The admitted problem for the AP has been the fact they had to develop the AP while developing the rules system that allows it. Frankly I can understand why they had to operate under that constraint (You want product synergy, which means producing an AP that integrates the new rules you want to use).
However it does mean that the relative power level of PCs really wasn't calibrated properly when compared to enemy opponents.
I don't think that spell has a mythic version. If it did I'd give a small bonus to those who ate it and have it augmented so you could feed an army with one casting.It's not a mythic version. It's the Hierophant path Inspired Spell -- use a mythic surge to cast any spell available to you at your CL + 2 without using up a spell slot.
Yes, I am well aware of inspired spell. I merely misunderstood what you meant by mythic doubling that to 400 in your previous post. No probs :)
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So again we're back to what makes an optimized character? Does taking power attack make you optimized? Weapon focus? And after you have those, then the mythic versions? That's as optimized as my PCs were. They fight, they should be expected to take combat feats to make them better at that.
i'm sorry, i suspect i was the catalyst, i wasn't trying to:(
and yes it does make sense to take the appropriate mythic feats.
i suspect they thought half the people would take non-mythic feats with the extra mythic feat selections, but i've been wrong before:)
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Yes, I am well aware of inspired spell. I merely misunderstood what you meant by mythic doubling that to 400 in your previous post. No probs :)
I'm well aware you're aware -- YOU were the one who corrected me. It's my writer's/instructor's tendency to explain everything for the audience, even when it makes no sense.
Imagine Kirk and Scotty in the "real world":
Kirk: Scotty, we need those engines and we need them NOW! How long is it going to take?
Scotty: It'll be at least four hours, cap'n. Unless... unless I reverse the polarity on the dilithium converters and do a cold reboot while holding CTRL+SHIFT+A+S+L. That might just work, Cap'n!
Kirk: Dammit, Scotty, I didn't ask about your friggin' love life! Just fix the d**ned things and leave out the nerdy details! Now excuse me. The ship's in peril. I have to go find a hot alien and make love to her in case we don't make it...
D'oh... the whole audience part. I usually think its just the ten of us rehashing the same items :) And I thoroughly approve of more Scotty/Kirk references.
Up - scale - hit - points.
There, now no more One-shotting. That wasn't very hard was it?
Either lower what you allow your players to do or up the hit points so the monsters don't die from one hit. Why is that so difficult for you?
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Up - scale - hit - points.
There, now no more One-shotting. That wasn't very hard was it?
Either lower what you allow your players to do or up the hit points so the monsters don't die from one hit. Why is that so difficult for you?
I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you have not read the entirety of this thread. The fact is, people here have done that. Some reported that they maxed out the HP rolls and then tripled them. The fact is, Mythic increased damage dealt at an exponential rate, while HP is much more linear. This means that rocket tag begins at an earlier level, and at higher levels it is far more extreme. For my group, which likes Rocket Tag, this isn't an issue. However, a lot of the tricks that people used in every other AP are not enough in this one. In addition, as several people pointed out, you do not need to optimize in order to break the scale. My group, while not on the order of Captain Yesterday's, would be laughed out of any optimization thread.
I understand what you are trying to say, and in other AP's and environments it would make sense. However, your tone is insulting, especially since you have obviously not taken the time to actually read the evidence that people are observing. If you want to say the AP as written still works fine (as I have), then that's fine. But to say that there is some obvious solution that people just aren't taking is insulting to everyone in this thread, even those on your side.
Look, if at whatever point in the AP you get to where a PC is one shotting a monster that is supposed to be something other than a mook you need to do some math and adjust the hit points to a point where the one shot doesn't happen.
This can be done by toning down the numbers like the way mythic power attack works as written and by inceasing the hit points to a point where X- damage is only a fraction of said monsters total life.
I know others have done this, as mentioned up thread but if it didn't work then you need to do it some more. Maxing hit points didn't work, OK let's try tripling them, if that still doesn't do it then multiply them by a factor of 5 etc. until you get to something like the level you want for your game.
A combination of mythic nerfing and hit points increasing should solve the one shotting that many have complained about. You just need to find the right balance for your group based on the type of characters/ players in it.
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. . . . .
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oh sure super easy just add more hit points, while we're at it lets print more money because the dollar is weakening, that'll work im sure.
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A combination of mythic nerfing and hit points increasing should solve the one shotting that many have complained about. You just need to find the right balance for your group based on the type of characters/ players in it.
So the solution is to rework mythic abilities and game balance? Good idea, I think its been mentioned about 300 times on this thread.
too low an estimate seannoss i'm going to guess its closer to 600:)
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I get that the Paizo devs don't expect every party to be optimized so write their regular APs accordingly. A extremely short sighted view imo as I have yet to see a group where minimal optimization does not happen.Pick me! pick me! pick me! my wife and kids have yet to cast a buff spell, my wife has a witch with a high charisma and 10 dex, 12 con. my daughter has a Flaming Katana but insists on clawing everyone's eyes out (she is a catfolk with claws) in the other campaign she has a straight up Ranger with 11 wisdom and int 19 (she is an elf, we roll, no point buy) for healing i have a Dwarven Oracle (and with the Stargazer Archetype no less!)
so nope, we do not optimize at all
Believe it or not Captain for some here and elsewhere you would be considered optimizing just by having that 19 int. I don't think you do. Apparently it does not take much in the community to be called a optimizer. Being effective at the table us also a sign iof optimization as well IMO.
I don't see the point in doing that. That accomplishes the same thing as increasing HP: enemies can take more hits. The difference is this is more complicated.
By reducing the incoming damage by a percentage, DR, Resistance, Regeneration/Fast Healing, Healing, etc all remain relevant. If the players are dealing 600 points of damage per round, so you increase the hit points of Deskari to 7,420, what good is his DR 20/cold iron, epic, and good? His regeneration 30 (epic and good or deific) is only going to be healing 5% of one character's damage! But if, instead of giving him 10x more hit points (or in addition to, if your PCs really need a long fight) you instead reduce all incoming damage by 90%, then that DR 20 will reduce the 600 (now 60) points of incoming damage by a substantial amount, and he might actually be able to heal the damage inflicted by one PC each round.
that 19 intelligence is for a Ranger without any Archetype that has a wisdom of 11, other then skill ranks what benefit does it give her?
the reason she put the highest stat in intelligence is because she's a smart girl and wants her characters to reflect herself (she is only 10 after all) i'm also sure i said we rolled our stats and use sub-optimal tactics, take it how you will.
By reducing the incoming damage by a percentage, DR, Resistance, Regeneration/Fast Healing, Healing, etc all remain relevant. If the players are dealing 600 points of damage per round, so you increase the hit points of Deskari to 7,420, what good is his DR 20/cold iron, epic, and good? His regeneration 30 (epic and good or deific) is only going to be healing 5% of one character's damage! But if, instead of giving him 10x more hit points (or in addition to, if your PCs really need a long fight) you instead reduce all incoming damage by 90%, then that DR 20 will reduce the 600 (now 60) points of incoming damage by a substantial amount, and he might actually be able to heal the damage inflicted by one PC each round.I don't see the point in doing that. That accomplishes the same thing as increasing HP: enemies can take more hits. The difference is this is more complicated.
You could just multiply DR and Fast Healing by the same factor as you did HP. Faster at the table that way imo.
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too low an estimate seannoss i'm going to guess its closer to 600:)
By me alone.
Man, this thread just exploded today! So much for staying away from distractions while working... ^^;;
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It always gets busy when someone new arrives, fails to read what has come before in the discussion and then begins to tell us how bad we all are for not doing the stuff we mentioned pages before that we have already done. Because taking Power Attack and Improved Critical and then the mythic versions is super-duper-optimizing and people like that just can't roleplay, obviously.
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that 19 intelligence is for a Ranger without any Archetype that has a wisdom of 11, other then skill ranks what benefit does it give her?
the reason she put the highest stat in intelligence is because she's a smart girl and wants her characters to reflect herself (she is only 10 after all) i'm also sure i said we rolled our stats and use sub-optimal tactics, take it how you will.
I wish I could tell you why. To some not having every stat say 10-12 in is optimizing and min-maxing. Just be glad your not playing with them. I'm being told by a poster here that I cannot effectively roleplay if I want to build a effective (not min-maxed or optimized) character. My asking for Paizo to do a proper write up for npcs in the Wrath AP is a perfect example of my being a optimizer.
Action economy is a thing.
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We have 3 players. Having 5,6,7... is going to seriously reduce your ability to balance the AP without even getting into any other issues.
I wish I could tell you why. To some not having every stat say 10-12 in is optimizing and min-maxing. Just be glad your not playing with them. I'm being told by a poster here that I cannot effectively roleplay if I want to build a effective (not min-maxed or optimized) character. My asking for Paizo to do a proper write up for npcs in the Wrath AP is a perfect example of my being a optimizer.that 19 intelligence is for a Ranger without any Archetype that has a wisdom of 11, other then skill ranks what benefit does it give her?
the reason she put the highest stat in intelligence is because she's a smart girl and wants her characters to reflect herself (she is only 10 after all) i'm also sure i said we rolled our stats and use sub-optimal tactics, take it how you will.
Its all good:) i suppose since the APs creators assume everyones using point buy and we roll then we are "optimized" personally i think they should assune the 20 point buy as default for the APs. they've been using it for PFS and its been working pretty good there, i assume, having never taken part myself:)
sorry if i seemed combative:)
I wish I could tell you why. To some not having every stat say 10-12 in is optimizing and min-maxing. Just be glad your not playing with them. I'm being told by a poster here that I cannot effectively roleplay if I want to build a effective (not min-maxed or optimized) character. My asking for Paizo to do a proper write up for npcs in the Wrath AP is a perfect example of my being a optimizer.that 19 intelligence is for a Ranger without any Archetype that has a wisdom of 11, other then skill ranks what benefit does it give her?
the reason she put the highest stat in intelligence is because she's a smart girl and wants her characters to reflect herself (she is only 10 after all) i'm also sure i said we rolled our stats and use sub-optimal tactics, take it how you will.
Its all good:) i suppose since the APs creators assume everyones using point buy and we roll then we are "optimized" personally i think they should assune the 20 point buy as default for the APs. they've been using it for PFS and its been working pretty good there, i assume, having never taken part myself:)
sorry if i seemed combative:)
I believe it's 15 for AP's but personally I think that makes mad classes struggle and encourages sad classes. 20 with a 16 cap makes for a more balanced playing field. YMMV of course.
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All some of us wanted was for the ap to implement the mythic rules properly. Sure we can change it. We should not have to do do much reworking. The devs should have done a better job. If it meant optimizing the encounter than IMO they should have so. I buy aps to reduce my workload not increase it. It's a decent ap IMO. It could have been better.