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So, Kobolds have an interesting feat:
You are adept at moving fast and staying hidden.
Prerequisites: Stealth 4 ranks, kobold.
Benefit: You take no penalty on Stealth checks when you move up to your full speed. You can use the run or charge action and remain hidden, taking a –10 penalty on the check to do so.
Normal: When moving greater than half speed up to your full speed, you take a –5 penalty on Stealth checks. When you are able to run or charge while using Stealth, you take a –20 penalty on the Stealth check.
My question is simple, how can you charge and remain hidden?
It would only really take some level of darkness, but yes, it does sound weird.
You can remain stealthed while charging if no one can see you (no light, target does not have darkvision for example) and you pass your stealth vs perception check for the noise. You cannot do it if the target has unobstructed line of sight to you and is capable of seeing you.
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I guess that makes sense, my main concern was this line from the stealth skill:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
But then again, the stealth skill has been riddled with inconsistencies for awhile.
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Charging isn't necessarily running and screaming, you can charge and stealth just as easily as you can run and stealth.
Apparently by being a Kobold!
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So, if a stealthed creature charges someone in 20% concealment, and succeeds on the stealth roll, then nobody has any idea where said creature is? Does the person who just got stabbed know there's a creature to the right of him? Or is it like
"Roll perception"
"23!"
"You got hit with an axe, but you have no idea from where, take 17 damage"
"... what?"
"Roll perception"
"23!"
"You got hit with an axe, but you have no idea from where, take 17 damage"
"... what?"
lol
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When I think of stealth charges, I think of the velosa rapters from Jurassic Park - how they charged through the brush without poking their heads above the flora.
I think your confusing things. It doesn't let you hide after the attack it lets you get from point a to without being seen.
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I think your confusing things. It doesn't let you hide after the attack it lets you get from point a to without being seen.
I guess that's one way of looking at it... but it says " You can use the run or charge action and remain hidden." So, The question more adapted to this is how do I use the charge action and remain hidden? Anyone could use the charge action and get all of the bonuses for stealthing for that attack, but to remain hidden...
Hmm the feat references a rule that doesn't exist. Per normal stealth rules you cannot run or charge.
The ability to charge from hiding. Double move then attack a flat footed target is pretry good.
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Charging in a surprise round can be done with just a move action O.o
But wow, This is direct conflict with the stealth rules!
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).
I think the Kobold Ambusher feat is worded poorly. I believe the "remain hidden" part really means you remain hidden while charging to your opponent. When you attack your attack still breaks stealth, but it would allow you to charge your opponent and attack them against their flat-footed AC. Also giving you a bonus to attack, and allowing you to avoid attacks of opportunity from them (assuming you were successfully hidden from them, Stealth higher than their Perception).
Nope. Special feature of the Scout (Rouge) Archetype is to charge and get sneak attack + feat above are the only two ways.
Edit: I think Claxon worded the intent of the feat very nicely.
Nope. Special feature of the Scout (Rouge) Archetype is to charge and get sneak attack + feat above are the only two ways.
Edit: I think Claxon worded the intent of the feat very nicely.
not true, you can charge into a flank position and get sneak attack
Don't you already have that though? Can't you normally charge someone and get a sneak attack off as the action that breaks stealth, without incuring attacks of oppertunity?
No, according to the Stealth skill charging or running normally breaks stealth.
Attacking also happens to break stealth. So normally, if you charge you would break stealth and not get a sneak attack at all.
With the kobold feat you can charge, remaining hidden during the movement and until your attack. When you attack your attack breaks stealth, but only after that attack is resolved. You can still get sneak attack from that attack.
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Attacking breaks stealth, but we all agree that attacking from stealth allows you to get Sneak Attacks.
Charging breaks stealth, shouldn't we all agree that charging from stealth allows you to get Sneak Attacks?
Aren't both of those a single action? Forgive me if I sound a little argumentative, but I kinda like the idea of charging and then still being in stealth mode afterwards...
Heretics get an ability (Judgement):
Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).
Attacking breaks stealth, but we all agree that attacking from stealth allows you to get a Sneak Attack.
It lets you get one sneak attack. ONE. The act of attacking breaks stealth, so the first attack benefits from stealth but others do not.
Charging breaks stealth when you start to move, so the enemy knows you're there before you ever get to them to attack.
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Attacking breaks stealth, but we all agree that attacking from stealth allows you to get a Sneak Attack.It lets you get one sneak attack. ONE. The act of attacking breaks stealth, so the first attack benefits from stealth but others do not.
Charging breaks stealth when you start to move, so the enemy knows you're there before you ever get to them to attack.
Yeah, that's why I said a sneak attack :P, sorry for the miscommunication on that bit :P
But isn't a charge a single action, just like an attack? We could just as easily say that "When you start to attack, you break stealth, and therefore do not get sneak attack unless they are flat footed, because by the time the attack lands, your no longer sneaking", right? Does breaking stealth happen at the start of said action or after said action is resolved?
This, of course, is assuming we are charging during a surprise round, IE only using a standard action to do so.
Attacking breaks stealth, but we all agree that attacking from stealth allows you to get a Sneak Attack.It lets you get one sneak attack. ONE. The act of attacking breaks stealth, so the first attack benefits from stealth but others do not.
Charging breaks stealth when you start to move, so the enemy knows you're there before you ever get to them to attack.
Yeah, that's why I said a sneak attack :P, sorry for the miscommunication on that bit :P
But isn't a charge a single action, just like an attack? We could just as easily say that "When you start to attack, you break stealth, and therefore do not get sneak attack unless they are flat footed, because by the time the attack lands, your no longer sneaking", right? Does breaking stealth happen at the start of said action or after said action is resolved?
This, of course, is assuming we are charging during a surprise round, IE only using a standard action to do so.
If you are charging in a surprise round there is no need for stealth, assuming your opponents do not act in the surprise round. They are flat-footed and you will get a sneak attack because of this. So thinking about it as a the standard action charge seems mostly irrelevant.
And while charge is technically it's single full round action the stealth descriptions say the two following things:
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Between these two things I conclude that you cannot even begin charging and be considered using stealth. But, if you are already using stealth and attack an opponent, you aren't "attacking" until the roll is made which breaks stealth and you cannot resume stealth because the rules say you can't use stealth while attacking. But because of the second quote you benefit from having stealth until the first attack is resolved.
I hope this is clear, as I'm typing this in a rush.
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I can see where your coming from, I'm still thinking that stealth is broken after the charge is resolved, same as attacking. There are several cases where an opponent may not be flat footed during the surprise round, but still not aware of your whereabouts.
So either the Kobold feat allows you to remain hidden (I would assume that's what is intended with using the run part of it), or it's a very situational ability. Wouldn't be the first time a feat did nothing, or very little. O.o
So, Kobolds have an interesting feat:
My question is simple, how can you charge and remain hidden?You are adept at moving fast and staying hidden.
Prerequisites: Stealth 4 ranks, kobold.
Benefit: You take no penalty on Stealth checks when you move up to your full speed. You can use the run or charge action and remain hidden, taking a –10 penalty on the check to do so.
Normal: When moving greater than half speed up to your full speed, you take a –5 penalty on Stealth checks. When you are able to run or charge while using Stealth, you take a –20 penalty on the Stealth check.
It would simply require the final square of your charge action to grant concealment of some kind or for you to have a constant source of it and for your to succeed in the skill check. The feat lets you do the rest.
Would still be hard as hell.
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Tucker's Kobolds. With the right DM a CR 1/3 creature can be turned into a weapon of mass destruction.
Would not work today in Pathfinder. The assumptions Tucker used back in AD&D when he was a GM have rules to cover them now that make that particular scenario impossible. He was able to handwave a ton of things that have specific rules today/
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I think it might still work if the players are trapped underground (ala low level and stoneshape). Traps are all pre-made. Dragon-God has cult of kobolds still... and a planar bound quasit resetting all the traps. Pit traps with poison on the spikes. Green slime on the handle bars. Gelatinous cubes in pits.
Resetting arrow traps. Give the dragon ranks in rogue or poison maker. Bonus points if he makes it from his own acid or venom. IMO you can still play low level baddies as opportunistic little terrorists. Attack the party at night. Create diversions. Trap them behind port cullis.
Use misdirection to fool them with illusions. Teleport mazes. Evil traps. Flooding rooms, etc.
And with all that you described it has nothing to do with a CR1/3 creature. Aside from the fact that Tucker's Kobolds was even originally more Hand of God than legitimacy, what you just described is as much about Kobolds being dangerous as a 1/3 CR as would be saying "A level 1 commoner can be devastating to a party of adventurers... if he had a few demons, some exceptional magic items, access to all kinds of poisons and had a deadly menagerie filling out his custom made death trap fortress..."
As for the original question, note the part of the line in the feat that has so far gone un-bolded.
You are adept at moving fast and staying hidden.
Prerequisites: Stealth 4 ranks, kobold.
Benefit: You take no penalty on Stealth checks when you move up to your full speed. You can use the run or charge action and remain hidden, taking a –10 penalty on the check to do so.
Normal: When moving greater than half speed up to your full speed, you take a –5 penalty on Stealth checks. When you are able to run or charge while using Stealth, you take a –20 penalty on the Stealth check.
Normally you cannot, BUT, when you are able to... you take x penalty. The times you might be able to have been mentioned already... darkness, invisibility, fogcloud, etc. Because those are situations when specific over general comes into play.
It is not saying you can stay hidden after an act that would instantly break stealth in conjunction with one of these movements.... in this case the attack portion of the charge, or finishing your run movement outside of concealment... but that you can perform the act and maintain stealth for it's duration, at a lower penalty AND without need of special circumstance.
So this feat gives multiple benefits;
First, it works like the Rogue Trick of Fast Stealth, allowing you to move at full speed instead of half, with no penalty.
Second, it allows you to maintain stealth for the duration of a charge, or during a run movement, without need for a special circumstance, and at only half of the penalty that such a situation would normally entail.
*shrug* Specific always trumps general. This feat is a specific case that takes precedence over the general stealth rules.
The issue isn't about whether specific trumps general, it's that the verbiage of the feat isn't clear.
The good thing is, if we FAQ it might get addressed since it's in a core book. Not that this is an incredibly prescient issue, and in lieu of actual developer commentary I know how I would run it.
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It is an out of the way feat, so I doubt an FAQ is going to come out for it. Maybe I should post it in the Race Guide errata thread, since the second line *must* be a mistake: There's no rule saying you can take -20 to your stealth roll in order to charge. I can't find any abilities or spells that would allow charging while using the stealth skill.
While invisibility may prevent you from being detected, when you use the charge action you cannot add your stealth skill roll to the perception check needed to pinpoint you. The same goes for forms of concealment and cover, the rule is very specific in the stealth skill, which says that you cannot charge and use the stealth skill. Not even the fast stealth ability allows for running or charging. So Hmmm....
Out of curiosity, why did this get moved to the advice forum?
Out of curiosity, why did this get moved to the advice forum?
That is the greatest mystery of all.