually what SHE likes to play as a girl. And even if its a dragonborn or some half dragon thing, she LIKES making her characters like her. Not a juvenile. Not a man. And not a desire in the sense quoted.

Of course I won't say you're wrong either since maybe they are pandering BUT keep an open mind that people are individuals and that every person has their own likes and dislikes and that there are women who like these things.

That is all.


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Jason Beardsley wrote:
Kagehiro wrote:

They're also heralding this as the last Realms Shattering Event. We'll see how long that lasts.

It'll be the last shattering event until the next one ;)

I heard they're going to call them "Realms fragmenting" from now on, so technically . . . :P

Edit @ Misery: Y'know, it's not that I don't enjoy looking at breasts (I do!), it's that TheJeff came up with two ideas about female dragonborn in ten minutes that were better than anything I saw from WotC*, and they're the professionals. But then, I'm also one of those annoying people who reacted to the line in Avatar about hybrid Navi and human DNA with, "So the big blue aliens from a planet with a toxic atmosphere have DNA? That's some fricken coincidence!" As i said above, alien DNA, or breasts on female lizard-ish races don't bother me in and of themselves, but it's kind of the job of the creative types to explain stuff like that.

*Full disclosure, I didn't buy anything after the first three, core books of 4e, so they may have have some next level ecology articles that I missed.


DigitalMage wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
i've moved on, pathfinder works for us, i can't afford 2 RPGs at the moment so i'll stick with what i have and continue investing in that one:)
If you can't afford the time, that is fair enough. But if you're talking about finances, then that shouldn't stop you playing D&D 5e as the Basic Game will be available for free.

a little from column A, partially B, i'm not confident their will be enough in the basic set to entertain for more then a weekend or two, besides thats a weekend we could be playing any number of infinite APs or other adventures, their is still too much of Pathfinder for us to discover to waste the time with DnD Next (or whatever they're calling it)

like i said, i've moved on, WotC has nothing i want right now:)


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Hitdice wrote:
Jason Beardsley wrote:
Kagehiro wrote:

They're also heralding this as the last Realms Shattering Event. We'll see how long that lasts.

It'll be the last shattering event until the next one ;)
I heard they're going to call them "Realms fragmenting" from now on, so technically . . . :P

they should call it "Realms, throwing it on the ground in a field and beating the s~~~ out of it with hammers and baseball bats" because thats essentially what they did with 4th edition:D

Dark Archive

Hama wrote:

I read the playtest documents. So did all the people whom I play with.

Definetly not our cup of tea. Won't be touching it.
The only thing with the Wizards logo I might be willing to own is Betrayal on the house on the hill.
I also will never buy anything connected with Bill Slaviscek ever again.

As is your right, and your opinion, and I respect that.

I did play a couple games of 4e, and I just wasn't interested in that particular system. I've got many to choose from, and I have favourites (Unisystem and AGE are my favourite systems, atm).

In the end, it's just a game, and I can't be bothered to be worked up too much about it. Especially with my high blood pressure, due to being worked up constantly about other things.

But, I wish you the best with whatever game you stick with or try out! Pathfinder, Legend, Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Dragon AGE, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Witchcraft, Dark Heresy, and Robotech (Palladium, I think) are all games I've played and enjoyed greatly. If you haven't had the opportunity to play any of these, and are looking to play a new game, give one of those a shot. =)


bugleyman wrote:
My point remains: Boycotting WotC over 4E (if that is in fact what is happening here) seems like boycotting Ford because you didn't like the 2008 F150. People certainly do that sort of thing -- I'm just not sure how rational it is.

If we're going to use silly analogies to try to declare things being irrational, let's at least attempt to get a little bit closer:

It would be more like "boycotting" Ford because you didn't like a single vehicle from the company between 2008 and 2013. The 2008 Ford F150 (the 2008 Monster Manual?) is just one drop in the bucket.

You may be surprised then, it seems, that people have dropped companies (including car manufacturers) for a lot less. I also doubt anyone here is in a position to determine if that's "rational" or not.


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Arnwyn wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
My point remains: Boycotting WotC over 4E (if that is in fact what is happening here) seems like boycotting Ford because you didn't like the 2008 F150. People certainly do that sort of thing -- I'm just not sure how rational it is.

If we're going to use silly analogies to try to declare things being irrational, let's at least attempt to get a little bit closer:

It would be more like "boycotting" Ford because you didn't like a single vehicle from the company between 2008 and 2013. The 2008 Ford F150 (the 2008 Monster Manual?) is just one drop in the bucket.

You may be surprised then, it seems, that people have dropped companies (including car manufacturers) for a lot less. I also doubt anyone here is in a position to determine if that's "rational" or not.

Why would you expect me to be surprised? I made the same point in the post you quoted. And yes, deciding you will never, ever buy something from a company from now until the end of time because you don't like some of their past products is irrational. But certainly one has that choice. And as they say, haters gonna hate.


thejeff wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

As a matter of fact, the final products of each edition are often quite interesting. Perhaps it's because they don't need to fit in with anything later. The end of 2nd resulted in The Apocalypse stone, Warriors of Heaven, a Guide to Hell, Vortex of Madness and Die, Vecna, die!, of which the first four are fresh, original and interesting. D,V,d! can die in a fire, though.

The end of 3rd gave us Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, the Expedition to books, Grand history of the Realms. Personally, I thought these were decent or better. Even if the crunch may have been untested on occasion. :-)

Splats certainly do get more and more experimental as each edition ages. The end of 2e saw the (in)famous Skills & Powers, which turns character creation into a point-buy system; the tail end of 3e gave us things like the Tome of Magic and the Tome of Battle; and the last years of 4e became a compromise between 4e philosophies and traditional D&D aesthetics.

And it seems to me that these later experimental books are usually popular with 1) players who want more goodies and 2) DMs who find certain areas of the edition lacking, for whatever reason. Naturally, they tend to be unpopular with DMs who think that the edition's core and 'classic' options are just fine. I for example love 3e's ToM and ToB, but have no use for 4e's 'essentials' character options. (Ye gods, I hate that misnomer!)

And those experimental books seem to foreshadow the next edition.

While not actually point buy, 3.x is far closer than second, with skills & feats and the new multiclassing. Definitely more "build your own character" than "pick a class".
Tome of battle added magic like powers for mundanes, 4th took that even farther, giving everyone the same kinds of powers.
If Essentials aimed for more traditional D&D aesthetics, that's in full force in Next.

Hm, I wonder if one could accurately predict when (any given) next edition will come, what it'll be like, and who will like it based on the current splatbook 'maturity' of whatever the current edition is...?


Yeah, sure you can. If a splatbook is for an edition where the splatbooks have matured for six years, the next edition is around the corner. Soon in will be five.


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thenovalord wrote:
Dave the dragonborn shouldn't get angry over what the female dragonborn do or don't lack. Tate the tiefling is more interested in whether he gets a spikey tail or not

Oh man. I spent at least two minutes coming up with an awesome* breast related pun and no one spotted it. Or everyone ignored it. Please someone humour me!

*ok, wasn't that awesome if no one saw it!


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thenovalord wrote:
thenovalord wrote:
Dave the dragonborn shouldn't get angry over what the female dragonborn do or don't lack. Tate the tiefling is more interested in whether he gets a spikey tail or not

Oh man. I spent at least two minutes coming up with an awesome* breast related pun and no one spotted it. Or everyone ignored it. Please someone humour me!

*ok, wasn't that awesome if no one saw it!

lack (lactate)?


bugleyman wrote:
thenovalord wrote:
thenovalord wrote:
Dave the dragonborn shouldn't get angry over what the female dragonborn do or don't lack. Tate the tiefling is more interested in whether he gets a spikey tail or not

Oh man. I spent at least two minutes coming up with an awesome* breast related pun and no one spotted it. Or everyone ignored it. Please someone humour me!

*ok, wasn't that awesome if no one saw it!

lack (lactate)?

Lack. Tate........yeah, you!!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thenovalord wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
thenovalord wrote:
thenovalord wrote:
Dave the dragonborn shouldn't get angry over what the female dragonborn do or don't lack. Tate the tiefling is more interested in whether he gets a spikey tail or not

Oh man. I spent at least two minutes coming up with an awesome* breast related pun and no one spotted it. Or everyone ignored it. Please someone humour me!

*ok, wasn't that awesome if no one saw it!

lack (lactate)?

Lack. Tate........yeah, you!!

Yeah, A for effort, but I think the period creates a conceptual divider that's hard to get past (it did for me, at least). Or maybe you just need a better audience. Sorry!


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Yeah. Ever since Paizo decided they didn't like riddles in mods that couldn't be solved without a skill check gamers minds have gone soft!!

Sovereign Court

Well, what's the point of giving players riddles?
Isn't that kinda metagame?

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