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With things like Arshea (and the description of Calistria in male form) it seems like attempts to make beautiful maleness keep resulting in somewhat masculine women.
Male beauty and female beauty are not really on the same continuum. Masculine women are not the most beautiful possibility of masculinity, at least if you're a gay male like I am.
Beautiful maleness, though, is about the qualities of the male body that are specifically attractive. That is quite different from looking at a female body and trying to add a bit of masculinity to it because you think that the female body is the best and thus the compromise is to decorate it a bit with some masculine touches. Generally, what you instead do is start with the male body and add a bit of "femininity" to it — like pretty eyes, a pretty smile, a pretty boyish face, a hairless chest, a swimmer's build (although with a bit more body fat than a pro swimmer has), a nice male-shaped rear, etc.
It is true, to an extent, that beauty is subjective. But, there are also genetic instinctual aspects that are tied to our sexual orientation. Gay men do not find women to be the most beautiful just like heterosexual men don't find men to be the most beautiful. I hope artists and writers will keep this in mind when trying to appeal to gay gamers, women, and heterosexual men who want to try something different when designing new things for Pathfinder like Arshea. Arshea is positive step, but one that really is more ideal for a lesbian, a transgendered person, or similar.
I really like that Pathfinder is branching out, away from the tedious hulking mechanical gruff/fierce uber-male killing machine and sexpot barely clothed female dichotomy. But, please don't forget that there are really hot guys who look like guys, too. Where's our God?
And, no, Cayden Cailean doesn't make the cut. He's designed more for a heterosexual guy's ideal of a variant of manliness.
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With things like Arshea (and the description of Calistria in male form) it seems like attempts to make beautiful maleness keep resulting in somewhat masculine women.
Well, given that one of them is primarily female, and the other is intentionally androgynous...I'm not sure this is an attempt at 'male beauty' per se.
I really like that Pathfinder is branching out, away from the tedious hulking mechanical gruff/fierce uber-male killing machine and sexpot barely clothed female dichotomy. But, please don't forget that there are really hot guys who look like guys, too. Where's our God?
This seems an entirely reasonable request, though.
Indeed, I did a tangentially related thread, recently. And have seen a few other threads griping about similar things.
In short, Paizo appears to suffer from a distinct lack of attractive male illustrations in general. Clearly a trend that should be remedied in the future...
What I meant is that when I see an androgynous character it is a woman with a bit of masculine added on. Even classical painters sometimes used female models for the bodies of male characters who they intended to look appealing (most often the buttocks), because the heterosexual male painter (and/or the intended owner of the painting) associated beautiful physical form with the female body. This is an erroneous view because what it does is replace what it is that is alluring about the male body with female parts.
A notable exception from classical art is David's Sabine Women which shows a soldier with a spear who has a nice lower central area, and not bad legs. The pose isn't so great and the face and hair aren't special, but that body is a lot closer to an ideal of male beauty than an androgynous body is. That figure is a rather rare example in Western painting of a fairly ideal male body that isn't clothed and is prominently located in the painting. It is precisely the male shape of his body that makes it appealing, but it is also his youthfulness that keeps him from just looking bulky and ordinary like that other soldier who is facing forward on the left side of the painting.
Since people are talking about Arshea, Calistria in male form, and support for same-sex marriage as being examples of how Paizo is broadening appeal of the game, I just felt it prudent to point out that, while a good start, it's not exactly the same thing as providing a God we gay men can really get behind.
"This seems an entirely reasonable request, though."
Thank you. I am willing to write such a character up if Paizo would like me to. I do have a degree in Creative Writing. : )
"Paizo appears to suffer from a distinct lack of attractive male illustrations in general."
This is true for the gaming industry as a whole. Video games, for instance, typically show animalistic or mechanized male killing machines and female sexpot sidekicks.
Great linked topic, by the way. Joana's first two posts are classic:
"That's all the NPCs with at least a paragraph of description. Even though that's six males to three females, there's not a single attractive male romance option.
...
While the party is stranded with three males and two females, both females are described as extraordinarily attractive, while the human males are specifically called 'old' and 'plain-looking.'"
Color me shocked.
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Maybe its a secondary efffect of the charisma dump stat phenomenon. ;)
Maybe its a secondary efffect of the charisma dump stat phenomenon. ;)
I'd say it's the other way around. Charisma is often a dump stat precisely because it's not what a typical heterosexual male gamer is thought to want to play (a pretty character rather than a tough strong dude).
Plus, I really think Charisma and Beauty should be separate stats. I can mention a certain German leader who was highly charismatic and definitely ugly-looking. He is hardly the only example. It also seems that Beauty is hidden away within Charisma to avoid the "problem" of male characters who are statted as being beautiful. How horrible that would be, right? ; )
Can I ask what pictures are you talking about?
Can I ask what pictures are you talking about?
Arshea:
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1384/95/1384959417220.jpg
hot girls, guys are not:
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1390/59/1390590044523.png
face is a woman's, body is fairly masculine though (not Pathfinder or Paizo)... still, the overall gist is that masculinity is hot only when it is almost a woman (even the pectorals seem like breasts). The art is clever and very well crafted, but it's not the ideal of male beauty in my book.
http://37.media.tumblr.com/b9ae2b25cdb628e0061abe88f1b22e63/tumblr_muokxlqm 5b1qih5jvo1_500.jpg
Cayden
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1355/26/1355268487776.jpg
Valaros
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/DBloch2012_1/Fighter-ValerosSmall_ zps17c421ad.jpg
sex pot (getting a space in the file name for some reason -- delete it to load image)
http://www.eva-widermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/eva-widermann-noctic ula.jpg
fully clothed male and female who is not (getting a space in the file name for some reason -- delete it to load image)
http://www.eva-widermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/eva-widermann-charac ter-05.jpg
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Just some examples I pulled up quickly. Women are typically presented as busty and men are presented as fully clothed and not particularly cute. There is a great page in a Star Wars Saga book that has a guy in a space suit so you can see nothing and women in barely anything. It's typical.
As a heterosexual woman I'd like to say that I oppose the point of view that Cayden is unattractive or a "masculine woman". :)
As a heterosexual woman I'd like to say that I oppose the point of view that Cayden is unattractive or a "masculine woman". :)
I didn't intend to suggest that Cayden is a masculine woman, lol. As for attractive, I am not surprised that we have differing opinions about what an attractive man is like.
He's an Okona (Star Trek Next Gen reference) character -- not exactly a rarity in Western culture — the roguish bad boy.
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As a straight guy, this particular issue never actually occurred to me until recently (though too many overtly sexualized women, a separate but related issue, did occur to me as a feminist)...however, having gone to some effort to systematize the phenomenon in question (not enough hot guys) in a couple of threads (the one linked, and one where I went through all the AP covers comparing scantily clad women to men), this is actually an ongoing problem of notable dimensions.
Less so with Paizo than many other companies, IMO, but more obvious here because of how inclusive they are otherwise.
Maybe its a secondary efffect of the charisma dump stat phenomenon. ;)I'd say it's the other way around. Charisma is often a dump stat precisely because it's not what a typical heterosexual male gamer is thought to want to play (a pretty character rather than a tough strong dude).
Plus, I really think Charisma and Beauty should be separate stats. I can mention a certain German leader who was highly charismatic and definitely ugly-looking. He is hardly the only example. It also seems that Beauty is hidden away within Charisma to avoid the "problem" of male characters who are statted as being beautiful. How horrible that would be, right? ; )
Eh, I never equate charisma to physical attractiveness anymore. I just use it for how the character acts in social situations; "she's an a+~%!%%" happens to be very easy for me to play and does not require my character to be physically unattractive at all! Puhuhuhu.
As a woman who prefers women I don't really have a need for this other than a general equality thing. I find that requiring the male characters to be as sexualized as the females tends to do wonders for reining in unnecessary fanservice (unless you're Studio Trigger I suppose).
Edit: ahaha wow, I didn't know this forum censors swears like that. That's adorable.
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Eh, I never equate charisma to physical attractiveness anymore. I just use it for how the character acts in social situations; "she's an a@%~#$$" happens to be very easy for me to play and does not require my character to be physically unattractive at all! Puhuhuhu.Maybe its a secondary efffect of the charisma dump stat phenomenon. ;)I'd say it's the other way around. Charisma is often a dump stat precisely because it's not what a typical heterosexual male gamer is thought to want to play (a pretty character rather than a tough strong dude).
Plus, I really think Charisma and Beauty should be separate stats. I can mention a certain German leader who was highly charismatic and definitely ugly-looking. He is hardly the only example. It also seems that Beauty is hidden away within Charisma to avoid the "problem" of male characters who are statted as being beautiful. How horrible that would be, right? ; )
I agree with this. Amiri and her Charisma of 8 also appear to agree...
As a woman who prefers women I don't really have a need for this other than a general equality thing. I find that requiring the male characters to be as sexualized as the females tends to do wonders for reining in unnecessary fanservice (unless you're Studio Trigger I suppose).
Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight either per se...but I'm sorta obsessed to an unreasonable degree with the concept of fairness and justice, so I'm definitely in on the 'more hot guys' bandwagon despite not getting anything from it personally.
You're probably right on the fanservice thing, too, which is a nice side benefit.
Edit: ahaha wow, I didn't know this forum censors swears like that. That's adorable.
I've always found it amusing. :)
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Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight either per se...but I'm sorta obsessed to an unreasonable degree with the concept of fairness and justice, so I'm definitely in on the 'more hot guys' bandwagon despite not getting anything from it personally.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." — MLK Jr.
While obviously over the top in this context, it's certainly a slogan any LG Paladin can love.
Plus, it is true as well. Everyone benefits from fairness in the end. For instance, you could end up with a useful gay male or hetero woman at your table because more of an effort was made to attract them to the game. The same thing can be said for a good GM at a convention... whatever. Plus, you get more flavor options for when you want to do something different. I recently played a neuter character. Most of my characters are high charisma beauties, but this character was like Pat from SNL — purposefully designed to be as sexless as possible. And, ironically, the character has a massive charisma because it is a sorcerer.
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Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight either per se...but I'm sorta obsessed to an unreasonable degree with the concept of fairness and justice, so I'm definitely in on the 'more hot guys' bandwagon despite not getting anything from it personally."Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." — MLK Jr.
While obviously over the top in this context, it's certainly a slogan any LG Paladin can love.
Plus, it is true as well. Everyone benefits from fairness in the end. For instance, you could end up with a useful gay male or hetero woman at your table because more of an effort was made to attract them to the game. The same thing can be said for a good GM at a convention... whatever. Plus, you get more flavor options for when you want to do something different. I recently played a neuter character. Most of my characters are high charisma beauties, but this character was like Pat from SNL — purposefully designed to be as sexless as possible. And, ironically, the character has a massive charisma because it is a sorcerer.
I agree with all of this. For the record. :)
For the sake of throwing a wrench into things, is Paizo obligated to publish artwork that appeals to many preferences? (don't know the correct phraseology here. Hope the intent is understood) For example, do we need a transgendered iconic character?
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Calistria covers it all. Just don't be a jerk, or you get imaginatively backstabbed. ;)
Not really. Calistria is based on the idea of feminine wiles being both attractive and evil. It's also based on the patriarchal notion that erotic desire is corrupt and/or frivolous — as opposed to courtly love, Platonic love, and so on.
Even the attempt to morph her into a gay-male friendly god by giving her the option of male form doesn't really cut it because it says she still considers herself female. And, the description of her in male form sounds a lot like the Arshea thing of a slightly masculine woman.
There is no lust/eros god that I have seen that doesn't treat lust/eros as being corrupt, devious, and manipulative. There is no male god of sex, for instance, who turns erotic desire into a reflection of purity of mind and body — with an emphasis on having an athletic body, clear skin, youthfulness, and so on. Arshea is the closest, but (her) main thing is cross-dressing and transgenderism. She's like the prototypical theater/art faerie major who likes to dress up like Puck from A Midsummer Night's Dream. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's not really the same thing as a cute young jock god of sex.
I don't buy into the idea that erotic desire has to be base, corrupt, frivolous, or otherwise inferior to Platonic/courtly love. Instead, it's a reflection of one's physical health. A strong libido is associated with good health. So, for me, Calistria isn't about sex at all but is instead about thievery. It doesn't seem like she cares about sex, or other people, but instead just cares about accruing power. That's the impression I got from reading the write-up. Sex is equated with the stinging of wasps. Ouch.
Also... you have to check out the hilarious parody of the fantasy art gender dichotomy here:
http://www.sociologyfornerds.com/2013/07/drawing-women-part-v-solution.html
The female parody, by the way, is actually a failure because it shows too much abdominal and chest skin. But the male-female parody is so funny.
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For the sake of throwing a wrench into things, is Paizo obligated to publish artwork that appeals to many preferences?
Obligated is an odd word to chose. Businesses are in the business of providing products that people want. Since gay men and hetero women are people, it is possible for us to ask for what we want.
(don't know the correct phraseology here. Hope the intent is understood) For example, do we need a transgendered iconic character?
Need is also an odd word to chose. However, I would say gaming does need transgendered characters. The transgendered get so little acknowledgement in general that it makes things quite interesting to have them included in a game.
Interesting flavor makes for interesting gaming.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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For the sake of throwing a wrench into things, is Paizo obligated to publish artwork that appeals to many preferences? (don't know the correct phraseology here. Hope the intent is understood) For example, do we need a transgendered iconic character?
Need? No.
Some people have a desire to see one (or more). For me, it's as important as seeing a sinister iconic character. It won't make or break the game for me, but it might for some.
Paizo seems to have chosen to include that aspect. That's their right, just as much as it is to not have a dedicated left handed Iconic.
It seems to me that what you're saying, SRS, is that Paizo needs to take their commitment to inclusiveness a bit farther, by allowing for characters that are not just inoffensively, safely of unconventional sexuality, but instead might well offend those who are already uneasy at the direction taken.
So Calistria isn't offensive (or this) but a male lust god would be?
Why is that, exactly?
Plus, the god doesn't need to be a lust god (although that would be great, since the feminine wiles corruption thing isn't very unique -- just seems to be another version of the Drow). At least just make him hot, and not yet another womanizer or tough/gruff killing machine. He could be the god of physical fitness or something, where your body is your temple and you get some sort of bonus for attracting people.
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For the sake of throwing a wrench into things, is Paizo obligated to publish artwork that appeals to many preferences? (don't know the correct phraseology here. Hope the intent is understood)
No, but they seem to want to, and that being the case, telling them in what ways they aren't will probably result in a change. I, at least, am not demanding they do anything. I'm pointing out something they might want to do.
For example, do we need a transgendered iconic character?
Actually, according to the folks at Paizo, we have one already. They just haven't said who yet. I'm betting on Damiel.
The same was true of 'gay iconic' until Kyra and Merisiel's relationship got some time in the spotlight in the comic...so I'd imagine we'll find out eventually.
Not really. Calistria is based on the idea of feminine wiles being both attractive and evil. It's also based on the patriarchal notion that erotic desire is corrupt and/or frivolous — as opposed to courtly love, Platonic love, and so on.
Whoah, whoah. Hold on a moment there. First, Calistria isn't Evil. Like, at all. She's CN. Which isn't the most virtuous Alignment, but isn't awful or anything either.
Second, Shelyn is absolutely the Goddess of physical, sexual, love as well as less physical forms. She's got nothing against lust, actually (and is specifically stated not to)...she just hopes it develops into more than just the physical. there's also the implied (and more-or-less developer confirmed) sexual relationship between her, Desna, and Sarenrae...
Even the attempt to morph her into a gay-male friendly god by giving her the option of male form doesn't really cut it because it says she still considers herself female. And, the description of her in male form sounds a lot like the Arshea thing of a slightly masculine woman.
Again, I don't think this was the intent there.
There is no lust/eros god that I have seen that doesn't treat lust/eros as being corrupt, devious, and manipulative. There is no male god of sex, for instance, who turns erotic desire into a reflection of purity of mind and body — with an emphasis on having an athletic body, clear skin, youthfulness, and so on.
Arshea actually does this pretty well. He/she just doesn't happen to be male per se.
Arshea is the closest, but (her) main thing is cross-dressing and transgenderism. She's like the prototypical theater/art faerie major who likes to dress up like Puck from A Midsummer Night's Dream. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's not really the same thing as a cute young jock god of sex.
That's...actually not true at all. Arshea gets a lot of press on the internet for his/her transgenderism, but isn't primarily the God of that in and of itself, but of freedom, beauty, and sexuality.
To quote from Arshea's deity description:
Arshea espouses utter liberation of the soul and encourages mortals to abandon needles sly constraining beliefs . Arshea's influence guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon. Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Delectation.
Now, to reiterate, Arshea isn't male per se (leaving the gap you noted originally), but saying he or she isn't a Good aligned, sex positive, God is stretching the point quite a bit.
I don't buy into the idea that erotic desire has to be base, corrupt, frivolous, or otherwise inferior to Platonic/courtly love. Instead, it's a reflection of one's physical health. A strong libido is associated with good health. So, for me, Calistria isn't about sex at all but is instead about thievery. It doesn't seem like she cares about sex, or other people, but instead just cares about accruing power. That's the impression I got from reading the write-up. Sex is equated with the stinging of wasps. Ouch.
Which write-up? Because that's in no way the impression I got from Calistria's deity article. She's certainly willing to use sex as a weapon when she feels like it, but she also enjoys it for it's own sake and is a big proponent of several sex positive things. Also, vengeance is not necessarily evil either, nor theft, nor trickery.
In summary: You're right, that there need to be more male Gods of these sorts of things, but you're wrong in saying that the Gods Paizo has presented are sex-negative. They're actually quite sex-positive for the most part.
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So... basically there is no disagreement here? I think most people recognize that the dudebro who just wants to ogle boobs and uses the phrase "no homo" with no irony involved would be deeply offended by the introduction of more sexy men.
As long as we agree that offending that type of person is a good thing then there's no problem.
So... basically there is no disagreement here? I think most people recognize that the dudebro who just wants to ogle boobs and uses the phrase "no homo" with no irony involved would be deeply offended by the introduction of more sexy men.
As long as we agree that offending that type of person is a good thing then there's no problem.
If you mean that it shouldn't only be women who're sexualized, then I agree with you.
If you mean we should go out of our way to offend people, no.
Offending people is not relevant to goodness. If you do something good which offends one of those people, it is still good, and it was not good simply because it offended a "dudebro".
On the go at the moment, but Lymnieris definitely warrants a closer look.
(still hoping for some Dou-Bral info and art down the line)
Yeah, I have no idea what the OP wants. Lymnieris is exactly what is requested.
Male Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Prostitution, Virginity and rites of passage.
Though I'm thinking the OP wants art to match their tastes not the fact the concept already exists within the game.
So... basically there is no disagreement here? I think most people recognize that the dudebro who just wants to ogle boobs and uses the phrase "no homo" with no irony involved would be deeply offended by the introduction of more sexy men.
As long as we agree that offending that type of person is a good thing then there's no problem.
If you mean that it shouldn't only be women who're sexualized, then I agree with you.
If you mean we should go out of our way to offend people, no.
Offending people is not relevant to goodness. If you do something good which offends one of those people, it is still good, and it was not good simply because it offended a "dudebro".
Nah, you don't go out of your way. The kind of guy I'm talking about has a... very low tolerance for this sort of thing.
Just doing what you should be doing is going to offend him, so you shouldn't care.
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Shelyn is absolutely the Goddess of physical, sexual, love as well as less physical forms. She's got nothing against lust, actually (and is specifically stated not to)...she just hopes it develops into more than just the physical. there's also the implied (and more-or-less developer confirmed) sexual relationship between her, Desna, and Sarenrae...
Actually, to me, this is kind of what the OP is talking about. The female deities are so sexualized that we know about the sex lives even of ones whose portfolios have nothing to do with sex. The male deities, apart from Cayden Cailean, are entirely asexual. Who is Nethys sleeping with? Or Irori? Or Gorum? Or Abadar?
Shelyn is absolutely the Goddess of physical, sexual, love as well as less physical forms. She's got nothing against lust, actually (and is specifically stated not to)...she just hopes it develops into more than just the physical. there's also the implied (and more-or-less developer confirmed) sexual relationship between her, Desna, and Sarenrae...Actually, to me, this is kind of what the OP is talking about. The female deities are so sexualized that we know about the sex lives even of ones whose portfolios have nothing to do with sex. The male deities, apart from Cayden Cailean, are entirely asexual. Who is Nethys sleeping with? Or Irori? Or Gorum? Or Abadar?
Irrelevant to the point you're making, but is Gorum even male? There's been no description of what's below the armor other than glowy eyes and Gorum's herald is, as I recall, also a walking suit of armor.
Nethys' lack of a sex life is more or less confirmed thanks to being insane, out of touch with reality, and so on. It's never been flat-out stated that he's asexual, but I believe it's said that the other gods don't associate with him and he avoids human contact.
Speculation follows.
Irori would presumably demand physical perfection, so there may not be any satisfactory candidates other than himself.
Abadar... presumably he favors supporting the local economy, so the brothels. Possibly Calistria, although their alignments and ideologies don't match. Not much info on these two.
Shelyn is absolutely the Goddess of physical, sexual, love as well as less physical forms. She's got nothing against lust, actually (and is specifically stated not to)...she just hopes it develops into more than just the physical. there's also the implied (and more-or-less developer confirmed) sexual relationship between her, Desna, and Sarenrae...Actually, to me, this is kind of what the OP is talking about. The female deities are so sexualized that we know about the sex lives even of ones whose portfolios have nothing to do with sex. The male deities, apart from Cayden Cailean, are entirely asexual. Who is Nethys sleeping with? Or Irori? Or Gorum? Or Abadar?
Well Gorum is a god of war over all other pursuits. So he probably isn't concerned about sex.
Which female deity doesn't have something to do with sex? Oh right, Gozreh has a dual image and nothing is mentioned there. Pharasma seems hardly sexualized eh?
At least just make him hot, and not yet another womanizer or tough/gruff killing machine. He could be the god of physical fitness or something, where your body is your temple and you get some sort of bonus for attracting people.
Have you taken a look at Kurgess yet?
While his purview isn't sexuality per se, he pretty much completely fits the part I emboldened.
edit: And now I know what/who I'm going to play in the new PbP campaign we're starting up. Bonus points in that it is actually making me interested in playing a Cleric & I'm never interested in playing a Cleric...
I didn't write any of the above.At least just make him hot, and not yet another womanizer or tough/gruff killing machine. He could be the god of physical fitness or something, where your body is your temple and you get some sort of bonus for attracting people.Have you taken a look at Kurgess yet?
While his purview isn't sexuality per se, he pretty much completely fits the part I emboldened.
edit: And now I know what/who I'm going to play in the new PbP campaign we're starting up. Bonus points in that it is actually making me interested in playing a Cleric & I'm never interested in playing a Cleric...
Ah, sorry. I didn't pay as close attention when I was editing & didn't notice your name was still in there. I've fixed it now.
I think someone is trying to make the distinction between hunks and pretty boys
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To show just how subjective matters like this can be, when I look at Arshea's artwork my eyes don't read it as "masculine woman" but primarily as "extremely feminine and pretty man" before it clicks entirely in "could go either way" territory. Like with Andrej Pejic. some photos of Andrej Pejic.
Going back to the Lymnieris recommendation, he's described as an athletically handsome planetar(so angelic, bald, green-skinned, four wings) dressed in a fairly revealing cowled robe and is permanently slick with perspiration, as if he had just been engaged in athletic or sexual activity.
One thing that trips people up is that while he's the patron angel of willing prostitutes and the avowed chaste, that's not all he's about. While he can be played as a much more ethical and moral male Calistria, he seems to be more about the sanctity of consent. As for mortal worshipers of varying sexualities seeing something of themselves in him, he's almost certainly had unions with beings of all genders, and that's before you get into his relationship with Arshea.
While it doesn't present a deity exactly, the Iridian Fold explored in the current web fiction "Boar and Rabbit" might be of interest as well.
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Actually, to me, this is kind of what the OP is talking about. The female deities are so sexualized that we know about the sex lives even of ones whose portfolios have nothing to do with sex.
We actually only know that because someone asked a developer. The only in-print thing is a mention of them being friends.
And he was complaining about a lack of sex positivism in general (which I disagree with) as well as the separate complaint about a lack of male sex symbols (which I agree with).
The male deities, apart from Cayden Cailean, are entirely asexual. Who is Nethys sleeping with? Or Irori? Or Gorum? Or Abadar?
Eh. Shelyn is the Goddess of love. And we don't know who Iomedae, Urgathoa, and Pharasma are sleeping with either.
Indeed, from actual books, we know about Calistria's and Cayden Cailean's sex lives (and Zon Kuthon's and Lamashtu's by implication), and that Torag is married...and that's basically it.
The Desna/Shelyn/Sarenrae thing is purely internet speculation that someone asked James Jacobs about and he basically said "Yep, something like that." There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.
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There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.
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Does Asmodeus seduce Abadar from time to time under the pretense of showing him how to expand the wealth and power of civilization?
Does Cernunnos get on especially well with satyrs and fauns?
How close are Kurgess and Cayden Cailean?
This goes a bit far afield, but the notion of Benorus-worship becoming a sort of underground faith amongst gay drow men is bouncing around my head now, possibly resulting in a secretive subculture that might offer some solace from the oppression of their cultural norms...
I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.
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I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.
The thread is about what Paizo explicitly states and what it should state, no? Cayden has only been described to go after the ladies so far.
How close are Kurgess and Cayden Cailean?
Ew.
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There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.!
Does Asmodeus seduce Abadar from time to time under the pretense of showing him how to expand the wealth and power of civilization?
Does Cernunnos get on especially well with satyrs and fauns?
How close are Kurgess and Cayden Cailean?
And now I'm thinking that Irori and Erastil make a strangely apropos couple in some ways...
I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.
There's quite possibly some truth in this. Or not, it's hard to tell.
The thread is about what Paizo explicitly states and what it should state, no? Cayden has only been described to go after the ladies so far.
True. On the other hand, sometimes speculation creates interesting results...
When i look at the picture of Arshea or think of the description of Callistia's male form. I simply assumed they were following similar imagry for 'pretty men' such as from classical literature. Apollo alot of the time seemed to fit this model.
i tried seeing if there were images of Loki as a woman, as it occured to me i was not clear how he was depicted when he did the gener swapping. But the marvel images make the search difficult.
I guess, the aim was kind of renaissance beautiful man when they were trying to describe these goddesses. At least that is how i picutred Calistria as a man.
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I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.The thread is about what Paizo explicitly states and what it should state, no? Cayden has only been described to go after the ladies so far.
God forbid Paizo's inclusiveness campaign include heterosexuals, amirite?
God forbid Paizo's inclusiveness campaign include heterosexuals, amirite?I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.The thread is about what Paizo explicitly states and what it should state, no? Cayden has only been described to go after the ladies so far.
I'm not sure if you were implying that I actually believed as much, so to make sure, I was not suggesting that Cayden should suddenly start liking his buns with sausage in them. I'm perfectly fine with heterosexuals because I happen to be one, and I don't think character derailment for the sake of appeasing PCness would be effective.
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Assistant Software Developer
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Hmmmm. In this regard, I'm genuinely interested to hear what specifically(instead of the less general more good looking men) you would like to see from gay men and straight women gamers who feel like we need more beefcake and how those two groups may differ and whether there might something that gay women or straight men think we are missing in that regard as well?
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Hmmmm. In this regard, I'm genuinely interested to hear what specifically(instead of the less general more good looking men) you would like to see from gay men and straight women gamers who feel like we need more beefcake and how those two groups may differ and whether there might something that gay
women or straight men think we are missing in that regard as well?
Your art director should note, in the first sentence when describing a male character that they are attractive. When soliciting art from (mostly) straight male artists they probably default to attractive representations of females unless they're specifically instructed otherwise. With males they probably 'default' to a wider interpretation. Control that.