|
ALright, so let's say you're playing a punchy bad touch cleric with a level or two in monk. Theoretically, would you want BOTH of your domains to be bad touch oriented (spells and domain powers, etc), or would one (such as madness) be enough? the question is asked because the protection (defense) domain would add a LOT of durability and survivability to a bad touch cleric, and save a lot of money on equipment (no amulet of natural armor, no cloak of resist, etc). do you think you need to devote both your domains to bad touching, or can the other one be used for utility or defense? this is all purely theoretical.
Well you would have to make the final decision as it depends how you want to play. ^^
If both domains support the melee touch caster style, you have more options for "bad touch" attacks.
However it will limit your general options. Sometimes you might want to have other spells or abilities.
In short:
If you want more options for the thing you do, get 2 domains for melee.
If you want more options as a cleric in general get 1 domain for melee and 1 for utility.
I personally would simply check which 2 domains work very well off each other.
The Growth subdomain for example would give you Enlarge Person at 1st level (both as spell and an ability), increasing your reach for your touch attacks, while also giving you some nice utility spells.
|
|
I was actually thinking either madness/protection (defense), or madness/mountain (the idea being a self-reliant crazy mountain man woodsy mystic. mountain gives you a GREAT debuff aura, and some really nice spells. protection(defense) gives me the ability to pay a fraction of the cost for my magic items negating the need for two to three expensive career wide magic items. This is in savage tides (The 3.5) module, which is notoriously poor money wise for the PCs. mountain gives me strong BC and buff spells with a nice debuff aura. defense increases my survivability and AC to pretty ridiculous levels, saves me cash, and actually gives me a nice selection of non debuff spells.
|
|
True, but if you're a cleric worshiping an ideal, you should be fine. As long as it's DM approved and it makes sense. Hence my conundrum. So from what I'm hearing, it's not a bad idea to have one bad touch domain and one utility/defensive domain. Hmmm now to decide how focused on debuffing I want to be, and how important living is. heh
|
|
True, but this is in Greyhawk, since it's Savage Tide. The character used to worship one of the gods of madness, Ralishaz, but went completely insane and lost his memory about five years ago. He doesn't know why nor does he remember anything before that. That is when he started wandering. He still pays some lip service to Ralishaz but mostly just has been trying to survive and work out his own inner demons in the wild. And he's still getting spells, and once again, doesn't know why. His domains would have changed to Madness and either mountain or protection. depending on if i wanna focus more on his connection to the mountains or his survival and self preservation instinct respectively. That's the character concept in a nutshell anyway.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just have to say, I can't stand the "bad touch" term. ESPECIALLY when you're talking about clerics, or, as you could say, priests.
But sadly the Madness domain is limited to Lemastu as the only deity who grants access.Not true. There are several deities that grant the Madness Domain, Sivanah and Tsukiyo are very attractive.
Sivanah grants Trickery and Madness, which is a great combination for defense (Copycat) + debuff (Vision of Madness).
It depends on what you want. Personally, I like having one 'melee-centric debuffing priest' domain, and one that can support the overall function of the build. Which can either be granting more debuffs, or providing defense, or whatever else that would help you get in close and smack your enemies in the face.
On a random note, I like the Darkness domain for melee bebuffing...
It's the discomfort that amuses me.
:)
In any case for a punchy bad touch cleric getting hit bonuses is a little mroe important than having extra debuffs, afterall you can get your hands on things like scorpion style, or stunning fist if you want to apply extra debuffs. Just don't forget spell storing amulet's of the fist so you can apply multiple debuffs.
So, trickery works, as does going Evangelist, or picking up Demon domains. Anything that can get your attack bonus up is welcome. Damage is a distand third to hitting and debuffs.
|
+1 to what TarkXT said.
Suggestion:
Groetus allows the Chaos and Void domains, and his Clerics are always entertaining.
Since this is the Advice forum, I'll suggest that the Void and Chaos(Protean) Domain combo is probably one of the most optimized arrangements for a Bad Touch Cleric.
The Protean Aura of Chaos power is strictly better than Chaos Blade (and hilarious). Replacing the 3rd level Domain spell Magic Circle Against Law with Displacement speaks for itself.
Roll 2d20 to hit me... now roll 50% miss chance.
Void (ISWG) gives you a +2 Insight to saves vs. Mind Affecting at 1st level. The 8th level power Part the Veil is at least somewhat useful (swift action debuff) and its Domain spells are almost all strong options.
|
|
Thanks all! I'm gonna go for Madness and Protection/Defense. The former for debuffing and some mind affects, as well as a killer aura and touch of madness. and then defense/protection for survivability. the campaign that we're in is notoriously poor, and we have very little money in it. so the money saving is good. some of the spells are great, and in addition, the aura at 8th will help the party's defenses. for 'to hit' bonuses, short of being an evangelist or using demon domain (which dont fit the character at all, and considering the main enemies are demons, that wont fit) how do you suggest getting to hit bonuses with domains? or do you think the defense domain is a bad backup?
thanks for all your help, this is providing a lot of good food for thought.
|
ALright, so let's say you're playing a punchy bad touch cleric with a level or two in monk. Theoretically, would you want BOTH of your domains to be bad touch oriented (spells and domain powers, etc), or would one (such as madness) be enough? the question is asked because the protection (defense) domain would add a LOT of durability and survivability to a bad touch cleric, and save a lot of money on equipment (no amulet of natural armor, no cloak of resist, etc). do you think you need to devote both your domains to bad touching, or can the other one be used for utility or defense? this is all purely theoretical.
One is enough, but if you intend on having more control in a martial aspect - I'd say go for it! You can also refrain from using multiple standards if you put Conductive on one of your weapons.
That why I mentioned Tsukiyo, he has Madness + Darkness, although he is Good, so you miss out on negative channeling which is helpful for this kind of thing.
Hmm... to my best of knowledge, Groetus (who is CN) gives those two domains, as well - and will allow you to choose whether you'd like to channel positive or negative.
|
|
@OP, I think that the Protection(Defense) Domain isn't terrible, but there are better choices out there. It's essentially a utility option.
That 8th level aura is going to be generally worthless because by the time you get there, most people will have a Ring of Protection +1 or +2.
The bonuses don't stack. I think that you're better off doing something else with your Standard action in any given round.
It does replace the need for a Cloak of Resistance for you though, so that frees up some options later on. Cape of the Mountebank perhaps?
Getting Barkskin as a 2nd level Domain spell is nice, but it has the same problem as the aura; a lot of PCs will have an Amulet of Natural Armor that will not stack with it. Barkskin can be replaced with consumables if you really want the bonus.
You asked about getting to-hit bonuses... There are some domains that can provide that, but they're generally inefficient. The best route, IMO, is to take the Fate's Favored Trait (Ultimate Campaign) and cast a buff:
Divine Favor, Prayer, Divine Power all benefit from it.
At 1st level you can give yourself +2 to hit and +2 to damage with Divine Favor.
There are threads that discuss the variety of ways that this Trait is awesome.
The Mountain Domain is interesting, but mostly becuase of your character background/flavor. I wouldn't say that the debuff aura is great, but it's something to do. It's only a 5' aura, but you're going to be up in combat anyway, so I guess that's good. Fatigued isn't that serious of a condition at 8th level though, unless you have some way of working a combo with an Arcane caster (Ray of Exhaustion) or Druid (Heatstroke). The 1st level ability is a little weird and situational, but the spell list is solid.
If you have some flexibility with your second Domain and you want an aura that adds a good bonus, look at Glory(Heroism). Swift action activation for an aura (as the Heroism spell), a bonus to Channel Energy DC, and a decent spell list.
|
|
Heroism doesnt fit his character very well. he's kinda... not heroic. his driving force is to decide if he is to embrace or cure his madness, an to survive. You're right about defense, it would save me money ,and that's about the extent of it. The nice thing is i have domain strike. so i walk up to someone, hit them with a punch, use my visions of madness ability, and debuff their saves, then as a free action turn on the mountain aura, and they will most certainly be fatigued. next round i can just start using stunning fist to stun them and keep them in place and start debuffing their stats. and yes, we do have a wizard, he's an evoker, so heatstroke is not a bad idea. Darkness would be really handy, and breed more versatility, as well as give another 'bad touch' ability, though i'm not sure if it fits the character. i've looked at all the domains and it's pretty much either protection/defense to save money and jack up my AC with shield and barkskin, or mountain for another (FREE ACTION) aura, and some killer save or lose spells that mesh well with visions of madness.
also, are you suggesting I channel negative so i can cast harm spells on people? i've never found that to be very useful. i wanted to channel positive so i dont have to memorize healing spells.
|
Channel Energy is good to hurt people with channel smite or quick channel, the spontaneous cure spells don't really matter much because you can still prepare them normally, or just use a wand.
If it really bothered you, since you are neutral and worship a neutral god, you could take versatile channel to channel positive or negative energy.
|
|
That is an interesting plan.
I think Darkness is a cool domain. You get a free feat, a nice touch attack, and decent domain spells. It's better than Protection at any rate.
In my experience, Cleric and Monk do not go together very well. I watched a friend struggle through 10 levels of Clonk in a campaign and it ended up being unsatisfying and ineffective.
The other issue with multiclassing is that your Vision of Madness is based off of total Cleric levels. It will lag behind if you take Monk levels. If you are going to be a bad touch Cleric, your main touch attack should be as strong as possible.
Your best bet looks like Madness and Darkness, which kind of fits the character you describe. The subdomains for Darkness don't offer much of note.
Like I said before, the Chaos(Protean) domain is, IMO, the best bad touch Domain.
As Imbicatus pointed out, since your god is Neutral, you can use Versatile Channel. It's kind of less-effective than either Positive or Negative, but it's a neat trick.
You might find the Alignment Channel feat more useful than versatile channel if you will be fighting a lot of Demons. Choose "Chaos" and you can just use your regular Channel Positive it to harm them just like you'd use it to harm undead.
|
|
Well, i was only taking one level in monk. mostly to fit the aesthetic and also to keep me mobile without sacrificing defense. it also fits the character very much. domain strike is cheaper money wise and usage wise than a conductive weapon and is available from level 3ish. another thing is, i'm using the scroll scholar archetype. reason being is he has a sort of 'insight through madness' shtick going, giving him skill bonuses and insight bonuses to things. as such, i dumped cha, and am not worrying about channeling. It's not a thing that is a part of the character, and I dont have the feats to support it anyway. Since this is how it's turning out i'll just post the build so you guys can see it.
Remember, this is savage tide, the campaign is ending at level 23. I'm taking four levels in human favored for cleric, giving me +4 to beat the SR of outsiders, the main enemies in this campaign, hence taking spell pen so late. DS & SR are abbreviations for the scroll scholar archetype, which gives you bardic knowledge for those skills and eventually comp lang and identify as constant spell-likes. we are using 25 point buy because this is one of the paizo big three and it's a brutal and tough campaign designed for the tail end of 3.5.
Male CN Human
Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cleric 19/Monk 2
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 17+2 (all bonus points)
Cha 7
Traits: Abendego Spellpiercer
Traits: Fate's Favored
Traits: Magical Knack: Cleric
Flaw: Condescending
Archetype: Monk of the Empty Hand & Scroll Scholar (gives up Mountain domain power)
Deity: Formerly Ralishaz
Domain: Mountain & Madness
Favored Class: Spell Pen (4), HPs & Skills (every 5 lvls) (Cleric)
1- Improved Initiative
B Heighten Spell
DS Nature
2M Combat Reflexes
3- Domain Strike
5- Preferred Spell: Bestow Curse
6DS Dungeoneering
7- Power Attack
9- Planned Spontineity
11- Reach Spell
DS Planes
12SR Identify
13- Quicken Spell
14SR Comprehend Languages
15- Spell Penetration
16DS Religion
17- Spell Perfetion: Bestow Curse
19- Preferred Spell: Heal
21- Greater Spell Penetration
DS Arcana
23- Spell perfection: Confusion???
|
|
went with the above, with mountain domain. Coordinating with the wizard to debuff people with the thin air aura. gonna combine that with heat stroke and exhaust them as fast as we can, in addition to the other effects. Thanks for all the help, though i'm still curious what you guys think about the feat progression. heighten is so early b/c i had no where else to put it.
I just have to say, I can't stand the "bad touch" term. ESPECIALLY when you're talking about clerics, or, as you could say, priests.
Lol so true, it is a silly term that needs to be renamed. Its not all that fitting either.
Lol