What a bard can do that a wizard can't?"Rogues do not suck because Wizards are overpowered" is a terrible argument.
ANy chance we get a list of this? You know, for just copypaste the answer when the time comes.
What a bard can do that a wizard can't?"Rogues do not suck because Wizards are overpowered" is a terrible argument.
"Bards do not suck because Wizards are overpowered" is a terrible argument.
I´m not saying rogues do not suck...i´m just following the thread line
Wizards are overpowered?
Some spells and spell combos are dumb, but Wizards? Nah.
Wizards are just their spells.
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Behold the mighty wizard
Wizard: "I cast blood money to make infinite sno-cone wish factories!"
GM:"No."
Wizard:"Why not?"
GM:"Because it's retarded."
Wizard:"Fine, I'll just planar bind a genie into granting me wishes!"
GM:"It'll pervert the wish."
Wizard:"Not after I geas/quest it!"
*GM raises eyebrows
GM:"Roll a fort save.
Wizard:"Why?"
GM:"The BBEG is using the same trick and is wishing that the heros were dead."
Wizard:"That's retarded!"
GM:"Oh glad we're on the same page. So are you still binding genies?"
Wizard:"No... I'll just bind an earth elemental to gather rare gems and ores! That way I can just buy the party +5 weapons and armor!"
GM:"Cool. You'll need to locate a buyer or find a way to cut the gems and process the ore. After that I would like to remind you that you can only buy item with a value of 16,000 gold or less."
Wizard:"OK well how long will it take to find a buyer or process the ore?"
GM:"Well the princess would rather be saved sooner than later."
Fighter:"Danger! Leeeeeroy Jenkins!"
Rest of party:"I like this whole idea of adventuring instead of trying to find ways to break the game. We'll follow the fighter."
Wizard:"Sigh, I guess I'll go too. I was having so much fun with my spreadsheets though."
GM:"Alright well as you know <insert plot>"
*time skip*
Wizard:"I cast web!"
GM:"To prevent party members from attacking the monsters?"
Wizard:"OK. Instead I'll cast fireball!"
GM:"And hit the whole party?"
Wizard:"I'll just aim it."
GM:"You're in a 20ft by 20ft room. There is nowhere to shoot it without hitting everyone."
Wizard:"OK so black tentacles!"
GM:"You'll hit the party and even if you wouldn't you would prevent people from attacking the monsters."
Wizard:"Haste?"
GM:"The spell that gives the party members extra attacks?"
Wizard:"Yes."
GM:"The spell that does more damage and is more effective than every other spell you brought up?"
Wizard:"Yes."
GM:"Cool."
Fighter:"Wooo more attacks!"
*time skip to BBEG fight
Wizard:"I cast slow!"
GM:"Not haste?"
Wizard:"Yep!"
GM:"The mooks failed the save, but the BBEG passes."
Wizard:"WOOT!"
Fighter:"GREAT CLEAVE!"
GM:"You killed all the mooks, but the BBEG is still standing. OK now it's the mooks' turn..."
Wizard:"Who are staggered!"
GM:"...and dead. Which means the BBEG is up. He calls for more mooks and attacks the fighter. The new mooks come in the back door and attack the closest party member. Which would be you in the back."
Wizard:"Me!?"
GM:"Yes. Oh looks like they knock you unconscious. The weapons were poisoned so roll a fort save."
Wizard:"8."
GM:"So you take some con damage and... you're dead."
Wizard:"WHAT IS THIS FIAT!?"
So end the tale of the mighty wizard.
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Wow. That's someone who should NEVER be a GM.
Wow, I thought Marthkus was being sarcastic this whole time. Instead it turns out he was being super serious.
How about the wizard who uses basic crafting feats (that he gets as bonus feats) to break wealth by level over his knee during downtime; uses BFC spells like web to divide and conquer the enemies so the rest of the party can all gang up on each NPC as he crawls out one at a time; who uses summons and calling to access outsiders that fight as good as the fighter and/or offer a ton of additional spells / SLAs for his use; who can at least make wishes *at all* even if they have to be a tad less outlandish than snocone wish factories in order to not irk the DM...?
Not to mention all the other crap they can do besides the direct counterarguments to the situations you talked about. Like flying. And persistent spell save-or-loses. And dazing spell to make other spells save-or-lose. And scying/divination.
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It's rare that there is a game where planar binding is being tossed around casually at the same level when combat is taking place in a 4 x 4 room, against a BBEG and mooks, and where there are ways for more mooks to run into the room, but not for AOE spells to go off without too much trouble.
Or a fighter who actually picks up great cleave. *Shrug* That line of feats has never been super impressive to me.
Wow. That's someone who should NEVER be a GM.It's rare that there is a game where planar binding is being tossed around casually at the same level when combat is taking place in a 4 x 4 room.
I dunno man I've seen plenty 20 feet by 20 feet rooms in houses and such. Maybe you got jumped in a guest bedroom in the evil wizard's demi-plane mansion that you only managed to get into via casting Wish?
While PF has given spellcasters a great many things, the absence of spellguard rings, sculpt spell metamagic feat, Extraordinary Spell Aim feat, and mastery of shaping (high arcana option for Archmage) without anything I'm aware of to replace their function is a tad noticeable. Makes the wizard a lot less team-friendly than in 3E.
That doesn't make them more balanced though, really. PF is just more rewarding to save-or-lose, buffing, and debuffing casting as opposed to blasting and BFC. A shame, the latter two were my favorite combat options as a caster, though they're still viable...the former ones are just so good now...
Wow, I thought Marthkus was being sarcastic this whole time. Instead it turns out he was being super serious.
Not really.
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Behold the mighty wizard
Wizard: "I want to play my class the way I would enjoy."
GM:"No."
Wizard:"Why not?"
GM:"Because it's not what I want."
You could have accomplished the same thing by saying that.
Why are we even talking about Wizards? This isn't even close to relevant. Also try to avoid using words like 'retarded', as they can be seen as slurs against the neurologically atypical.
Rogues are kind of terrible when standing across from Bards, and that's the point here. The only thing that could really add to the Rogue is them getting the "Lore Warden" treatment, which seems to be Scout for them, since it seems to be used in most discussions. Just sad, I really want to see Rogues master the 'mobile attacker' role that they've been pegged with. But until they get pounce or even better, a pouncing spring attack, that's not happening.
It's rare that there is a game where planar binding is being tossed around casually at the same level when combat is taking place in a 4 x 4 room, against a BBEG and mooks, and where there are ways for more mooks to run into the room, but not for AOE spells to go off without too much trouble.
Or a fighter who actually picks up great cleave. *Shrug* That line of feats has never been super impressive to me.
Like RotRL?
Seems likes there are lot's of dungeons.
Or better yet Age or Worms! Where they expected you to enter a dungeon when you had earthquake.
So many cramped dungeons in APs!
EDIT: Great cleave 4 life. It's not what it was in 3.5, but my fighters love themselves mook clearers.
Wow. That's someone who should NEVER be a GM.
Weird. Because although this is parody*, this kind of stuff has totally happened in the AP we're running (RotRL) and our GM is both good and fair. One of the better GMs I've had.
Not sure why you are for sno-cones or changing the maps in AP dungeons.
*Among many factual inaccuracies, the wizard has not died. Nor do we even have a fighter.
A good GM should say no to abuses like infinite wishes, sure. It is a bit damning that he has to in the first place rather than it just not being allowed, but fine. My problem is you acting like that's ALL a wizard does or tries to do. They can keep the optimization "softcore" and still be utterly dominant and powerful, and can replace whole classes with their spells if they wish to. Sure, tact would require them not to obsolete an actual party member, but the fact that they can do so at all is pretty nuts. A rogue, even with an item that grants a huge bonus to Use Magic Device and 10 times normal wealth still can't obsolete a wizard. But a wizard can totally obsolete a rogue.
Neither could a commoner.
Oh wait I forgot. Technically rogues are a PC class. Someone should tell the devs.
It's rare that there is a game where planar binding is being tossed around casually at the same level when combat is taking place in a 4 x 4 room, against a BBEG and mooks, and where there are ways for more mooks to run into the room, but not for AOE spells to go off without too much trouble.
Or a fighter who actually picks up great cleave. *Shrug* That line of feats has never been super impressive to me.
Like RotRL?
Seems likes there are lot's of dungeons.
Or better yet Age or Worms! Where they expected you to enter a dungeon when you had earthquake.
So many cramped dungeons in APs!
EDIT: Great cleave 4 life. It's not what it was in 3.5, but my fighters love themselves mook clearers.
Yeah, cramped dungeons just don't work for me at a certain point. Early on, sure, and in a way they can actually help with class balance (no where for that wizard to fly), but I don't like running them past a certain point. Past level 6, I like to keep things in an area that is at least 50 x 50 ft.
Ok i know that i am continuing the threadjack but (since i have run RotRL) i have to ask, where did you find small dungeon rooms in RotRL? At book 3+ everything is sized for multiple Large+ creatures.
36d6 damage every round
/thread
36d6 damage every round
/thread
No rogue can do that. None.
Because no foe is flatfooted every round and you have no sure way to make flanking happen. And sometimes you have to move, or the enemy has fortification, or uncanny dodge.
Have every skill in the game as a class skill, take 10 on all of them, do every knowledge check untrained, still be a great face.
You got it backwards. Those are all things the bard can do, but the rogue can't.
So if the rogue lands every single attack despite medium BAB, MAD, and TWF...he does on average 126 damage (36d6). Yeah, a Barbarian or Fighter 2-handing with power attack can do that much on a full attack if not more, too. Except they actually get pounce or pounce-like options (Mobile and Dawnflower Dervish Fighter; Greater Beast Totem), have no situational limits on when they can do it, and have much better chances of landing all the hits they need to make that damage. And of course can also survive in melee much better.
I really don't know what level your rogue is, but...
Level 12 Lore Warden Fighter:
2d6 base (greatsword)
+12 (20 [26 w/ belt] Str x1.5)
+3 (enhancement...just guessing what it'd be by level 12)
+12 (Power Attacking for -4)
+4 (weapon training w/ gloves of dueling)
+4 (greater weapon specialization)
That's 2d6+35, or an average of 42. Needs to land 3 hits to do 126, identical to your rogue. Luckily, he has 3 attacks just as a basis, w/o even needing haste, or use of AoOs, etc...
Look 2 posts up from me. Someone asked for a list of things the bard could do that the wizard couldnt.Have every skill in the game as a class skill, take 10 on all of them, do every knowledge check untrained, still be a great face.You got it backwards. Those are all things the bard can do, but the rogue can't.
I said "What bards can DO" not" what bards can HAVE. Don't mather if the bard has xyz if the wizard can do without xyz.
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Is this "throw lots of dice each round" or "do a bunch of damage each round" in intent and meaning?36d6 damage every round
/thread
Pretty much. . . Rogue can sneak attack with ever attack essentially every round since it is so easy to flank with anything. Bards can't do that.
Pretty much. . . Rogue can sneak attack with ever attack essentially every round since it is so easy to flank with anything. Bards can't do that.Is this "throw lots of dice each round" or "do a bunch of damage each round" in intent and meaning?36d6 damage every round
/thread
Oh look sarcasm!
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Nope. The lowest anti-optimization floor among PC classes belongs to the wizard so that's a prize neither the bard nor rogue is getting.Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?Be the worst?
I'd actually argue that a sorcerer, monk, or fighter has a lower floor.
The wizard can progressively learn and change spells as he adventures along. They can buy scrolls when they decide they need a different set of spells in their spellbook. The sorcerer... waits a couple of levels and then slowly tries to remove the garbage. This is, of course, talking in a world where players are left on their own to build their first caster. With proper DMing, I'll still recommend a sorcerer over the wizard for ease of play.
The monk is the monk, and still has a bunch of rules that don't synergize like they should (High Move speed + Flurry), and things that should be buffs but actually suck (Diamond Soul). I still don't know how to play the class.
The fighter is a different beast all together. Feat chains are so damned long, that there are only 3 results for a fighter.
- Start on the wrong feat chain early and waste levels trying to get back on the right track. Hopefully not wasting time or needing to get onto a feat-intensive line.
- Start on the wrong feat chain early and stay stuck on it until it's too late
- Find yourself on the right track and stay on it for most of the game, making good use of feats.
That last one is hard to do, especially if you don't have a combat style goal for your character down the line. Take a couple situational feats because of what your party has faced recently, and your suddenly that many more levels behind the curve. Like with the sorcerer, this can often be achieved with help from other players. Unlike the sorcerer, fighters often find themselves diving outside of core, by necessity, to make effective characters.
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Nope. The lowest anti-optimization floor among PC classes belongs to the wizard so that's a prize neither the bard nor rogue is getting.Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?Be the worst?
While this is technically true it is utterly disingenuous.
Most people who are new to wizards will probably write up a blaster. Sure, it's not the most powerful way to play a wizard, but it's effective nonetheless. You'll certainly eventually get to be the most powerful DPS class in the game - sure, you'll never hit the single target numbers like a well-built barbarian or smiting Paladin, but no one else can clear a mob like the guy with Maximized Fireball.
But to make a terrible wizard you would have to actively make nonsensical choices. Sure, if you only prepare Crafter's Curse and Transfer Tattoo every day you'll be less useful than a Rogue. But guess what? You can always rebuild that wizard with new spells, scrolls, etc. The Rogue is stuck with his crappy abilities for his entire adventuring career.
What are you fighting that a single maximized fireball will clear a mob?Nope. The lowest anti-optimization floor among PC classes belongs to the wizard so that's a prize neither the bard nor rogue is getting.Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?Be the worst?While this is technically true it is utterly disingenuous.
Most people who are new to wizards will probably write up a blaster. Sure, it's not the most powerful way to play a wizard, but it's effective nonetheless. You'll certainly eventually get to be the most powerful DPS class in the game - sure, you'll never hit the single target numbers like a well-built barbarian or smiting Paladin, but no one else can clear a mob like the guy with Maximized Fireball.
But to make a terrible wizard you would have to actively make nonsensical choices. Sure, if you only prepare Crafter's Curse and Transfer Tattoo every day you'll be less useful than a Rogue. But guess what? You can always rebuild that wizard with new spells, scrolls, etc. The Rogue is stuck with his crappy abilities for his entire adventuring career.
Well if you took a 1 level dip into cross-blooded sorcerer with orc and dragon (red) bloodlines, and started with Wayang Spell-hunter and that one other trait (i forgot what it was called, the one that also reduces meta-magic level), and be an admixture wizard with a goblin war drum you can actually kill most things pretty quickly. Cast a Dazing Hieghtened Fireball with a Empowered Rod you can blow up pretty much everything with a 3rd level spell slot.
Well if you took a 1 level dip into cross-blooded sorcerer with orc and dragon (red) bloodlines, and started with Wayang Spell-hunter and that one other trait (i forgot what it was called, the one that also reduces meta-magic level), and be an admixture wizard with a goblin war drum you can actually kill most things pretty quickly. Cast a Dazing Hieghtened Fireball with a Empowered Rod you can blow up pretty much everything with a 3rd level spell slot.What are you fighting that a single maximized fireball will clear a mob?Nope. The lowest anti-optimization floor among PC classes belongs to the wizard so that's a prize neither the bard nor rogue is getting.Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?Be the worst?While this is technically true it is utterly disingenuous.
Most people who are new to wizards will probably write up a blaster. Sure, it's not the most powerful way to play a wizard, but it's effective nonetheless. You'll certainly eventually get to be the most powerful DPS class in the game - sure, you'll never hit the single target numbers like a well-built barbarian or smiting Paladin, but no one else can clear a mob like the guy with Maximized Fireball.
But to make a terrible wizard you would have to actively make nonsensical choices. Sure, if you only prepare Crafter's Curse and Transfer Tattoo every day you'll be less useful than a Rogue. But guess what? You can always rebuild that wizard with new spells, scrolls, etc. The Rogue is stuck with his crappy abilities for his entire adventuring career.
True but thats empowered and maximized, not just maximized, and the trait you're looking for is the magical heritage trait. Oh and you forgot spell perfection with maximized. [/QUOTE
Oops I knew I forgot something haha. But you really don't even need maximize at that point. Between your Arcana bonuses, your Goblin Wardrum, Dazing Spell, and empower you are pretty much blowing up most things :p
Oops I knew I forgot something haha. But you really don't need maximize at that point. Between your Arcana bonuses, your Goblin Wardrum, Dazing Spell, and empower you are pretty much blowing up most things :pTrue, but if its gonna be 3rd level anyways, why the heck not? :P
True xD Why not make the rogue cry even more. Your one spell is nearly invalidating him in combat AND you still have all your 1st, 2nd, and other 3rd level slots to do his job OOC (charm X for face, Dominate if your a dick, Find Traps, Knock, invisibility, vanish, Minor Image, ect.)
I just love when I move to flank, miss my attack, and then the fighter kills the guy we're flanking before my next turn. Rinse and repeat.Even better I get to be punched in the face by giants because Acrobatics doesn't keep pace with CMD even if I invest max ranks in it together with skill focus and a magic item competence booster.
NOt sure if this is particularly true. At 10 level we have for a dex based rogue
13 (skills) + 7 dex + 6 skill focus +5 magic item = 31
Wich is probably enough for most encounters.
Now, having to invest that much does sucks.
I just love when I move to flank, miss my attack, and then the fighter kills the guy we're flanking before my next turn. Rinse and repeat.Even better I get to be punched in the face by giants because Acrobatics doesn't keep pace with CMD even if I invest max ranks in it together with skill focus and a magic item competence booster.NOt sure if this is particularly true. At 10 level we have for a dex based rogue
13 (skills) + 7 dex + 6 skill focus +5 magic item = 31
Wich is probably enough for most encounters.
Now, having to invest that much does sucks.
It's pretty good, but with that kind of investment it should be auto-success. Even with a 31 you need an 8 to Acrobatics around a Huge Giant of some kind.