Why is Synthesis Summoner banned? Yet Druid n' Cleric n'...

[LazarX]

MattR1986 wrote:

I'm inclined to agree with you marshmellow (besides the puppy part) about point-buy for a number of reasons. Point buy dramatically changed the way D&D has been played and has lead to more focus on optimization over focusing on RP (stfu on Stormwind) than ever before.

It's not so much point buy by itself that changed things. After all, there were many 1st and 2nd Edition home gaming groups had a form of point buy system. What really was the game changer, was the combination of point buy and the explosion of player building options beyond fighter, cleric, thief, and magic-user, and the unfettered ability to multi-class and "dip".

That genie has been let out of the bottle and there's no stuffing it back in without going to some retro-clone homebrew.

I also however think, that the messageboard culture is fond of inflating the problem far beyond it's actual measure.

[Michael Sayre]

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

As an only occasional GM at PFS events, summoners in general can be a headache.

As far as I can remember, every single summoner that I really looked at had an eidolon build that did not follow the rules. Most more powerful (but at least one significantly less powerful) than what the rules actually allowed. A couple were so minor that I didn't really do anything except mention to the player that they needed to fix it before the next game. Some were majorly way too powerful.

Since the synthesis is significantly more complex, I am glad they are not allowed at PFS. At a home game, where I can take time and go over it without cutting into the group game time and just ask "what did you add?" at level advancements it would be fine.

So much this. I also have yet to see a player get an Eidolon built completely right on the first go, let alone a Synthesist. The class and its archetypes require a bit more supervision and review than is totally practical from an organized play perspective.

The Synthesist in particular, with his pages of FAQ and errata, just eats up too much time at a table.
Comparative power level is really a very secondary concern, particularly since at many levels of play the apparent advantages of teh Synthesist as a dpr monster are due to player miscalculation. They're big and beastly, but there's lots of big and beastly stuff in the game, and most of those don't require college-level research and organizational skills to put together and verify.

[David Bowles]

This is why I've given up comparing anything to the druid. Note that the druid can summon just as many creatures as the master summoner AND have their animal companion still be full-powered. A druid can literally fill a combat board. Still a legal class.

Druids break tables without even trying hard, since the CR systems doesn't take into account druids getting two PCs for one table seat.

[Doombunny]

Basically, this.

[Alexandros Satorum]

Ssalarn wrote:

If a standard Summoner's Eidolon gets killed or banished, it doesn't leave its master standing naked surrounded by enemies who were powerful enough to drop one of the most potent war-beasts in the game. The Synthesist on the other hand, gets annihilated, doubly so since he's probably been pumping his own hp into the Eidolon to try and stay in the game.

If the enemies have the power to crush the standard summoner´s eidolon, it is very likely that they also have the power to kill the summoner in the first place much quicker.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

OgreBattle wrote:

So why is that Summoner Archtype banned from pathfinder society games? It doesn't seem any stronger than a regular summoner. Sure turning into a big magical monster is neat, but Clerics and Druids (and Wizards sometimes) can pull that off too.

I'd also like to hear comparisons between a Synthesis Summoner vs a shapeshiftin' Druid, is the SynSummoner really that much stronger to warrant banning?

Let's see..

You could have a 7/7/7 physical stat range..and STILL wind up the most powerful physical combatant in the party AND have hideously high spell DCs/skills.

You had Synthesists who never came out of their 'shell' and would use all manners of natural attacks to maul the enemy (like 3 natural attacks @ 1st level)

And unlike the druid.. they didn't have to restrict themselves to an animal shape.

[Castarr4]

I have a different perspective than you, MM. I'd like to share it, if you don't mind.

Pathfinder has balance problems between the classes. The balance problems are not because of the point-buy system by itself, but rather with the underlying framework as a whole.

A wizard with nothing but Int is pretty much just as effective as a wizard with just as much Int but good other scores. Sure, those other stats are cool to have, but you really only need Int.

A monk, on the other hand, is known for requiring lots of stats.

Rolling for stats is the worst option if you want to be able to fit a character concept. If I roll 18 10 10 10 10 10, I'm going to feel forced into playing a wizard. If I roll 16 14 14 14 14 14, I'll want to play a monk to take advantage of as many of the good modifiers as I can.

Point-buy gives you flexibility to play the concept you want. I can choose between one really high stat or multiple semi-high stats.

The problem is that some classes (monk is the primary example) need a higher point-buy to be on the same playing field. You addressed that somewhat in your idea, but I think it was for the wrong reason.

So the problem isn't with the point-buy system. It's that some classes are simply more powerful when given the same amount of points. That's a problem with the classes, not the point-buy system.

[David Bowles]

"And unlike the druid.. they didn't have to "restrict" themselves to an animal shape."

Fixed that for you. Yeah, I'm bitter about druids.

[LazarX]

Alexandros Satorum wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

If a standard Summoner's Eidolon gets killed or banished, it doesn't leave its master standing naked surrounded by enemies who were powerful enough to drop one of the most potent war-beasts in the game. The Synthesist on the other hand, gets annihilated, doubly so since he's probably been pumping his own hp into the Eidolon to try and stay in the game.

If the enemies have the power to crush the standard summoner´s eidolon, it is very likely that they also have the power to kill the summoner in the first place much quicker.

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

[WalterGM]

OgreBattle wrote:

So why is that Summoner Archtype banned from pathfinder society games? It doesn't seem any stronger than a regular summoner. Sure turning into a big magical monster is neat, but Clerics and Druids (and Wizards sometimes) can pull that off too.

Here is your answer, from Mike Brock.

"It does not fit the theme of Golarion and is unbalancing in the campaign. This has been discussed ad nauseum and a search can find numerous, lengthy debate on the topic if you want to read the arguments on both sides of the debate. We aren't going to start another lengthy debate on this topic."

Here is the blog post that banned syntheists, and other archetypes, and the 15 page discussion that followed. The official statement in the blog regarding their removal is

"As for other changes to Pathfinder Society play, over the past 6 months, I have taken a keen interest in various things that don’t fit Golarion thematically or that cause confusion with power imbalance in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign. I have talked with players that frequent the messageboards, as well players at the various conventions I have attended. I have discussed the topics below with Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants, as well as with members of Paizo’s design and development teams. While some of these might work well in a home game (and I have some players that use them in my home game), they simply are not a good fit for organized play."

As well as

"All I can do is ask you to have faith in the decision making process, and that any decisions we made were not done so lightly, but were done with the long term health of the campaign in mind. We all understand how this affects some people's characters. In truth, even VCs has some characters that were affected and now have to rebuild. All of These decisions were far from arbitrary or authoritarian."

As you can see, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum several times before. There has been no change on the ruling regarding synthesists. There will likely never be a change.

If you want to have a discussion about class balance issues, and how druid/summoner/whatever is OP, that's a discussion that's better served in other boards as it relates to general system balance issues—nothing PFS specific. I'd ask that you take such a discussion there, and read the threads I linked above before dredging up this topic once more.

[Lady Nocturne]

I wonder why... muhahaha.
BTW I retired level 12 right under the wire. : P

[David Bowles]

Those discussions get ignored elsewhere, but I was mostly playing devil's advocate. I STILL can't see banning the master summoner with the more-powerful druid still in the game. But I never planned on playing a master summoner, it's just the logic of the whole thing.

[DrDeth]

David Bowles wrote:

This is why I've given up comparing anything to the druid. Note that the druid can summon just as many creatures as the master summoner AND have their animal companion still be full-powered. A druid can literally fill a combat board. Still a legal class.

Except that a eidolon can eat a Companion for breakfast without even needing a toothpick afterwards. Esp if the math is wrong- which it almost always is.

And except that for a Druid, summoning is a Full Round Action spell, not a Spell Like ability taking a mere standard action, which doesn't even cost a spell slot.

And, a Companion is still just a animal, with 'tricks'. If you enforce those, the druid slows down and gets limited.

[DrDeth]

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

[BigNorseWolf]

DrDeth wrote:

And, a Companion is still just a animal, with 'tricks'. If you enforce those, the druid slows down and gets limited.

With a pretty minimal investment you can handle the animal well enough that you may as well just give it to the Player. The tricks are not an effective limiting factor.

[LazarX]

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

It's actually fairly easy to tell. The summoner will most likely be dressed in light armor, of fair to middling quality, he'll be holding back and perhaps casting some battlefield control spells. And if nothing else, that glowing symbol on his head that matches the one on the eidolon is the dead giveway.

The summoner will be a high priority target anyway because he'll be doing some wizardry type stuff. And if he's the kind of idiot that puts himself in front line combat, he'll have done so at the price of weakening his eidlon, or he'll be going down soon anyway.

Maybe the bulk of your foes ARE stupid. We don't seem to have much of that luxury in PFS.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

The matching glowing runes identify summoner AND Eidolon when they are both out and about.

[BigNorseWolf]

Rune on unicorn of deaths forhead

Same rune on summoners head.

Hmmmmmm...

[David Bowles]

That's why my summoner plans to spend a lot of time invisible.

"Except that a eidolon can eat a Companion for breakfast without even needing a toothpick afterwards."

Except that I've seen animal companions that an eidolon couldn't even hit.

[BigNorseWolf]

This is the difference:

While you CAN build a druid to break the game, you almost can't NOT break it with a synthesis t.

[Jeff Merola]

Thomas Graham wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

The matching glowing runes identify summoner AND Eidolon when they are both out and about.

You mean the runes that can be covered up with something as simple as a pair of headbands or some makeup?

[David Bowles]

I'm more talking about the master summoner than the synthesist. I understand quite clearly the problems with the synthesist. I don't understand banning the master summoner but letting the druid run around unnerfed, since the druid was always more powerful than the master summoner anyway.

Also, I've seen more scenarios broken by druids who *weren't even trying to be broken* than any other class who wasn't trying.

[BigNorseWolf]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

The matching glowing runes identify summoner AND Eidolon when they are both out and about.

You mean the runes that can be covered up with something as simple as a pair of headbands or some makeup?

Yes but aren't int and wisdom dumpstats for summoners? :)

[David Bowles]

Not my summoner. 14 WIS 14 INT

[Jeff Merola]

David Bowles wrote:

I'm more talking about the master summoner than the synthesist. I understand quite clearly the problems with the synthesist. I don't understand banning the master summoner but letting the druid run around unnerfed, since the druid was always more powerful than the master summoner anyway.

The Druid is much less likely to slow the game to a crawl by spamming multiple summons every combat. At least, I believe that's the reasoning behind it. It certainly seems true, since even my "summoning" druid very rarely actually casts a summoning spell, since the difference between a standard action summons and a 1 round summons is huge.

[BigNorseWolf]

The druid runs out of spells if they summon spam. The master summoner does it all day.

[LazarX]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

The matching glowing runes identify summoner AND Eidolon when they are both out and about.

You mean the runes that can be covered up with something as simple as a pair of headbands or some makeup?

In my campaigns they're not that simple a deal to cover up. It's amazing how those sigils just shine through. And besides they're eminently visible to spells like Arcane Sight and True Seeing no matter what you do. And even when they're not, the tactics that summoners will generally do in a party will point them out as if nothing else, battlefield controllers that would land them as high priority targets anyway.

[David Bowles]

If no one punches you in the face, a 1 round summons puts as many critters out as a standard action summons. If that's the reasoning, that's a bit weak. It's weak because people claim the druid spell list is lacking. The logical thing to do would be to dump those mediocre spells into summoned critters. If I ever played a druid, that's what I'd do.

[David Bowles]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The druid runs out of spells if they summon spam. The master summoner does it all day.

Actually, at higher levels, I think the druid can do it more than the summoner.

[Jeff Merola]

LazarX wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

LazarX wrote:

This. What's the average party tactic when faced with a summoner and his powerful eidolon? You put down the summoner, and the latter is no longer a problem.

How do they know who the summoner is? Not to mention, many foes have animal Int or even less.

The matching glowing runes identify summoner AND Eidolon when they are both out and about.

You mean the runes that can be covered up with something as simple as a pair of headbands or some makeup?

In my campaigns they're not that simple a deal to cover up. It's amazing how those sigils just shine through. And besides they're eminently visible to spells like Arcane Sight and True Seeing no matter what you do. And even when they're not, the tactics that summoners will generally do in a party will point them out as if nothing else, battlefield controllers that would land them as high priority targets anyway.

Well, in PFS you can't say that it shines through the disguise, as it's explicitly in the rules that mundane means can hide it.

Also, funny thing about True Seeing? It's defeated by mundane means. It can't tell you that there's actually makeup there, or that under the facepaint (or headband) there's a magical rune.

David Bowles wrote:

If no one punches you in the face, a 1 round summons puts as many critters out as a standard action summons. If that's the reasoning, that's a bit weak. It's weak because people claim the druid spell list is lacking. The logical thing to do would be to dump those mediocre spells into summoned critters. If I ever played a druid, that's what I'd do.

...mediocre spells? Generally speaking, I've found that the spells I have are more useful than turning them into summons.

Also, while you get the same number of summons, the Standard action gets them a turn earlier and doesn't prevent tactical movement while using it.

David Bowles wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The druid runs out of spells if they summon spam. The master summoner does it all day.

Actually, at higher levels, I think the druid can do it more than the summoner.

The druid cannot do it more than the Master Summoner and throw out as many buffs/other spells.

Oh, and Summon Monster is a lot stronger than Summon Nature's Ally.

[redward]

David Bowles wrote:

If no one punches you in the face, a 1 round summons puts as many critters out as a standard action summons. If that's the reasoning, that's a bit weak. It's weak because people claim the druid spell list is lacking. The logical thing to do would be to dump those mediocre spells into summoned critters. If I ever played a druid, that's what I'd do.

I often get the feeling that the Druids you run with may be in need of an audit.

[David Bowles]

No, I've looked closely at the magical rainbow animal companion progression table. Combined with the outrageous stat increases most companions get at level 4 or 7, they are as powerful as I feared. I don't think anyone has been cheating or making mistakes; animal companions just mulch PFS that well. Animal companions even get access to feats that eidolons can't take because animal companions have the magical rainbow feat list from which they can take feats.

I haven't looked at summon nature's ally closely. In 3.X , I thought that the nature's ally table was better. They both get elementals, I think.

[Jeff Merola]

David Bowles wrote:

No, I've looked closely at the magical rainbow animal companion progression table. Combined with the outrageous stat increases most companions get at level 4 or 7, they are as powerful as I feared. I don't think anyone has been cheating or making mistakes; animal companions just mulch PFS that well. Animal companions even get access to feats that eidolons can't take because animal companions have the magical rainbow feat list from which they can take feats.

I haven't looked at summon nature's ally closely. In 3.X , I thought that the nature's ally table was better. They both get elementals, I think.

Pretty much all of the good options were removed from the table. While they do share some things (like elementals), Summon Monster has better options for special abilities (until you get to higher levels, Summon Nature's Ally can only be used to summon progressively beefier meatwalls/beatsticks) as well as the fact that it summons Celestial or Fiendish animals instead of just the regular animals.

[David Bowles]

The giants aren't bad. But having non-templated animals is a little gimpy, I'll give you that.

[Jeff Merola]

David Bowles wrote:

The giants aren't bad. But having non-templated animals is a little gimpy, I'll give you that.

Oh, they're not bad, but they don't show up until SNA V (meaning 9th level at the earliest) and they're just another iteration of big smashy guy. At the same level SM can call in Bralani Azatas for some healing, lightning bolts, or wind walls or Babau Demons for See Invisibility and Dispel Magic.

[LazarX]

David Bowles wrote:

No, I've looked closely at the magical rainbow animal companion progression table. Combined with the outrageous stat increases most companions get at level 4 or 7, they are as powerful as I feared. I don't think anyone has been cheating or making mistakes; animal companions just mulch PFS that well. Animal companions even get access to feats that eidolons can't take because animal companions have the magical rainbow feat list from which they can take feats.

I haven't looked at summon nature's ally closely. In 3.X , I thought that the nature's ally table was better. They both get elementals, I think.

I don't know what feats your druid's animal companion might be possibly taking. I'm pretty sure however that my Eidolon will tear it to shreds and I'm not even that "leet" at running a summoner.

My eidolon can duplicate the things that make your Dire Tiger so hideously powerful at offense. And then I start piling things on top of THAT.

[David Bowles]

LazarX wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

No, I've looked closely at the magical rainbow animal companion progression table. Combined with the outrageous stat increases most companions get at level 4 or 7, they are as powerful as I feared. I don't think anyone has been cheating or making mistakes; animal companions just mulch PFS that well. Animal companions even get access to feats that eidolons can't take because animal companions have the magical rainbow feat list from which they can take feats.

I haven't looked at summon nature's ally closely. In 3.X , I thought that the nature's ally table was better. They both get elementals, I think.

I don't know what feats your druid's animal companion might be possibly taking. I'm pretty sure however that my Eidolon will tear it to shreds and I'm not even that "leet" at running a summoner.

My eidolon can duplicate the things that make your Dire Tiger so hideously powerful at offense. And then I start piling things on top of THAT.

At least the eidolon has to PAY to get large and get all the stats. Animals just get it for free.

[LazarX]

David Bowles wrote:

LazarX wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

No, I've looked closely at the magical rainbow animal companion progression table. Combined with the outrageous stat increases most companions get at level 4 or 7, they are as powerful as I feared. I don't think anyone has been cheating or making mistakes; animal companions just mulch PFS that well. Animal companions even get access to feats that eidolons can't take because animal companions have the magical rainbow feat list from which they can take feats.

I haven't looked at summon nature's ally closely. In 3.X , I thought that the nature's ally table was better. They both get elementals, I think.

I don't know what feats your druid's animal companion might be possibly taking. I'm pretty sure however that my Eidolon will tear it to shreds and I'm not even that "leet" at running a summoner.

My eidolon can duplicate the things that make your Dire Tiger so hideously powerful at offense. And then I start piling things on top of THAT.

At least the eidolon has to PAY to get large and get all the stats. Animals just get it for free.

That's not payment in any meaningful terms. It's creature development. just as your animal companion develops as it goes on in level.

It's also a meaningless attempt at digression from the topic at hand, as well as my statement.

[master_marshmallow]

Castarr4 wrote:

I have a different perspective than you, MM. I'd like to share it, if you don't mind.

Pathfinder has balance problems between the classes. The balance problems are not because of the point-buy system by itself, but rather with the underlying framework as a whole.

Agreed so far.

Quote:

A wizard with nothing but Int is pretty much just as effective as a wizard with just as much Int but good other scores. Sure, those other stats are cool to have, but you really only need Int.

A monk, on the other hand, is known for requiring lots of stats.

100% concurrence right now.

Quote:

Rolling for stats is the worst option if you want to be able to fit a character concept. If I roll 18 10 10 10 10 10, I'm going to feel forced into playing a wizard. If I roll 16 14 14 14 14 14, I'll want to play a monk to take advantage of as many of the good modifiers as I can.

A valid point sure, I can agree with this to an extent.

Quote:

Point-buy gives you flexibility to play the concept you want. I can choose between one really high stat or multiple semi-high stats.

The problem is that some classes (monk is the primary example) need a higher point-buy to be on the same playing field. You addressed that somewhat in your idea, but I think it was for the wrong reason.

So the problem isn't with the point-buy system. It's that some classes are simply more powerful when given the same amount of points. That's a problem with the classes, not the point-buy system.

Right, absolutely. The point buy system itself does not fix balance in the game, it just facilitates players who don't like rolling stats because they believe in bad luck or something.

I truly don't believe that we need to bother with creating the semblance of balance at all, and holding everyone to the standard of balance with a system that exacerbates the problem rather than diminish it is not a very effective way to adjudicate a game system that already violates the caveat of 'balance at all costs' for pretty much all other purposes. Why is stat generation considered different from starting gear, starting ages, and the like?

Again, the point buy system is a problem because it doesn't fix anything and in my experience it actually makes things worse by showing off and proving the imbalance between the classes when its implication in the first place is to impose balance on the classes. It's rather ironic.

My proposed fix was a hypothetical, I have said this twice already, it is not intended to be taken as a serious attempt at balancing classes, because I don't want to balance the classes. If I did, I would play something other than PFRPG.

[DrDeth]

LazarX wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

At least the eidolon has to PAY to get large and get all the stats. Animals just get it for free.

It's also a meaningless attempt at digression from the topic at hand, as well as my statement.

Yes, David, can we stop with the hijack about how powerful the druid is? that's not the question here.

[David Bowles]

It's not a hijack when its a direct comparison that helps us understand the topic at hand. I didn't just start in with druid power levels, I referenced the druid as a legal class to demonstrate why I don't think the master summoner is too powerful. It was pointed out that the master summoner is more one-dimensional than the druid. While I disagree with this being sufficient basis to ban it, I at least understand the logic chain.

The topic was about "why are these banned?" I expanded by asking "why is master summoner banned while druid is legal?" I understand why synthesist is banned.

Also, looking back, *the druid class was mentioned in the original post*.

[BigNorseWolf]

You hijack EVERY thread to your hatred of druids. Its like the girlscouts on the questions wall of conspiracy.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

but druids are not more powerful than any other caster, with the exception of their animal companion, and now there's an option that lets anyone get an animal companion, so it's not as big a deal. seriously, I think a nature oracle is more powerful than a druid.

[LazarX]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You hijack EVERY thread to your hatred of druids. Its like the girlscouts on the questions wall of conspiracy.

It's why OUR cookies are made from Real Girl Scouts.

[David Bowles]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You hijack EVERY thread to your hatred of druids. Its like the girlscouts on the questions wall of conspiracy.

Well, they kinda come out of the walls and I can't get away from them.

There are dozens of threads left unhijacked, btw. However, in any discussion of summoners, class balance, or pets I feel the druid is worth bringing up.

[Auke Teeninga]

The whole problem is that a druid with a single level dip into synthesist summoner is even more powerful!

[Chris Mortika]

(this part is off-topic)

Druids and their power are mentioned in the thread title. This really is the right place for a comparison.

--

(this part is on-topic)

The errors that players make with summoners -- and particularly synthesists -- have been mentioned here, but I'm not sure they've gotten the attention they merit.

There have been times where I dreaded seeing a summoner show up at my table, because I knew that there would be some serious errors in the eidolon, and I knew I wasn't going to have time to review the character before the start of the game. And I was doing this as a player whose ####-01 character is a summoner. I know how they're supposed to work. And I knew when one "felt off". And I knew there was nothing I could do about it.

I never had a synthesist sit at my table, but I knew I was going to be well out of my depth. Particularly after the "Eidolons need arms so that the summoners can cast spells." rule, which brought up all sorts of other problems. (Can a summoner inside his eidolon retrieve anything from his pockets or backpack? Probably not without "taking off" the eidolon, but that's table variation and another headache.)

It is an archetype built on a house of FAQ rulings and patches.