Where is it said that Succubi are female only ? Or Incubi male only ? Come to think of it why would an outsider be shackled to the rule of gender ? It is not as if they needed it for perpetuating their species :-)It says that in the meaning of the words, now in some stories they ARE one and the same... when in female form it's a succubus when in male form it's an incubus. I don't recall if "incubus" was ever a separate being in D&D before, but it is now in Pathfinder, hence the confusion when they show a male succubus/incubus like demon and call it a succubus. I guess because the Pathfinder incubus doesn't seduce you he just... won't use the r word, but that's what he does. So, maybe that is the difference in Pathfinder enough that they don't have the more real-world mythological definition of incubus/succubus?
Don't know, but as someone who knows the mythology and etymology of succubi/incubi it confuses me.
In Pathfinder, Succubi and Incubi are distinct types of demons that derive from separate sins. They also have different modus operandi and physical traits.
So the real life mythological version is a bit different from what is in Pathfinder.
Where is it said that Succubi are female only ? Or Incubi male only ? Come to think of it why would an outsider be shackled to the rule of gender ? It is not as if they needed it for perpetuating their species :-)It says that in the meaning of the words, now in some stories they ARE one and the same... when in female form it's a succubus when in male form it's an incubus. I don't recall if "incubus" was ever a separate being in D&D before, but it is now in Pathfinder, hence the confusion when they show a male succubus/incubus like demon and call it a succubus. I guess because the Pathfinder incubus doesn't seduce you he just... won't use the r word, but that's what he does. So, maybe that is the difference in Pathfinder enough that they don't have the more real-world mythological definition of incubus/succubus?
Don't know, but as someone who knows the mythology and etymology of succubi/incubi it confuses me.
In Pathfinder, Succubi and Incubi are distinct types of demons that derive from separate sins. They also have different modus operandi and physical traits.
So the real life mythological version is a bit different from what is in Pathfinder.
This. An incubus isn't just a male version of a succubus, and vice versa.
Even historically speaking, they weren't mirrors of each other (generalization, but mostly succubi seduced and incubi assaulted).
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There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.Does Asmodeus seduce Abadar from time to time under the pretense of showing him how to expand the wealth and power of civilization?
For the record, I think this is a fantastic idea.
I'm picturing a relationship reminiscent of Satan and Sadam in South Park...
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There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.Does Asmodeus seduce Abadar from time to time under the pretense of showing him how to expand the wealth and power of civilization?
For the record, I think this is a fantastic idea.
I'm picturing a relationship reminiscent of Satan and Sadam in South Park...
What, and it turns out Abadar is actually a much worse person than Asmodeus? I could be made to buy that....
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Why do you say that? Succubus are female, incubus are male. Sure, Paizo named the photo but then I ask what book is it even from? Is it a succubus that has taken a male form? Why? If Paizo didn't have the incubus in Bestiary 3 maybe I would take a photo like that out of context as being a succubus, but by the official existence of an incubus... why is that a succubus?No it's a succubusNecroing the thread for this succubus! :DUh, technically that's not a succubus. It's an incubus.
Kind of odd that they named the image as succubus when they do have incubus in the game already.
Because it could have taken that form to seduce someone who wasn't into t~@*?
This. An incubus isn't just a male version of a succubus, and vice versa.
It takes some pretty selective reading of the literature to come to that conclusion.
From Wikipedia: "It became generally accepted that incubi and succubi were the same demon, able to switch between male and female forms.[9] A succubus would be able to sleep with a man and collect his sperm, and then transform into an incubus and use that seed on women. Even though sperm and egg came from humans originally, the spirits' offspring were often thought of as supernatural.[10]"
Footnote 9 refers to Carus, Paul (1900), The History of The Devil and The Idea of Evil From The Earliest Times to The Present Day, "The Devil's Prime," at sacred-texts.com.
Footnote 10 refers to Lewis, James R., Oliver, Evelyn Dorothy, Sisung Kelle S. (Editor) (1996), Angels A to Z, Entry: Incubi and Succubi, pp. 218, 219, Visible Ink Press, ISBN 0-7876-0652-9.
Here's Carus' take on it:
The theory of incubi and succubi is presented in all its indecency on the authority of St. Thomas Aquinas, who in his commentary on Job (Chap. 40) interprets Behemoth (a large animal, probably the elephant) as the Devil, and derives from the mention of the animal's sexual strength (verse 16) the theory that evil demons can have intercourse with human beings. Satan is supposed to serve first as a succubus (or female devil) to men, and then as an incubus (or male devil) to women;
If you want a more formal citation, I believe that's also the official line from the Malleus Maleficarum (I recommend the Montague Summers translation.)
What, and it turns out Abadar is actually a much worse person than Asmodeus? I could be made to buy that....There's almost certainly male equivalents...that nobody's asked about yet.Does Asmodeus seduce Abadar from time to time under the pretense of showing him how to expand the wealth and power of civilization?
For the record, I think this is a fantastic idea.
I'm picturing a relationship reminiscent of Satan and Sadam in South Park...
Actually I was thinking that the Satan role would be played by Abadar, but that works too.
Abadar singing I Can Change is pretty funny.
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This. An incubus isn't just a male version of a succubus, and vice versa.It takes some pretty selective reading of the literature to come to that conclusion.
From Wikipedia: "It became generally accepted that incubi and succubi were the same demon, able to switch between male and female forms.[9] A succubus would be able to sleep with a man and collect his sperm, and then transform into an incubus and use that seed on women. Even though sperm and egg came from humans originally, the spirits' offspring were often thought of as supernatural.[10]"
Footnote 9 refers to Carus, Paul (1900), The History of The Devil and The Idea of Evil From The Earliest Times to The Present Day, "The Devil's Prime," at sacred-texts.com.
Footnote 10 refers to Lewis, James R., Oliver, Evelyn Dorothy, Sisung Kelle S. (Editor) (1996), Angels A to Z, Entry: Incubi and Succubi, pp. 218, 219, Visible Ink Press, ISBN 0-7876-0652-9.Here's Carus' take on it:
If you want a more formal citation, I believe that's also the official line from the Malleus Maleficarum (I recommend the Montague Summers translation.)
The theory of incubi and succubi is presented in all its indecency on the authority of St. Thomas Aquinas, who in his commentary on Job (Chap. 40) interprets Behemoth (a large animal, probably the elephant) as the Devil, and derives from the mention of the animal's sexual strength (verse 16) the theory that evil demons can have intercourse with human beings. Satan is supposed to serve first as a succubus (or female devil) to men, and then as an incubus (or male devil) to women;
People's 15th century misunderstanding of female sexuality doesn't change that their modus operandi is completely different, and it doesn't change that they're not the same creature in our game.
I recall reading somewhere that common thought was that succubi would seduce men into intercourse, storing their seed inside them. When they tempted women in male form, they would impregnate them with the stolen seed.
Seems like a awfully convenient way to avoid blame for affairs and resulting illegitimate children, by pointing the finger at nasty, supernatural forces.
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I recall reading somewhere that common thought was that succubi would seduce men into intercourse, storing their seed inside them. When they tempted women in male form, they would impregnate them with the stolen seed.
Seems like a awfully convenient way to avoid blame for affairs and resulting illegitimate children, by pointing the finger at nasty, supernatural forces.
That was pretty much my entire understanding of it. I even considered that as a plot point. (A succubus seducing a good cleric in a village and then knocking up a dozen local women in his form, some married, some not, with children that ended up looking like the cleric when they grew up, to tear down local faith in that religion.)
Incubi = 'a different species of rape demons' was not something I'd even heard of before seeing it in the PF Bestiary.
That's circumstantial, not evidential, 'though. I just read the wrong books, growing up. :)
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In the PRD succubi are described as her while incubi are described as him.
According to the Pathfinder wiki Succubus entry they are always female though they can take on any form their victim prefers and that Nocticula is reputedly the first one. I don't have my Demons Revsisited or Lords of Chaos books on hand but that seems right.
The male succubus image is apparently from Monster Summoner's Handbook with the caption in the wiki article about taking on forms their victims prefer.
Where is it said that Succubi are female only ? Or Incubi male only ? Come to think of it why would an outsider be shackled to the rule of gender ? It is not as if they needed it for perpetuating their species :-)It says that in the meaning of the words, now in some stories they ARE one and the same... when in female form it's a succubus when in male form it's an incubus. I don't recall if "incubus" was ever a separate being in D&D before, but it is now in Pathfinder, hence the confusion when they show a male succubus/incubus like demon and call it a succubus. I guess because the Pathfinder incubus doesn't seduce you he just... won't use the r word, but that's what he does. So, maybe that is the difference in Pathfinder enough that they don't have the more real-world mythological definition of incubus/succubus?
Don't know, but as someone who knows the mythology and etymology of succubi/incubi it confuses me.
It wasn't in 3.5 a separate creature (in fact, Savage races had a picture accompanying their "Succubus/Incubus" racial class. And there are some popular stories (such as the Dark Tower series by Stephen King) where a succubus/incubus is one and the same creature manifesting in different forms (usually to do exactly what was mentioned above with the sperm-distributing scheme). Any confusion about Pathfinder's incubi/succubi is reasonable because they were split into two pretty different creatures; in Pathfinder incubi are basic drudge guards that have some minor charm abilities and better melee attack while succubi are the actually powerful, clever, and dangerous opponents. In the APs, for example, I believe there is only one named incubi (who is a generic gladiator fight for the PCs to kill), with many more named and unnamed succubi being the sneaky seducers and clever manipulators that lead players into traps and such.
It's also made a bit more confusing because Voadam has the right of it: they are unequivocally gendered in their "true form" (meaning that all true seeing, reveal, illusion-piercing spells etc) show the creature as a male incubus or female succubus. For me personally, it's really hard to divorce the gender piece from either Pathfinder demon, since in pathfinder/DnD their demonic bodies are formed from the heart's desire of the mortal soul that births them: meaning, essentially, that even if a succubus generally wears a male guise, her heart's desire was - from her demonic birth - to be a female creature. Unlike other shapechanger races (which are often either ungendered or intesex in other media), gender is, like, a really really big component here.
Also I totally thought the succubus from earlier looked familiar! It's this gal disguising it up! haha cute!
oh right I forgot the warchief guy was named! hah it took me a second there to even remember that. but yeah still playing the normal role incubi play in PF material: cannon fodder. It's sort of interesting, because I feel that - had cambions existed - it would have been cambions that were used in almost every situation an incubus was used, though the creation of them doesn't really change anything either because there's just now two demonic male brutes with smarter/sexier female equivalents instead of just the one. anyways, I've obviously given waaaay too much thought to Paizo's split of the incubi-succubi cambion-alu-fiend material.
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Also @Joanna, TY for necroing this thread because I had to keep reminding myself to share and credit Pathfinder for some GREAT success since last year/two years ago or whenever this was started. Imo Paizo is so lovely and awesome and you can really see that there was genuine impact from so many people talking about it!
The Feral Hunter from the Advanced Class Guide: pretty awesome. I have to say *I* think it's rad as all get out that this dude's armor is what it is.
the next two are from Iron Gods, which was said somewhere last year that they hoped to use to address some of the concerns from the crowd: well, they definitely did!
Magus Technomancer Ozmyn Zaidow, the unnecessarily gorgeous and un-armored wizardly leader of the Technic League, a guild of brainiacs and int-based characters. yep. his underlings wear normal outfits, not him though.
Kevoth Kul The Black Soveriegn is the leader of Numeria, and has a harem of 4 male rogues and 4 female rogues because basically he does what he feels like.
They could have gone a lot of ways with some of these pics. A lot of ways that don't involve being awesome. But they didn't and this makes my day every day :D
