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Every fan servicey female character should be presented alongside an equally fan servicey male character.
If embracing the bara makes the artist uncomfortable, then he should probably tone down the fan service in general.
This is only tangentially related to the OP's point but I care about it more so shrug.
He could be the god of physical fitness or something, where your body is your temple and you get some sort of bonus for attracting people.
Close but not quite on the nose is Kurgess. How attractive is he is currently left to the player's imagination.
Assistant Software Developer
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Just a note. I have no control over anything but my little bit which doesn't relate to anything that gets published. This is me participating as someone who really likes our stuff, but I think some better, more targeted criticism would likely find their way to others ears.
The OP specifically mentioned that his idea of male beauty was quite different from what has been presented so far. And others have spoken in various ways on that. I think it would be more productive to say something like, "I want to see men with larger shoulders" for example than just "I think we should have more beefcake." I don't want to diminish that point, but we've already got a thread dedicated to that thanks to Deadmanwalking. What specifically do you think we're missing for your personal gaze.
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Just a note. I have no control over anything but my little bit which doesn't relate to anything that gets published. This is me participating as someone who really likes our stuff, but I think some better, more targeted criticism would likely find their way to others ears.
The OP specifically mentioned that his idea of male beauty was quite different from what has been presented so far. And others have spoken in various ways on that. I think it would be more productive to say something like, "I want to see men with larger shoulders" for example than just "I think we should have more beefcake." I don't want to diminish that point, but we've already got a thread dedica
ted to that thanks to Deadmanwalking. What specifically do you think we're missing for your personal gaze.
I'm typing this on my phone so forgive the goofs. The primary thing that's required isn't broader shoulders or a six pack. What's needed is a genuine, open, non smarmy smile. Something that communicates a receptive, fun, man that's not saddled with the subtext that he's sexually competing with the author or the artist. They tend to undermine men (making them jerks or ugly brutes) to reinforce the male, PC, nice guy angle. The male npcs can be handsome, decent people without being secetly suspicious.
Short version: depict a handsome young man who is morallyy good and doesn't have a secret shame or ulterior motive.
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Hmmmm. In this regard, I'm genuinely interested to hear what specifically(instead of the less general more good looking men) you would like to see from gay men and straight women gamers who feel like we need more beefcake and how those two groups may differ and whether there might something that gay women or straight men think we are missing in that regard as well?
Hmm... Just off the cuff and a bit rambly, but...
Besides stressing variety:
We don't really seem to have a lot of straight-up bishounen/"pretty boy" types, it seems. I just realized that the four PCs I've had that would qualify for the term and also have avatar aliases here are all using female avatars because there were no fitting male equivalents.
Fantastic and exotic male love interests. We see a lot of distinctly non-human female love interests and fanservice, but the male side of things is frequently lacking. It was recently noted on one of the related threads that we've had three attractive female genies in distress in the AP line, but no equally attractive male ones(and one of those female genies was originally male in the first draft before getting changed to female). Just as we've had harpy love interests and numerous nymphs here and there, it would be nice to have some male options along those lines. Whether it's a "troubled but cute" tiefling guy or a particularly open-minded and adventurous young strix or a gregarious and biped-curious cecaelia, exotic male love interests would be appreciated but they don't get nearly as much attention.
Along those same lines, toning down the "beautiful woman/not-so-beautiful man" dichotomy that seems to be built into many races might help too. For example, look at the Advanced Race Guide's two examples for Oreads. D: On a less extreme note, compare the male and female Undines. The female one is truly alien and beautiful looking, where the guy seems far more mundane and less fantastic. Imagine having a male undine equivalent to the female in that book...
And also connected to fantastic love interests but also tying into what Selk said about personality: One issue that still hangs over male characters/creatures noted for their sexuality is that the males tend to get portrayed as predatory. Compare the incubi to the (still predatory)succubi, and the satyrs to the nymphs. Having males be sensual without that seems a rarity sometimes. (This is another reason why unambiguously sex-positive Lymnieris is such a breath of fresh air)
Also also connected to that line of thought, we have a lot of "naked woman" creatures out there, from nymphs to lyrakiens to rusalka, but male equivalents simply aren't anywhere to be found beyond the fossegrim. And those are evil and want to drown you.
And having just said that, there is still plenty of room for darkly handsome/beautiful male love interests with that hint of danger around them and I just recalled another NPC that might qualify for "bishounen":
Which kind of also sidesteps the problematic "BDSM is evil" thing, but only partially because...y'know. ;)
Just linking one example for now:
Looks confident but at ease, not that competitive look mentioned upthread. But considering how subjective preferences and art are, I'm sure that piece is going to elicit different reactions from others.
Also, at the far end of feminine male beauty...
As for women... Honestly, more attractive women with some "masculine" traits could be cool too. This gets into heavy subjectivity and all, but
I guess what I'm getting to there is more female love interests that were more adventurous and less "played safe" in appearance would be awesome too.
Have we mentioned how awesome it is that these questions are asked of the fans? :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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While it doesn't present a deity exactly, the Iridian Fold explored in the current web fiction "Boar and Rabbit" might be of interest as well.
Have you read The Redemption Engine?
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Relevant to this thread but slightly tangential, one of the fantasy paintings that always sticks in my mind showed an experienced adventurer at an inn holding an audience with what were assumed to be less experienced adventurers.
One of the audience was a female, but she was distinctly on the plain side; she was 'chunky' (not fat but hefty), looked a little worn down and actually looked like someone who travelled about the place killing monsters for a living.
That image stayed with me but I cannot recall who the painting was by. It would be one of the famous fantasy artists (Achillios or Elmore possibly) because the image was in a portfolio of fantasy paintings.
Anyway, I'd love to see more 'ordinary' people being illustrated. People who look like adventurers rather than supermodels. I have no objection to a few 'eye-candy' examples, but I'd really like illustrations where the adventurers don't look like they've just stepped out of the styling boutique.
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I wholeheartedly support more art for queer guys and gals. I'm not myself, but I truly feel the beef and cheesecake (and do we call it something different if it's targeting gay men instead of straight women?) ratio should be equal.
But...it just seems to me that we're still lacking a big buff muscly paragon of masculinity ala Conan. That pic of Val working out with the anvils was pretty cool, and I'm glad everyone took off their shirts for the mythic photoshoot, but I'm an 80s-90s kid. Let's get some rough buff tough guys going. Like a big Ulfen guy with a rough beard, and bulging biceps, who looks like he washed down a steroid riddled ox roast with a gallon of mead...
Also, speaking as a DM who tries to find art for as many NPCs as possible, and has searched through tons of fantasy art, I can say the following demographics are most woefully underrepresented across the genre at large.
Average looking people, particularly women
Middle aged looking people, particularly women and non-human
Senior citizens, particularly non-human, particularly good looking ones.
I think when adressing the number of "naked female monzters" vs "predatory males" you need to realize rhis isn't really a paizo issue.
Its a general wester culture thing where folklore and religion interact. If you re create these myths without heavily reimagining them that bias carries over.
I think the other problem is when doing fantasy art its a mixture of modern cultural ideals with those of the mythology.
In the case of The paizo ip stuff while it has a uniform art style none of it has a uniform cultural sttle beyond modern fantasy art.
I think the solution is that at least when dealing with the few gender swapping dieties they just need to follow the same definition of pretty boy.
As I said in my last post when I read the description of calistria I assumes her male form was like the classical depictions of apollo.
A thought did occur to me do some gods when swapping gemders still identify with their "normal" gender? It seems a god with no real fixed gender or opposite will be depicted differently than calistria who is identified primarily as female.
Does anyone have any folkloric imagery of mythologies that had gender swapping dieties? All I could find for loki was marvel stuff as a super villainess. Loki is one of the most familiar gods for this but until I read this thread I realized I had no idea what female loki looked like.
Incidentally, addressing this point:
Even classical painters sometimes used female models for the bodies of male characters who they intended to look appealing (most often the buttocks), because the heterosexual male painter (and/or the intended owner of the painting) associated beautiful physical form with the female body.
That's wrongly assuming those painters were heterosexual. Not all were. Michelangelo, for example, was gay, as were several others. The images they depicted were usually shaped by the culture of the time rather than their personal sexuality. That's why Michelangelo's David has such small genitalia - it was supposed to be more 'manly' in those times!
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Hmmmm. In this regard, I'm genuinely interested to hear what specifically(instead of the less general more good looking men) you would like to see from gay men and straight women gamers who feel like we need more beefcake and how those two groups may differ and whether there might something that gay women or straight men think we are missing in that regard as well?
Straight female gamer here. Thanks for listening, Lissa.
Your art director should note, in the first sentence when describing a male character that they are attractive. When soliciting art from (mostly) straight male artists they probably default to attractive representations of females unless they're specifically instructed otherwise. With males they probably 'default' to a wider interpretation.
This is very true. Female NPCs who aren't described as sexy still tend to get sexy art, because fantasy artists like drawing hot chicks. The oread Mizake mentions is an example: They're the same race, but the female is clearly more human-like and traditionally attractive than the male.
It's not just the art order, though; it starts with the NPC descriptions in the adventure itself. As I noted here in regard to Souls for Smuggler's Shiv, the females are described as notably attractive while the male NPCs are undercut by looking plain or older than their years. There seems to be a one-sided Lake Wobegon effect going on, where the women of Golarion are all above average in looks. (I mean, even the Gray Maidens, who have supposedly had their beauty ruined by facial mutilation, are drawn hot.)
What's needed is a genuine, open, non smarmy smile. Something that communicates a receptive, fun, man that's not saddled with the subtext that he's sexually competing with the author or the artist. They tend to undermine men (making them jerks or ugly brutes) to reinforce the male, PC, nice guy angle. The male npcs can be handsome, decent people without being secretly suspicious.
This. So. Much. This. Men who would otherwise be attractive are instead off-putting because they're drawn snarling, or scowling, or smirking. Compare the image of Balder linked above (hot) vs. the new art of Cayden Cailean from Inner Sea Gods (yikes!). I know which one I'd rather have approach me in a bar and which one I'd be staying in a well-lit area with lots of witnesses with until I could escape.
I don't think there's a point in getting too specific, as tastes vary, but, imo, the above-linked image of Balder is hot (clean, attractive, masculine, looking straight at the viewer, pleasant expression). Pretty much every depiction of Abadar I've seen is attractive (noble-looking, not yelling or scowling). Most images of Valeros he looks too dirty, snide, and/or out of control, but Mythic Valeros is hot. This guy (from the Rival Guide I think?). The half-orc on p. 17 of Orcs of Golarion. There's actually few enough pics of men in Paizo products that have made me stop and say "Damn!" that I can pretty much list them from memory.
Basically, guys who look reasonably intelligent and like they don't have anger-management issues, in a variety of body types. Too many fantasy artists seem to think that "mindless rage" or "smoldering contempt" is an attractive expression.
To show just how subjective matters like this can be, when I look at Arshea's artwork my eyes don't read it as "masculine woman" but primarily as "extremely feminine and pretty man" before it clicks entirely in "could go either way" territory. Like withAndrej Pejic.some photos of Andrej Pejic.
Yeah, that's what I thought too.
Also, at the far end of feminine male beauty...
Which makes his (apparently) conventional sexuality that much more ironic.
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(I mean, even the Gray Maidens, who have supposedly had their beauty ruined by facial mutilation, are drawn hot.)
To be fair in reagrds to grey maidens I seem to recall that they were supposed to be very attractive origonally the entire thing with the scarring being the queen having a none shall be as beutifull as me moment (So kind of pointless doing it to people she considers less beutifull than her). Also I could be wrong but I seem to only recall ever seeing two grey maidens without a helmet on.
hot girls, guys are not:
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1390/59/1390590044523.png
The half-orc is not bad. The dwarf, while unattractive, is just a typical dwarf. The halfling is kind of cute (but in a "little kid" way, and arouses parental feelings in me). That elf though, is just plain hideous! I thought elves were supposed to be an attractive race?
Their expressions though... all the females have neutral or friendly expressions while the males are all scowling or grumpy looking.
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Yeah, I find Golarion elves horribly unattractive, with the insectoid/alien eyes and the pallor and the extreme emaciation. Doesn't help that that particular elf has the epitome of the sullen, "I'm a tough guy, back off" expression.
Hmmmm. In this regard, I'm genuinely interested to hear what specifically (instead of the less general more good looking men) you would like to see from gay men and straight women gamers who feel like we need more beefcake and how those two groups may differ and whether there might something that gay women or straight men think we are missing in that regard as well?
I wrote a lot but I've got a migraine so I don't have the energy to edit it all. For now I'll just say these are examples of what I think is nice to look at (plus more skin is always welcome):
http://oi58.tinypic.com/j7uudv.jpg
http://oi60.tinypic.com/scvtsl.jpg
(delete the space in the URL... not sure why I keep having this issue)
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090614000861/memoryalpha/de/images/ a/ab/SamLavelle2370.jpg
Also, at the far end of feminine male beauty...
This is a woman:
http://www.nautiljon.com/images/jeuxvideo_persos/00/65/cecil_harvey_1456.jp g?1331934724(again, delete the weird space that was inserted)
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Like a big Ulfen guy with a rough beard, and bulging biceps, who looks like he washed down a steroid riddled ox roast with a gallon of mead...
We've totally got one of those. He's a dude in distress who tags along with the party from there out too even!
Krojun Eats-What-He-Kills fills in there too... and earlier someone brought up an imbalance of female genies in distress in Legacy of Fire, but, only one of them needs rescuing, and she's technically balanced out
To me, the imbalance on the illustration front is more:
-NPCs (especially those who are utterly insignificant and don't honestly merit having art included in the book at all) are more likely to receive illustrations if they are female (not by a huge degree, but it's an easy thing to pay attention to and correct).
- Female NPCs, regardless of age/race/alignment/backstory whatever, have a strong tendency to default to pretty with friendly/seductive expressions, while males... honestly have a pretty healthy variety to how they're portrayed. Which is great, but contrasts poorly here.
I'm as straight as they come, and I still don't see what's remotely problematic in any way about the guy who played Sam Lavelle. Er ... Dan Gauthier? Great-lookin' dude. Could have played Superman.
Now the other guy is in my eyes pretty-pouty, which really gets on my nerves, but is in no way genuinely objectionable—just a matter of taste.
I don't see why either could be a problem. If women and gay men enjoy those images, well ... let's give the people what they want.
Dan has nice eyes especially. I like the more boyish face of the guy you called pouty, but they're both good.
As far as body images, I have a lot of them that I could post but I need to sift through to find the ones that I can post without getting banned (lol). Since men tend to wear baggy non-revealing clothing, most of the best pix are bare butt which obviously won't fly.
That brings me to an illustration I saw recently of a young guy who was given the "chainmail bikini" treatment. His back was to the viewer and he was slightly crouched, facing a large monster. Although he had armor, he also had a sort of cape loincloth that revealed both sides of his buttocks and parts of his legs. Although such outfits aren't realistic, it's nice to get a bit of titillation by seeing a good male body with the sort of armor that females routinely get in fantasy.
It also wasn't the Boris Vallejo super-muscular no body fat body type that I don't care much for. More of a swimmer's build with something like 13% body fat looks better in my opinion, and especially without the bronzing. I personally think pale skin is more attractive than all the spray-on tans that are so popular.
Although I bet a lot of the ladies will disagree, I think young guys are the most appealing. I don't like wrinkles, beard stubble, mustaches, and things like that. I prefer a more teenage look, like 18-20. Pretty and athletic...
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You've neatly illustrated another point that I was going to make.
We all have different ideas of what is 'attractive'. I'm a straight male and prefer women with some meat on their bones, others like skinny and busty, skinny and boyish, athletic, tall and slim, short and fat, and so on and so forth.
Gay friends say that the same works for them with men, there are fans of 'bears' for whom huge and hairy is good, those who like slimmer and less hairy and all the other ranges in the spectrum.
I know of some women who like short bald men. Others like 'pretty boys', still others prefer mean and moody, and so on.
The problem with all this in artwork is that an artist/publisher will probably be swayed by media images. Hence the portrayals that come straight from 'Models 'R' Us'. If an artist paints a particular look and gets positive feedback, he or she will probably go for that look again. All questions as to why his or her illustrations have enormous boobs and blonde hair will be met with 'because that what the public wants'.
Unfortunately for that argument, the public is made of a lot of different opinions. Who here hasn't thought an advert was rubbish and inappropriate, despite the ad agency believing that they were targeting what the 'public wants'?
If there were three art portfolios of fantasy illustration; one showing 'cheesecake', one showing sanitised but supermodel-level characters, and one showing worn and realistic adventurers, I would buy the last portfolio. Which would sell more copies isn't hard to predict, but that doesn't mean that the entire market wants that sort of artwork.
I'd love a fantasy illustrator to come out with a portfolio of illustrations of what 'real' adventuring and adventurers look like. I doubt it will happen however, because 'that's not what the market wants'.
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http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1390/59/13905900445 23.png
Yeah, the half-orc is pretty okay. I think that one does a lot of good; it shows that while half-orcs look rather rough, they're not necessarily ugly. Although the green is something you have to like. Going nicely with not getting a Charisma penalty anymore, we're rehabilitating a race here.
I think the human and half-elf are an interesting case; the human woman looks healthy to me, but the half-elf is a supermodel. If you wanted to make a case about humans often envying half-elves (those poor, poor misunderstood half-elves) you have a good start there.
If you want to make a point about racial stereotypes, those pictures are good arguments.
I don't get what's up with the male elf though. The half-elf was all smooth angles, but he's got really unpleasant hard angles in his face. He looks like he's grumpy about the orc being more muscular than him. And the hands look a bit weird.
The dwarf - he looks like he should go on a diet. I mean, even the halfling looks like he's working out instead of binge-eating, but not the dwarf?
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I appreciate that this subject is being listened to. As a gay guy, I'm rarely wowed by fantasy art. However, it IS quite tricky.
On the one hand, overly sexualizing male characters won't work out well. I don't think it would go down well if you sexualized male characters to the degree that is often done to female characters - which is unfair. I think it would actually make me uneasy handling the book in front of friends. Nobody should ever see another's porn collection. On the whole Paizo's been good at being more tasteful than older D&D editions.
On the other hand, you have this wide variety of tastes to cope with. Some people prefer the clean-cut, young, vigorous and healthy in mind and body look. Then there's the suave older man look a la George Clooney, that can be quite appropriate for classes like Wizard that are supposed to start adventuring at a later age. Then there's the so-ugly-it's-baddass look like Danny Trejo in Machete. Or Schwarzenegger's Conan. And there's all kinds of winkie looks. And the troubled bad-boy look. Various wild hairstyles, piercings, tattoos and so forth. Saville Row vs. bearskin. And many others. I think there's an opportunity here for design; rather than come up with a character's appearance very late in the design process, move it forward a bit. Also, have a big list of archetypal ways of looking good available, to pick from, so you don't get stuck in a rut of always using the same flavor of handsome. This requires some research but there will probably be people who enjoy the assignment ;)
On the gripping hand, you have a Race Problem. As illustrated by the picture above. When you introduce a new race, whatever first picture you provide will typecast them. I think that's a good reason to try to use multiple pictures instead, to show more of a range of ways the race looks like instead of one archetypal individual. You can have one butch elf dude and one wiry pouty one. One rough guy half-orc with lots of chest hair and one slick and oiled crimelord in a nice suit. There's a special challenge with small races like gnomes and halflings, for making them look like adults.
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On the one hand, overly sexualizing male characters won't work out well. I don't think it would go down well if you sexualized male characters to the degree that is often done to female characters - which is unfair. I think it would actually make me uneasy handling the book in front of friends. Nobody should ever see another's porn collection. On the whole Paizo's been good at being more tasteful than older D&D editions.
In my experience it is only the truest of friendships in which you can exchange porn, but my friends group is probably rather unique in that regard.
I highly object to the notion that a scantily clad Calistrian priestess with a full T&A pose could be acceptable while a male character doing the same thing would be considered borderline porn. I understand if you makes you uncomfortable, it's just rather irksome that fantasy artists in general seem to prioritize your comfort over mine.
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To address the point about differing standards of, and preferences regarding, attractiveness:
Yes, people's standards differ significantly...but at the moment conventional standards of female attractiveness are very well represented, while conventional standards of male attractiveness are not.
That's a clear disparity and needs to be addressed.
Inevitably, some objectively rather attractive, people of both genders will not be to everyone's taste, but the majority of male illustrations at the moment seem...designed to cater to very few people's tastes, sexually speaking. While the female illustrations are sorta the opposite (ie: designed to cater to many people's tastes).
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The male deities, apart from Cayden Cailean, are entirely asexual. Who is Nethys sleeping with? Or Irori? Or Gorum? Or Abadar?Nethys is too caught up in his experiments
Irori is too busy being all physically and mentally perfect to be distracted by things like love/sex
Gorum is a suit of sentient armor that became a god, so though he's called a he, he's got no genitals, or intestines or anything of that matter really
Abadar is busy running a city, but he could be interested in sexAt least you didn't get to asking about Rovagug...
also, there are dwarven deities who are explicitly stated as married.
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On the one hand, overly sexualizing male characters won't work out well. I don't think it would go down well if you sexualized male characters to the degree that is often done to female characters - which is unfair. I think it would actually make me uneasy handling the book in front of friends. Nobody should ever see another's porn collection. On the whole Paizo's been good at being more tasteful than older D&D editions.In my experience it is only the truest of friendships in which you can exchange porn, but my friends group is probably rather unique in that regard.
I highly object to the notion that a scantily clad Calistrian priestess with a full T&A pose could be acceptable while a male character doing the same thing would be considered borderline porn. I understand if you makes you uncomfortable, it's just rather irksome that fantasy artists in general seem to prioritize your comfort over mine.
Please understand me correctly - I don't want to justify the inequality. I think it's hypocritical that we're more comfortable with displaying female sexuality.
But I don't think it would be a good move to put just as much male sexuality on display. That would just make everything more embarassing.
As a thought exercise for artists though, it might be educational if they tried to make one overtly sexual piece of men for every piece of women. But while the artist (or art director commissioning the pieces) might learn from that, I don't think it should be put in RPG books; I don't think it'd help the quality.
It's entirely possible that my sensibilities in this are just weird. I'm a gay man and naked women don't titillate me; it's just vaguely embarassing to lug around such pictures. However, I'd feel VERY self-conscious with pictures of equally-sexualized men.
So my personal preference would be a light sprinkling of attractive men, but done tastefully.
Can I ask what pictures are you talking about?sex pot (getting a space in the file name for some reason -- delete it to load image)
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Just some examples I pulled up quickly. Women are typically presented as busty and men are presented as fully clothed and not particularly cute. There is a great page in a Star Wars Saga book that has a guy in a space suit so you can see nothing and women in barely anything. It's typical.
linkified
In general the boards don't like raw urls. Instead type [ url={copied link}]Something you want to write about the link[/url]
Of course ditch the space before the first "url."
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-snip-
I'd love a fantasy illustrator to come out with a portfolio of illustrations of what 'real' adventuring and adventurers look like. I doubt it will happen however, because 'that's not what the market wants'.
I get to live my real life all week, I like some fantasy in my fantasy.
I'd feel VERY self-conscious with pictures of equally-sexualized men.
This is rather hyperbolic since there are obviously tiers:
1) attractiveness parity for rather tame images (like the one showing the races)
2) attractiveness parity for sexier images
3) attractiveness parity for risque images
4) attractiveness parity for adult images
To use the word porn in this conversation really goes off the deep end. No one is talking about level 4.
Also, all the stuff about wanting more ordinary people is nice and all but it's pretty irrelevant to what this topic is about, which is attractiveness parity between the sexes (and to a lesser extent taste differences between gay men and heterosexual women).
Anyone who wants to understand what this topic is about should Google the following: star wars saga edition legacy era
Do that and look at the art in the PDF that someone uploaded of the book (skip to pages 38-39 if you like). You should be able to see, very clearly, what I'm talking about. Yes, it's not Paizo, but it is the point of view that is overwhelmingly dominant in gaming.
What do you have? You have attractive women with poses, clothing, and expressions that say "come here, babe" and you have old, wrinkled, big-nosed, men in unflattering clothing (sometimes even completely hidden in space suits). There is just one illustration in the entire book that presents a female as not sexy, and that is the purposefully ridiculous female Hutt in a small picture at the back of the book.
Look at the front cover. You have a wrinkled tough guy in front and a seductress to his left. There's another scantily clad female figure prominently displayed. Next to her is a typically beastly male. Of all the figures on the cover, only one male shows any skin and it's nothing to write home about. In fact, he's the only male who shows any skin in the whole book.
Then, for those who are pining for homely people... the Introduction page art shows a fat guy with the required wrinkles and facial hair. It also shows a deranged wrinkled guy with a predatory expression over a female who is passed out. In the center is a robotic-looking male who is anything but alluring.
Turning to the next page we get an ugly demonic guy and a heavily wrinkled guy with a big nose in bland clothing and a gruff pose and expression.
Then, we turn and find a very attractive female with breasts clearly the focal point, as well as her face. She has a weapon, but her pose suggests availability. The weapon seems tacked on.
The large Species page art shows four typical males. One is a heavily wrinkled James bond type (Chiss) who is supposed to be ruggedly handsome but instead is just typically bland and "tough". Next to him is a guy who looks like a strange clown. There is an androgynous figure in action of little interest. There is also a contemplative ugly man with the required wrinkles. Turning the page we see two monstrous figures. The male, who is just a hideous head is next to a female with large breasts and more attractive clothing.
Turning further we see a beautiful supermodel Chiss female and the contemplative wrinkled male again. Turning again we see another model female who is not at all gruff, angry, tough, and so on. In fact, other than the fact that she has four arms, she looks like she could be out of a women's fashion mag. Contrast this with the "Klatoonian" on the next page who looks like a mutated dog with its fur removed. The next page has the clown guy again. And, the next page has an extremely wrinkled male "Weequay" who looks like a piece of gristle with eyes and hair. A bit further in we have the female sex pot whose very large breasts are quite exposed and the shot's angle invites you to look between them. She has no wrinkles and has an inviting pose and expression.
The next page has a male in complete body armor that obscures all features, the supermodel female Chiss, and a woman who is sexualized despite the not quite believable tough expression. Turning a page we see yet another monstrous male with heavy clothing. Page 22 has a plain-looking man in typically bland clothing and a "can do" work ethic expression (not at all sultry). Turning a bit more we see Steffi Graf again shooting a gun.
AND NOW... this is the prime shot... the best example of the entire book... Chapter III Prestige Classes. If you look at this page and can't see my point with ringing fire alarms then I can't help.
page 58.. Another woman with prominent large breasts and a not unpleasant pose and expression. Page 70.. your typical male fantasy character... all about fighting and nothing else. Page 79... another typical male character. All business no pleasure. Deep facial fissures, deep frown wrinkle between eyes, thin colorless lips, ugly hairstyle, bland heavy clothing, etc. Page 92.. another man with heavy wrinkle syndrome. Next page... Surprise! Another man with heavy wrinkle syndrome, fully obscuring clothing, and he's old, too! Page 95... another male in completely obscuring clothing.
Page 105... two perfect examples of fantasy maleness. Hideous and bestial. Extreme wrinkling. Page 119... more typical males (anonymous and sexless). Page 129... more of the same. Page 131.. more of the same, with more griminess thrown in for good measure. 135... yet another monstrous male. Page 138... Big Nose Smirker.
Page 154... A perfect example page. This is the epitome of fantasy maleness. Monstrous. Heavily wrinkled. Tiny eyes. Menacing. Heavy clothing. Page 155... another female with large breasts, no wrinkles, a soft expression, and form-fitting clothes and post next to an old wrinkled man in a formless robe. Page 165... woman with prominent breasts and red hot outfit. Supermodel looks. Next to her is an ugly guy with an angry expression and fully obscuring clothing. A similar set of figures is to the right, with the male completely turned into a mechanized killing machine. Next page... homely man, somewhat bland but still cute girl in flight suit, male in completely hiding armor. Page 167.. more women with prominent breasts, no wrinkles, and tight clothing. 169.. more monster males. More of the same until 176 where you meet Super Slut. She is followed by Old Man. A new ugly man appears after him. and so on...
This book is not the aberration. It is totally the norm.
And, one of the unfortunate aspects is that the artist is clearly very good. I really like the way many of the images look like they're made with natural materials instead of digital rendering. But, there is absolutely no balance in terms of how the sexes are depicted. I'm tired of "can do" men who are all business (and wrinkles), male monsters of various shapes and sizes, and women with big breasts. Gaming can be more than that.
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To be fair in reagrds to grey maidens I seem to recall that they were supposed to be very attractive origonally the entire thing with the scarring being the queen having a none shall be as beutifull as me moment (So kind of pointless doing it to people she considers less beutifull than her). Also I could be wrong but I seem to only recall ever seeing two grey maidens without a helmet on.(I mean, even the Gray Maidens, who have supposedly had their beauty ruined by facial mutilation, are drawn hot.)
I have to admit, the impression I took away from the original description(and the one I used as a GM) was that the
With Sabina however, I simply assumed* she "got off light" because she was Ileosa's favorite, so she was spared the worst of it out of the Queen's selfishness more than anything else. For the rest, it was a genuine horror show. To the point that restorations and regenerations were absolutely put on the schedule for the surviving Maidens my group managed to wrangle and put into a Sarenite asylum built specifically for them.
*Actually, my first reaction was that Sabina's scars were self-inflicted due to her guilt over what was being done to her soldiers. I believe that was noted to not be the actual intention, but it's what I ran with when I ran it, to emphasize that she was a sympathetic, though misguided, character.
Also, at the far end of feminine male beauty...Which makes his (apparently) conventional sexuality that much more ironic.
** spoiler omitted **
Not only is he the prettiest hero in the entire franchise, but
Although I do still support the Cecil/Rosa/Kain OT3 thing. ;)
face is a woman's, body is fairly masculine though (not Pathfinder or Paizo)... still, the overall gist is that masculinity is hot only when it is almost a woman (even the pectorals seem like breasts). The art is clever and very well crafted, but it's not the ideal of male beauty in my book.
Going back to just how subjective beauty can be, I personally find that face still within "male" range. Then again, I really dig that kind of androgynous aesthetic. That image pretty much nails what I'd expect from a "male nymph" equivalent. It's honestly something I'd like to see more of in Pathfinder.
And I'm glad that artist's link is in the image. :D I do believe I'm going to try and get my tiefling paladin dr-
Commissions closed
D:
amirite?
No.
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I thought Seltyiel was the "sexy" male iconic.
Am I wrong?
I've never been able to view him that way ever since he hooked up with Alain in that one piece of fanart. I mean, I know he's LE, but I thought he had standards.
I keed, I keed. Mythic Seltyiel is like...damn.
However, he does still fall into that evil/smirky camp that was mentioned upthread. It's not a bad thing, but right now many feel it's the only option that gets considerable airtime at the moment.
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So Calistria isn't offensive (or this) but a male lust god would be?
The linked picture is offensive because of how badly the artist drew those women's faces. Those empty, staring eyes... *shivers*
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I thought Seltyiel was the "sexy" male iconic.
Am I wrong?
Not sexy at all to me. For one thing he has zero body fat. His clothing isn't particularly form-fittingly revealing, and his face and expression are neither handsome nor pretty.
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The linked picture is offensive because of how badly the artist drew those women's faces. Those empty, staring eyes... *shivers*
So Calistria isn't offensive (or this) but a male lust god would be?
The vacuity is intentional. It accomplishes two things. 1. It makes the women appear available, because they are the type that overflow with lust. 2. It makes them seem menacingly hungry, but unintelligent enough to yield to the powerful male viewer.
That's so weeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrd.
(That's, like, the opposite of anything desirable.)
That's so weeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrd.
(That's, like, the opposite of anything desirable.)
What is? The Drow illustration?
I am going to go lift some anvils on chains, brb
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The vacuity is intentional. It accomplishes two things. 1. It makes the women appear available, because they are the type that overflow with lust. 2. It makes them seem menacingly hungry, but unintelligent enough to yield to the powerful male viewer.The linked picture is offensive because of how badly the artist drew those women's faces. Those empty, staring eyes... *shivers*
So Calistria isn't offensive (or this) but a male lust god would be?
If that's what the artist thinks is desirable... that's pretty weird.
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I thought Seltyiel was the "sexy" male iconic.
Am I wrong?
Mrs Snorter does seem to think so.
I'm going to have to consider wearing corpsepaint.
And spats.
(Always with the spats. Does Reynolds have shares in a retro shoe-wear company?)
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Besides stressing variety:
We don't really seem to have a lot of straight-up bishounen/"pretty boy" types, it seems. I just realized that the four PCs I've had that would qualify for the term and also have avatar aliases here are using female avatars because there were no fitting male equivalents.
I feel your pain; I have to use a halfling!
The ignominy!
Oh, the Gnomanity!