Wrath of the Righteous - A Failed AP


Wrath of the Righteous

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Tangent101 wrote:

Here is my concern. Mythic Adventures went through playtesting. While some changes were made (such as fixed Mythic Points rather than having it dependent on one specific stat), there were some significant flaws left in the rules, and some broken areas that were overlooked.

We now have a new Ruleset coming out for 10 new classes come August. The playtest was... entirely too short. We saw a significant rewrite of one class, true, and some partial rewrites of some others... but there were problems reported going into this.

How broken will the Advanced Class Guide be? Will I be banning specific classes because I don't want to let classes that are overpowered into the AP? (Alternatively, will I be having specific classes advancing with the Slow Advancement rules while the rest advance under Medium Advancement (and perhaps let Rogues go to the Fast Advancement) so to "balance" overpowered classes like they did in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D?)

Paizo may very well need to extend the time for playtesting new rules. If we had the Mythic Rules for an extra two months, we might have seen more of how broken the rules are... and they could have been fixed better. Likewise, we could have better balanced the 10 classes in the upcoming rulebook if we'd had more time to playtest the classes.

I share all of your concerns. In my opinion Mythic was utterly unnecessary and was to the detriment of the game. I feel the same about the new so-called 'hybrid classes'. New is not always better. More is not always better. But New and More inevitably sell, and Pathfinder is suddenly in danger of following 3.5 down the tubes for the exact same reasons and in the exact same way.

Just my opinion. Mythic will not see play at our table. Hybrids will not see play at our table, but when I eventually get to the point of banning more rules than I'm allowing, what's the point?

The Exchange

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I might as well weigh in:

I am currently GMing a group of 5 36pt buy, Gestalt characters. we are about done with book 2, just getting to the final room. the players are currently 9/2, and telling me that they feel extremely under powered for the AP.

They each have an average wealth of a 12th level character. The party has no less than 9 artifacts in their possession. Yet still, my players call this game the most difficult they have ever played.

Before people start crying foul that my players must be subpar or some such, the group consists of a Mindcymist/Witch, a gnome heavens oracle/Sorcerer, a beastmorph, vivasectionist/Ninja that focus in non-lethal dmg(something like 36d6+150ish dmg per attack), an archer Paladin/zen archer, and a dual-cursed life oracle/Evangelist cleric.

i haven't nerfed any of my players powers, and actively look for loopholes for them to increase their power in combat.

This all boils down to what Mr. Jacobs has said countless times, only you know your group, and should adjust as according. i have done so, and my players are having a blast, they actually have to think through actions instead of just blindly wading through rooms, as they have learned that this can lead to their very untimely demise. We dont think this is a failed AP.

I also know that some people are not ready to devote the kind of time i have to make this work for their party, so this product is not for them, but to unfairly call this AP a failure is either ignorance, or lazyness. The story is, imnsho, is one of the best Paizo has done for us yet.

TL;DR
This is not a fail, but instead is a project that should be either used with extreme caution(15pt, Core only, etc) or one that requires an absurd amount of time as a GM to tailor to your PC's (i have been doing 10+ hours a week for our biweekly game)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Joe Burn, the point isn't that you can't make the game difficult.

The point is that if you play the game out of the box (ie, unmodified from the original material) then most players will end up unchallenged.

I buy APs because I don't have the time to write my own campaigns anymore. Most people don't, and thus the APs are a convenient source of creativity they can use to have fun with their friends. But the more time you need to spend to enhance the module... the less value it has to the GM.

So. Your group is challenged by this because you modified the AP to be challenging for them (and they're also still 2nd Tier and 9th level, where the AP remains challenging according to multiple sources). How is your viewpoint any more "valid" than that of magnuskn who has also heavily modified things and yet had his players cakewalk the AP lately?

The Exchange

@Tangent101
I'm not saying that i have any better say than these GM's(quite the contrary infact), what im saying is that if an adventure is designed for a specific set of rules, either you as the GM must choose to accept this, keeping your players within this set of rules, or accept that you are using a different set of rules, and that the AP is no longer anything more than a guideline, or story that you as the GM must then devote time and energy to make work for your set of rules.

for example:
if i bought a used car, and it was sold to me to be something that would get me to my job, home, and the store as needed, with those locations all in the same 15min drive. if i wanted to all of a sudden make this a "roadtrip" car, and expected it to drive cross country, i would get it fixed up to to handle such a trip. but if i determined that the cost to fix this car for that purpose would be more than buying a new car, i couldn't call the car a failure, i would accept the fact that i bought the car for the wrong purpose


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

And yet we have heard stories of four-player 15-point-build groups that were not challenged at all by the game as-written. And when you look at the Obits thread and compare it to the Obit threads for Reign of Winter and Runelords, for example, you find far far fewer deaths. Or even near-deaths.

The point is this: The Wrath of the Runelords AP, as-written, ceases to be a significant challenge past the third book. We have stories of four-player groups taking out Demon Lords in one round. And this is not a one-time occurrence. Multiple groups have taken out these Demon Lords despite the encounters being written as "encourage your players to flee lest they die in this encounter."

People have listed multiple problems with the rules. For instance, Power Attack doubling the bonus for Power Attack on a critical BEFORE multiplying it for the critical... which means a 12th level fighter would do a minimum of 50 damage for a critical hit, assuming they did NOT take Mythic Improved Critical... or a minimum of 75 damage with MIC. This is assuming a Strength of 10 and a non-magical weapon. And this is just level 12.

A level 20 Fighter would do 111 damage minimum under that same scenario of non-magical weapon and a Strength of 10. A level 20 Paladin with a Strength of 24 and a +5 Weapon while Smiting with Power Attack who critted on the first hit against a Demon Lord would do a bare minimum of 267, assuming he or she attacked with a weapon that ordinarily did x2 for critical hits. And I'm quite sure that adding a couple more Feats to this would result in a minimum damage of 300-400 damage.

How many hit points do Demon Lords have again? Somewhere around 600? So if deliberately-unoptimized warrior-types are doing a minimum of 1/6th of a Demon Lord's hit points per critical hit (and can do this with a rapier of all things 25% of the time), then how is a demon lord supposed to withstand this so that a fight becomes epic?

Oh wait. He can't. Not without running away. And that is so very epic and mythic, having a demon lord run away after one round of combat. Assuming he didn't die.

The Exchange

CWheezy wrote:

Metaphors are totally useless, please never use them in a conversation.

Quote:
I am currently GMing a group of 5 36pt buy, Gestalt characters. we are about done with book 2, just getting to the final room. the players are currently 9/2, and telling me that they feel extremely under powered for the AP.

This is misleading, because you might as well be not playing the AP any more. You should have said "I changed basically everything and my players are struggling"

That is correct, i did change almost everything. i did this because the AP as written was not suitable to my group, so i took Mr. Jacobs advice, and adapted the AP to my group.


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Bowman Verde wrote:
Yes I think many people are failing as DMs, just like many think the AP is a fail. Its my opinion, just as much as it is yours.

Okay, whatever then. If you insist upon insulting people, I insist on putting you on ignore. Bye.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Squeakmaan wrote:
Magnuskin, you seem like a nice dude, but I find the exploits of your group of 6 experienced players, who are playing heavily optimized characters with 25 pt builds, to be almost useless when gauging the balance of mythic rules. I have experienced players who are at least as familiar with the rules as I am, and have had little difficulty adjusting things to provide a challenge.

Squeakmaan, you seem to be a nice dude, too, but please take note of what I have been really talking about for the last page, not what you imagine I have been talking about: Basic problems with the math of mythic rules, instead of problems with my particular group.

Also, my players are not heavy optimizers and we are using 20 point buy. None of the characters seem to have been built with any sort of twinkish power level, just normal builds and then upgrades which makes sense.


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Joe Burn wrote:

I'm not saying that i have any better say than these GM's(quite the contrary infact), what im saying is that if an adventure is designed for a specific set of rules, either you as the GM must choose to accept this, keeping your players within this set of rules, or accept that you are using a different set of rules, and that the AP is no longer anything more than a guideline, or story that you as the GM must then devote time and energy to make work for your set of rules.

for example:
if i bought a used car, and it was sold to me to be something that would get me to my job, home, and the store as needed, with those locations all in the same 15min drive. if i wanted to all of a sudden make this a "roadtrip" car, and expected it to drive cross country, i would get it fixed up to to handle such a trip. but if i determined that the cost to fix this car for that purpose would be more than buying a new car, i couldn't call the car a failure, i would accept the fact that i bought the car for the wrong purpose

And the problem I have been pointing out is that the AP, which is written for use with Mythic Adventures, utterly doesn't take note of what mythic abilities do to PC's. Hell, I've been saying that for months before even experiencing it myself, just by reading the Mythic Adventures rules and then looking at the stats the writers offered up for the demon lords.

You can say all day "GM's have to adjust for their group" (which I have been doing and will continue to. I'll begin by maxing and then doubling HP as soon as this Tuesday), but the real problem is that the basic design for the mythic rules is a failure when the developers themselves do not account at all for PC damage potential vs. opponent durability.

How would you feel about the core rules if the developers would have only give half HP to every opponent after level seven? That's what we are dealing here with.

BTW, as Tangent pointed out, the real crazyness starts when tier three hits.

Dark Archive

For everyone saying about following the rules for what the AP's are set for sometimes that is just not realistic. What would you do deny people to play. Also for the 4 players at the 15 point buy system, I played through WOTR with 3 players at the 25 point buy system and they struggled for a while but ultimately they killed most things in one turn after getting high enough level. Now I actually liked WOTR but in all true I have to say that the Mythic rules where overpowered. In most cases it was a game of rocket tag when it came down to Mythic versus Mythic. And against everything else it was just wait tell we get to you or tell my wizard asked you to leave or some such nonsense that he can do. Hell my wizard dominated 2 black dragons and had them as his guards. He even was strong enough to have a 50% chance of dominating a Balor Lord.

Dark Archive

Seannoss wrote:

And going by the obituaries if you have to throw your 10th level PCs against a marilith to challenge them then you're helping to prove our point.

Just for clarity sake... wasn't meant to be a challenge. I had basically taken the party cleric and put her in the cathedral on paradise hill, then I took one of the tanks and sent him on a solo mission into Mendev to gain the aid of the Green Faith so that Drezen can grow their own crops untainted(His own mythic trial/story line). The remaining three stayed in their Garrison on the far south of Drezen when Xanthir Vang sent his massive army to assault them. The three decided to split up, one floating above the garrison(Magus), one on the roof(Ranger), and finally the Inquisitor inside the garrison. The Inquisitor faced the Marilith alone. Deciding to stand and die valiantly while the remaining soldiers could make it to the roof to hold out until reinforcements arrived.

Was it balanced? Nope. Wasnt supposed to be, the Worldwound isn't a fair place.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

BTW, magnuskn, which aspect of Tier 3 do you consider most broken? I ask as I will eventually have my groups reach Tier 3 and I want to know what parts of Mythic to excise so to prevent it from being too broken. (Of course, it also helps that I'm adapting Mythic to Runelords and Reign of Winter, so modifying and nerfing Mythic won't damage my game.)


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Tangent101 wrote:
BTW, magnuskn, which aspect of Tier 3 do you consider most broken? I ask as I will eventually have my groups reach Tier 3 and I want to know what parts of Mythic to excise so to prevent it from being too broken. (Of course, it also helps that I'm adapting Mythic to Runelords and Reign of Winter, so modifying and nerfing Mythic won't damage my game.)

A.) The second mythic feat, which opens up possibilities like Mythic Power Attack + Mythic Improved Critical.

B.) Tier three path abilities, especially Fleet Warrior and Precision for the Champion (and some other specializations). I'm sure that there are abilities for the casters which are equally as egregious, but those stand out sharply.


Matrix Dragon wrote:

I like mythic, but I admit that I have to wonder if the solution to getting mythic to work properly is just to ban mythic feats in general. There really wasn't any reason why chracters needed those kinds of numerical buffs unless you really want them to become absurdly powerful, lol. And let's face it: the mythic feats are almost all just about numbers.

Not all of them: mythic eldritch heritage isn't and neither is mystic racial heritage.


For me the AP was failed once I fully read the fluff for the campaign traits. Really, there was only one I could have forced myself to write down on my sheet and that one (and the mythic path connected to it) would have been totally useless for my PC.
So in the end the bad fluff for the traits was the final nail in the APs coffin.

The worst thing about the mythic rules is something about fluff, too: The mythic ability that allows you to grant domains to your followers.

Edit:
As an example what I do not like about the traits:

Player's guide wrote:
Stolen Fury: You were forced to take part in a demonic ritual as a youth after having been captured by cultists. Whatever the ritual’s purpose may have been, it didn’t work out the way your captors envisioned—rather than corrupting your soul,you absorbed the ritual’s energy and made it your own before you escaped to safety. Ever since, you’ve been haunted by strange nightmares about the ritual, and have long felt that the energies it bathed you in have changed you. Recently, those energies have changed— it’s as if you’ve finally managed to come to terms with your past and have turned the ritual’s aftereffects to your advantage, following the old adage of what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

So instead of playing a shining hero, embodiment of good you are forced to play something tainted by evil in ways unknown. A person who, in nearly all forms of fiction, will in the end fulfil his/her final destiny and embrace his/her dark side.

In an all out good vs evil, demon hunting adventure I would not even want to have someone like that in my party, let alone play it.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My 40-pb max-optimizers parties kill their enemies only 1 round faster in Mythic than in non-mythic (1 round vs 2 rounds). The problem that Mythic brings, though, is many of the things we could use to make an encounter compelling (Read: not hard for hards sake, but something the party enjoys but isn't a cakewalk) are removed by the Mythic abilities. Every counter that the party had prior to mythic is three times more powerful in mythic, and it makes what we expect to be a difficult fight to a trivial one and design warrants making cheesy choices to compensate.

Ex. My 6/3 (Effective APL = 10 after mythic, wealth, and pb) party was fighting a boss fight against an Ashurendra (CR17) that I HD devolved down to CR12 then added five MR's to. A good CR14 monster, which vs the APL 10 party of optimizers comes out to about an APL+1.5 encounter challenge wise. I had to result in making a cinematic fight for a portion of the encounter, as well as giving the 300hp monster another 300-odd hp. The result was a twelve round affair that forced the party to do more than spam MP abilities, and we all had a blast.

Point being, Mythic is *HARD* to design encounters for. Saying that a GM is failing because they're having difficulty with a series of adventures designed by a half a dozen folks *NOT* the GM is foolish. The Mythic rules are a beast of very powerful abilities, heavily, heavily slanted toward making the PCs leagues better than every enemy ever. Wrath of the Righteous seems to compensate more for the disparity by uber powerful enemies, hence rocket tag / who kills who in round 1. Not the way I'd do it, but then again, I'm not a professional designer, just a lay designer who GM's 40pb games and ignores WBL and XP.


At first, I couldn't understand the negativity being directed towards Mythic ruleset. After playing Wrath of the Righteous since October 2013, and now at book 4 and level 12/rank 5, I can understand those feelings. When we took out the Woundwyrm in 2 rounds at level 10/rank 2, 4 retrievers (before the wyrm) with no real casualties (I got petrified, but no one died), and the Worm that Walks in 1 round (we won initiative, and the paladin and magus slaughtered it with AoOs when it flew up in the air), I realized how absurd the rules are. The only encounters which proved difficult were the chimera, and the battle on the bridge outside the Gray Garrison (I think that's where it was).

I am bored to tears almost every session. Why? I chose a Life Oracle as my character. Why would I do such a thing? Because I figured such a character would be needed. I figured mythic creatures would be difficult, and a healer type would be crucial to the party's success. I have given up on hoping my character would die so I could possibly make a new one.

Spoiler:
Now that we are in the abyss, and need to increase our notoriety, I am tempted to take the option of just instigating a massive brawl so maybe there will be a chance to either be able to heal, or die and make a new character. Or, there to be a TPK and the campaign gets folded.

I enjoy the DM we have, and he's an awesome guy. I also like the people I play with for this AP. But to be honest, I have not been having any sort of fun since Book 2. I would hate to see how badly we would steamroll through this if I was a damager.

Oh, and for reference: We are a 4 person party with 20 point buy. Players are aasimar life oracle/heirophant (me, favored class bonus of +hp), aasimar paladin/lunar oracle/champion, human cleric/fighter/holy vindicator/guardian, and ? magus/archmage (not sure on the race. Elf, or maybe human. Never seen the character's sheet). No idea if anything has been altered from what is written, but my guess is not.


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of course you're steam rolling everything! Your entire party except yourself is dedicated to causing as much devestation as possible


That is indeed an odd man out situation.


Umbranus wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

I like mythic, but I admit that I have to wonder if the solution to getting mythic to work properly is just to ban mythic feats in general. There really wasn't any reason why chracters needed those kinds of numerical buffs unless you really want them to become absurdly powerful, lol. And let's face it: the mythic feats are almost all just about numbers.

Not all of them: mythic eldritch heritage isn't and neither is mystic racial heritage.

Right, and those kinds of flavorful once could still be allowed or changed into powers. Mythic versions of Power Attack, Improved Critical, and Spell Focus could all easily be banned though.

Though, I guess I am unsure about the Spell Focus one considering some people are complaining that enemies saving throws are too high.


Anorak wrote:

I want to say up front that this is not a FAILED AP in my opinion and think the title is misleading given Aldarionn's caveat's.

I think what has happened is that Wrath was designed for four, 15-point buy with Mythic players. Not overly optimized or large groups of optimized players, which can in any AP, cause problems if the GM doesn't take a hand in preventing.

Also I want to add that this is the Mythic Campaign where the Heroes become Godlings and fight, no, KILL, Demon Lords. One Shot kills on both sides are likely given the megadamage being tossed around. I mean hell the opening scene has a Great Wyrm Dragon being Vorpled by a Juiced up Balor.

Again, Doomed Hero is on the money with "If you have a party that reads like a who's who of "pushing the powerlevel" concepts (Heavens Oracle, Scarred Witch Doctor, Archer Paladin, Pouncebarian, Wild Caller, etc) you're going to have a "failed" AP no matter which one you choose.

I'm sorry Anorak, your argument is invalid. Your avatar looks too much like Ori from the Hobbit. He was the most sub-par built dwarf of the bunch (slingshot?? REALLY??), therefore, you will be shackled to to Rock of Shame.

Sorry!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130205205637/lotr/images/8/81/Ori.jpeg


I think part of the problem that some parties are having with the mythic rules here is the same problem that some parties have with the Summoner/Eidolon. It is too customizable, and it is too easy to simply select all the most powerful options.

Basically, a player will get 15 picks throughout the lifetime of his mythic character. The difference in power and playstyle between characters who selects 15 mythic offensive powers, 15 mythic defensive powers, and 15 flavor powers is HUGE. Most people will naturally gravitate towards selecting all the 'power' options, and pick the bare minimum of defense (if any at all). This leads to the 'rocket tag' that some people are complaining about.

The fact that the power levels can vary so wildly means it is effectively impossible to write an AP for all mythic parties. Plus, Paizo underestimated just how much your average player would gravitate towards the most powerful options in my opinion.

This is exactly why they shouldn't have put in ANY strong offensive options in my opinion. If there are even a few things that by themselves can make a character powerful chances are that a lot of people will select *all of them*. The only other option would have been to make the mythic paths like classes that have all the powers pre-selected. Right now a mythic path is basically a customizable class, and can you imagine what would happen if players could do things like combining the most powerful abilities of a paladin and a ranger (like smite and favored enemy) while leaving out the 'flavor' options (like auras and favored terrain)?

Edit: I just want to say here that despite all this I don't think mythic rules makes this a 'Failed AP'. It is however probably the most difficult AP to GM for in all of Pathfinder, because you simply cannot expect to use the encounters past book 2. If you want your players to be challenged, or to not be TPKed by the first thing that survives their alpha strike, it is very likely that you will have to customize every encounter. Some people won't like that or won't be able to do that, and those people will need to run a different AP.

Unfortunatelly for Paizo, a lot of people are going to buy this AP expecting to run it as written. Sadly, I think a lot of those people aren't going to be very happy.


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Well, with all my grousing I also want to point out (again) that I don't consider the AP to be the thing which has failed, but rather the rule system which Paizo put on top of it, i.e. Mythic Adventures. The story of Wrath of the Righteous is just fine.

Remembering back to when Mythic Adventures was just released, I think my first comment on it was that the monsters were looking curiously low-powered in comparison to what player characters could do. Well, not to pat myself too badly on the back, but it seems I was right on the money.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

With as much customization that high level and mythic makes the GM do I wonder if Paizo can release a product to work with that. Would they publish the big overview of an AP to fill in the story and suggest encounter guidelines.

Also, monsters being weak is not a new thing. My philosophy for years has been that the toughest opponents are other beings with PC classes.

Is there a thread somewhere for constructive criticism? We could all post ideas on what (most of us) would suggest for a mythic rule set.

Liberty's Edge

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Brox RedGloves wrote:


I'm sorry Anorak, your argument is invalid. Your avatar looks too much like Ori from the Hobbit. He was the most sub-par built dwarf of the bunch (slingshot?? REALLY??), therefore, you will be shackled to to Rock of Shame.

Sorry!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130205205637/lotr/images/8/81/Ori.jpeg

My apologies, Brox! I couldn't find an avatar with bird hair so went with this guy. Perhaps I can get another soon! :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

As a brief aside, I would like to mention that sometimes you find a player who goes for flavour instead of function. For instance, I've a young lady in my Reign of Winter campaign who rolled really well with her stats. As in this would be over a 50-point build. She went with a human and rather than boost her sole 17 to an 19 or a 16 to an 18, she boosted a 15 to a 17 (providing her with two 17s).

She also chose to play a Rogue... and uses the blowgun for her weapon of choice - in fact, she uses the blowgun whenever possible, despite the fact the weapon does pathetic damage (though she's doing more damage now that she has Deadly Aim).

The two Mythic Path abilities she chose? Impeccable Balance and Shadow Stealth. She did take Mythic Deadly Aim, but that was my suggestion and as far as Mythic Feats go, that one isn't overpowered like Mythic Power Attack.

One thing you could do as a variant rule is allow only one combat-related Mythic Feat and a balance of combat and non-combat Mythic Path Abilities. But enforcing a rounded character on players may cause problems with the min/max crowd.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Tangeant101, Can you compile your list of changes you would make to Mythic? If you did this already and I missed it, my apologies.

Regarding Mythic Power Attack, it seems "the bonus damage from this feat is doubled on a critical hit, before it's multiplied by the weapon's critical multiplier",is what is causing the problem with this feat?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I've not created a comprehensive list. I probably should.

But here are a couple highlights:

1. Alter the critical hits system so it functions like Vital Strike - the only thing multiplied with a critical hit is weapon dice, even if other rules state differently.

2. Do not increase initiative as a result of Mythic ability.

3. Do not allow an extra standard action upon reaching the 3rd tier.

4. Path Abilities, Mythic Feats, and Mythic Spells must be balanced with a combination of defensive, neutral, and offensive abilities (though I'd be tempted to allow players to drop the offensive abilities entirely... I'm not sure if that wouldn't end up with a broken character as well).

5. Specific Mythic Feats and Path abilities would be removed from the game. I'd really need to go through the book to determine which should go, which can be nerfed, and which work as-is.

6. Mythic Saving Throws (at the 5th Tier) require a point of Mythic to enact.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Even without the crit nerf, mythic power attack proved to be a must take feat as it effectively adds 1-4 to all attack rolls.

I would suggest limiting mythic points (maybe 1 less per tier) and possibly limiting the number of points a character could spend on a turn. Both of these may help with novas.

I think most abilities could be written with tier limits in mind and have them scale in power.


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Heh. Maybe we should do The Mythic Adventures Rewrite Project and allow Paizo to use the finished product for the second printing (and revised PDF) of Mythic Adventures? :)


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Tangent101 wrote:

I've not created a comprehensive list. I probably should.

But here are a couple highlights:

1. Alter the critical hits system so it functions like Vital Strike - the only thing multiplied with a critical hit is weapon dice, even if other rules state differently.

2. Do not increase initiative as a result of Mythic ability.

3. Do not allow an extra standard action upon reaching the 3rd tier.

4. Path Abilities, Mythic Feats, and Mythic Spells must be balanced with a combination of defensive, neutral, and offensive abilities (though I'd be tempted to allow players to drop the offensive abilities entirely... I'm not sure if that wouldn't end up with a broken character as well).

5. Specific Mythic Feats and Path abilities would be removed from the game. I'd really need to go through the book to determine which should go, which can be nerfed, and which work as-is.

6. Mythic Saving Throws (at the 5th Tier) require a point of Mythic to enact.

In short, Mythic doesn't work. Creating complicated re-writes of rules already both unnecessary and complicated shouldn't be a solution to anything (though I'm not arguing any of your specific fixes). Its just an unnecessary rule system that causes plenty of problems and, near as I can tell, fixes nothing.

If one wanted Epic level rules I could literally write you an effective system on the back of a napkin... wouldn't sell a lot of product though, and that's really what the point of Mythic was. Shiny new bells and whistles to buy, forced on you via existing subscription, whether it actually worked or not.

I know its been said but I want to reiterate - Wrath of the Righteous good, Mythic rules bad. To be honest, the track record for 'new rules' introduced via AP is pretty poor (caravan rules, ship combat rules, etc.), but at least in previous iterations they could simply be ignored without forcing massive re-writes of the entire AP.


I don't know really about some of what people have stated about it being too easy as WotR is the ONLY AP I've been in where the DM TPK'd the party.

Most of the APs have some challenge, but I hadn't ever been in a party which had a TPK like that before. It may have been the DM (I was a player, not the one DMing), or it could have been the AP itself, I don't know, but it did cause at least one TPK with a group that really steamrolled some other APs apparently (I didn't play all those APs with them, so can only say from what they had talked about).

I wasn't the one DMing though, so he may have modified it. However, from the experience as a player, it didn't seem all that underpowered overall.


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Wiggz, you miss the point of Mythic. Mythic Rules are meant to allow epic play at ANY level. You can have a Mythic 1st level character - the character would have improved survivability and be able to do one or two nifty things, but would otherwise be a 1st level character.

Epic level is level 20+. So if a group never reaches that point, why bother?

It's an interesting concept. It was flawed in the execution, but few people have stated Mythic breaks until the 3rd Tier.


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Tangent101 wrote:

Wiggz, you miss the point of Mythic. Mythic Rules are meant to allow epic play at ANY level. You can have a Mythic 1st level character - the character would have improved survivability and be able to do one or two nifty things, but would otherwise be a 1st level character.

Epic level is level 20+. So if a group never reaches that point, why bother?

It's an interesting concept. It was flawed in the execution, but few people have stated Mythic breaks until the 3rd Tier.

Sorry man, but the idea that we need a whole new ruleset so that 3rd level characters can be 'Epic' is just ludicrous to my mind. If you want to be more powerful or face greater challenges simply play higher level characters... its a pretty direct corollary until you get to post 20 play, with established CR ratings and everything.

I'm a member of the group mentioned by Story Archer, we simply accelerated leveling rather than using Mythic rules and its worked out great for us as, I suspect, it would have for anyone had Mythic rules not been introduced as the shiny new thing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Thanks, Tangent, for the brief list!

Yeah, another way to say it is that the Mythic rules are meant to turn you into a Myth and eventually, if you keep drawing on that power long enough, completing trials, you will undergo apotheosis and become a God. The epic rules didn't do that. Heck, I think it is similar to the old D&D Immortals rules. :)

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some posts. Let's leave the personal attacks out of the thread and not derail it.


Yeah the mythic rules are the thing that is the problem not the actual adventure path itself. Though it doesn't help all the extra goodies that are thrown around.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

Wiggz, you miss the point of Mythic. Mythic Rules are meant to allow epic play at ANY level. You can have a Mythic 1st level character - the character would have improved survivability and be able to do one or two nifty things, but would otherwise be a 1st level character.

Epic level is level 20+. So if a group never reaches that point, why bother?

It's an interesting concept. It was flawed in the execution, but few people have stated Mythic breaks until the 3rd Tier.

Sorry man, but the idea that we need a whole new ruleset so that 3rd level characters can be 'Epic' is just ludicrous to my mind. If you want to be more powerful or face greater challenges simply play higher level characters... its a pretty direct corollary until you get to post 20 play, with established CR ratings and everything.

I'm a member of the group mentioned by Story Archer, we simply accelerated leveling rather than using Mythic rules and its worked out great for us as, I suspect, it would have for anyone had Mythic rules not been introduced as the shiny new thing.

I'm familiar with Story Archer's playtest with non-Mythic characters and running it without Mythic rules. And to be honest? I wouldn't mind running the AP at some point without the Mythic rules for players, though I'd probably allow them 25-point builds and keep the AP as-written. However, my players actually enjoy the Mythic rules so far with the APs I'm running (that I added Mythic to) and if there's not a better AP in a year or two when I finish Reign of Winter, I may very well run them with a modified Mythic ruleset.

The current Mythic rules can still be used however - if you have a very small group (say two players) then giving these players Mythic ability would let them go through most APs without needing to nerf the AP to compensate for a small player base.

And as I said before, modifying the existing Mythic rules would allow for their continued use. Defanging a couple of the more overpowered Mythic Feats, not allowing Mythic Spells to be enhanced with Metamagic Feats or Rods, and not allowing additional standard actions eliminates many of the abuses with Mythic.

Also, Mythic is a useful enhancement for existing monsters that can make an otherwise low-level critter suddenly be a threat. The Mythic Simple Template that lets monsters attack twice in an initiative alone is worth using and results in monsters that not only easily attack before the players (+20 to initiative really really helps with that) but the second attack adds action economy to a smaller number of monsters.

That and I dislike some of the "fixes" I've seen bandied about, like running characters past 20th level or using "gestalt" characters. But I know different players think differently on this.


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These are the changes I'm thinking of suggesting to our group if we plan on using Mythic for this AP....

Base Mythic Abilities:
Ability Score: Upon reaching the 2nd mythic tier, an ability score of your choice permanently increases by 2.
At 6th, and 10th tiers, another ability score of your choice permanently increases by 2; this can be an ability score you’ve already increased or a different ability score.

Feat: Select a bonus feat. You must qualify for this feat normally. You gain another bonus feat at 3rd tier, and again every 3 tiers thereafter.

Hard to Kill (Ex): Whenever you’re below 0 hit points, you automatically stabilize without needing to attempt a Constitution check. If you have an ability that allows you to act while below 0 hit points, you still lose hit points for taking actions, as specified by that ability. Bleed damage still causes you to lose hit points when below 0 hit points. In addition, you don’t die until your total number of negative hit points is equal to or greater than double your Constitution score.

Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. This power is used by a number of different abilities. Each day, you can expend an amount of mythic power equal to 3 plus double your mythic tier (5/day at 1st tier, 7/day at 2nd, etc.). This amount is your maximum amount of mythic power. If an ability allows you to regain uses of your mythic power, you can never have more than this amount.

Surge (Su): You can call upon your mythic power to overcome difficult challenges. You can expend one use of mythic power to increase any d20 roll you just made by rolling 1d6 and adding it to the result. Using this ability is an immediate action taken after the result of the original roll is revealed. This can change the outcome of the roll. The bonus die gained by using this ability increases to 1d8 at 4th tier, 1d10 at 7th tier, and 1d12 at 10th tier.

Completely remove:Amazing Intitiative, Recuperation, Mythic Saving throws, Force of will, Unstoppable, Immortal, Legendary Hero...

All Mythic Feats....

Some of these....like recuperation and immortal really bugged me right from the start anyway.

For the moment, I'm thinking of leaving the path abilities "as is"...

Does it look like this would solve a good chunk of the problems....while still giving the player characters abilities that set them above the average adventurer ???

Shadow Lodge

Would it balance mythic feats if they (and the spells, and the saves, and the path abilities) required an expenditure of mythic power to use, every time? In other words, no complicated rules hacks, just a requirement that players pay to play, if they want to be mythic?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not all Mythic Feats are broken. Mythic Deadly Aim is practically sedate - all it does is add an additional +1 to damage with ranged weapons, with no other effect (unlike Mythic Power Attack which doubles when you crit and can negate to-hit penalties for a Mythic point).


Ok slightly off topic but everyone has been talking about mythic's effect on combat. What are people's experience with the non-combat stuff? I have noticed a lot of the non-combat mythic powers don't seem effective, but I don't know. I would love to take seven league leap but at no point in the ap has it been at all applicable, for example. Same with that one that makes plants grow.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Fanatic Rat: The 'display of abilities' make skill DCs pointless as printed in the game. Its nice to promote growth outside of combat but I had a player hit a 37 DC in a skill they had no ranks in by rolling a 2.

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