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If I wasn't so busy with other things I'd volunteer.
Oh, Tangent101 and Captain Yesterday would just make me write everything up in a campaign journal and I wouldn't have time to actually play, anyway.
we could always press-gang my wife into writing it up, she's a writer:) she is also an artist so she could do sketches maybe:)
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I want to play too! :D
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Here's one solution that has been bandied about: Limit the number of buffs on a character to his or her charisma modifier, with a minimum of one. I think there were conditions on that (like allowing bardic song in addition) but really, you could just limit it to Charisma modifier for everything.
It would have a huge impact on the game. And stop having Charisma as a dump stat!
This is an excellent solution. It's more or less the same system I suggested for Pathfinder in the early days, but it ended up going onto the cutting room floor for various reasons. But the idea of limiting the number of enhancements a creature can have not only adds an interest tactical resource management element to the game, but limits the problem of power creep as constantly new spells and whatevers are invented. And linking it to Charisma is a great idea too!
And that said, thank you SO MUCH everyone for all the feedback on this topic! Building this AP was a really tough stunt, and while I would have loved to have waited a year to do it so that we could have had another year's worth of what would essentially amount to playtesting of mythic rules (and not just the character building element, but things like mythic monsters and adventure design and more)... but that's not the way things work, alas.
If we ever do another mythic adventure, I feel confident that a lot of the problems folks have had with this one can be addressed by adventure design without errata to Mythic... but that WILL result in a very very very different feeling adventure. As folks have said... Mythic plays and feels a lot more like the superhero genre than the fantasy genre, and building adventures to do stories with superhero construction themes and motifs might well be the best bet.
Anyway. Keep the feedback coming!
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I think that rules out the AP after Giants being a Mythic adventure. ^^
What we do is we shanghai James Jacobs into being the GM for NobodysHome and NobodysWife, myself, captain yesterday, and magnuskn and drive him crazy as we keep insisting on more and more roleplaying elements in the AP he runs for us. ;)
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I think that rules out the AP after Giants being a Mythic adventure. ^^
What we do is we shanghai James Jacobs into being the GM for NobodysHome and NobodysWife, myself, captain yesterday, and magnuskn and drive him crazy as we keep insisting on more and more roleplaying elements in the AP he runs for us. ;)
You could put that game up on Twitch and make a fortune in Subscriptions.
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I think that rules out the AP after Giants being a Mythic adventure. ^^
What we do is we shanghai James Jacobs into being the GM for NobodysHome and NobodysWife, myself, captain yesterday, and magnuskn and drive him crazy as we keep insisting on more and more roleplaying elements in the AP he runs for us. ;)
We've no intention of doing another mythic adventure path anytime soon. You might see a mythic creature show up now and then, but that's about it for the immediate future.
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Well, I'd be up for such a group, if a good timeslot could be found. However, since I am just now urgently looking for a new job (and the next days also got a very important exam/job interview coming up on Monday and I will spend the next two days memorizing German history / German politics / International law / economics / trivia knowledge and dates as well as I can, after weeks of reading up on those topics), that date may be difficult to nail down. :p
Anyway, thanks to James for acknowledging our feedback. I think the most important part to take note of is really that the comparative damage output of PC's to durability of opponents is wildly off in favor of the PC's and there needs to be adjustments made on how tough opponents are in Mythic.
I think that rules out the AP after Giants being a Mythic adventure. ^^
What we do is we shanghai James Jacobs into being the GM for NobodysHome and NobodysWife, myself, captain yesterday, and magnuskn and drive him crazy as we keep insisting on more and more roleplaying elements in the AP he runs for us. ;)
I personally wouldn't complain about a thing with this group:) and i'm on board if only for the Nostalgia of being only a player (27 years and counting since the last time i was only a PC, tho 17 of those i wasn't RPGing at all, burnout, girls and all:)
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You're singing my song there, cap, only without the girls. And for that matter I did game as a player last maybe 15 years ago? But I've regaled all on why I left that path.
Yeah i got lucky with my teenage years,
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Here's one solution that has been bandied about: Limit the number of buffs on a character to his or her charisma modifier, with a minimum of one. I think there were conditions on that (like allowing bardic song in addition) but really, you could just limit it to Charisma modifier for everything.
It would have a huge impact on the game. And stop having Charisma as a dump stat!
I would have to object to this. It fixes the problem--for characters without charisma modifiers, while not doing anything to those who would have them, hurts MAD classes and concepts more, and just seems kinda unreasonable especially if you buff stuff or if you play a character that isn't super optimized. Do I want to be able to fly so I can actually hit things, or have heroism so I have a shot at these DC 30-40 saves, or have protection from evil so I don't get dominated, or stoneskin so I can survive a full attack? Man, I shoulda been a bard, oracle, wizard, or paladin; they can have all those at the same time. I know I wouldn't like it if every time my gunslinger needs to umd a scroll so she can disarm a magic trap all her buffs are nullified (by the way, that one trap at the end of book 5 can die in a fire. You know the one).
Not only that, it would discourage playing any race that has a CHA penalty. That might not seem like a big thing, but look at the demographics of most of the parties listed in the party thread. They're overwhelmingly aasimar, human, and tiefling. I know it's thematic, but the book does also say that this is a good opportunity to try out new races, so why have a system in place that discourages a good number of options, options that are already not as strong as the most common ones?
And that's another thing; paladin is probably the most popular class, and most effective martial given the subject matter. Get CHA, get good saves, and can smite all day erry day, while the magus is miffed he only gets to maybe have haste or mage armor while he can't shocking grasp anything...
Instead of Cha, make it your highest mental stat?
Or everyone roll a d6 and take the average each morning. You could make that a d4 or d3 if you fancy playing on hard mode!
I agree, James, it means a lot that you acknowledged this!
Tangent101, do you mean that you only DM, never play? Did you explain why, online, and if so, would you mind posting a link to that post?
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James, there's something I'm curious about and I was hoping you might be able to shed light upon. Since many of the issues that have arisen with this AP are related to Mythic and the numbers underlying the system, I was wondering if there was any attempt to mathematically model expected damage outputs, initiative values, and other fairly basic "be good at your combat niche" type character building options? Things like probability of success, expected damage amounts, etc are all calculatable values. I've found the bestiary monster CR guidelines (how much HP, damage, etc you should expect for a monster of a certain CR) extremely valuable and I was wondering why it appears something similar wasn't done when developing this system.
Thanks for your responses in this thread and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.
The problem is that there really wasn't a lot of good solid playtesting feedback for high tier, high level characters for us to work with. At least, as far as I saw. The high level Wrath of the Righteous adventures used the best feedback and material we had... but in large I felt increasingly like I was flying into the dark. There were SO many options available, and to a certain extent I kind of felt like the design team and the playtesters alike really focused more on character building than they did on actually building adventures or how to build long-term campaigns for Mythic. Which is sort of par for the course, it feels like... the higher level things get, the more they need playtesting, but the less folks seem interested in playtesting them.
In a way, Wrath of the Righteous IS the high-level mythic playtest. It's a shame that it's also the final product, I guess.
If I did this again, I'd be in a better place to develop a more well-balanced and well-made AP... but I'm not eager to do it again anytime soon. Which is too bad for me, since the type of story I wanted to tell with Wrath (facing off against demigods/etc.) is one particularly like (it's the core of the 3 Dungeon APs we did, after all).
I just really think that Mythic sort of failed at one of its roles—to provide a solid play experience beyond 20th level, which is kind of what I wanted but, as it turns out, wasn't really exactly what came out of Mythic Adventures.
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I agree, James, it means a lot that you acknowledged this!
Tangent101, do you mean that you only DM, never play? Did you explain why, online, and if so, would you mind posting a link to that post?
Yes, I only DM and never play.
Long story short, most of the people who GMed games I was in were not the type you want as a GM. So I no longer trust people to run games unless I've known them for years. Fortunately, I enjoy running games as it indulges my creative talents.
Mythic plays and feels a lot more like the superhero genre than the fantasy genre, and building adventures to do stories with superhero construction themes and motifs might well be the best bet.
That's a good insight to take into running a mythic campaign too, I think (as well as writing it).
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A lot of my time spent playing 3.0/3.5 was behind the cardboard curtain. While I like to run games, it does leave me with a back log of character's I'd like to run. (Like my idea for a warforged Jade Phoenix mage in Eberron. The "See everyone, I have a soul, it's a class feature!!!" character. Some day, some day...). I can't imagine always being stuck back there though.
I'm Lucky there are a number of really good DMs in my circles of friends/fellow gamers, so of late I've been able to play too, even if I still run a decent amount.
James, I'd originally heard that Mythic was supposed to be the 20+ level play rules. Obviously that's not what they are now, it's more super heroes (with a dash of Exalted) for Pathfinder. Personally, I like that a lot more as that means mythic is going to see a lot more play at my games. But what brought about the shift in focus?
And any hope for some more official mythic splat support? I'd love to see some more work on legendary item abilities and some more monstrous mythic abilities (path abilities that require being a monster of some sort to take).
Finally, you mentioned a bit further up that you'd pitched limiting the number of buff spells that can be running at once on a character. Can you elaborate any more on that? How were the limits going to be set for example? I'm very interested in that if you can share it here.
maybe tweaks of Mythic Adventures would be something for Pathfinder Unchained?
I used to be an improv DM and occasionally play under other improv DMs. But once I played under some really good prep DMs I changed my tune quickly and that's now my preferred style. (I.e. locations prepped, not events or plot prepped, that's not fun for me. Also lots and lots of random tables, I also enjoy that.)
Being a player under both bad and good DMs has taught me so much.
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Can't we just sweep mythic rules under the rug and pretend they never happened? There's not much point to attach more rules to something that doesn't work very well.
Well, it was just a thought:)
i will say that knowing Wrath of the Righteous would go to 20th level/10th tier it is a shame they didnt put more emphasis on higher level play-testing so they had a better idea on challenges for the latter books
ah, well hindsight is 20/20:)
at least they have such a creative, well spoken and vocal customer base, i'm sure the next one will be much more challenging:) love the story tho:)
I'll agree with the story :) That was very enjoyable. Actually I liked Mythic Realms too for the feel of the more dangerous and powerful regions of the world.
yeah love mythic realms awesome book is the player companion as good do you know
I'd really like to see another product line focused on Mythic. Maybe a PFS scenario where they get temporary mythic powers? Maybe just setting stuff?
Either way, I don't think Mythic necessarily fits into the normal Pathfinder AP stuff...I think it would be much better as its own world (of course I say world meaning it can take place in Golarion...just that it needs to be its own line like the Ultimate universe in Marvel).
I hope this doesn't mean that Mythic is "failed" in terms of market support...I really want to see more done with this.
Me too. I'd love to see a mythic module or two, personally.
Oho! Thanks Alleran!
I could even see some pretty good stories where they pick up temporary Mythic Tiers, then lose them during the battle with a Mythic BBEG, and then maybe get them back when they are about to die or some such.
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In a way, Wrath of the Righteous IS the high-level mythic playtest. It's a shame that it's also the final product, I guess.
I can't say I'm thrilled to know I paid to playtest this product.
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I spent today reading this whole thread because I'm sleepy and refuse to do real work, but a thought occurred while going over the point in the conversation where the inclusion of Mythic Adventures and Ultimate Campaign rules became a necessity. The APs are marketed to include those rules and thus expand the possibilities of the game system. The Strategy Guide is supposed to be released soon, and hopefully, for the sake of new players, it'll include hints at building more robust characters so that the argument of 'your party is too optimized' goes away completely. Perhaps this is a good time to buff up AP design and make more tactically sound bad guys.
If I did this again, I'd be in a better place to develop a more well-balanced and well-made AP... but I'm not eager to do it again anytime soon. Which is too bad for me, since the type of story I wanted to tell with Wrath (facing off against demigods/etc.) is one particularly like (it's the core of the 3 Dungeon APs we did, after all).
I just really think that Mythic sort of failed at one of its roles—to provide a solid play experience beyond 20th level, which is kind of what I wanted but, as it turns out, wasn't really exactly what came out of Mythic Adventures.
I understand not wanting to do another AP like this, considering all of the issues it caused. However, I did want to say that it was one of the most fun experiences that I've had as a GM, and I do hope that we see it again, sooner or later.
My Girlfriend and I have been trying to glean any information we could out of sales for WotR, or the fact that it is the next PACG Adventure, to see if it sold well enough for you to bring it back for another go. While obviously I don't know what happened, my own personal anecdotal experience is that it's worth another adventure path, and I hope to see it again.
Yes! Please write another mythic AP.
I'd like to see another mythic storyline too.
I'd be up for something like that. Although I'd vote for the great beyond over distant worlds.
Against. Until the developers actually take care to make mythic opponents mythic, instead of cannon fodder.
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Well, yes. I want a good AP, of course.
The storyline is the important thing for me though, I'd hate to miss out on a whiz bang story just because the mythic rules weren't perfectly understood (or because they try it once and then move on when it didn't work out the way they intended).
Almost every AP has problems. I'd rather paizo learn from them than try everything once and then give up. I think occassional misfires is the price of innovation. Mythic is a whole new thing - I really enjoyed the difference in scope that they were able to play with.
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I'll be honest, I don't see why we couldn't have a "mythic" storyline within the normal rules. Mythic rules don't really add much than additional levels to the entire thing and just crank the numbers game higher. It's kind of like with a new World of Warcraft expansion, where suddenly all the stuff you did before is meaningless and there is a number explosion.
If Paizo would tighten the leveling pace for a more "powerful" storyline so that the last module goes from levels 17-20, then that would make for an extremely powerful finale all by its own, no need to add the mythic rules on top. IMO, a level 20 group would have no problem downing Tar-Baphon.
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Personally I don't see why you can't have a Mythic AP that only goes to the 5th Tier.
And really, the best way to eliminate rocket-tag for ANY level of play (Mythic or not) is to modify critical hits so they work like Vital Strike - only adding weapon dice, not other bonuses, on a critical.
to be honest Tangent that how i thought it did work, i'm so glad my wife and kids don't read the rules much and rely on me for rules lawyering, which is not my strongest suit:)
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I'll be honest, I don't see why we couldn't have a "mythic" storyline within the normal rules. Mythic rules don't really add much than additional levels to the entire thing and just crank the numbers game higher. It's kind of like with a new World of Warcraft expansion, where suddenly all the stuff you did before is meaningless and there is a number explosion.
If Paizo would tighten the leveling pace for a more "powerful" storyline so that the last module goes from levels 17-20, then that would make for an extremely powerful finale all by its own, no need to add the mythic rules on top. IMO, a level 20 group would have no problem downing Tar-Baphon.
If not mythic, then I would certainly love another 1-20 campaign at the least. It was so satisfying actually being able to use the capstone abilities (though, unfortunately, a lot of the party were classes that didn't actually have capstones)
So it sounds like:
I'd be most interested in seeing if a 7 or 8 book AP is ever possible...
The mythic rules need to be nearly entirely rewritten and reworked to be viable. That is what should happen before any other product draws upon those rules. And that is unlikely to happen.
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Personally I don't see why you can't have a Mythic AP that only goes to the 5th Tier.
I would second this idea.
Since Mythic tiers are designed to run concurrently with levels, there's no need for a Mythic AP to go to level 20 / tier 10. In fact, the first adjustment to WotR should probably be to plan on the PCs finishing a level15/tier5.
There no reason to throw out good ideas simply because the first attempt at a Mythic AP had issues.
-Skeld