Heya all.
My witch just reached level 2, so it is time for me to pick my second hex. I'm going to make this a debuffer, and my level 1 hex was Evil Eye. I was going to choose either Cackle or Misfortune second, but then I thought, "why?"
Why would I choose Misfortune over Slumber?
-Both target the same save
-They have the same DC
Pros for Slumber:
-Misfortune messes the opponent up by forcing them to roll twice, but Slumber takes them completely out of combat, and for a greater duration (until cackle enters the picture, but then that eats up all move actions)
Cons for Slumber:
-Mind-affecting, so doesn't affect undead, vermin and the likes
-Doesn't work on elves and half-elves either
I don't have the faintest idea right now if we'll even spend any considerable amount of time battling undead and elves in this campaign, so those are some kind of iffy cons.
However, I really like Misfortune on a basis of "I'm an awesome witch and you can't do anything properly," so it just bothers me that Slumber seems like so much more of a strong option.
I'm sort of on the fence for which one to take. Right now my character sheet says Slumber, but since there's still time for that to change please give me your reasons for why I should (or shouldn't) pick Misfortune instead!
You have it already, slumber is a win button, unless they're immune in which case it's useless.Misfortune works on anything that rolls, although it requires cackle and/or levels to improve the duration.
The hidden downside to Slumber is that it's much more likely to provoke GM frustration. Many just ban it outright, or it falls under the all too common BBEG fudged immunity to death in the first round, but even if the GM plays it straight it's more likely to just piss them off.
You're right, I should probably ask my GM how she feels about Slumber and if she'd prefer it if I "play fair" with Misfortune instead.
If anyone else has anything that I've missed, I'd still like to know. :)
A GM I had limited slumber to putting someone to sleep for half the witches level before giving them a new save. Our witch still abused it but it was decent when fighting multiple enemies. For some strange reason we ended up fighting a band of elvish mercenaries though lol.
Anyways, ask your GM.
For some strange reason we ended up fighting a band of elvish mercenaries though lol.
Oh my, what a coinkidink.
It is worse when the elven mercenaries are disguised as humans :-)
Slumber is broken. You may take it, use it, and like it, but you will feel dirty the next day. Especially if you have someone in your party with an axe.
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It is worse when the elven mercenaries are disguised as humans :-)
Slumber is broken. You may take it, use it, and like it, but you will feel dirty the next day. Especially if you have someone in your party with an axe.
We had a scythe wielding Inquisitor...
Never felt bad using it. It's a perfectly fine hex.
It is worse when the elven mercenaries are disguised as humans :-)
Slumber is broken. You may take it, use it, and like it, but you will feel dirty the next day. Especially if you have someone in your party with an axe.
Piffle. Slumber is fine; it's actually one of the best things I've found for putting casters in harm's way. With a range of only thirty feet, while Broom Hilda is hoping that she can put the BBEG down for a round or two (before someone wakes him up), something else will be eating her face.
Compared to the sick things that any caster can do with conjuration spells, there's no overpowered hex.
Slumber wrecks encounters with few enemies.
If there's a group of them, one of them can just shake his suddenly sleepy ally awake.
I'd go with Misfortune though, as mentioned Slumber either works spectacularly, or does nothing. Misfortune is more consistent.
It is worse when the elven mercenaries are disguised as humans :-)
Slumber is broken. You may take it, use it, and like it, but you will feel dirty the next day. Especially if you have someone in your party with an axe.
Our witch in another campaign decided to take care of a slumbered enemy on her own with a greataxe... The enemy managed to survive the coup de grace and the witch almost died as a result. Lesson: Don't do coup de grace on sleeping enemies if you have +0 strength. Even with a 1d12 x3 weapon.
It's interesting to see the split opinions on the power level of Slumber... I haven't had a chance to ask my GM yet, but I think I might be leaning towards Misfortune at the moment, if only because a fight against a handicapped opponent is more exciting than no fight at all. Although easy victories can be exciting at times as well... Hmmm.
It is worse when the elven mercenaries are disguised as humans :-)
Slumber is broken. You may take it, use it, and like it, but you will feel dirty the next day. Especially if you have someone in your party with an axe.
Our witch in another campaign decided to take care of a slumbered enemy on her own with a greataxe... The enemy managed to survive the coup de grace and the witch almost died as a result. Lesson: Don't do coup de grace on sleeping enemies if you have +0 strength. Even with a 1d12 x3 weapon.
It's interesting to see the split opinions on the power level of Slumber...
My cynical opinion is that one of the major components of the split opinion is the quality of the game master, and another major component is the side of the GM screen where the person holding the opinion usually sits. Put more bluntly, lazy GMs hate slumber, and run encounters involving slumber badly.
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Slumber is just another Save or Suck. It is better than 99% of them, because you can use it as many times per day as there are targets per day.
Misfortune is a great debuff. I believe your analysis is right on.
The question is: Do you want the spotlight, or do you want your allies to have the spotlight?
5 quick ways to deal with slumber witch issues:
1) Mooks to wake up bosses.
2) Bosses who remember who almost 'one-shot' them (after #1 above).
3) Elves
4) Half-Elves
5) Undead
Keep in mind, GMs who punish players for selecting good abilities are 'bad' GMs. GMs who let powerful abilities come in with no consequence and fail to adapt tactics are also 'bad' GMs. It is about balance.
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There isn't anything game breaking about it. It is powerful, yes, but GMs have plenty of ways to protect baddies from it. Akinra hit most of them already. If your GM is having problems with handling it, encourage him to search these boards for other tricks, because this is one of those topics that comes up over and over again.
If your GM is really inventive you should find it not as powerful as you first thought.
I would wait on Misfortune until you have Accursed Hex. It really helps to have that second chance.
Keep in mind, GMs who punish players for selecting good abilities are 'bad' GMs. GMs who let powerful abilities come in with no consequence and fail to adapt tactics are also 'bad' GMs. It is about balance.
If your party frontliner gets hit with a slumber next to a scythe-wielding barbarian and is cdged immediately, he will probably complain.
I personally would rather not try to specifically counter slumber hex as I would rather not try to specifically counter synthesist summoners. I was in the slumber hex isn't so bad camp for a while. Then I watched in action. It only gets more powerful at higher levels.
Keep in mind, GMs who punish players for selecting good abilities are 'bad' GMs. GMs who let powerful abilities come in with no consequence and fail to adapt tactics are also 'bad' GMs. It is about balance.If your party frontliner gets hit with a slumber next to a scythe-wielding barbarian and is cdged immediately, he will probably complain.
I personally would rather not try to specifically counter slumber hex as I would rather not try to specifically counter synthesist summoners. I was in the slumber hex isn't so bad camp for a while. Then I watched in action. It only gets more powerful at higher levels.
I will definitely say that occasionally having a party fall victim to the same abilities and tactics they themselves exploit is usually a real eye-opener.
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I think Slumber is not unreasonable per se, but it puts a lot more pressure on the GM than most other abilities. It's probably the most available, most reusable and quite powerful SoD available on the first five levels.
It's something the GM has to worry about EVERY encounter. This makes it different from Smite Evil, Colour Spray or Hold Person, because players have to carefully measure how many of those they can afford to use, and how many more encounters might be coming. A witch can just spam it.
It also makes it impossible to hide from an ugly truth that every GM has to face at some point: that the solo boss fight doesn't work in most RPGs, against the action advantage of a whole party. But Slumber really rubs it in, so it might become the focus of resentment.
Slumber has a lot of limits and drawbacks that keep it reasonable, but as a GM you have to mentally prepare for it. It's a harder power to GM "against" than many others.
As a GM I ran a game set in a stone-age jungle. I was actually having trouble getting enough encounters where Slumber was viable; I had a lot of plant and ooze monsters on the books. I very explicitly told the witch player not to specialize in mind-affecting-only powers.
Can we please drop the whole "lazy DM" and "bad DM" thing?
There are DMs out there who simply don't have the time to make their own adventures (especially high-ish level ones) and because of that they buy APs and modules and run those instead, and they usually can't make more than minor alterations becuase they simply don't have the time (which is the reason they are buying the APs and modules).
I am not saying that people who say that things like the slumber hex can be accounted for and even countered and modarated but those poeple need to keep in mind that there DMs who can't do those things, not because they don't want to or because they are lazy or anything, but becuase it's simply not possible for them.
If your party frontliner gets hit with a slumber next to a scythe-wielding barbarian and is cdged immediately, he will probably complain.
Keep in mind, GMs who punish players for selecting good abilities are 'bad' GMs. GMs who let powerful abilities come in with no consequence and fail to adapt tactics are also 'bad' GMs. It is about balance.
Almost certainly. On the other hand, I can't imagine what SoS ability one could use in that situation that wouldn't have the whiny spoiled brat complaining. I can't imagine that he would be happy about being turned to stone, either, which is why cockatrices and medusae are so overpowering. And being hit by a death spell isn't much fun, which is why we must ban them.
Obviously, fighters must be protected from the consequences of failed saving throws at all costs.
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I played in a game with a Slumber Witch where we never ran into a single Elf (except the Witch in question). Worked fine, since we mostly didn't fight single foes who lacked good Will saves, and in a group fight, Slumber costs actions, not wins encounters on its own (since you can wake someone with an action).
The Alchemist and the Kensai/Bladebound Dex Magus were every bit as effective, and my Synthesist Summoner* (unsurprisingly) blew the witch out of the water entirely.
It's a good option, but hardly a game-breaker in a decently powerful group.
*What? I had a really good concept and had never played one before.
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Slumber IS a game changer but extremely easy to counter and is only overpowered in poorly designed encounters (single BBEG fights, which are usually un-challenging encounters to begin with).
Misfortune on the other hand is significantly more powerful. I have had more GM's complain about that hex then any other. Slumber just removes 1 opponent and the GM can concentrate on the rest of the encounter. Misfortune makes every one of his planned tactics just fail over and over again. That frustration is far more annoying for most GM's then slumber could ever be.
Thank you all for your thoughts, it's been very insightful. I've talked with my GM, and while she does see the potential for complications with slumber, she says she doesn't want to restrict her players and it's entirely on her to fix it if it does become a problem.
I have, however, decided to go with Misfortune instead. That way I can use it in good conscience in as many battles as I want without fear for detracting from the other players' fun by immediately ending too many encounters.
I really don't understand why people hate witches. Lets take 3 level 2 characters for example. A level 2 barbarian with power attack and superstition is doing 2d6+13 when raging assuming a 20 str, they have a +8 to hit with that greatsword and can charge from 80' away. A level 2 heavens oracle with spell focus illusion and awesome display has color spray 6/day treating targets as -5HD with DC 17 will save in a 15' cone again assuming 20 cha. A level 2 witch with ability focus and slumber can slumber at DC 17 all day long assuming 20 int. I agree these are all strong builds, but why does slumber get all the focus? Is it because it works for the 1 game session it takes to hit level 2 on average? Do people really spend much time at level 1? In PFS you can play the barbarian for 3 adventures and decide you want something else and switch everything about your character between level 1 and 2 as I understand. Is it that witches are easy to optimize?
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I really don't understand why people hate witches. Lets take 3 level 2 characters for example. A level 2 barbarian with power attack and superstition is doing 2d6+13 when raging assuming a 20 str, they have a +8 to hit with that greatsword and can charge from 80' away. A level 2 heavens oracle with spell focus illusion and awesome display has color spray 6/day treating targets as -5HD with DC 17 will save in a 15' cone again assuming 20 cha. A level 2 witch with ability focus and slumber can slumber at DC 17 all day long assuming 20 int. I agree these are all strong builds, but why does slumber get all the focus? Is it because it works for the 1 game session it takes to hit level 2 on average? Do people really spend much time at level 1? In PFS you can play the barbarian for 3 adventures and decide you want something else and switch everything about your character between level 1 and 2 as I understand. Is it that witches are easy to optimize?
It's more that, vs. single monsters, it can easily end the whole encounter right there, and continues to be able to do so throughout the whole 20 levels of play. And they're a 9 level prepared caster on top of it, which are definitionally some of the most powerful characters in the game even sans Slumber (though they're well behind Wizard, Druid, and Cleric if you ban Slumber).
I actually don't think it's unbalanced at all, but even with maxed out Charisma and Heightened Color Spray, the HD penalty eventually stops being enough to one-shot major foes (and that build gets called out a fair bit, too), and all the Barbarian does is damage, something almost all tough monsters have plenty of...which makes both of them less likely to one-shot really important encounters, which is, I think, where a lot of the hate comes in.
It's actually, as I noted, not that powerful vs. any fight involving several opponents who actually work together (you give up an action to cost them an action)...but it is an insta-win if your lone opponent fails to save. Of course, you could let the other PCs kill all but one opponent while you layer debuffs on that one prior to Slumbering them...but that actually sounds like a fun fight, not the kind of insa-win people complain about.