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Well, first off, technically, Rahadoum doesn't have anything against Druids, Oracles, or other Divine characters who lack a deity. Now, in practice, there's a lot of prejudice and suspicion (since Divine characters get suspected of being secret deity worshipers), but being one isn't technically illegal. The same is true of Witches. And Alchemists are gonna be lauded for what they do.
Now, that being the case...what spells don't they have access to again?
In total, they do have less access to healing magic...but by no means no access at all. Their Arcane magic is also quite competitive (I'm inclined to say well above average, actually)...and Wizard is the most powerful class in the game.
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No one feeds their country with create food, and while Rahadoum is a desert and could benefit from create water, no one irrigates their crops with it, either.
Healthcare? Rahadoum still has bards and alchemists, and tolerates witches and druids. (And Thuvia is next door, and produces some of the finest alchemists in the Inner Sea.)
High level characters are rare: it seems like your argument is that their neighbors should be interested in conquering them for their resources. But I don't see how a big army of lower level warriors supported by low-level wizards is much worse off than a big army of lower level warriors supported by low-level wizards and clerics is an unfair fight, exactly.
Lacking divine magic isn't a major deficiency when you still have arcane magic.
Heck, by the logic you give, Razmiran should have been reabsorbed into the River Kingdoms already.
So Druids are okay there, for the most part? That's a nice little tidbit, Ross.
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Druids are divine spellcasters, and as such would be lumped in with clerics and oracles and the like in Rahadoum.
But yeah; they're fine with alchemists and bards and witches... as long as they're not religious, of course!
But also... the world isn't so dangerous overall that if you don't have divine casters handy you're doomed. Furthermore, as we explain in Pathfinder #8, having divine spellcasters isn't going to give you immunity to things like widespread plague.
On top of that, Outsiders value Rahadoum as neutral territory, to meet and parlay with one another. So there might be a bit of resistance from the clergy of surrounding nations to attempt to bring Rahadoum "back into the fold".
So Druids are okay there, for the most part? That's a nice little tidbit, Ross.
The canon is scattershot about this.
Some sources basically assume the Rahadoumi can distinguish between arcane and divine magic (which despite arcane and divine scrolls being different in the Core Rulebook, those differences seem largely forgotten everywhere else), and outlaw one and not the other, which would bar druids, oracles, and rangers, but keeps witches unscathed.
Other sources stick to the ideal of the Laws of Man being that you're fine as long as you don't pledge yourself to a greater power, which makes druids and oracles mostly okay, since most don't have a deity, and leaves rangers doing fine. It also puts witches in a bit of a weird position: they don't get power from a higher source, but the way their patron/familiar works makes it clear they at least get knowledge that way. (And as we know, knowledge is power.) It also puts diabolist/demonologist wizards and sorcerers with certain bloodlines in a tight spot.
In the latter case, druids still would have to be careful what they say or do, lest an over-zealous Legionnaire accuse them of placing Nature above Mankind. And likewise, some might view witches as just being a wizard who keeps a cat, while others might view them as being pawns just like clerics are.
I imagine having ANY sort of magical power in Rahadoum as being akin to sympathizing with the workers during a Red Scare. You may or may not actually be a communist, but you certainly don't want anyone else to think you are. Does that make sense?
I'm pretty sure oracles aren't okay because that was the whole point of the iconic oracle's backstory. Though that it was mainly because to the general population, what oracles are and where their powers come from is poorly understood, and so they get lumped in with clerics.
Some of the base classes are in fact rare enough for what they are to not be in-character knowledge.
Actually, she was mistaken for a priestess(ie cleric/deity worshiper) and kicked out by her family.
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I'm pretty sure oracles aren't okay because that was the whole point of the iconic oracle's backstory. Though that it was mainly because to the general population, what oracles are and where their powers come from is poorly understood, and so they get lumped in with clerics.
Some of the base classes are in fact rare enough for what they are to not be in-character knowledge.
Not being okay legally and culturally are somewhat different things. Alahazra's story dealt with the second, not the first. The first could be true, but it's by no means necessary for the story to work.
Isn't there also a super powerful gold dragon living there in charge of the country. It might look sideways at an invasion.
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Isn't there also a super powerful gold dragon living there in charge of the country. It might look sideways at an invasion.
I think that you are confusing Rahadoum with Hermea.
One reason that Rahadoum may have survived is that many of its neighbors like to have it as a buffer state and a trade partner. Thuvia is probably happy that they do not border Cheliax.
Doh! You are right. Rahadoum should get its own dragon immediately.
I'd say a lot of it is down to having more alchemists and bards, but particularly alchemists, than most. The have a excellent university for wizards and are pretty adept at using arcane magic for engineering projects.
The biggest thing Rahadoum has in it's favor is organization. This is a very efficiently organized society with a strong military and an educated, involved populace, assuming you aren't a slave of course. Nationalism is a big deal there. It's one of the few true modern nation-states in the Inner Sea region, and that makes it a tough nut to crack.
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Personally, I don't like how Rahadoum is presented.
In a world where divine power can cure disease, a nation that denied such power for generations is inconceivable.
I would argue for restructuring Rahadoum as a nation that is built on principles of humanism... which was made manifest in the divine being ARODEN. Oh yeah, there was a God of Man who was a person himself... and given Rahadoum's geographical location, it's reasonable that Aroden came to Rahadoum when he first arrived in Garund after leaving Azlant.
Let's say that Rahadoum venerated Aroden as a role-model and paragon of humanity who emerged upwards to divinity rather than descended from the heavens. They rejected all other faiths, and in fact rejected all other gods, or even the concept of gods. The Law of Man was the Church of Aroden in Rahadoum. In Rahadoum Man is the Measure of all things, and the perfected man was Aroden.
The Church proper was probably more like a Unitarian Universalist service than a more traditional religious gathering. Considering the advanced levels of education in Rahadoum, I can imagine itenerant lecturers and philosophers giving speeches about history, science, letters, etc., rather than leading prayers.
Now Aroden is dead. Rahadoum can be the present-day Atheist, anti-clerical, anti-divine state that it is, but now has a method for it continuing to exist for centuries. The Faithful of Aroden reject the overtures of the other, lesser gods, and hold their ancient compact with the Last Azlanti.
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The thing you have to remember is that Rahadoum's position is less about "Man is great!" and more "The followers of the gods are bastards!"
The Oath Wars were apparently VERY destructive, and the reason the Laws of Man were embraced is because the followers of the guy that came up with them brought order and peace where they were in charge. In their minds, if you have priests curing diseases, the priests can use that as leverage against you, and once they do that, they'll start using as cannon fodder in their conflicts with each other.
It's the same reason the citizens of Cheliax put up with the domineering hand of House Thrune and the Asmodeus worship. It's better than the chaos of war. In fact, that seems to be a looming specter over much of Golarion, a very strong desire to avoid more large scale wars around the Inner Sea. The Mendevian Crusades are kind of an exception, as EVERYBODY knows demons are bad news.
And it's important to note that priests capable of curing disease are rare (which is why Curse of the Crimson Throne's second act is even possible). Since few priests get to that high of a level, Rahadoum likely doesn't feel a need to open the floodgates just for a single priest who can cure maybe a hundred or so people in a day. During a plague that's not going to accomplish much.
Long story short, in a world where divine power can cure disease, it's important to know that that ability alone isn't all that holds a nation together over generations. Pestilence is only one factor that affects it, and it's a factor that hasn't necessarily been hard on Rahadoum anyway compared to what they perceive as the much more dangerous threat of civil war.
If 1 in 5 people were capable healers, this whole: only divine supported countries survive " would make sense.
When the new monarchs (real works history) were first coming about, about 80% were serfs, 19% merchants (probably less), and less than 1% each for nobility and clergy.
This is my approximate model:
If we were to adapt this to pathfinder, less than 1% ( let's say .5% total population) of the serfs would be magic users. Maybe 10% ( 1.9% total population. of the merchants would be magic users. Nobles probably the same as merchants, so .05% magic users in total pop. Clergy probably 80% (there are probably many experts that serve as scribes and such), puting another .4%.
That's 2.85% of golarion (atleast my view of it), being magic users, and maybe 2/3 of that number casting divine (that's a guess). I do not believe that average golarion society relies on that much magical healing, given that most of that 2.85% is probably between level 1
and 4.
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Arcane power can also cure disease, though. Witches, Alchemists, and other such folk are very real. The Divine isn't the only (or even easiest) path to healing magics...it's just the most common.
We're not talking a world where only those devoted to a God can do such things, but a world where that's how things are usually done. That's a pretty big difference.
The thing is, even in cities that have churches, the amount of clerics in them is TINY compared to the amount of occupants of the city. most people do not need healing every day (how often does the average person really need to go to the hospital?). Given that germ theory does not exist in Golorian, plague will spread incredibly quickly regardless of the presence of clerics or not. A cleric's divine magic will have the overall effect of dumping a few buckets of water on a burning house.
This also doesn't factor in the fact that most clerics don't work for free. In most cases, you have to pay the spellcaster service fee in order to get healed, cure disease, etc, which is also beyond the affordable price range of most civilians.
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Arcane power can also cure disease, though. Witches, Alchemists, and other such folk are very real. The Divine isn't the only (or even easiest) path to healing magics...it's just the most common.
We're not talking a world where only those devoted to a God can do such things, but a world where that's how things are usually done. That's a pretty big difference.
Not to mention the fact that the people who usually have this done are adventurers, who are the exception to every rule there is. Most people who get sick are likely to rely on home cures or bedrest anyway.
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The thing you have to remember is that Rahadoum's position is less about "Man is great!" and more "The followers of the gods are bastards!"
The Oath Wars were apparently VERY destructive, and the reason the Laws of Man were embraced is because the followers of the guy that came up with them brought order and peace where they were in charge. In their minds, if you have priests curing diseases, the priests can use that as leverage against you, and once they do that, they'll start using as cannon fodder in their conflicts with each other.
It's the same reason the citizens of Cheliax put up with the domineering hand of House Thrune and the Asmodeus worship. It's better than the chaos of war. In fact, that seems to be a looming specter over much of Golarion, a very strong desire to avoid more large scale wars around the Inner Sea. The Mendevian Crusades are kind of an exception, as EVERYBODY knows demons are bad news.
And it's important to note that priests capable of curing disease are rare (which is why Curse of the Crimson Throne's second act is even possible). Since few priests get to that high of a level, Rahadoum likely doesn't feel a need to open the floodgates just for a single priest who can cure maybe a hundred or so people in a day. During a plague that's not going to accomplish much.
Long story short, in a world where divine power can cure disease, it's important to know that that ability alone isn't all that holds a nation together over generations. Pestilence is only one factor that affects it, and it's a factor that hasn't necessarily been hard on Rahadoum anyway compared to what they perceive as the much more dangerous threat of civil war.
House Thrune has been in charge for a brief period of time. Rahadoum has been anti-clerical/anti-theist for thousands of years - every change in government/culture, etc. has maintained a strict line on the issue. I don't think that's a valid comparison.
Well, first off, technically, Rahadoum doesn't have anything against Druids, Oracles, or other Divine characters who lack a deity.Yes they DO. If it smacks of the divine, it's out of here. The Rahadoumi want no truck with divine power in any way, shape, or form. And they've learned to live without it. And they're learning to live with the gods' revenge as well.
That's assuming there's any divine revenge going on at all. They blame the gods for their drought nothing has been said as to whether the gods are doing anything to them or giving them exactly what they want and not interfering at all.
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One thing I noticed came up a bit in the thread is that somehow divine powers contribute to healthcare. The game itself assigns a cost to these spells which means I boubt any country in golarion has magic health care and any disaster will spread faster than the people able to cast cure disease.
Really its a nation with a strong cuktural unifying force. This is enough to keep it consistant and stable which is probably in the intetest of its neighbors.
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Bards can heal. Maybe not as easily but its also from an Arcane source.
Secondly, Rahadoum is NOT an ATHEIST country. Repeat Not. They are Maltheist.
A Atheist is someone who denies the existence of god/gods.
A Maltheist is someone who recognises that god/s exist, but considers them arrogant/harsh/cruel/whimsical beings that cause suffering and so on. They arnt WORTHY of worship.
Rahadoum is bordered yes by Cheliax to the North (and note on the map that Cheliax also occupies an area on the Garund side of the Coast). However Cheliax has too many of its own issues to worry about in regards to Invading Rahadoum.
Rahadoum also borders Thuvia.. and Thuvia isnt exactly threatening anyone. Their major claim to fame is their immortality drug. They also buffer against Osirion.
To the south you have the Mwangi areas. Again, fracture... chaotic.
Rahadoum's major issue is with the pirates who prey on its coast from the W/SW.
Bards can heal. Maybe not as easily but its also from an Arcane source.
Secondly, Rahadoum is NOT an ATHEIST country. Repeat Not. They are Maltheist.
A Atheist is someone who denies the existence of god/gods.
A Maltheist is someone who recognises that god/s exist, but considers them arrogant/harsh/cruel/whimsical beings that cause suffering and so on. They arnt WORTHY of worship.
Well, they are technically Atheist. Yeah, Paizo used the wrong term, not the messageboards.
You're right in that they should be called Atheist. The first part of the entry has to specifically explain that an Atheist on Golarion is not the same as an Atheist on Earth.
I guess it's because more people irl have an idea of what Atheism is than what Maltheism, Misotheism, Dystheism, or Antitheism is. So they use that term instead. Is it right? Probably not. But what'cha gonna do?
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I think Rahadoum is an interesting place to run adventures. When one usually thinks of a Fantasy RPG setting, one of the common assumptions is that there are a number of gods granting spells to their followers. Rahadoum with its prohibition on worshiping gods makes it an intersting place to have a party of adventurers adventure in. It makes things interesting for the druid / oracle / cleric/ paladin etc...
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Elyas: Port Godless was a Season 5 Pathfinder Society Scenario that was set in Rahadoum. They even put in rules about what happens if foreign clerics are caught within the borders. There have been other scenarios set there (Rahadoum is my fave location in Golarion)
Even if you dont play Society, they are still very useful for background info.
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Also in James Sutter's novels the main character Salim is from there, an a ex-pure legionnaire. the first book goes into a bit of the priest-hunts
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Malthuseism: The real dismal science is theology. Economics is positively jolly compared to damnation.
Since the terminology thing always comes up, the best term I've found recently is "alatrism": the recognition that gods are real paired with a deliberate lack of worship. (Of course, even *that* isn't perfect, because it often goes along with the belief that gods ignore prayers, which clearly isn't true in Pathfinder.)
We went with atheism because nobody knows what terms like alatrism mean, but if we were doing it all over again, we probably would try harder to clarify in the early books. :P
Since the terminology thing always comes up, the best term I've found recently is "alatrism": the recognition that gods are real paired with a deliberate lack of worship. (Of course, even *that* isn't perfect, because it often goes along with the belief that gods ignore prayers, which clearly isn't true in Pathfinder.)
We went with atheism because nobody knows what terms like alatrism mean, but if we were doing it all over again, we probably would try harder to clarify in the early books. :P
I did a double-take when I first read that Rahadoum was atheist but was fine with the explanation. I think I prefer Misotheism for what Rahadoum is but whatever really.
The problem is that Atheists get a lot of s%~* for what they believe (or rather what they don't believe in.) Even those like me who haven't experienced real suffering for their lack of religious belief can be overwhelmed by the negative cultural attitudes towards it. For example, just look at all most every depiction of an Atheist in the past several years except Admiral Lee Adama and maybe Temperance Brennan. This leads more than a few Atheists a little touchy.
There is also a problem of people not really understanding what an Atheist is or what they do and do not believe in. Rahadoum's acceptance of the existence of gods but dismissal of them and persecution of their followers is exactly what many ill-formed religious people think Atheists want. I want to stress right now that I know that it was not intentional but Rahadoum is actually a huge stereotype of what an Atheist believes.
What Rahadoum believes and the specific circumstances behind it are well-explained and intriguing but it is not Atheism. The fact that it matches a silly stereotype (how can we hate God if we don't believe in him?) can rub Atheists the wrong way. That is my long-winded explanation of the most likely reason as to why that "terminology thing always comes up."
Either all that or everyone's just be a stickler for semantics.
Well, theoretically you can be an atheist on Golarion. Someone who says "Gods? Sure I know them! Here is this Razmir guy from Razmiran, who is, in fact, just a powerfull wizard. What's difference between him and your gods? They can grant you access for divine magic? So do demonlords, empyreal lords, the four horsemen... Hell, it seems like even a chicken can grant you access divine magic as long as it is from some outer plane! Face the truth! Your "gods" are not divine beings just some magician who can do better tricks than other ones."
There is difference between knowing that there are some powerful beings out there who call themselves "gods" or acknowledging them as, well, gods.
Not that many people know he's just a powerful Wizard. Most people outside of Razmir don't believe he's a god or godlike at all. They also understand that gods and demon lords are different. If they were on the same level, it would just further prove that there are gods. Actual real-life Atheism is an invalid position on Golarion unless you're insane.
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Since the terminology thing always comes up, the best term I've found recently is "alatrism": the recognition that gods are real paired with a deliberate lack of worship. (Of course, even *that* isn't perfect, because it often goes along with the belief that gods ignore prayers, which clearly isn't true in Pathfinder.)
We went with atheism because nobody knows what terms like alatrism mean, but if we were doing it all over again, we probably would try harder to clarify in the early books. :P
Buddhists technically believed (they're not very dogmatic about this) in gods, but didn't necessarily worship them. They were just another sort of powerful being, some of whom are enlightened, while others are suffering from samsara just like most people. If it helps to imagine the Rahadoumi as non-theolatrists in that sense, who hold that people have souls, and that gods exist, it might be a useful analogy.
Actual real-life Atheism is an invalid position on Golarion unless you're insane.
"Asmodeus does not exist." is an invalid position on Golarion unless you're insane and/or living under a rock.
"Asmodeus is not a God.", or more generally "There is no such thing as divinity." is not.
Denying the existence of Gods as a concept is not the same as denying the existance of specific named beings that other human deign to worship.
Demon lords can grant 'divine' magic, and they are willing to admit to being one powerful outsider among many. Oh, you've sold your soul to Erastil instead of Abraxas? What makes Erastil any more 'divine' than the demon lord of secrets?