Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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And to give people some further information, here's what the hexes produce. Note Bulk materials are used in making settlement structures, not crafting items, and represent large quantities of goods. They will be difficult to transport long distances due to encumbrance, so you want them made nearby or guarded heavily. Also essences are components used in making magic items. There are three progressions of essences, each of which is found in two terrain types (Woodlands and Swamps, Croplands and Water, Mountains and Highlands).
Croplands: All the Bulk Food you will ever need, some Bulk Trade Goods, lots of herbs, the best at cloth, essences,
Woodlands: The best at Bulk Wood, some Bulk Food (from hunting wild game), very little Bulk Ore, the best at wood, lots of herbs, leather, essences
Highlands: The best at Bulk Stone, moderate Bulk Iron, a little Bulk Food and Bulk Trade goods, mineral chemicals (brimstone and such), some herbs, coal/copper/gold, gems
Mountains: The best at Bulk Iron, lots of BulkStone, very little Bulk Trade Goods and Bulk Food, essences, some mineral chemicals, a few herbs, iron/silver/platinum, gems
Swamplands: Moderate amounts of Bulk Food, Iron, Wood, and Trade Goods, essences, mineral chemicals, herbs, leather
Water: Lots of Bulk Food and Trade Goods, essences, pearls, a few herbs in large quantity
Brokenlands: No bulk materials (POIs cannot be built here), essences, mineral chemicals, gems, lots of metals
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, this clears up a few things for me. I wondered what exactly made a Settlement "control" a Hex, but I guess that is clear now. Hopefully transporting goods across long distances will create enough of a hurdle for Settlements to spread their hexes all over the map, but I can see how GW may want to put more control on that.
EDIT: and yummy to the addition about resources. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also to answer an earlier question, companies can build POIs in any suitable wilderness hex. It does not need to be part of a player settlement to do so. The company can then swear allegiance to a settlement if it wishes, turning the company into a sponsored company (but only if the alignment of everyone in the company is close to that of the settlement, everyone in the company has sufficiently high Reputation, etc). This makes that hex part of the settlement's territory so its laws apply and it will probably want to pull resources from that hex to build and upkeep buildings (and the company will want training and protection in exchange, all feudal like).
Currently it is up in the air whether companies can swear to settlements that does not control an adjacent hex to the company's POI. On one hand, we don't want to limit people too much, but on the other hand we don't want the ideal playstyle to be each settlement having no hexes near itself and instead trying to manage companies controlling hexes all over the map to maximize resource variety (which obviously tactically seems foolish, but still, it's weird).
Could you have a distance of influence over which a POI can be considered under Settlement control if a company joins or claims it for that settlement? A sort of radius around the settlement proportional in proximity to it's size/DI or some suitable measure so there's scope but leashed all the same?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you have a distance of influence over which a POI can be considered under Settlement control if a company joins or claims it for that settlement? A sort of radius around the settlement proportional in proximity to it's size/DI or some suitable measure so there's scope but leashed all the same?
Avena,
this is referenced at several points in the past as the "sphere of influence"....but there has never been a clear definition or formula divulged as to how it grows, shrinks, or moves with the perimeter of the claimed PoIs. In theory as more and more PoIs are sworn to a major settlement the "reach" of that settlement grows, but that settlement should also be expected to provide support, trade, and defense to each of its many PoIs, and there will be a practical limit to how much one settlement can do. when that point is reached, settlements will choose to unite and form a Kingdom. Then the calculus will probably change a little. Kingdoms should have a longer and stronger reach than a single settlement, but it too must provide support and defense to its outlying settlements, as the settlements must to PoIs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Currently it is up in the air whether companies can swear to settlements that does not control an adjacent hex to the company's POI.
My suggestion would be to allow anyone to swear to any kingdom they like, but then impose penalties based on how 'disconnected' they are from the kingdom. Think of the early American colonies. Despite the distance they were originally sworn to England, Spain, France, et cetera. However, the distance made communication of orders, transfer of needed supplies, and many other aspects of governing effectively impossible.
If being part of a kingdom provides in game bonuses to a company, and/or a company controlled hex provides bonuses to their sworn kingdom, then those bonuses should be reduced and eventually nullified by distance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very nice analysis Kazz. A few of my personal observations to consider when reading your data:
- We don't see any small rivers (which might be unswimable and crossed by few bridges and fords) or other small localized land features which may prevent passage and create more bottle-necks all over the map. (Hinted at earlier in this tread).
- Cliffs (and other future impassable terrain features) reduce access to hexes, but they are also a good security factor, preventing access from some fronts.
- "Valid hexes" include both "empty" or "suitable wilderness hexes" - where we will build POIs and Outposts - as well as Monster/MonsterHome/Badland hexes - where I believe we can't build POIs/Outpost but we can look for harvesting/gathering rarer and higher quality resources (correct me if I'm wrong). The way I see it, the value of each is quite different, depending on the plans of each guild. On the other hand, NPC hexes will still give common and lower quality resources, so maybe they should not be completely disregarded.
- One more thing to consider when choosing starting position: closeness to other settlement, including future settlements spots that will unlock later. For example, AC might look like a good spot, but once the two other settlement spots on that mountain are opened, it can become a bit crowded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder: are the mineral components fungible, or are they a class of resource that are not interchangeable with each other?
My inner alchemist hopes that mineral chemicals and herbs are complex and not totally fungible.
There was an old Microprose game called Darklands that had 3 different formulas for each alchemical effect; the more powerful formulas were rarer to find and used more rare/expensive components.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you have a distance of influence over which a POI can be considered under Settlement control if a company joins or claims it for that settlement? A sort of radius around the settlement proportional in proximity to it's size/DI or some suitable measure so there's scope but leashed all the same?Avena,
this is referenced at several points in the past as the "sphere of influence"....but there has never been a clear definition or formula divulged as to how it grows, shrinks, or moves with the perimeter of the claimed PoIs. In theory as more and more PoIs are sworn to a major settlement the "reach" of that settlement grows, but that settlement should also be expected to provide support, trade, and defense to each of its many PoIs, and there will be a practical limit to how much one settlement can do. when that point is reached, settlements will choose to unite and form a Kingdom. Then the calculus will probably change a little. Kingdoms should have a longer and stronger reach than a single settlement, but it too must provide support and defense to its outlying settlements, as the settlements must to PoIs.
Ah yes, thanks you're bang on.
I like
My suggestion would be to allow anyone to swear to any kingdom they like, but then impose penalties based on how 'disconnected' they are from the kingdom.
Much better than what I was angling at.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Minerals and Herbs are components for making chemicals. They are essentially interchangeable, but stocks like Flammable and Acidic are more common on minerals. (The main reasons for adding minerals in the first place was to make sure certain stocks weren't under represented because they didn't make sense on many herbs.)
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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And when Stephen means interchangeable, you can find herbs and chemicals that do the same things, but Brimstone is different from Cinnabar which is different from Quicksilver for the most part.
The maps will most likely be changing and updating due to tech concerns, balance, etc, up until day 1 of the Land Rush. These changes will be minor, such as switching around a monster and a badlands hex, as opposed to widescale terrain changes. So the big map that went up Friday will still be 99% correct, and the once we launch the land rush with will be 100% correct.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Minerals and Herbs are components for making chemicals. They are essentially interchangeable, but stocks like Flammable and Acidic are more common on minerals. (The main reasons for adding minerals in the first place was to make sure certain stocks weren't under represented because they didn't make sense on many herbs.)
It sounds like the system is more complicated than I had assumed; I'm concluding now that "chemicals" have some number of unique members, each of which can be refined (possibly with different yields) from a number of different herbs and minerals.
Acid (a chemical), for example, might be refined from a noxious plant or from either of two minerals, with all acid being interchangeable. If each mineral or herb can be processed into one of several chemicals, then the economic emergence is sufficiently interesting.
Okay I think I’ve got all the important bits done for this excel doc.
Gonna share it here ==>> PFO Land Rush DataI think I can sleep now.
OMG, now I'm trying to figure out how to get as much of this information as possible up on PathfinderWiki in a format that will be usable to folks. As if I didn't have enough other stuff on my plate!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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OMG, now I'm trying to figure out how to get as much of this information as possible up on PathfinderWiki in a format that will be usable to folks. As if I didn't have enough other stuff on my plate!Okay I think I’ve got all the important bits done for this excel doc.
Gonna share it here ==>> PFO Land Rush DataI think I can sleep now.
All of that info is available from the map...
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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And to give people some further information, here's what the hexes produce. Note Bulk materials are used in making settlement structures, not crafting items, and represent large quantities of goods. They will be difficult to transport long distances due to encumbrance, so you want them made nearby or guarded heavily. Also essences are components used in making magic items. There are three progressions of essences, each of which is found in two terrain types (Woodlands and Swamps, Croplands and Water, Mountains and Highlands).
Croplands: All the Bulk Food you will ever need, some Bulk Trade Goods, lots of herbs, the best at cloth, essences,
Woodlands: The best at Bulk Wood, some Bulk Food (from hunting wild game), very little Bulk Ore, the best at wood, lots of herbs, leather, essences
Highlands: The best at Bulk Stone, moderate Bulk Iron, a little Bulk Food and Bulk Trade goods, mineral chemicals (brimstone and such), some herbs, coal/copper/gold, gems
Mountains: The best at Bulk Iron, lots of BulkStone, very little Bulk Trade Goods and Bulk Food, essences, some mineral chemicals, a few herbs, iron/silver/platinum, gems
Swamplands: Moderate amounts of Bulk Food, Iron, Wood, and Trade Goods, essences, mineral chemicals, herbs, leather
Water: Lots of Bulk Food and Trade Goods, essences, pearls, a few herbs in large quantity
Brokenlands: No bulk materials (POIs cannot be built here), essences, mineral chemicals, gems, lots of metals
Are the 'hilly forest' hexes around the mountain hexes roughly equivalent to 1/2 woodlands and 1/2 highlands?
Is there any specific thing which is currently expected to be restricted to a geographic region (e.g. a metal which is only available in large amounts from the WAA mountain, and is found only in small quantities elsewhere)?
Is cloth intended to be exclusive to farmland? are coal/copper/gold exclusive to highlands and iron/silver/platinum exclusive to mountains, or is the rundown a summary of the top producers and not intended to be exhaustive?
There are groups right now discussing Land Rush sites; is it possible that we could know the relative proportions of each resource in each hex, and in what proportions they are used?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are groups right now discussing Land Rush sites; is it possible that we could know the relative proportions of each resource in each hex, and in what proportions they are used?
Speaking of the 'land rush'... my understanding has been that it is intended for the start of Early Enrollment, which is projected for some time circa 3Q 2014... meanwhile Alpha testing was last estimated to start at the end of April/early May. Is this correct / still on track?
If so, it suggests that, starting soon, there will be some people in the game for at least a couple of months before the land rush takes place. Presumably that will allow data on resource availability, not to mention dozens of other variables (e.g. speed and intensity of escalation cycles), to be gathered... even as these values are likely being tweaked prior to early and then open enrollment.
I'm hoping this is the case, because actual experience of gameplay will provide a far better understanding of the various factors impacting settlement placement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ability to establish settlements isn't supposed to be available until closer to the time of open enrollment.
The Land Rush as I understand it will be for groups who have a good number of people (top 30 represented) and they will be given pre-built starter settlements before the ability to place settlements elsewhere is available.
I honestly like the locations of some of the non Land Rush settlement better then some of the Land Rush ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I put together a list of all the discrepancies between the landgrad.png and fullmap.png maps;
Hex: Landgrab / Fullmap
-18,08: Highlands / Brokenlands
-18,06: Brokenlands / Highlands
-16,-01: Monster Homeland / Badlands
-15,-03: Badlands / Monster Homeland
-10,-07: Empty / Monster
-10,-03: Empty / Pass
-09,-03: Pass / Empty
-07,04: Badlands / Monster Homeland
-05,04: Monster Homeland / Badlands
-05,-07: Empty / Monster
-05,-08: Monster / Badlands
-04,05: Badlands / Monster
-03,-07: Monster / Empty
-02,-08: Empty / Monster
-02,-02: Empty / NPC & Pass
-01,03: Empty / Pass
-01,00: Pass / NPC & Pass
00,07: Monster Homeland / Badlands
01,07: Badlands / Monster Homeland
01,02: Forest / Highlands
01,01: Forest / Highlands
01,18: Badlands / Monster
02,18: Monster / Badlands
05,-07: Empty / Settlement
05,-08: Monster / Empty
Most of these appear to be cases where contents were moved from one hex to another nearby. The -10,-07 seems very likely an error on the landgrab map because it would otherwise be the only 'Brokenlands' hex with no built in monster escalation activity in it. Similarly, various missing NPC and Pass markers seem likely to be incorrect on the landgrab map.
Also, most of the land rush settlement hexes (A thru AD) are shown as empty 'wilderness' hexes on the fullmap. Only L is shown as a settlement hex. The fullmap also doesn't differentiate between mountain hexes and forested mountain hexes. Finally, the 'campfire' symbol on some fullmap hexes is the same as an empty wilderness hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remember folks: maps are not final. Don't get too caught up in the specifics just yet. ;)
I'd guess the devs can get a lot of useful data on how players interact with the map in EE and that could lead to rearrangement of some hexes even if the general geographical pattern remains constant.
This seems one of the strengths of the devs using a hex system to be flexible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So do we have a clear understanding of how the landrush will work?
I don't think I do. Will a company or consortium of companies claiming a landrush settlement simply spawn there rather than in a noob town or will they have to get there cross-country to claim what they have claimed?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And to give people some further information, here's what the hexes produce. Note Bulk materials are used in making settlement structures, not crafting items, and represent large quantities of goods. They will be difficult to transport long distances due to encumbrance, so you want them made nearby or guarded heavily(...)
So... Is my understanding correct that
1) every (active and growing) settlement will need a steady supply of bulk goods from all terrains
2) most settlements will have good access to goods from 1-2 terrains only
3) getting the rest from across the map will be cumbersome/slow/risky
4) elevation generally follow terrain, forcing much of the bulk transport trough the choke points
trade and logistics seems to be important. That's good news for traders. And bandits. And guards. And...
The only remaining question is whether a single water hex in the mountains can supply a quarter of the map with seafood (ie if a single hex of each type is enough to run a kingdom).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So do we have a clear understanding of how the landrush will work?
I don't think I do. Will a company or consortium of companies claiming a landrush settlement simply spawn there rather than in a noob town or will they have to get there cross-country to claim what they have claimed?
I don't think I've a clear understanding either. Probably a good question for the questions thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remember folks: maps are not final. Don't get too caught up in the specifics just yet. ;)
I got the impression that Lee was telling us that the Land Rush map is 100% correct, and that the larger map is the one that's likely to change.
Lee, can you verify whether you expect there to be changes in the Land Rush Map between now and the Land Rush?
So do we have a clear understanding of how the landrush will work?
The last blog mentioned an upcoming post that would go into the details of the Land Rush. I've been anxiously awaiting that :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious if the Landrush will be based on a Top 30 most votes; All votes must be Goblin Squad members; Only one settlement per company; Will the land rush run up to just before player settlements are put in, etc?
How will these lots of land be handled?
Can they be transferred (sold) after the land rush is closed?
How long can they remain vacant if the company that earned one, builds nothing on it?
Can vacant lots be seized by another, with or without conflict?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious if the Landrush will be based on a Top 30 most votes; All votes must be Goblin Squad members; Only one settlement per company; Will the land rush run up to just before player settlements are put in, etc?
How will these lots of land be handled?
Can they be transferred (sold) after the land rush is closed?
How long can they remain vacant if the company that earned one, builds nothing on it?
Can vacant lots be seized by another, with or without conflict?
Indeed. One of our open questions was what if a Land Rush winner is no longer a company by the time settlements are introduced!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I got the impression that Lee was telling us that the Land Rush map is 100% correct, and that the larger map is the one that's likely to change.
To quote Lee's post above;
The maps will most likely be changing and updating due to tech concerns, balance, etc, up until day 1 of the Land Rush. These changes will be minor, such as switching around a monster and a badlands hex, as opposed to widescale terrain changes. So the big map that went up Friday will still be 99% correct, and the once we launch the land rush with will be 100% correct.
I read this to say that both maps will change between now and the land rush. However, the changes should be minor... to the point that the large map will likely still be about 99% the same (presumably not counting the large swath that hadn't been filled out yet). The '100% correct map' is some future version which doesn't exist yet, but will by the time the land rush begins.
I especially like that there will be swamps. They seem like a nice "jack-of-all-trades" terrain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thread resurrection! Ala-kazaam!
Bulk transport seems pretty important at this early stage of the game. I would not have thought so, but there are few players in right now, and the economy will lag if goods are not moving around the map. I have traveled around the map a good bit and have found most every resource in abundant supply, but they are localized (as they were meant to be). That means gathering is easy, but transportation is hard, and VERY slow and tedious.
Which brings me to the question; not including the bulk goods for settlement construction and maintenance, what are the expectations for getting draft animals, carts and wagons, or even hand carts in the game? Is there any schedule for things like this in the next few months? I understand EE has only been up for a week, and my character(s) are progressing nicely. Just checking on this feature, and all that will go with it (guards and escorts, wagon construction, animal handling, caravan routes, etc...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having spent the few hours I can play week days for the last 2 days getting one guys haul from a few hours mining just 10 hexes out of the 22 to get it all back to our settlement, I second the need for bulk transport, soon.
I'm pretty sure the Bulk referred to in this thread is to the type of materials that will be used to build new towns with, and is not in the game yet.
As the "real" production isn't up yet, the need for transports will increase exponentially and I don't see wagons being an option in the near future.
So it is only to use the legs guys!
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those with a DT account, that third character can easily be made a pack person with 1000 experience (which will be the only experience they will get in a practical sense). They would be perfect members of a portage company (which means there will be a need for guard companies).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well in the DT instructions it is specifically mentioned that you cannot switch from those 2 characters right now without breaking DT FOREVER. So no not really.
You cannot change Training, but you can absolutely make a third Character, which will start with 1,00 XP, and play it without impacting your Destiny Twin status.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To expand on Nihimon's post, people are pretty panicked about the danger of losing DT, but the third character can be perfectly useable. You can do anything you want with it, as long as you don't turn on training for it. They are perfectly handy for humping excess goods around. And if it isn't in a good spot, delete it and make a new one tomorrow.....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, it sounds as if the DT-specific instructions are not warning against an absolute permanent loss of the Twin, but represent the best way to keep customer service (Bonny and Ryan), from "oh, I broke my account, fix it nao, kthxbye" calls and emails.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those DT-instructions have scared me so bad, that I dare not hover my cursor too long above the character selection screen, in fear of actually pushing the delete or Set training button. :O I know there is supposed to be a confirmation window, but still. :)
Good to know I can actually make a third character, thanks for the heads up, guys. I wonder if we will be able to keep logging in non-training characters in the future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, it sounds as if the DT-specific instructions are not warning against an absolute permanent loss of the Twin, but represent the best way to keep customer service (Bonny and Ryan), from "oh, I broke my account, fix it nao, kthxbye" calls and emails.
It's also possible that is wishful thinking on our part. No-one from Goblin works has really spoken clearly on the subject.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, it sounds as if the DT-specific instructions are not warning against an absolute permanent loss of the Twin, but represent the best way to keep customer service (Bonny and Ryan), from "oh, I broke my account, fix it nao, kthxbye" calls and emails.It's also possible that is wishful thinking on our part. No-one from Goblin works has really spoken clearly on the subject.
I don't think it's wishful thinking.
You can end the Destiny's Twin perk by the choices you make about character training and deleting characters. Please understand that while we will do our best to help our customers if mistakes are made the purpose of this section of this blog is to reduce the number of such requests.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was actually fully aware of those exact words. They are customer service null speak which equates to "we make no promises" and already lays the responsibility at the user's feet, with the words if mistakes are made. I'm not saying they won't do their best. I'm saying they have never come out and said that if you break your DT you'll get it back. Until it has been tested, frequently enough to test the patience of the team, I would never advise anyone that their DT is safe.