Iron Will - Great Fortitude - Lighting Reflexes
Please answer from any perspective you like.
Do you take the save boosting feats?
Do you take all three?
Do you just boost your weak saves?
Thank you for you time.
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It depends largely on Class.
Speaking generally, if you have a Feat free and no other easy way to do it, you take Iron Will and/or Great Fortitude to increase weak saves. Lightning Reflexes is less worth it, generally (since Reflex saves tend to just avoid damage, rather than being outright screwed like many Fortitude and especially Will Saves), but you might grab it occasionally on a Fighter or something.
But let's look at the corebook classes, as a quick cross-section:
Barbarian: Might well not have a Feat free, and might well be using Superstition, making the save enhancers less needed.
Bard: Probably doesn't have a Feat free is a caster or archer Bard. A melee Bard might grab Great Fortitude.
Cleric: Feat-starved as a rule and only Reflex is low, making any of them less than needed.
Druid: See Cleric.
Fighter: Iron Will is a must-have. Lightning Reflexes will be not uncommon as well, though less so given Fighters incentives to have high Dex.
Monk: Why bother? All your saves are good.
Paladin: Only have 'low' Reflex, and have such good saves and a need for Feats in general that they should never take these.
Ranger: Iron Will's a good call, given their number of Feats and low Will Save. No others are needed.
Rogue: Iron Will is a must have, and Great Fortitude isn't a bad idea either.
Sorcerer and Wizard: Both are in need of Feats enough that Great Fortitude isn't usually a good idea, despite its potential usefulness.
So very few classes actually make extensive use of the save enhancers. They're nice, but not usually optimal.
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I would say that Iron Will is an absolute MUST have for any type of melee fighter simply because your base will save stinks and any spell caster in their right mind is going after the fighter with some fear/sleep/mind f&$# spell. Plus, like mentioned before, fighters have an extra feat or two to spare.
All the other characters, it depends.
I would advise iron will as well for any active animal companion as well. There are feats for animal companions as well to help them. Companions do get evasion at some point so lightning reflexes is only needed in order to have a better chance of save for no damage.
I like iron will (mostly prefer martials though, so that skews things a bit). Particularly with half elves with the dual minded alternate racial trait (which....is basically another iron will).
Throw in a trait, and maybe do WIS 12/CHA 8 on a point buy, and then you are a matching a wizard's will save. With that, you could even go around as a barbarian without superstition without feeling like a weak link.
It also opens up the path to improved iron will. I mean, sure, you are less likely to fail the save....but when you do, you can just get a redo 1/day. So you might be even harder to dominate than the wizard with that (..and with the barbarian again, you could grab clear mind to get another reroll 1/rage; make your GM cry when he spends he just can't get you charmed, even with fairly good DC's. Or is this the gambler's fallacy that you 'have' to roll well at least once on three rolls?)
Iron Will - Great Fortitude - Lighting Reflexes
Please answer from any perspective you like.
Do you take the save boosting feats?
Do you take all three?
Do you just boost your weak saves?
Iron Will is just about a "must have". Perhaps not with a class with WIS as main stat and a Good Will save, or a Paladin, but otherwise- YES! My Sorc has Iron Will, Improver Iron Will, Mythic iron will.
I'll also take a Trait for Will & Fort. My Bard has both and a background feat which adds to Fort.
Great Fort comes second.
My Paladin has none of these, but as a dwarf he has Steel Soul, which is better in some ways.
Lightning Reflexes is meh.
I don't take them at all as a Dwarf, just because Steel Soul is usually much better.
...until the monsters start throwing supernatural abilities, because steel soul (as well as hardy) both give saves vs. "spells and spell-like abilities".
I'll give one thing to barbarian superstition: it covers all its bases.
When playing a fighter, I usually just accept that my Will save will be bad and don't bother wasting a feat to boost it to only slightly less bad. But then, I like my characters to have weaknesses--it allows the rest of the party to shine. If I know a particular Will-targeting threat is coming, then I'll plan for it accordingly, usually by arranging for the party caster to cast protective spells.
If I do want to play the "must...hold...on...!"-type fighter, I'll go with the unbreakable archetype, take Iron Will, and keep twinking out that Will save until even the paladin raises an eyebrow, but it's a costly endeavor.
When playing a fighter, I usually just accept that my Will save will be bad and don't bother wasting a feat to boost it to only slightly less bad. But then, I like my characters to have weaknesses--it allows the rest of the party to shine. If I know a particular Will-targeting threat is coming, then I'll plan for it accordingly, usually by arranging for the party caster to cast protective spells.
If I do want to play the "must...hold...on...!"-type fighter, I'll go with the unbreakable archetype, take Iron Will, and keep twinking out that Will save until even the paladin raises an eyebrow, but it's a costly endeavor.
Eh, not that hard an endeavor. All the stuff I listed (half elf, iron will, trait, slight bit of wis) could all be done by level on depending on the character (I could certainly do it with a fighter, since I'd have room left for power attack).
Although I guess it is harder if you don't want your race restricted to half-elf.....Still, +6 will save on your poor one at level 1....
I was wondering this exact same thing the other day. When I'm looking through the feats for my characters, I nearly always skim right past these save boosts to get to the good stuff that's more specific to my character.
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There's ALWAYS something shinier than those feats.
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I have only one good save, a penalty to wisdom, multiclassed into a second class that penalizes will saves and have no definite plans to wear a cloak of resistance. Call me ballsy but I think I'll be OK.
*two months later*
I'm not OK.
But seriously, as a full caster with two bad saves I am not even thinking about those feats because there are so many other toys to play with.
I have a save fetish. I never played a Pathfinder character who did not take at least one of those feats.
I probably would not even play a class with two bad save progressions (as e.g. rogue, fighter, wizard), maybe a superstitious barbarian.
The feats maybe boring, but it is even more boring to be out of combat for an hour of game time or more.
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Well, which class and build can best make use of a fest varies. Two bad saves is not the end of the world. Pathfinder isn't a single player game, after all. As a caster, you can get by with abysmal saves for the same reason you can manage with a nonexistent armor class. By staying away from the fray. Aoe's that require a save or suck and which trigger before you can position yourself out of range or cast a defensive buff always suck. But single targeting effects are your friend. So is having good perception and a good initiative score. If you're offensive, you can use the first/surprise round to act first and do enough damage or cause an effective save or suck of your own that your enemies ability to do it to you is neutralized. If you're defensive as a caster you can apply a buff to cover one or both of those bad saves (hello protection from evil!).
Also, party makeup matters. Do you have a restorative divine caster on and? Are your melee characters or archers proving more of a threat than you (maybe because you failed the save)? These are potential opportunities for you, in actuality. Yes, sometimes you are out of the battle or even a few battles. But more often than not you'll be fine or just inconvenienced. Those feats are helpful, not necessary.
I have a save fetish. I never played a Pathfinder character who did not take at least one of those feats.
I probably would not even play a class with two bad save progressions (as e.g. rogue, fighter, wizard), maybe a superstitious barbarian.The feats maybe boring, but it is even more boring to be out of combat for an hour of game time or more.
Right. Boring as they are, spending the whole combat Confused- or worse, Dominated- is even more boring.
I've always held true that the best defense is a crazy awesome offence. If a feat can be better spent on something that will kill the mage or whatever before it can take out my char with a will/fort save, then that would be a better use of the feat.
If you can find me a feat that is a 100% one shot one kill, sure. Of course, that would make for a VERY boring combat.
I have taken them all, but very rarely. I see Deft Dodger, Resilient and Indomitable Faith much more often. I see them show up more often on animal companions and cohorts than on primary characters. I think that is mostly because cohorts and ACs are a little out of their league most of the time and are there to do one or two basic things, so you build them to be good at a few things and spend the rest of their resources on keeping them alive long enough to do something. The feats really just have too much competition. Like Fleet or Run they do something useful, but without adding any options or removing any restrictions, and most players want either focus or options rather than passive defense.
They are boring feats but i often take iron Will since i like the idea of my character as a strong willed type:)
Based on this sample.
- Great Fortitude
- YES-16%
- NO--78%
- Lighting Reflexes
- YES-6%
- NO--88%
- Iron Will
- YES-38%
- NO--63%
If I factor in my group of PCs from home (none have taken the feats)
- Great Fortitude
- YES-12%
- NO--83%
- Lighting Reflexes
- YES-5%
- NO--90%
- Iron Will
- YES-29%
- NO--71%
....Broken, only one of those sets adds up to 100%....
Now, I'll admit, if they were all a bit under, then I'd just think you didn't include people who said anything about that specific feat (nonapplicable results are often still statistically relevant). But the first set for iron will adds up to 101%......
Iron Will on a fighter and some Will & Fort save booster traits here and there, but it's all been pretty low level so we've had few feats to spare. I'd note that the PCs have seen more Reflex saves than Fort, and more Fort than Will, so the relative value of said boosters is possibly a matter of level and adventure type.
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I've not gone down the path to those feats yet (12 characters so far). However, I do know a summoner who took all three. For the one reason - to keep himself alive so his eidolon kept kicking. Certainly if you have the room they're ok to take. I tend to not have the room whenever I'm trying to do something.
Iron Will on a fighter and some Will & Fort save booster traits here and there, but it's all been pretty low level so we've had few feats to spare. I'd note that the PCs have seen more Reflex saves than Fort, and more Fort than Will, so the relative value of said boosters is possibly a matter of level and adventure type.
Although, it does call into question a simple implication: the general danger level of the various spells are
reflex<fort<will
Because when I think of reflex (in a fight), I think of varioius things like sticky sap that traps you in a square, or something to slip you up (as well as dodging fireballs). With fort, I think of poisons and drains. And with will? Domination, and at higher levels, monsters with abilities that steal your very soul and makes it impossible to revive you without wish. In summary: taking you out of the fight->crippling you over a long period of time-> high chance of TPK and needing to roll new characters.
These kinds of assumptions might not be entirely true (the bestiary of Pathfinder creatures grows all the time).....but it is true enough to make a plan or two around.
Based on this sample.
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[list]Iron Will
YES-38%
NO--63%
Strange. I counted seven posters who said YES to Iron Will, and Six who said NO.
A couple who didn;t really say one way or the other like Imbicatus who said his dwarves take Steel Soul instead. Gregory is a in between also, saying he sometimes takes them, but not often.
After you posted, we had another each YES & NO.
Yeah...I'd argue my post was a distinct "yes" on Iron Will, all told, as well as a "maybe" on Great Fortitude, and a "no" on Lightning Reflexes.
Yep, that's about what'd I would count you as.
I think this thread is really running pretty solid for Iron Will, and pretty solid against LR.
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I would argue that a high perception and initiative are as valuable (and potentially more so) than any of these feats. If Pathfinder is just a game of rocket tag, going first and nuking any threat before it can force you to make a save seems like a better strategy. Dead enemies (usually) don't force saves.
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Yeah...I'd argue my post was a distinct "yes" on Iron Will, all told, as well as a "maybe" on Great Fortitude, and a "no" on Lightning Reflexes.Yep, that's about what'd I would count you as.
I think this thread is really running pretty solid for Iron Will, and pretty solid against LR.
Is that because Dazing Reflex spells are rare among NPCs?
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Is that because Dazing Reflex spells are rare among NPCs?
Partially.
I'd personally attribute it to a combination of, first, Dex being way better as a stat than Wisdom (Initiative and AC, plus ranged attacks) which results in Reflex being a bit higher on average, and second, Reflex saves usually having much less severe penalties for failure (that's the one your point is a subset of).
The whole beauty of the Dazing Reflex strategy is that through the power of metamagic you purposely target an effect on the wrong save. Most casters have weaker reflex than fort or especially will, so hitting them with action denial targeting reflex (something sorely lacking in the CRB and with tons of support in the APG) is usually a good strategy.
I'm not sure how I would count myself if we were doing a poll, I've taken all of the feats on either an animal companion or cohort but none of them on a primary character. If I'm that worried about my saves on a character I usually play Dwarf, Half-Orc or Halfling to get racial save bonuses and take the save traits in my weak areas.
I would argue that a high perception and initiative are as valuable (and potentially more so) than any of these feats. If Pathfinder is just a game of rocket tag, going first and nuking any threat before it can force you to make a save seems like a better strategy. Dead enemies (usually) don't force saves.
if it was rocket tag that would make sense...
but it is usually not.
iron will is near constant for me. great fortitude is a sometimes, however i can usually find plenty of things to improve fort saves without great fortitude
....Broken, only one of those sets adds up to 100%....
Now, I'll admit, if they were all a bit under, then I'd just think you didn't include people who said anything about that specific feat (nonapplicable results are often still statistically relevant). But the first set for iron will adds up to 101%......
Yeah I noticed that. I was going to blame the small sample and rounding, but I found where I didn't set Cap. Darling's answers to no on Great Fortitude and Lighting Reflexes. the Missing precentages goes in the no column.
I did my best to interpret 16 post as a yes/no vote on each save. (I gave deadmanwalking 0.5 on great fortitude, probably should have just counted it as a 1 but it was conditional) My group(6 Players) skews it as none of us have ever taken any of the feats. But I felt including it upped my sample and may be more reflective of the average player. I did include both sets to show difference.
DrDeth, I had 6 yes, 10 no on Iron will. I counted unique posters who did not give a flat yes/no as a no, and my own anwers(no to all of them).[6/16 = 38%, 10/16 = 63%, 38+63=101]
If I get a minute today I will update the numbers with the new posters, I really wish we had a polling feature for the message boards.
Thank you guys.
Is that because Dazing Reflex spells are rare among NPCs?Yeah...I'd argue my post was a distinct "yes" on Iron Will, all told, as well as a "maybe" on Great Fortitude, and a "no" on Lightning Reflexes.Yep, that's about what'd I would count you as.
I think this thread is really running pretty solid for Iron Will, and pretty solid against LR.
I have never seen it.
DrDeth, I had 6 yes, 10 no on Iron will. I counted unique posters who did not give a flat yes/no as a no, and my own anwers(no to all of them).[6/16 = 38%, 10/16 = 63%, 38+63=101]
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Yeah, so what you should do is just not count "posters who did not give a flat yes/no ". I counted 8 yes and 7 no after new data.
DeadMan Walking, DrDeth, Ulfen, Lemeres, Davor*, Turgan, Cap.Darling, Mudfoot, Abraham= Yes.
Thats Nine.
Blahpers, Renegade*, Sk8tr, Pupsocket, Mayhem, kyrt, Olav, Broken = No. That's 8.
* rather weak support. Davor sez yes but only in one circumstance, Renegade sez no unless.... We could count them both as neutral.
Neutral or maybe= Imbicatus*, Gregory, Matthew, Righty.
* I am with him in that Dwarves can just take Steel Soul. But to me that's a Save feat, so he should count. Ifso, that's 10 vs 8.
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The save feats, much like Dodge and Weapon Focus, are dull but effective. They're a flat bonus to a stat that I will need at some point.
But here's the thing: I'm bad at picking good feats. It may just be because I never get to play full martial types and gravitate towards bards and inquisitors, but I never really know what feat to take. The only time I did was when I played an archer inquisitor, and pretty much needed to spend all my feats on the Point-Blank tree. On a Druid, the only real must-have I know of is Natural spell, and you need to already have picked at least two feats before you qualify. On a Bard, I go for Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, and then maybe metamagics like Still Spell (or the Whip Mastery tree).
All three feats are a good "safe choice". They're never the best choice, but they're always good enough that you never feel like you made the wrong choice.
Yeah, so what you should do is just not count "posters who did not give a flat yes/no ". I counted 8 yes and 7 no after new data.
I dropped out the people who just commented, but left in the people who discussed alternate strategies. I see them as a "no" because I am specifically looking at the three save feats and if they are not using the feats because there is something better, it sounds like a no.
Updated!!!!!
- 22 Responders
- Great Fortitude
- YES-18%
- NO--82%
- Lighting Reflexes
- YES-9%
- NO--91%
- Iron Will
- YES-50%
- NO--50%
My group added in (actually found out they had taken a few), 137ben's Player, and Righty's Summoner
- 29 Responders
- Great Fortitude
- YES-24%
- NO--76%
- Lighting Reflexes
- YES-14%
- NO--86%
- Iron Will
- YES-52%
- NO--48%
I have never taken any of the three on any character, nor do I plan to.
For me, they rank in the same territory of not seeming worth it as 3.0 Toughness. Weapon focus, sure I'm constantly attacking things. Dodge, okay, I'm frequently under attack. Both also lead to feats which can be worthwhile. The save booster feats are very situational, and lead only to feats I find worse.