| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So why is that Summoner Archtype banned from pathfinder society games? It doesn't seem any stronger than a regular summoner. Sure turning into a big magical monster is neat, but Clerics and Druids (and Wizards sometimes) can pull that off too.
I'd also like to hear comparisons between a Synthesis Summoner vs a shapeshiftin' Druid, is the SynSummoner really that much stronger to warrant banning?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe it has to do with point-buy and character development. Since a synthesist summoner knows they will be receiving all physical stats from their eidolon, they can just dump them all down to 7 to gain an extra 12 points to put into mental stats. They now have 32 points that they only have to distribute among three stats. It would be like giving the barbarian 4 build points to start with 16 Str.
I could be wrong about this though, I don't follow the PFS rulings generally.
EDIT: On how this differs from wizard/druid spells and abilities. Using beast shape as an example, the spell only grants a modifier to the existing stat. A druid who wild shapes into a bear doesn't get the bear's strength, he gets a modifier to his base strength. In contrast, the summoner actually gets the ability score of his eidolon.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's funny to me, cuz' they specifically nerfed the Druid's ability to do this so that it couldn't be all OP like it was in 3.5.
And then they turn around and put it right back in the game with Synthesist Summoner. xD
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Its the point buy, or people complaining about it. There were several people who.specifically tried to break the game with the class, one even wrote a guide about how to break pfs using it, and his exact builds. Every character he had was a synth usually multi class of some type. I suspect that may have weighed heavily on their decision, but thats only speculation.
That being said, I think the vanilla summoner is overall more powerful than the synth.
I had one in the last home campaign I ran with friends and that was confusing enough.
I can't imagine arguing the rules with every random person that comes in to break a PFS game.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I imagine the fact that so many people play it wrong likely has a lot to do with it. It is also viewed as being over powered by many people for it's ability to dump all the physical stats, and the evolution you can get might be kinda disgusting on your character as opposed to the eidolon.
Because it doesn't follow the rules from the game.
The synthesist uses 3.5 shapeshifting when every single other class or method (spell, Magic items) for shapeshifting use Pathfinder shapeshifting.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Avh speaks truth. I do think the Synthesis could be salvaged if it provided modifiers to physical stats instead of replacing the casters own.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I recall, the complexity of the rules was the main factor in the PFS ban. Like others have mentioned, the base summoner is stronger since he gets an Eidolon with the same statline as the Synthesist, while the summoner himself keeps his own action economy and a very nice spell list.
As far as I'm aware, PFS generally bans things on account of them not working well in organized play, or brushing up against the no evil characters rule. I don't follow every single PFS decision, but I'm not aware of any that were handed down solely due to balance concerns. The closest example I can think of is the Crane Wing nerf, which was a dev ruling based on PFS input.
|
|
I believe there was also a serious thematic issue involving whether the Eidolon on a Synthesist was semi-transparent, and a lot of arguments over that.
I don't know how much that factored into the decision compared to power concerns and rampant rules mistakes. The translucent thing was just your typical PFS stupidity regarding flavor.
Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Synth isn't nearly as well-balanced as wildshaping. When you wildshape, your Armor Class falls dramatically. When you merge with your eidolon, your AC goes up dramatically.
The synth is also really complicated. My last PF PC was a druid, who regularly turned into a Huge bear or tiger. I didn't need to make that many changes. Just recalc to hit, damage, AC and Reflex (which dropped by a lot), plus CMB and CMD. A synth is far more customizable, and why wouldn't you pick the most powerful combo?
The synth's real problem is confusing rules. They're long and FAQ'd over and over again. When the rules are too complicated to actually use, you don't want that popping up in a game where you just met the DM and three or five other players. In theory you could manage it in a home game, provided the DM spends a whole lot of time learning the complex rules and auditing the sheet every session. You can't expect that to work in PFS.
Those are the primary reasons for the Synthesist being given the boot in PFS. It's less about actual power and more about the fact that people wanting to play one were showing up with 3 pages of FAQs and still getting things wrong or coming to different conclusions than the GM about how everything came together. In truth, a Synthesist is no more powerful than a standard Summoner, and probably actually less so, since he loses one of the most important factors in the game, action economy.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So why is that Summoner Archtype banned from pathfinder society games? It doesn't seem any stronger than a regular summoner. Sure turning into a big magical monster is neat, but Clerics and Druids (and Wizards sometimes) can pull that off too.
I'd also like to hear comparisons between a Synthesis Summoner vs a shapeshiftin' Druid, is the SynSummoner really that much stronger to warrant banning?
I play with one at the moment.
It's OP.
Simple as that. (Oh but it only has have the action of a normal summoner!). Although true, the synthesist summoner has ridiculous defenses and stupid amounts of free AC from class features unique to the archetype (shield bonus), making it hard to threaten without invalidating the defenses of other classes. It's basically just a better barbarian plus partial casting.
|
Avh speaks truth. I do think the Synthesis could be salvaged if it provided modifiers to physical stats instead of replacing the casters own.
Something I've considered is using the Str/Dex bonus that Eidolon's get as they level up and having those apply to the Synthesist Summoer while wearing his/her Eidolon.
|
Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So why is that Summoner Archtype banned from pathfinder society games? It doesn't seem any stronger than a regular summoner. Sure turning into a big magical monster is neat, but Clerics and Druids (and Wizards sometimes) can pull that off too.
I'd also like to hear comparisons between a Synthesis Summoner vs a shapeshiftin' Druid, is the SynSummoner really that much stronger to warrant banning?
I play with one at the moment.
It's OP.
Simple as that.
Only insofar as the Summoner in general might be considered OP. Since the general Summoner isn't banned, it doesn't wash as the reason. If you jump back a year or two to the time that the ruling was made you'll see the real problem was how confusing the class was. When a GM is spending 15 minutes flicking through your FAQs and verifying that your class is built properly, it's not a good match for organized play. Especially since the result was often that the GMs were finding discrepancies or disagreeing with the player on what a particular FAQ or mechanic actually meant.
Summoners in general have a few more moving parts than most other classes and can be a little confusing. The Synthesist kicked that up a whole extra level.
Power level-wise the Synthesist probably falls a little above a mounted Cavalier and a little below a regular Summoner.
|
I don't have a problem with the summon SLA. I do think the spell list could use a little tweaking. Another way to reign it in slightly is to make a house rule that says that the eidolon may not be healed by the normal CLW and restoration spells, but can only be healed through the reguvinate/restore eidolon spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Power level-wise the Synthesist probably falls a little above a mounted Cavalier and a little below a regular Summoner.
A regular summoner has weaknesses. A synthesist does not. This is an important factor. Nothing can really challenge the synthesist outside of dismissal like spells.
Regular summoners might have higher offensive potential, but after playing with a synthesist summoner, I can tell you that it is much worse.
*Oh by the way. LAWL comparing synthesist to cavalier. Synthesist out paces The Barbarian (as in the build everyone seems to run). The cavalier doesn't even compare.
The more I read these threads the closer I get to barring Summoner all together. My current "fix" is no Summoner archetypes and the Summoners summon ability is = to Cha not 3+Cha
Yes, and we have more or less done this. First of all, every single eidolon build I have seen was mathematically or otherwise wrong, and every single time the error was in favor of more power. We have had dozens and dozens of DM's post here with some complaint about a OP summoner, and every time they have the build, it's wrong.
So, the DM has to study the rules very very carefully and go over every build with a calculator. Lots of work.
Next, look at the FAQ for the synthesist- more by far than any other archetype.
The actual best way to reign in the actual class is to have the Player tell the DM what his eidolon concept is, but the DM builds it. This was actually close to what JJ thought the class would be- you'd pick Demon or outre outsider or angelic and 4 legs or whatever, then there'd be a chart what you got, with few customizable builds.
Little hard to do that with the Synthesist.
It is banned because it is a mess. And it is OP because it allow you to out perform several other classes on there chosen field and have almost full caster power on top. In in some games the double action of a normal summoner may be better but if combat is dangerous and the opponents are clever the invulnerabillity of the synth. is better.
|
|
Touch spells still work, so does area control like walls
Touch spells potentially work, if they don't do elemental damage (Summoners have several spells and Evolutions to block that) or involve saves (Synthesists can easily have all good saves, or even a dip in Paladin making them truly unreasonable).
Walls are easily circumvented by flight, Dimension Door, or Dispel Magic, all easily accessible to a Synthesist.
Synthesists are really pretty ridiculous. I played one once, and am well aware of this. I didn't even optimize the build too much (okay, I dropped Str and Dex to 7, but aside from that...) and it was still brokenly effective at, well, almost anything I felt like doing. It was kinda crazy.
|
The summoner in general is pretty powerful. I prefer the Master Summoner archetype when a GM allows it. Never before has Time Stop been so horrific. Imagine one second, it's you vs. a few PCs, and you clearly have the upper hand. The next second, you're surrounded by Fiendish T-Rexes. In any situation, the Summoner is OP.
Synth Summoner<Master Summoner. The ability to drop Summon Monster 9 as a standard action (swift if you can get Quicken SLA) gets powerful. The ability to have any number of summons out makes it retarded. I mean it gets crazy when you are dropping 2 Trumpet Archons a turn (1 quicken, 1 regular) who are spamming Cure. Just about makes you invincible.
IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game.
Master summoner just adds mooks to the side of the PCs. They aren't unstoppable avatars of war.
IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game.
Master summoner just adds mooks to the side of the PCs. They aren't unstoppable avatars of war.
Except master summoners cause a single round to go on all night with ease. Additionally, a Master Summoner can very quickly invalidate many of the Out of Combat people with the ability to heal (archons), scout, take care of traps, and get around obstacles. And they have SO many uses of their summon monster ability that it gets ridiculous fast.
Additionally a Synthesist has many weaknesses. He is going to cause many problems in towns and cities if he is a typical munchkin Synth (with like 6 tentacles, 4 arms, and giant sized). Additionally, his Eidolon is not around when the party is asleep (random encounters!) Oh! And enforce the encumbrance rules. When his Eidolon is not out, his carrying capacity is gonna drop like a rock.
Power level-wise the Synthesist probably falls a little above a mounted Cavalier and a little below a regular Summoner.A regular summoner has weaknesses. A synthesist does not. This is an important factor. Nothing can really challenge the synthesist outside of dismissal like spells.
Regular summoners might have higher offensive potential, but after playing with a synthesist summoner, I can tell you that it is much worse.
*Oh by the way. LAWL comparing synthesist to cavalier. Synthesist out paces The Barbarian (as in the build everyone seems to run). The cavalier doesn't even compare.
The sysnthesist pretty much dispenses with the summoner's weakest link.... the summoner himself. The most powerful regular eidolon can be neutralised by putting down his weak master. A standard summoner then has to invest in his physical attributes to be viable, let alone effective.
A synthesist summoner however, can effectively tank his physical scores while min-maxing his mental ones to make his battlefield spells that much more devastating, as well has having more slots to cast. He the pretty much relies on the buffed physical scores and armor of his eidolon to protect his weak hide. Essentially, he can duplicate the traditional 3.5 Druidzilla with Natural Spell. (and yes, EVERY 3.5 PC Druid took that feat.)
Every druid ever takes the feat.... What of it?
Except master summoners cause a single round to go on all night with ease.IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game.
Master summoner just adds mooks to the side of the PCs. They aren't unstoppable avatars of war.
My bad. Let me clarify.
IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game than a master summoner player who is an inconsiderate a-hole.
Your turn should never take longer than a minute or two as a master summoner.
Master summoner is a lot of work to play if you don't want to be that guy at the table. It's this factor that master summoners were banned for. Organized play has no way for a GM to handle that guy.
|
Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Power level-wise the Synthesist probably falls a little above a mounted Cavalier and a little below a regular Summoner.A regular summoner has weaknesses. A synthesist does not. This is an important factor. Nothing can really challenge the synthesist outside of dismissal like spells.
Regular summoners might have higher offensive potential, but after playing with a synthesist summoner, I can tell you that it is much worse.
*Oh by the way. LAWL comparing synthesist to cavalier. Synthesist out paces The Barbarian (as in the build everyone seems to run). The cavalier doesn't even compare.
The Synthesist doesn't get to cast and attack in the same round. The standard Summoner does. That's a pretty big freaking weakness.
If a standard Summoner's Eidolon gets killed or banished, it doesn't leave its master standing naked surrounded by enemies who were powerful enough to drop one of the most potent war-beasts in the game. The Synthesist on the other hand, gets annihilated, doubly so since he's probably been pumping his own hp into the Eidolon to try and stay in the game.
A standard Summoner can augment his Eidolon's combat in battle, even riding it as a mount and making an amplified lance attack in the same round the Eidolon gets to Pounce. The Synthesist can only use the combat style native to his Eidolon.
The Synthesist essentially gives up a swath of abilities and options to get the level 16 and 20 abilities that every Summoner gets early, and there's never a point where he actually outclasses the base Summoner. If it weren't for the cumbersome issues of hashing out all of the moving pieces of the merged character that normally don't come into play until later levels, the Synthesist would be the training wheels version of the Summoner. Sure, it's effective enough at what it does, but what it does is just flat out not as effective as what even the base class does.
Its flaws are pretty similar to the Eldritch Knight PrC. Sure, it can cast and attack, but it can't combine the two in any meaningful way. A full blown Summoner combining his spells and battlefield control every round while his Eidolon gets to continue doing its thing blows the Synthesist out of the water.
The damage potential of a Synthesist and a standard Summoner are basically exactly equal. The difference is, the standard Summoner doesn't have to give up his damage to do other stuff like the Synthesist does, he gets to do both, all the time.
|
|
Except master summoners cause a single round to go on all night with ease.IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game.
Master summoner just adds mooks to the side of the PCs. They aren't unstoppable avatars of war.
My bad. Let me clarify.
IMHO: Synth Summoner is worst to have in a game than a master summoner player who is an inconsiderate a-hole.
Your turn should never take longer than a minute or two as a master summoner.
Master summoner is a lot of work to play if you don't want to be that guy at the table. It's this factor that master summoners were banned for. Organized play has no way for a GM to handle that guy.
Agreed. I played an undead lord necromancer with leadership who summoned monsters. I still was usually faster than half the party on my turn. Granted, we used a virtual table top, which hastened the dice rolling. I may have up to 15 bodies on the battlefield and most my turn was done by the time he said it was my turn. There were a few times were something so drastic happened right before my turn it may have taken longer, but 98% of the time I had 2 minute or less turns no matter how many bodies were there, and the majority would be under 1 minute.
Every time someone uses the Point Buy System to make a character, a puppy dies.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Every time someone uses the Point Buy System to make a character, a puppy dies.
I...what?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only thing that makes a Synthesist bad for the game is the fact that its mechanics can be exploited by the Point Buy System.
In fact, most problems inherent with class design comes in one way or another from there being a serious problem with the Point Buy System.
The only thing that makes a Synthesist bad for the game is the fact that its mechanics can be exploited by the Point Buy System.
In fact, most problems inherent with class design comes in one way or another from there being a serious problem with the Point Buy System.
And this problem is what? How does point buy cause issues with class design? 'cause in my adventures with class design, both as a homebrewer and with the Harbinger for DSP, point buy's been an aid in keeping the math clean, predictable, and comprehensible.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused... Rolling stats ends with the exact same sort of thing, except that sometimes the good stats are lower or the dumped stats are higher. If I'm playing someone who can afford to dump some stats, my lowest ones are going into those stats probably, whether or not they're rolled or point-buy.
This is true unless you're going with the AD&D-style "roll six stats in order, that's what you're locked into", in which case you've got a stat scheme that's even more hostile to roleplaying and building a character concept.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Every time someone does not use the Point Buy System to make a character, a puppy dies.
FTFY
"Hey guys. I want to insure inter-party disparity. So lets randomly roll for stats in a game that hasn't supported the random consequence of rolling for stats since AD&D!"
|
|
Honestly, I don't mind the Synthesis or the Master Summoner or regular Summoner, or any of the other archetypes. Master Summoner from my experiences is only OP if you do things like try and get 6 full attacking eagles/round by spamming summon monster out too much or something. If you do it carefully, it actually winds up feeling more like a Summoner than the entire class which is seemingly focused on hiding behind your imaginary friend while dropping pits down and buffing. Synthesis is also not too OP unless you try to be a complete DPR machine. If I ever get a chance to play one, I would probably focus on skills as much as melee, and try to be more well-rounded than pure combat. Regular Summoner is just worse at trying either of the two, but gets better action economy than the Synthesis and less cheesy than the Master Summoner.
I think the main reasons Synth got banned were that it was both confusing, and didn't fit the typically preferred way for Summoners to be in PFS, which is to say, the "Hide Behind Imaginary Friend whilst Dropping Pits and Buffs". And that it was also easy to make OP.