Little late to the party, and I actually agree very strongly that we need more eye content for those who enjoy looking at men, and that we should be treating the sexuality of male deities as parts of their characters equally important to that of female deities.
All of that said, I'd like to reiterate the point that a lot of the stuff out there about the sex lives of female deities is either fan speculation, or messageboard comments in response to fan questions. While I think there is an imbalance in the material as presented in books, if more people start asking about the love lives of male deities, you're probably going to get more information about them. :-)
The existing deities are one thing, but I also think it would be good to have a male sex deity, even if he's a very minor one. We have Calistria on the female side. Cayden doesn't really count and he can't be all things. Arshea is transgendered so it's a bit closer, but still quite apart.
Having a fully male Empyreal or something may be a good solution, where lust is about wanting to connect with someone and sex drive is from physical health rather than manipulativeness, ill will (stinging wasps), innuendo, information gathering, and such.
Basically, it would be more similar to the old Greek form of Eros where he was a young adult rather than a small boy:
in early Greek poetry and art, Eros was depicted as an adult male who embodies sexual power.
"Sexual power" is rather vague and vaguely ominous. I also sounds like a Roman mentality which I'm not sure the early Greek culture had so much of (the all-dominant subjugating male), although it's certainly possible (I know less about ancient Greece than about ancient Rome).
There is also Antinous, the last Roman god, who was worshipped precisely for his beauty. He was a sort of fertility god because he represented sexual desire and also what was considered ideal male beauty. He was also the lover of the emperor Hadrian.
Speaking to the point of why is there no male version of Calistra aka a male god of lust and sex I think as follows (which is just my personal opinion and I don't claim to know the thoughts or feelings of everyone):
The idea of a beautiful woman who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is generally attractive to straight men, especially young straight men.
The idea of a good looking man who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is less attractive to most women. This may be societal or biological but it is generally accepted to be true.
Thus a goddess like Calistra could easily have a very wide following whereas a "male version" (Hey Ladies!) would be pretty niche.
I know gods in Golarion don't "need" to be worshiped, they are not the incarnation of their worshipers desires. But it seems that gods that don't represent widespread desires would be pretty rare.
Check out the whole list here. Maybe there's a look you like?Out of that list, I picked these two as the best-looking:
Ralph would be cuter with a smaller nose.
That's the same pic I linked to and discussed on the first page.Seductive like this?
(Not ours, alas. Also, maybe NSFW for some people -- dude doesn't have any salient parts showing, but he is nude.)
Oh, sorry. Generally, I don't click on links on my work computer. :-)
The idea of a beautiful woman who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is generally attractive to straight men, especially young straight men.
The idea of a good looking man who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is less attractive to most women. This may be societal or biological but it is generally accepted to be true.
Thus a goddess like Calistra could easily have a very wide following whereas a "male version" (Hey Ladies!) would be pretty niche.
There are also gay men. Plus, not everything has to be exactly like our world, right?
I know gods in Golarion don't "need" to be worshiped, they are not the incarnation of their worshipers desires. But it seems that gods that don't represent widespread desires would be pretty rare.
Arshea is more niche than what I'm talking about. Two actual gods already existed in Western culture:
Eros
Antinous
Antinous in particular was quite popular. Thousands of statues were made and placed all over Roman territories. Eros was also an important figure. Only later on did he morph into a boy. Originally he was a young man.
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Check out the whole list here. Maybe there's a look you like?Out of that list, I picked these two as the best-looking:
Ralph would be cuter with a smaller nose.
So, SRS, would it be reasonable to say that you like your men "boyish" in appearance? Youthful?
Because I'm wondering if that's something that is attempted to move away from in the art. We talk about all the scowls. Paizo art tends to be full of action. Lots of combat, lots of shouting, I get the sense that Golarion is a very loud place. Heck, the gear is loud, too, with all these weapons and tools and buckles and gear hanging off the iconics in all directions. Honestly, I'm surprised the iconics can walk across a room without getting snagged and caught on every piece of furniture in the place. And, it's gritty. You've got battle scars, a lack of the clean-shaven, and you get the impression that most of the characters haven't bathed in a day or so.
Boyish doesn't connote badass. It's not tough-as-nails that a permascowl and a large jawline imply. I'm reminded of (please forgive me) Rob Liefeld, just with more detail, more nuance, more consistency (but still with a bizarre lack of ankles).
Now, I'll be honest, I don't think any of this is necessary. There's no reason why a youthful, boyish character can't be found in this place, participating in the world full-tilt. I could very easily see a beautiful celestial have such a form--or a devil. But even past that, fighters and rogues can be young. Any adventurer could still have that glow about them. In a world full of grit and grunts, it would be a play against type, and thus quite welcome.
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Because I'm wondering if that's something that is attempted to move away from in the art. We talk about all the scowls. Paizo art tends to be full of action. Lots of combat, lots of shouting, I get the sense that Golarion is a very loud place. Heck, the gear is loud, too, with all these weapons and tools and buckles and gear hanging off the iconics in all directions. Honestly, I'm surprised the iconics can walk across a room without getting snagged and caught on every piece of furniture in the place. And, it's gritty. You've got battle scars, a lack of the clean-shaven, and you get the impression that most of the characters haven't bathed in a day or so.
I'm going to point out that this is true . Female NPCs, with the sometime exception of Amiri, invariably have their makeup done, their hair flowing in shining waves like they're in a shampoo commercial, flawless milky skin, and a fresh bikini wax.
Somehow 'realism' and 'grit' only apply to males in Golarion.*
*EDIT: This is an industry-wide problem; I certainly don't want to imply Paizo is unique in this regard. Virtually all mainstream fantasy art needs a gaze adjustment.
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The idea of a good looking man who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is less attractive to most women. This may be societal or biological but it is generally accepted to be true.
A lot of the accepted "truths" about what women are interested in don't distinguish between what they like fantasizing about versus what they actually want or are willing to do in real life, spring from the answers researchers got to questions framed based on what they knew about male sexuality, and aren't necessarily trustworthy because they don't compensate for the negative consequences women have suffered (and still do suffer) for answering honestly.
More carefully framed studies about casual sex that account for those issues often get interest levels from female study participants that approach men's.
All of which is to say that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to assume that a male god who just wants sex (assuming he's safe to be with, and a skilled and respectful partner) is necessarily an unattractive idea to female audiences.
Check out the whole list here. Maybe there's a look you like?Out of that list, I picked these two as the best-looking:
Ralph would be cuter with a smaller nose.
So, SRS, would it be reasonable to say that you like your men "boyish" in appearance? Youthful?
Because I'm wondering if that's something that is attempted to move away from in the art. We talk about all the scowls. Paizo art tends to be full of action. Lots of combat, lots of shouting, I get the sense that Golarion is a very loud place. Heck, the gear is loud, too, with all these weapons and tools and buckles and gear hanging off the iconics in all directions. Honestly, I'm surprised the iconics can walk across a room without getting snagged and caught on every piece of furniture in the place. And, it's gritty. You've got battle scars, a lack of the clean-shaven, and you get the impression that most of the characters haven't bathed in a day or so.
Boyish doesn't connote badass. It's not tough-as-nails that a permascowl and a large jawline imply. I'm reminded of (please forgive me) Rob Liefeld, just with more detail, more nuance, more consistency (but still with a bizarre lack of ankles).
Now, I'll be honest, I don't think any of this is necessary. There's no reason why a youthful, boyish character can't be found in this place, participating in the world full-tilt. I could very easily see a beautiful celestial have such a form--or a devil. But even past that, fighters and rogues can be young. Any adventurer could still have that glow about them. In a world full of grit and grunts, it would be a play against type, and thus quite welcome.
Boyish can be a lot of things. Donatello's David sculpture is a great example of what I definitely don't like. I remember reading art critics who talked about how beautiful that sculpture is. I've always considered it ugly, and not just because it's an actual boy instead of a young man (although that doesn't help). The body and face are not well-proportioned.
The Antinous sculpture I linked to is a lot better. The Delphi version is also good. The boyish jock look is nice. Antinous sculptures always feature a nice muscular body. It's not overly muscular but it's not scrawny either. Some depictions feature a big nose, but others are better proportioned.
A guy can be beautiful and pretty without looking like a woman. Clear skin (no wrinkles, fissures, beard stubble, and chin cleft), full lips, large eyes, curve in the back, decent-sized nipples, an inviting expression (like a warm smile), clothing (if any -- lol) that's not bulky and harsh (but instead is form-fitting)... things like this are good. Basically, depict an athlete with model-perfect features at around 18-19 and there you go. Don't expect a 19 year old Michael Phelps to get many second looks. lol
This is a good place to start. He's a little older here than what's optimal, but still cute:
Ooo... Here he is younger. Gorgeous!
Somehow 'realism' and 'grit' only apply to males in Golarion.
This.
(Although I heard the same argument when playing Star Wars Saga and trying to make a cute guy PC... and I clearly documented the dichotomy with my long post about the art in one of its books. I was told that the campaign was going to be "gritty".)
The idea of a good looking man who just wants to have sex with you but nothing else is less attractive to most women. This may be societal or biological but it is generally accepted to be true.A lot of the accepted "truths" about what women are interested in don't distinguish between what they like fantasizing about versus what they actually want or are willing to do in real life, spring from the answers researchers got to questions framed based on what they knew about male sexuality, and aren't necessarily trustworthy because they don't compensate for the negative consequences women have suffered (and still do suffer) for answering honestly.
More carefully framed studies about casual sex that account for those issues often get interest levels from female study participants that approach men's.
All of which is to say that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to assume that a male god who just wants sex (assuming he's safe to be with, and a skilled and respectful partner) is necessarily an unattractive idea to female audiences.
I don't disagree, I just think it is likely less attractive than the idea is to men. That is, however, just me. I have no problem with the idea of the lovable gigolo as a god, I was just hypothesizing why such a concept is not common in fantasy games.
Oh, sorry. Generally, I don't click on links on my work computer. :-)
No problem. It is a very beautifully done piece of art even though it doesn't qualify as hot to me.
I don't disagree, I just think it is likely less attractive than the idea is to men.
Heterosexual men, you mean.
I shopped Ralph Ippolito a little just for kicks.
Cuter, but no Gauthier.
Here's a blog post I didn't write but happened across that takes a look at the Pools of Darkness cover and things we've been discussing.
Here's that picture from the Saga book that I said is the most obvious.
Compare the males and females.
Here is a human male for comparison, from the next page.
And here are more "gritty" and "heroic" (monstrous) males to compare to the seductresses.
Compare this photo with this one.
And, beyond all that there are the ugly truly monstrous-looking males that usually serve as speed bumps in fantasy gaming. Most amusing at the "races" that have no females, just ugly males to serve as cannon fodder. In comparison with a Cosmopolitan girl and her friend.
Male vs. female. And again. And one more time.
But wait! Surely there are some sexy young dudes in this book, right? Here they are. lol
All of which is to say that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to assume that a male god who just wants sex (assuming he's safe to be with, and a skilled and respectful partner) is necessarily an unattractive idea to female audiences.
Bolding mine. I've got to point out a difference between straight men and women. This passage isn't necessarily what men look for in a mate.
Take Calistria, for example. She's skilled, suredly. But is she safe to be with? Is she respectful? Not so much. But the typical guy won't care, she's hot.
Now, I think this difference is more societal in nature. Men are supposed to be the aggressors. They're supposed to be able to take on anything a woman throws at them. So, she doesn't have to be respectful or safe, because he'll come out okay on the other side anyway. Or maybe she is actually perilous, but then surviving the encounter only proves one's worth as a man. But a woman would end up shouldering much more of the burden of a He-Calistria. There's a real chance that he would break his partner and toss her away callously. And if he's a problem, then even surviving the encounter wouldn't add to a woman's worth. She'd be tainted for having been with him.
That double standard affects what makes for a good male partner, versus a female partner. I personally don't think it should exist, and both a man-killer and a lady-killer should be scorned, but that's not what society teaches, unfortunately.
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A guy can be beautiful and pretty without looking like a woman. Clear skin (no wrinkles, fissures, beard stubble, and chin cleft), full lips, large eyes, curve in the back, decent-sized nipples, an inviting expression (like a warm smile), clothing (if any -- lol) that's not bulky and harsh (but instead is form-fitting)... things like this are good. Basically, depict an athlete with model-perfect features at around 18-19 and there you go. Don't expect a 19 year old Michael Phelps to get many second looks. lol
This passage really strikes me as interesting. If I were to describe what I would want in an attractive woman, I'd say... clear skin, full lips, large eyes, a curve in the back, decent-sized nipples, and an inviting expression. In short, the guy you describe exactly "looks like a woman" to me, if I'm being shallow.
Now, there's a reason for all this. Clear skin indicates youth and health. And dilated pupils, a swelling of the lips, lordosis, and enhanced nipple color and definition are all indications of sexual arousal, for all people. And inviting expression means that we can partake of that arousal.
So no matter what our preferred gender is, we're looking for people who want it, and want it from us.
Furthermore, just because I'm straight doesn't mean I'm not looking for attractive features in men, it's just that the features I'm looking for aren't tied to sex. First, men who show the opposite features--smaller squinty eyes, thin lips, firm straight back, grizzled expression--give the impression of mentors, men who are more used to the battlefield than the bedroom. That's very attractive to other straight men, because they have no use for his bedroom skills, but lots of use for his battlefield skills. Could I have a good successful hunt with John Wayne? Tommy Lee Jones? Heck, yeah! So maybe, just maybe, these "ugly" men are actually attractive to straight men--just not as flirting potential.
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So female NPCs are drawn to be attractive to straight males, and male NPCs are drawn to be attractive to straight males ...
Wasn't the whole point of this thread in the first place that the industry caters to the straight male audience? It's hardly news to me that straight men are happy with the art as it is.
So female NPCs are drawn to be attractive to straight males, and male NPCs are drawn to be attractive to straight males ...
Wasn't the whole point of this thread in the first place that the industry caters to the straight male audience? It's hardly news to me that straight men are happy with the art as it is.
Yup! I'm not disagreeing with the existence of the problem, I'm just trying to explore its scope. It still needs fixing, and I'd love to help out with that.
I can't do it from a point of view of "what do people who are attracted to men want?" That's best left to folks like you and SRS. I'm just trying to deconstruct the straight male POV, because that one, I've got experience with.
ETA: Joana, do you agree with SRS's definition of male beauty? Is that what you're interested in? Or would you prefer a different look?
In short, Paizo appears to suffer from a distinct lack of attractive male illustrations in general. Clearly a trend that should be remedied in the future...
Well, it's not really only Paizo - heroic fantasy game art in general produces some pretty ugly dudes. I could probably point to exceptions and they'd measure in the single digits.
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I'm not certain that a depiction of male beauty need necessarily be young and soft. While I agree that depictions of Cayden, Valeros, et al, are not depicted in a way that conveys that invites affection, I think it is certainly possible to depict a male NPC with a bulkier frame (and maybe even *gasp* body hair) as beautiful. While I think some of the links we have seen on this thread get at the right idea, they invariably depict a male form that has had male secondary sexual characteristics minimized as much as possible.
There are, of course, multiple perspectives of beauty, and I think if Paizo wanted to embrace that in the artwork, it needn't be confined to a single ideal or type.
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Lymnieris, swimmer's build or other?
What kind of decor would you expect to find in that Empyreal Lord's palace in Heaven that would be most welcoming?
Fine eyebrows or tattoos in place of eyebrows due to complete hairlessness?
ONE HOUR or two, maybe three at absolute maximum
This is happening.
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I perfectly agree that we need more diversity in body types across the board. However, I don't think beauty and attractiveness is necessarily something strictly limited to physical attributes. A lot of it has to do with presentation. Most of these male characters are limited to "powerful" or "practical" stances/poses, which isn't very appealing.
You can have more bulky and muscular character still presented in an "inviting" or "beautiful" fashion. Personally, I think the guys that are big muscles and/or fatty could stand to be depicted as stuff other than "brutes". We need some warm, friendly, handsome lumberjacks and farmers with some BUILD.
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Basically, depict an athlete with model-perfect features at around 18-19 and there you go. Don't expect a 19 year old Michael Phelps to get many second looks. lol
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I'm 50 (straight, female). I have no interest in drooling over 18-20 year-olds. It feels wrong.
Seductive like this?
(Not ours, alas. Also, maybe NSFW for some people -- dude doesn't have any salient parts showing, but he is nude.)
Doesn't do anything for me. Pretty, but overall very feminine. On the other hand, I find overly muscled body builders grotesque. I find muscles shaped by a purpose (rowers, swimmers gymnasts, removal men,...) attractive, but not muscles for their own sake.
The most beautiful man in the world, is of course, Johnny Depp
here as John Dillinger
I don't find him sexy though.
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Assistant Software Developer
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I'm 50 (straight, female). I have no interest in drooling over 18-20 year-olds. It feels wrong.
Yeah, I get that. I love the half-page of Shelyn in Inner Sea Gods, for instance, but she looks 15. Very different from Eva's depiction where she looks much older and rounder and beautiful. I actually really attached to the Eva's goddesses for seeing a better variance than I was used. Also, there's something about Ezren...
I'm 50 (straight, female). I have no interest in drooling over 18-20 year-olds. It feels wrong.Basically, depict an athlete with model-perfect features at around 18-19 and there you go. Don't expect a 19 year old Michael Phelps to get many second looks. lol
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I can understand that. It's also my impression that women generally are more open to being interested in older men (in comparison with their age) than men are. Men, it seems, tend to prefer younger, likely due to the greater emphasis on looks. There are exceptions, of course. Men are at their physical peak around 18, when the skeleton has stopped growing. They're not at their mental peak yet.
Here is a passage I just read that typifies the double-standard:
Gozreh appears as a colossal humanoid whose lower body trails away into a mass of roiling elemental matter. His female avatar of the sea merges with water and appears young and beautiful woman with wild green hair. The male avatar of the winds and clouds merges with a storm cloud and appears as a weathered old man with a long white beard.
The young and beautiful female and the weathered old man with a beard...
I'm not certain that a depiction of male beauty need necessarily be young and soft.
It doesn't, but it would be a very welcome change. There are innumerable old guys depicted in fantasy art as being the standard of male attractiveness.
Like this one (look at the far left).
Take as look at the picture of Gauthier I linked to that I said was gorgeous. That type would be very welcome as a change. It is not a female with some masculine touches.
A lumberjack/bear with a kind expression, or a guy who looks like a typical fantasy gamer... someone suggested depicting that latter two... Well that's fine but it's high time to show a truly beautiful young man for once. Where are all the portly homely 33 year old women in fantasy art? It seems that whenever the subject of having some attractive males comes up, some guys say "but where are all the ordinary-looking men?" It seems like a way to try to keep the pretty guys out of the material.
All of which is to say that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to assume that a male god who just wants sex (assuming he's safe to be with, and a skilled and respectful partner) is necessarily an unattractive idea to female audiences.Bolding mine. I've got to point out a difference between straight men and women. This passage isn't necessarily what men look for in a mate.
Take Calistria, for example. She's skilled, suredly. But is she safe to be with? Is she respectful? Not so much. But the typical guy won't care, she's hot.
Now, I think this difference is more societal in nature. Men are supposed to be the aggressors. They're supposed to be able to take on anything a woman throws at them. So, she doesn't have to be respectful or safe, because he'll come out okay on the other side anyway. Or maybe she is actually perilous, but then surviving the encounter only proves one's worth as a man. But a woman would end up shouldering much more of the burden of a He-Calistria. There's a real chance that he would break his partner and toss her away callously. And if he's a problem, then even surviving the encounter wouldn't add to a woman's worth. She'd be tainted for having been with him.
That double standard affects what makes for a good male partner, versus a female partner. I personally don't think it should exist, and both a man-killer and a lady-killer should be scorned, but that's not what society teaches, unfortunately.
I agree with this, but don't forget that gay men exist, too. Also, I don't think that Calistria is really about a sexy person wanting it. Instead, Calistria is a reflection of male desire (not the other way around). From the write-up I read it doesn't even sound like she is interested in sex, in connecting with someone intimately, at all. Instead, sex is used as a mechanism for manipulation. That's the feminine wiles stuff I referred to.
Also, the "bad boy" is quite popular with many women, which is why it has been parodied on Seinfeld several times, for instance. Some research has said that women have two ideal types of man: the homemaker (marriage) and the bad boy (the fling). The former is softer and the latter is more aggressive and has more masculine features. Interestingly, then, it seems like that latter figure is someone that both hetero men and hetero women can appreciate. However, if the guy isn't tough enough, I think he'll get criticism from the men because he will seem too close to the soft guy.
A cartoonishly simply depiction of the bad boy can be seen in the Star Trek Next Gen episode the Outrageous Okona. The way the female falls instantly for him could be said to be sexist, also. But, of course, that offers the opportunity to dress a woman up like this.
What did Carter and his colleagues find? Women found the Dark Triad personality more attractive than the control. This result is in keeping with previous studies in which Dark Triad men reported their increased level of sexual success.
What might explain this result? Carter and his colleagues offer two possible explanations. First, sexual selection might be at work. This would mean that women are responding to signals of “male quality” when it comes to reproduction. And with respect to short-term mating, women may be drawn to ‘bad boys’, who demonstrate confidence, stubbornness, and risk-taking tendencies. Second, sexual conflict may be at play. The investigators state that “Women may be responding to DT men’s ability to ‘sell themselves’; a useful tactic in a co-evolutionary ‘arms race’ in which men convince women to pursue the former’s preferred sexual strategy.” They note that like a “used-car dealer,” Dark Triad men may be effective charmers and manipulators, furthering their success at short-term mating. The authors are also careful to note that though women rated the DT character as comparatively more attractive, it does not necessarily mean that they would have sex with them.
Carter and his team report the limitations of the study, including that the participants were undergraduates, a population that tends to be oriented towards short-term relationships. This study is part of a growing body of research unveiling women's dueling desires. On the one hand, they express wanting a relationship with a loving and committed partner for the long-term. Yet on the other hand, they demonstrate an attraction to men with darker personalities, typically for the short-term.
That passage suggests that there is a place for a male version of Calistria. I find the type uninteresting, but there are gay men who like "rough trade" (heterosexual men who may, if they're unlucky, beat them up after sex due to homophobia). Also, in terms of what I said earlier in this post about Calistria, the fact that she's female seems to be a reconstitution of the bad boy that appeals more to a hetero male audience.
Friendly and welcoming faces are hard to find.
I can agree witht his, I do not know or care about the "sexyness" but I just find male avatars to be lacking some variety.
Most times when I have made a female Pc for a PbP game in paizo I can find a portrait that fit the concept Or if not I instead found a nice portrait that suggest me a slight change in the character concept I have in mind. (see spoiler for examples)
Ealasaid: Blonde, exotic, tatoos, all in there. I could not find her human so I just go with half-elf.
katzza: Self confidnent, human, white hair, exactly how i wanted her.
Allistara: The perefect exotic varisian Wanderer. Perfect match.
Masha: Oriental woman, check. unfriendly face, check. Perfect match.
For male Pc it have been harder. For Alexandros I have no clear character concept in mind, only his mechanics (lunar oracle), the only thing I wanted is that the image reflect some mistery. So I look image afther image and I just found angr guys afther angry guys, so I choose one and make him an angry person.
Leoven the white priest was a total failure. I want him to be young human, shy, short haired blond and perhaps a little nerdy. I had to surrender and conform with just human and young.
I am now in the procces of making a charismatic sylph and there is just no image for him.
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Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...
and who can ever forget this poor sod from Crown of the Kobold King?
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While I was mulling over art commission details, something stuck out to me as a potential hurdle to making male (demi-)deities appealing, though it isn't something exclusive to them: The Glowing Monochromatic Eyes thing.
When these started flooding the market in 90's comic books, it coincided with a general drop in some artists'(let's just say the Image Generation) ability to portray emotions beyond anger and grim determination.
To a point, that problem carries over into fantasy art. Yes, you can have monochromatic eyes still be expressive, but it takes a lot more work and you still probably lose a good bit of relatability. It's why my favorite elf eyes in Pathfinder art(official or otherwise) do use the monochromatic eyes but also have visible and distinct irises and pupils, making those eyes more emotive.
This really stood out when I was looking at the official artwork for Ragathiel and Cernunnos. Especially Cernunnos, who(what with being the Horned God and all) should probably be an earthy, lusty, and appealing character, yet his eyes make him seem much more distant and unrelatable. Even if someone tried to portray him with a warm and welcoming face, those eyes are likely to cause a problem.
Contrast with Shelyn and Arshea. Shelyn's eyes are beautiful and expressive. Arshea's eyes are closed in his/her artwork, which works for that piece, but if s/he had those blank eyes it would hurt the feel of that character.
They don't have to have natural human eye/iris/scalera configurations or color combinations either. As long as they have enough distinct parts to make those eyes expressive and "readable", all's good.
(and I do understand the enormous hypocrisy of this post coming from a huge Kurt Wagner fan ;) )
Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...
As much as I was just lobbying for more friendly faces, gender-bent Cruella is looking pretty handsome... Also Pocahontas.
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As much as I was just lobbying for more friendly faces, gender-bent Cruella is looking pretty handsome... Also Pocahontas.Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...
Incidentally, I had seen that list before and pointed out to some of my female friends that out of all those guys, I wouldn't mind being genderbent Cruella.
Also, they're all so conventionally pretty. Here's where a genderbent Ursula could look incredible with a bit more weight and knowing glance.
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All of which is to say that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to assume that a male god who just wants sex (assuming he's safe to be with, and a skilled and respectful partner) is necessarily an unattractive idea to female audiences.Bolding mine. I've got to point out a difference between straight men and women. This passage isn't necessarily what men look for in a mate.
Take Calistria, for example. She's skilled, suredly. But is she safe to be with? Is she respectful? Not so much. But the typical guy won't care, she's hot.
Now, I think this difference is more societal in nature. Men are supposed to be the aggressors. They're supposed to be able to take on anything a woman throws at them. So, she doesn't have to be respectful or safe, because he'll come out okay on the other side anyway. Or maybe she is actually perilous, but then surviving the encounter only proves one's worth as a man. But a woman would end up shouldering much more of the burden of a He-Calistria. There's a real chance that he would break his partner and toss her away callously. And if he's a problem, then even surviving the encounter wouldn't add to a woman's worth. She'd be tainted for having been with him.
That double standard affects what makes for a good male partner, versus a female partner. I personally don't think it should exist, and both a man-killer and a lady-killer should be scorned, but that's not what society teaches, unfortunately.
I think it's more than just that men are supposed to be the aggressors.
1) I don't think most men believe at a gut/instinctive level that they're actually physically unsafe with a woman, even if she's supposed to be dangerous, and statistically speaking, they're right about that. One of the big risks for women (pregnancy) isn't an issue for them, and the number of men who get killed by casual female sex partners is so low as to be anomalous. So the whole "danger" aspect, I think, puts dangerous women more in the "thrilling (mild) risk" category than in the "actual potential for death" category.
2) Men are less concerned with the skill of a casual partner because, to put it delicately, the chances of the encounter ending satisfyingly for them (regardless of their partner's skill) are close to a sure thing. For most women, it's far more likely that the encounter is not going to end that way for them than that it is.
So in essence, saying men don't care about danger or the skill of their partners while women do, I think, is inaccurate. It's more that a random one night stand is unlikely to actually be dangerous to a man, and that their partner is overwhelmingly likely to be able to get them off.
And yet, despite the risks, not to mention the societal disapproval, women continue to pursue casual sex with all kinds of guys, and the archetype of the bad boy still is attractive to a large percentage of the female population. (See, in its latest incarnation, Loki.)
So, while a male version of Calistria wouldn't, obviously, simply be a mirror image of her, the assertion that the basic idea wouldn't be compelling to female audiences (and, of course, to gay/bi male audiences) falls pretty flat to me.
Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...
Ariel is the prettiest, although his face reminds me a bit too much of one of Michael Jackson's extreme surgical outcomes — with the huge wide-set eyes and the tiny nose.
One interesting thing is that I liked slide 6 of the two intermediate examples better than the finished product, especially the expression in the first example. That sort of expression, which has more character, is one typically not used with females (which seems to be why it was greatly toned down in the final version).
and who can ever forget this poor sod from Crown of the Kobold King? ** spoiler omitted **
It's nice to have a dude in distress for a change, although they usually are more marked by violence as he is, than the damsels are.
Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...Ariel is the prettiest, although his face reminds me a bit too much of one of Michael Jackson's extreme surgical outcomes — with the huge wide-set eyes and the tiny nose.
I don't know if it's because of what you're pointing out here or if it's because his eyes and cheeks seem entirely unaffected by that big smile, but I find Ariel's face to be sort of uncanny.
I think it is certainly possible to depict a male NPC with a bulkier frame (and maybe even *gasp* body hair) as beautiful.
I would be unbelievably down with that.
I think it's more than just that men are supposed to be the aggressors.1) I don't think most men believe at a gut/instinctive level that they're actually physically unsafe with a woman, even if she's supposed to be dangerous, and statistically speaking, they're right about that. One of the big risks for women (pregnancy) isn't an issue for them, and the number of men who get killed by casual female sex partners is so low as to be anomalous. So the whole "danger" aspect, I think, puts dangerous women more in the "thrilling (mild) risk" category than in the "actual potential for death" category.
2) Men are less concerned with the skill of a casual partner because, to put it delicately, the chances of the encounter ending satisfyingly for them (regardless of their partner's skill) are close to a sure thing. For most women, it's far more likely that the encounter is not going to end that way for them than that it is.
So in essence, saying men don't care about danger or the skill of their partners while women do, I think, is inaccurate. It's more that a random one night stand is unlikely to actually be dangerous to a man, and that their partner is overwhelmingly likely to be able to get them off.
And yet, despite the risks, not to mention the societal disapproval, women continue to pursue casual sex with all kinds of guys, and the archetype of the bad boy still is attractive to a large percentage of the female population. (See, in its latest incarnation, Loki.)
So, while a male version of Calistria wouldn't, obviously, simply be a mirror image of her, the assertion that the basic idea wouldn't be compelling to female audiences (and, of course, to gay/bi male audiences) falls pretty flat to me.
Actually, I think we're quite similar in our positions, with one possible exception. Regarding part 2 above, I may be a bit of a connoisseur about such matters, but... oh, heck, no. I won't go into details, but my partner's skill matters a lot for my satisfaction. But then again, I'm not a one-night-stand kind of guy, so I wouldn't turn to a stranger for my satisfaction in the first place.
But otherwise, I fully agree. The reason most men don't perceive danger from a dangerous woman is because the danger usually doesn't exist anyway. Similarly, women perceive the danger from a dangerous man because it's actually there. However, I also think that the social norm of the aggressive male plays into this, because it offers a justification for the dangerous man to be an actual hazard.
As for the bad boy stereotype, do women often think of the bad boy treating them the same way he treats everyone else? Or is part of the fantasy that he'll treat her differently this time?
Also, given the differences between the ideal bad boy and bad girl, does this suggest that Cayden Cailean is the He-Calistria? Being Good, he adds the dimension of love and respect, still wrapped up in a bad boy.
Actually, I think we're quite similar in our positions, with one possible exception. Regarding part 2 above, I may be a bit of a connoisseur about such matters, but... oh, heck, no. I won't go into details, but my partner's skill matters a lot for my satisfaction. But then again, I'm not a one-night-stand kind of guy, so I wouldn't turn to a stranger for my satisfaction in the first place.
Yeah, I'm not saying that men universally don't care about their lovers' skills in bed. But if we're going to speak in generalities, a man considering a one-night stand is weighing a lot lower risk vs a lot higher chance of reward than a woman. Which is why it's dangerous to make essentialist assumptions about how much women want relationships vs sex.
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poor sod from Crown of the Kobold King? ** spoiler omitted **
I just recalled something that may be a bit of a disappointment:
A think I also remember him being romantically connected to the halfling that shows up in that adventure, though they were quite the odd couple aesthetically speaking... I mean, sorcerer guy was all "Cirque du Soleil" levels of fancy. Halfling guy looked liek he came straight out of the Rankin-Bass Hobbit cartoons.
Lymnieris art tangent:
It will be vaguely SFW, I think. That is, it'll be clean, though some may have questions after looking over your shoulder.
Friendly and welcoming faces are hard to find.I can agree witht his, I do not know or care about the "sexyness" but I just find male avatars to be lacking some variety.
Most times when I have made a female Pc for a PbP game in paizo I can find a portrait that fit the concept Or if not I instead found a nice portrait that suggest me a slight change in the character concept I have in mind. (see spoiler for examples)
** spoiler omitted **
For male Pc it have been harder. For Alexandros I have no clear character concept in mind, only his mechanics (lunar oracle), the only thing I wanted is that the image reflect some mistery. So I look image afther image and I just found angr guys afther angry guys, so I choose one and make him an angry person.
Leoven the white priest was a total failure. I want him to be young human, shy, short haired blond and perhaps a little nerdy. I had to surrender and conform with just human and young.
I am now in the procces of making a charismatic sylph and there is just no image for him.
Ok, I have not found any image for the sylph I originally have in mind, so I decided to change a little bit :/
To keep talking about diversity, in the sylph´s stats Instead of writting black powder inquisition I wrote black power inquisition and somebody make joke about it, black panters and all that.
And I just realized that, besides drows, I have never played a black character, so perhaps I could find a good portrait for a black Pc... I was wrong :/, I think there is just one black guy among 1000+ portraits :(
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And I just realized that, besides drows, I have never played a black character, so perhaps I could find a good portrait for a black Pc... I was wrong :/, I think there is just one black guy among 1000+ portraits :(
I see, I do not want him to be androgynous, so bad luck for me. The extreme african style was also a thing I wanted to avoid.
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As much as I was just lobbying for more friendly faces, gender-bent Cruella is looking pretty handsome... Also Pocahontas.Maybe some of these (bared pecs and other things to boot) will strike your collective fancy...
Incidentally, I had seen that list before and pointed out to some of my female friends that out of all those guys, I wouldn't mind being genderbent Cruella.
Also, they're all so conventionally pretty. Here's where a genderbent Ursula could look incredible with a bit more weight and knowing glance.
Ursula looks like jack Black to me