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Let's say some rich wanker wants that horse as a status symbol or something, and pays me to get it. Or something else that would make me want that specific horse and not any other horse. Assuming I can get the Paladin into a position where the mount has been summoned but s/he isn't on it, and I mount it, now what? Does the horse automatically refuse to obey orders from me? Any way I could force it into submission if this is the case? Can the Paladin desummon it and leave me in thin air? Can I command it like any other horse? Can the Paladin locate the horse through magic if I escape with it? Is there a way to prevent the Paladin just summoning the horse back?
What if I kill the Paladin to prevent those last two issues? Does the horse disappear? Does it take orders?
So, there is no hard rule on what happens to the horse if I dhank the pally?
I'd say from the moment you tried to steal it, you'd be in combat with it and it would be trying to kill or incapacitate you. Even if you got on it's back there would be ride check after ride check of a high difficulty all the while it would be raising a storm of neighs and stuff making to clear to anyone that can hear that your trying to steal it.
Charm monster?
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What happens if I steal a Paladin's bonded horse?
you piss off a horse, a paladin, and a god..generally in that order. :)
and I mount it, now what? Does the horse automatically refuse to obey orders from me?
Due to the fact that the horse is not loyal to you it will act like a wild animal (with INT 6!). The details are up to the GM.
Any way I could force it into submission if this is the case?
The horse has INT6 so you can intimidate or persuade it but that should be very hard due to the unnatural loyality to the paladin. You can use charm or dominate spells.
Can the Paladin desummon it and leave me in thin air?
No it cannot be desummoned by RAW.
Can I command it like any other horse?
No see my first answer.
Can the Paladin locate the horse through magic if I escape with it?
Sure there are some spells that allow this.
Is there a way to prevent the Paladin just summoning the horse back?
There are some spells that prevent summoning or teleportation. This kind of spells should work here too.
What if I kill the Paladin to prevent those last two issues? Does the horse disappear? Does it take orders?
RAW cannot help but the common opinion on the message boards is that it changes to an normal animal some hours or days after his master died.
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The paladin will call it back unless you keep it constantly under the effect of a dimensional anchor spell.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin's level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
It is not a summoning spell. More like a teleporting spell ability to call a creature even from another plane (there is no range limit or clause that say that it don't work through the planes).
Then the paladin will find a way to speak with the horse and discover what happened.
So you will get a unhappy costumer as he will lose his horse, a pissed off horse and a irritated paladin.
Not a good situation.
Note that there is no summoning or "de-summoning" of a paladin's mount in the Pathfinder RPG. That was a D&D concept that was not brought over to Pathfinder. The mount is always present, and as Diego has already mentioned, the paladin has the ability to teleport it to his location a number of times per day. No summoning actually ever takes place.
So, basically the Paladin has to die at a time when the horse is currently summoned without the horse getting killed, and the horse is going to fight me every step of the way? I'm getting the feeling this is a distinctly stupid and juvenile form of petty revenge mongering and comparing the size of ...financial power bases that will lead to nothing positive in the end. If anything, that makes the idea of this scenario kind of awesome. I would totally be a sarcastically honest NE mercenary cynic who's somewhat trollish and would point that out how utterly stupid and, in the scheme of things, useless this plot is, but still take the money and do it with gusto.
If I can incapacitate the horse (poison, maybe), can I shove it into a bag of holding so I don't have to deal with trying to ride an animal that just isn't going to cooperate? The customer certainly can't handle the beast, but that's his problem, not mine. Told him it was a dumbass idea.
What happens if I steal a Paladin's bonded horse?
you piss off a horse, a paladin, and a god..generally in that order. :)
Feh. If Iomedae wants to get all angsty about it, she can come and express her displeasure to my face.
So, basically the Paladin has to die at a time when the horse is currently summoned without the horse getting killed, and the horse is going to fight me every step of the way? I'm getting the feeling this is a distinctly stupid and juvenile form of petty revenge mongering and comparing the size of ...financial power bases that will lead to nothing positive in the end.
Were you assuming that the answer to "Will the supernaturally intelligent and strong horse who serves as a Paladin's boon from the gods (the animal equivalent of the pure Holy Power that he can infuse a weapon with if he is weapon bonded) who is explicitly called out as UNUSUALLY LOYAL (even for an Animal Companion who are pretty much devoted to their master unto death) obey me instantly if I try to horse-jack it?" would be yes?
If I can incapacitate the horse (poison, maybe), can I shove it into a bag of holding so I don't have to deal with trying to ride an animal that just isn't going to cooperate? The customer certainly can't handle the beast, but that's his problem, not mine. Told him it was a dumbass idea.
He can certainly handle the beast. Because it will be dead. It still has to breathe.
So, basically the Paladin has to die at a time when the horse is currently summoned without the horse getting killed, and the horse is going to fight me every step of the way? I'm getting the feeling this is a distinctly stupid and juvenile form of petty revenge mongering and comparing the size of ...financial power bases that will lead to nothing positive in the end.Were you assuming that the answer to "Will the supernaturally intelligent and strong horse who serves as a Paladin's boon from the gods (the animal equivalent of the pure Holy Power that he can infuse a weapon with if he is weapon bonded) who is explicitly called out as UNUSUALLY LOYAL (even for an Animal Companion who are pretty much devoted to their master unto death) obey me instantly if I try to horse-jack it?" would be yes?
Given the lack of RAW, I was torn on the issue. Granted, the stupider and more dangerous this scheme gets, the more I want to do it, precisely because it's so stupid and dangerous. I just need to figure out something that's dumb enough to work.
If I can incapacitate the horse (poison, maybe), can I shove it into a bag of holding so I don't have to deal with trying to ride an animal that just isn't going to cooperate? The customer certainly can't handle the beast, but that's his problem, not mine. Told him it was a dumbass idea.He can certainly handle the beast. Because it will be dead. It still has to breathe.
Okay, different plan. What if I ambush the Paladin, steal his armor, and mimic his appearance with magic? Could I make the horse fall for the ruse?
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Best bet?
Apple of Eternal Sleep, a cart, and some sneaky(and strong) people to haul it.
Depends on whether the customer specifies an ambulatory horse or not.
Actually, if he words things poorly enough, a dead horse may fit the letter of the request.
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I'm getting the feeling you're not really interested in rules.
I was interested in rules at first, but now that I see that the rules governing my schemes don't give much insight into what will happen (just like last time) I have to improvise.
If the paladin dies, the horse (or whatever the paladin's bonded mount was) will lose all the abilities that depend on the paladin's level. So killing the paladin will only grant you an ordinary mount of that kind (as there's no longer a paladin with levels that the mount is bonded to).
Your best bet is probably to dominate the paladin, tell the paladin to let his mount know it should do everything you say, then keep the paladin locked up and unconscious (thus not allowing him the chance to bring the mount to his side) until the task is done.
Well, the point is to be able to say "HAH! I have X's horse! Look who's powerful now!" The ability to actually do anything is unimportant, what matters is that it was the steed of the Paladin at one point. The horse losing it's abilities wouldn't effect that.
Wait, that means I can just find a horse that looks like the Paladin's horse (does disguise magic work on animals?), kill both the Paladin and his horse, destroy the bodies, and give the horse I found to the customer. I mean, I'm already looking at murdering a Paladin over a few gold pieces in exchange for helping some rich guy cover up his personal inadequacies. A bit of fraud is the least ethically questionable of my considered courses of action here.
Also, this should probably get moved to Advice now that the original rules question got answered.
A paladin can't desummon his steed, but he can call it to his side once per day, effectively causing it to disappear out from under you. If you take his horse and ride to the next town over, it might literally be gone the next time you look.
As others have stated, the rules aren't exactly clear about what happens to the mount if he dies; I personally think that the paladin's god would try to arrange for the horse to come into contact with a new paladin if the previous one is six feet under and not coming back. Heck, maybe it was all part of a grand cosmic scheme to make the thief into a Lawful Good paladin. (Sort of like Seelah's backstory.)
Somewhat off-topic but, I am so glad I don't have someone like you at my table (no offense), my group has a hard enough time getting anything done without someone looking for an excuse to start pvp amongst themselves.
I never start this kind of shenanigan outside of solo adventures anymore, and I haven't RPed at a table in forever. If I were at your table, I would not bring an evil character at all, much less try to hatch plots I know full well are pointless and overly dangerous with little reward at the end other than being the fantasy equivalent of an internet troll.
I should also probably think of alternative schemes in case the horse contract doesn't come through. Without the contract the horse jacking is too boring, because all the fun is in transporting it.
You would need dominate animal in order to retrain its tricks if it has the following:
Throw Rider
Exclusive
Serve
This combination makes it automatically throw anyone other than the person who taught it the trick and it will not take orders from anyone else not even with a charm animal spell.
My thoughts on this:
Stealing a creature with a 6+ intelligence is "kidnapping" of some sort. We're not talking a dumb animal here.
Next, there is a technical term for keeping an intelligent creature in bondage, I'd call it "slavery," as would most Paladins. This might qualify you as "Evil," which will make you susceptible to the most effective parts of a Paladin's repertoire of buttkicking.
You can't keep it for more than 24 hours, because once per day (more for higher level Paladins) the Paladin can summon it to her side. I don't care, where or how you've got it locked up, the Paladin can just summon it.
Unless the paladin was dead. If the Paladin was alive and even if you keep it in a cage warded with the Teleport Trap spell, he could simply abandon it as a companion and find a new one. Gives me a neat idea for an adventure that involves a rare creature, like a unicorn or something that an NPC paladin places a lot of value on retrieving.
A magic circle against good cast upon a specially-prepared diagram and augmented with dimensional anchor will trap a called creature (which is what a paladin's mount effectively is) within its confines for 24 hours per caster level.
A magic circle against good cast upon a specially-prepared diagram and augmented with dimensional anchor will trap a called creature (which is what a paladin's mount effectively is) within its confines for 24 hours per caster level.
Hmmm... While it does say the Paladin "magically call"s the mount to his side, it makes no indication if this is the calling subschool or teleportation subschool. I'd probably go with calling and not jip the paladin out of being able to summon his mount if he was in another plane. Only problem with this is that the Paladin would have to summon his mount while in the circle. Otherwise you could use Ice Crystal Teleport on the mount to teleport it into the circle. This is the only way I know of to teleport unwilling creatures.
A magic circle against good cast upon a specially-prepared diagram and augmented with dimensional anchor will trap a called creature (which is what a paladin's mount effectively is) within its confines for 24 hours per caster level.A paladin's mount is NOT a called creature. It's just an animal. An unusually strong, smart, and loyal animal to be sure, but its just an animal (at least until 11th level).
I thought that at first too, but it does say that the Paladin "magically calls" the mount to his side. If it is not a called creature then he wouldn't be able to use this ability if the mount was on another plane.
Zahir's got it RAW-wise. The call and summon fluff in divine bond could easily be just holdovers from the 3.5 version, where the mount was a magical beast summoned from the celestial realms for a finite amount of time per day.
My thoughts on this:
Stealing a creature with a 6+ intelligence is "kidnapping" of some sort. We're not talking a dumb animal here.
Next, there is a technical term for keeping an intelligent creature in bondage, I'd call it "slavery," as would most Paladins. This might qualify you as "Evil," which will make you susceptible to the most effective parts of a Paladin's repertoire of buttkicking.
You can't keep it for more than 24 hours, because once per day (more for higher level Paladins) the Paladin can summon it to her side. I don't care, where or how you've got it locked up, the Paladin can just summon it.
Also don't forget the saves ont he horse in question is the same as the Paladin's.
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A horse with an int of 6 can take ranks in climb. I always do this because I think horses climbing vertical cliffs and overhangs are funny to think about.
Charm animal; hobble and drug; get close to deliver; dedrug; charm animal; unhobble; deliver to client; leave the country.
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Well if you steal a paladin's horse, as someone pointed out up thread, you will end up with an angry war horse, an irritated paladin.......oh paladins often come with adventuring buddies.....an irate adventuring party.......Well all i have to say is good luck....you will need it.
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My advice: persuade the Paladin to sell you the horse (for less than what you're getting paid for it obviously). This brings up a whole new set of challenges, of course, but handily solves all the previous ones.
Your client now legitimately owns a horse that was once that paladin's bonded mount, without fear of it being summoned away because the paladin has already taken a new mount. And you can live without fear of smiting or other divine retribution, because you have done nothing evil, you've simply negotiated a business deal.
As for how to convince the paladin in the first place? I'd say give him a lead on a more exotic steed, such as a mammoth or a hippogriff. Maybe those tricks you were going to use to steal his mount could instead be used to help him subdue a replacement?
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♫ sommmmmmmmmmmmeone is going to gettttttt smiteddddddddddd ♪
The closest I can think of to any official source talking about what happens to a dead paladin's mount is in Pathfinder #22, where the familiar of a long dead wizard is still generally loitering around where he died, several orders of magnitude older than his lifespan would normally allow, still unusually intelligent, and in possession of some innate magical abilities, and still totally loyal to his master. If the PCs resolve things properly with regards to his dead master, and any of them have a familiar/animal companion type class feature and inclined to get a new one, he's willing to switch over to them.
So, it would seem to me that with a paladin's mount, even if you get around the issue of being summoned out from under you by killing the paladin and preventing their resurrection, you would still have a mount with all the intelligence, HD, feats, etc. normally possessed, who would still be 100% loyal to their previously bound paladin (with whom there is a pretty darn deep and innate connection you absolutely couldn't circumvent through trickery). While this mount might willingly serve someone else after a period of mourning, it's never going to forget what happened to that original paladin, and probably seek vengeance against anyone responsible in any way.
I could totally see a scenario with a paladin's mount being completely broken through some combination of magic, torture, and serious evil corruption stuff as not generally covered by the rules to create some unique evil monster in a Thron/Prince in Chains sort of way, but the time frame and basic morality issues involved wouldn't really make this a practical outcome for something PC driven.
♫ sommmmmmmmmmmmeone is going to gettttttt smiteddddddddddd ♪
I believe the correct term is "Smote"
♫ sommmmmmmmmmmmeone is going to gettttttt smoteddddddddddd ♪
♫ sommmmmmmmmmmmeone is going to gettttttt smiteddddddddddd ♪
That made me laugh so hard I almost choked on my breakfast. Good show, Sir or Madam.
Next, there is a technical term for keeping an intelligent creature in bondage, I'd call it "slavery," as would most Paladins. This might qualify you as "Evil," which will make you susceptible to the most effective parts of a Paladin's repertoire of buttkicking.
I fall into the "Slavery is always an Evil act to propagate" camp, so I would agree. Then again, I'm plotting the murder of an upstanding servant of good over a status symbol. I think the "Am I Evil" ship sailed a while ago.
With that said, paladins are notoriously hard to kill, and I would posit that those premeditating to kill a paladin and enslave her bonded mount will most likely be Evil [with a capital E]. Paladins are even harder to kill if you're evil.
Good point. I'm going to have to weight the odds somehow.
Well if you steal a paladin's horse, as someone pointed out up thread, you will end up with an angry war horse, an irritated paladin.......oh paladins often come with adventuring buddies.....an irate adventuring party.......Well all i have to say is good luck....you will need it.
That in and of itself could make an awesome adventure.
*ponder*
Best bet?:
- Defeat the paladin, but keep him alive.
- Threaten the Paladin's life unless the mount agrees to obey you (and if you want to be nice, your buyer).
- Seal that agreement with a geas spell.
- Put the mount in Dimensional Shackles (or otherwise blocked from teleportation).
- Get away from the Paladin post-haste.
- Deliver the goods.