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So, I had wondered if there was a way for a PC to be a skilled scientist, and if there was a way to represent that.
I was thinking Knowledge(Chemistry, Genetics, Physics), but I don't even know if that is a choice. Knowledge seems to fall into the 10 categories, or it just doesn't exist.
There was the the idea of Profession(Scientist ), but the wisdom base just does not jive with me.
Of course, none of this would plausibly be PFS legal(even with guns, robots and lasers), but that is likely for another thread.
So, any advice on this?
Yea, I'd go for alchemist as well - there are a lot of discoveries fitting this theme.
Also craft construct would be nice!
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Let's see now. Scientist is a pretty wide term, of course, but I think I know what you're shooting for.
Knowledge (Engineering) to represent understanding mathematics and physics.
Knowledge (Nature) to represent an understanding of biology and chemistry.
Craft (Alchemy) to represent an understanding of applied chemistry.
Heal to represent an understanding of applied biology.
Aside from those you could probably do some messing around with profession and so forth :)
So a level 2-4 expert with the above skills and skill focus (field of specialization) would represent a scientist fairly well, as I see it.
Hope it helps.
-Nearyn
I was hoping I could find you a trait that let you use Int for Profession but no such luck, alas.
That said, not 100% sure you need it.
Someone (an Alchemist?) with Craft: Alchemy has "Chemistry" (you can make pseudo-knowledge checks about alchemical things and such).
Physics can be represented by Kn. Engineering and then fluffed the rest of the way.
Genetics is a bit harder, but it could be represented in a simple sense (basic Biology) by Heal.
So maybe a Mindchemist?
Would it be industrial development or some other complicated field?
I'd think they could create a tank, since clockworks could be applied to say, wagons. Put a big piped spring with a medium sized bomb in it and you got yourself a tank.
Same principle for warfare...bazooka that way. Though these concepts would be more of "inventor" type thing.
I'd say Knowledge (Nature) for knowledge of and understanding of biology.
Heal for applied biology.
Like a medical student reading and understanding alot of things (Knowledge; int based), but then having to do alot of practical exercises and work on dummies and even corpses volunteered for scientific purposes, in order to pass as a surgeon. The practical part of working on the body then takes the shape of heal (experience; wis based)
That'd be my take on it, anyway :)
-Nearyn
Wisdom, as a standard for understanding biology, seems off to me.
By the way, I am in no way an expert in any of these fields of study.
Just so everyone knows.
I'm generally opposed to creating new skills, as that acts as a stealth nerf to all existing skills and makes skill monkey or encyclopedia even a less viable character concept. This is particularly an issue in a lot of sci-fi games (designed by and for nerds), which tend to have upwards of a dozen "science" skills (because OBVIOUSLY biology and biochemistry are different) and a single "shoot things" skill that covers everything from a crossbow to a rocket launcher.
Knowledge (nature) should cover the "natural" sciences up to and including chemistry, biology, geology, and astronomy. Knowledge (engineering) should cover the theory of almost any applied science.
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Good one with that trait.
I suppose the Vivisectionist's Cruel Anatomist ability works too.
Perhaps creating a list of scientific fields of study, and the Knowledge(or other) skill that would apply, and presenting it to my DM might be a good idea.
I really want to be sure I have the right skills chosen though.
If possible, I would like to use this with my current Vivisectionist/Mindchemist, though I also have thoughts for future PCs.
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In a world where magic actually works why would someone study science? A 1st level cleric can instantly heal a deadly wound that may otherwise kill someone. By 5th level they are restoring a blind person’s sight and curing cancer. By 7th level they are able to neutralize poison and cure almost any medical condition except for death. In a world where magic works traditional doctors are going to be for those who cannot afford magical healing.
Magic has the ability to alter just about anything so its laws obviously triumph the laws of science. The goal of a true scientist is to figure out the way the universe works. In order to do this the scientist must also understand the laws of magic or he is no true scientist. It is pretty clear if you want to be a scientist in the game you need to play an intelligence based class that has every knowledge skill as a class skill, and that studies magic. The obvious choice would be to play a wizard.
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In a world where magic actually works why would someone study science?
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In a world where magic actually works why would someone study science? A 1st level cleric can instantly heal a deadly wound that may otherwise kill someone. By 5th level they are restoring a blind person’s sight and curing cancer. By 7th level they are able to neutralize poison and cure almost any medical condition except for death. In a world where magic works traditional doctors are going to be for those who cannot afford magical healing.
Magic has the ability to alter just about anything so its laws obviously triumph the laws of science. The goal of a true scientist is to figure out the way the universe works. In order to do this the scientist must also understand the laws of magic or he is no true scientist. It is pretty clear if you want to be a scientist in the game you need to play an intelligence based class that has every knowledge skill as a class skill, and that studies magic. The obvious choice would be to play a wizard.
I know your "screw science, just shut up and be a Wizard, and use magic!" response might not be intended to be mean, but it seems so.
Also, the magic dead country of Alkenstar, birthplace of firearms, might have need of scientific study.
In a world where magic actually works why would someone study science?
Because knowledge skills can still be useful to affect other things.
To use magic properly -- for example, to make magic items -- you need appropriate craft skills. Craft skills include the reduction to practice of things learned via knowledge skills. (Basically, yesterday's knowledge(nature) is today's heal; yesterday's knowledge(alchemy) is today's craft(metalworking) or even spellcraft.)
In a world where magic actually works why would someone study science? A 1st level cleric can instantly heal a deadly wound that may otherwise kill someone. By 5th level they are restoring a blind person’s sight and curing cancer. By 7th level they are able to neutralize poison and cure almost any medical condition except for death. In a world where magic works traditional doctors are going to be for those who cannot afford magical healing.
Magic has the ability to alter just about anything so its laws obviously triumph the laws of science. The goal of a true scientist is to figure out the way the universe works. In order to do this the scientist must also understand the laws of magic or he is no true scientist. It is pretty clear if you want to be a scientist in the game you need to play an intelligence based class that has every knowledge skill as a class skill, and that studies magic. The obvious choice would be to play a wizard.
I know your "screw science, just shut up and be a Wizard, and use magic!" response might not be intended to be mean, but it seems so.
Also, the magic dead country of Alkenstar, birthplace of firearms, might have need of scientific study.
I apologize if I came off as mean that was not my intention. What I am trying to say is that in a world where magic is real scientific theory will probably not be that well developed. If your character is from the modern world or some other culture that would work better. A native scientist is going to be unlikely because magic alters too much. Without understanding magic a native scientist is going to be like a modern scientist who ignores physics. Christopher Stasheff has a couple of series that deal with this, and I highly recommend reading them.
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What I am trying to say is that in a world where magic is real scientific theory will probably not be that well developed. If your character is from the modern world or some other culture that would work better. A native scientist is going to be unlikely because magic alters too much. Without understanding magic a native scientist is going to be like a modern scientist who ignores physics.
This assumes that magic doesn't play by rules, which the existence of Knowledge (Arcana) seems to disagree with. The rules by which magic plays tend to be handwaved away (e.g., the vague spell-component pouch), but presumably there's a reason that bat guano is needed to cast a fireball and I can't just substitute dog muck. (If you don't like that example because it's so first edition, why onyx and not opal for animate dead?) By looking at the gestures a spellcaster is making, you can infer the spell he's casting, even if you don't know the spell yourself. I infer from this that there's a relationship between the gesture, the spell, and the effect, even if it's not mentioned explicitly in the core rulebook.
So why bat guano? That will get us back into Knowledge (alchemy) and raise the possibility of a scientific inquiry. I could easily see a wizard in his tower trying everything from aardvark poop to yeti turds trying to figure out what the exact relationship is between bats and fireballs.
.... and that's science.
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For the most part, "Science" skills would fall under the Craft (INT) or Profession(WIS) catagories. I would avoid adding additional Knowledge skills. Though the only difference between Craft and Knowledge is determining which is considered a class skill.
In our Carrion Crown one character did have "Profession (CSI)" as a catch all for finding and understanding forensic information. Additional Knowledge and Craft skill checks were made to get detailed info on any clue.
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I'd actually probably go bard here. Knowledge skills would be important, and, if you are going the professor route, Perform (oratory) wouldn't hurt. The Archivist archetype also seems to fit the flavor, with the one exception of a bonus to spellcraft.
Science requires the rules stay the same, and any system where a god can just decide that dog doodo is what makes fireballs work and it suddenly tossing guano gets you nothing firewise doesn't fit. There are too many reality changing entities (including wizards) in the game.
First, you're wrong. Science is very good at figuring out why and how rules vary. That is, in fact, its entire reason for existence, looking at a situation that superficially looks like a changing reality and inferring the underlying consistent system. In prehistory, protoscientists learned that the Nile would flood when that particular star rose over that rock,.... and in the early modern period, we learned that when the barometer drops, that means it's probably going to rain. Now we've got computers that will predict the weather with much greater accuracy, but it's still looking at underlying regularities in a complex system.
Second, I've seen no evidence that wizards, or even gods, can actually change reality beyond the limitations imposed by the rules of magic.
Be careful with what your DM would define as « Science » in a fantasy setting. Most of what is called “Chemistry, Genetics and Physics” in the “real world” currently are just impossible to have existing as they do in any fantasy world.
Otherwise everything has to be “magic-not-covered-with-science”.
Modern science can’t work with many Ex ability (supposed not magical) just don’t fit the “laws of science”: Regeneration, Breath Weapons, the Heal Skill options, Giants, most Large or bigger flying creatures, special materials, most alchemical items, some feats, some talents, etc.
There are so many of these basic things that are just “impossible” for “real-science” your DM and you must define what covers what.
I recommend you use the existing knowledge, craft and profession skills but see them as they were seen in the Middle Ages and Renaissance: Alchemy was Chemistry (and some Genetics and Physics), Nature (called Natural Science) was Genetics (and some Chemistry), Engineering (Most called Architecture) was Applied Physics (and some Mechanics) and The Planes (probably the closest to Astronomy) was Theoretical Physics.
Of course I'm simplifying but I hope you catch my drift.
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Changing the laws of reality is limited in scale, gods can do it just like wizards only on a slightly larger scale. However, even the gods are bound rules and laws and casters more tightly so.
Science will always try to solve problems through rational explanation which in a world full of magic would often involve relating common magical events and categorizing them as necessary.
One thing I would point out is that science usually involves out of need, whether for better crops, better weapons or better medicine. When you have an alternate solution to these problems, i.e. magic, the rate of scientific development would slow, probably dramatically.
Alkenstar is an interesting case as magic is not reliable and in some areas doesn't work at all meaning alternatives had to be found. I would imagine the scientists of Alkenstar have a number alternative applications aside from gunpowder and cannons, consider herbalism and alchemy as options, from the non-magical side.
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Alchemist is made for this. They certainly dabble in magic, but the basic attitude and thought process is vastly more scientific than anyone else's and it's the part they care about. The magic is just a means to an end.
I strongly recommend reading City of the Fallen Sky or The Secret of the Rose and Glove (and, to a lesser extent, its sequels) for some sample Alchemists and the degree to which they care about science rather than magic per se.
Both are very good inspirations for a more scientific character within the setting.
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Clarke's Law is that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
The first corollary, from a source I don't recall, is that any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from science.
Alchemists and Wizards (and to a lesser extent, Magi) can both be seen as applying the scientific method to magic.
Surely, someone in Golarion must be studying this.
Perhaps. But he wouldn't be a scientist, he would be a quack. In our world (one that doesn't have magic) magical explanations for things is quackery. In Golarion, anyone who studied natural philosophy who didn't examine the role of magic would be similarly crazy. Magic is woven into the world. Magic is Science on Golarion.
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Surely, someone in Golarion must be studying this.
Perhaps. But he wouldn't be a scientist, he would be a quack. In our world (one that doesn't have magic) magical explanations for things is quackery. In Golarion, anyone who studied natural philosophy who didn't examine the role of magic would be similarly crazy. Magic is woven into the world. Magic is Science on Golarion.
Did I mention the magic dead country of Alkenstar?
Also, I get what you are saying, but the "Stop screwing around with this stupid "science" and just focus on magic, you idiot!" comments are getting tiresome.
There are some third party classes. Intejection Games has a Tinker class that makes automatons. There is also a Gadgeteer class, also by Interjection Games.
Surely, someone in Golarion must be studying this.
Perhaps. But he wouldn't be a scientist, he would be a quack. In our world (one that doesn't have magic) magical explanations for things is quackery. In Golarion, anyone who studied natural philosophy who didn't examine the role of magic would be similarly crazy.
No more than a biologist who didn't examine the role of physics would be similarly crazy.
There's lots of not-magic in the world of Golarion, which operates by its own rules. There's lots of magic in the world, while also operates on its own rules. And the division between the two also operates by a third set of rules.
Any or all of those three sets of rules can be studied using science. And, in fact, any proper study of of any of those rules would almost certainly involve science, because science is one of the best ways humans have for understanding complex systems (of which magic demonstrably is one, in Golarion).
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I almost hesitate to recommend it because it is a truly strange piece of fanfic, but I find it highly entertaining:
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
It postulates what Harry Potter would be if he were a snarky child science prodigy instead of just an average kid with a good heart when he received his letter from Hogwarts. A pretty decent take on the scientific method vs. magic.
I almost hesitate to recommend it because it is a truly strange piece of fanfic, but I find it highly entertaining:
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
It postulates what Harry Potter would be if he were a snarky child science prodigy instead of just an average kid with a good heart when he received his letter from Hogwarts. A pretty decent take on the scientific method vs. magic.
Bit late to comment on this but I got around to picking it up about a week ago and ran through all the current chapters and it's pretty great. Thanks for introducing me to it.
I was thinking, without the magic aspect.
Surely, someone in Golarion must be studying this.
Would they, though? In a world where magic demonstrably exists, the scientists would be studying magic along with everything that RL scientists do.
Being a scientist in Golarion and focusing on 'nonmagical science' would be like a RL physicist avoiding all the stuff about electrons. Weird, no clear reason for it, and it'd seriously hold you back.
(Oops. I pounced on this and didn't realize Dave J caught it first. I'll leave it up so you can point and laugh.)
gods don't change the laws of nature, they just have a better understanding of how to manipulate the laws of nature.
Wisdom is actually relatively sensible, considering the number of early academics and scientists who were also (or actually) philosophers.
So Profession (philosophy) makes sense, as well.