A player with a Level 7 Sorcerer with Metamagic Master and Magical Lineage wants to cast a Maximised and Empowered Scorching Ray.
His argument is that the Base Level is 2, plus 3 for maximised, plus 2 for empowered. Total modifier equivalent to a Level 7 spell. But, Metamagic Master allows him to reduce the total spell level by 1 for EACH Metamagic feat used, plus the SAME again for Magical Lineage resulting in a total spell level of 3 (thus castable at Level 7).
I know he's wrong but I'm trying to decipher the rules so that I can explain how he is wrong.
Also, his math regarding the damage dealt seems odd. He is claiming each Scorching Ray (he can cast 2 at Level 7) can deal 49 pts of damage, which again to me sounds wrong. I think it should be 4d6, empowered to 4d9 and then maximized to result in 36 damage per each Ray, maximum. I am not aware of any other Sorceror Class abilities nor Feats that could increase this damage, unless he has some fire-affecting abilities that I'm not aware of.
Any tips on how to calculate getting out of this 'tangle', would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all !
Actually, it's not 2d6. It's 4d6/2.
are you saying the empowered part would not get maximized?
It definitely would not, but no, that's not what I was saying.
What I was trying to say was that when you Empower something, you don't add extra dice of damage. You roll normally, totaling the result, then multiply it by 1.5.
The Maximize Spell feat specifically says the following:
Therefore, a maximized, empowered scorching ray spell would deal 24 + (4d6/2) per ray. Had I rolled average damage on the dice (14) then I would deal a total of 31 damage (24 + 7).
A high level maximized fireball would deal 60 damage.
A high level empowered fireball would deal 10d6*1.5 damage.
A high level maximized empowered fireball would deal 60 + (10d6/2) damage.
Saying that an empowered fireball deals 15d6 damage may be easier, but it is wrong (in that it is not the designers' intent to do it that way) and messes up the math of averages.
One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Bold mine.
The spell's actual level is 1 lower when calculating the final adjusted level, not 1 lower for each metamagic applied to it.
I don't know where the metamagic master ability comes from, but I expect it functions the same, and I'm not sure if the two even stack, though they might.
As others said above, you should read how Maximize and Empower work. When both are used on the same spell, they apply separately, so if it would normally deal 4d6, then it instead deals 24+(4d6)/2 with both metamagics applied.
Awesome guys ! You've answered a lot of the 'headaches'...thanks so much.
Although it's clearly not -1 for every metamagic feat used (not sure where that was pulled out of, though I have a pretty good idea) stacking is not ruled out.
"Treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level" implies that other adjustments can be made before changes to the final adjusted level happen. Next, see the text for Wayang Spellhunter:
When you use the chosen spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.The text reads "a spell slot lower;" not "a spell slot lower per feat used." It also does not modify the final adjusted level.
Wayang Spellhunter grants -1 to the spell level, then Magical Lineage makes the final adjusted level 1 level lower. In this case it's 7-2 to a final level of 5.
Hi Katydid, completely concur. That's my understanding too.
On an added note, here's a curveball for you all: the DM in the Campaign in question, has allowed another player to use the old 3.5 feat; Arcane Thesis which essentially allowed you to cast spells as though they were were at Caster Level +2 AND apply a -1 spell level reduction PER Metamagic Feat applied.
IMHO the original ruling of this feat is broken else you could apply 4 Metamagic feats to a Scorching Ray and cast it as something insane like a Level 5 spell.
Although I heard there was a revised errata for the Player's Handbook II (between 2007 and 2009) which effectively nerfed Arcane Thesis down to "-1 *total* spell level reduction, regardless of the number of Metamagic feats applied" bringing it more in line with the effects of Magical Lineage.
Any thoughts on how that would work with either a Max'ed and Emp'ed Scorching Ray or Fireball (at say, a given Caster Level) ?
Mathematically 10x/2 = 5x, there is literally no difference between the 2.
Negative on that, Houston. (10d6)/2 are not the same as (10/2)d6.
For an easier view on this, compare 2d6/2 and 1d6:
1d6 will give you results of 1 2 3 4 5 6 (1/6 chance of each), for an average of 3.5
2d6/2 will give you:
1 (3/36 chance)
2 (7/36 chance)
3 (11/36 chance)
4 (9/36 chance)
5 (5/36 chance)
6 (1/36 chance)
for an average of 3.25.
Until you get an odd number of damage dice or something. What's more, doing it wrong messes with the odds (if not the averages). It's been discussed to death on these forums.