Why should spellcasters always succeed? So one class, one, has a chance to not get railed hard by the 20th level Mythic 10 caster. You'll be glad you have the barbarian in your party when they're the only one that can survive the magic to bring the caster down. And you'll also be happy when he can sunder the domination magic off of you."Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?
A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.
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A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.
Yes, because certainly the caster should be able to win by only using Save or Suck or Save or Die spells against the barbarian. They certianly can't do any number of other things to neutralize the barbarian and kill him.
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A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.
An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b!*@# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
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I feel like this is a thread about how there is one class the can actually challenge casters using their normal schtick, and we have to nerf them to maintain caster dominance.
A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b%*%# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
A well built MT 10 fighter will wreck ANY non mythic level 20 caster.
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A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.
For a round or two? Yeah, they probably should. It's only a 5 CR difference. That's like saying a 15th level character should never make a Save vs. a 20th level character. It's not like an Archmage 10 doesn't have options that don't involve Saves (flying + greater invisibility + meteor swarm while wearing half a dozen defensive buffs thanks to Time Stop comes to mind...).
And anyway, I'm getting a 42 Save DC or so on that (though raising it more is very possible, Mythic Eldritch Heritage - Arcane, orjust the Arcane Bloodline comes to mind). A Barbarian 20 with, oh, we'll say Dex 20, Wisdom 20 and Iron Will only has a +31 Reflex Save and a +33 Will Save at that level counting Superstition...so he still fails almost half of the time (more if it's Reflex based). And the Wizard can almost certainly get several of those off before the Barbarian kills him if he's put any thought into defensive buffs at all. Or Enervate/Energy Drain the poor guy to death (no save on those bad boys, and you can Quicken Enervate). 3d4 level-drain a turn will kill almost anyone in two turns, and the Archmage can survive that long.
So, in summary: Yes, such a character should have some hope against such an adversary, at least if part of a group (PCs are intended to have some chance in an APL+5 CR fight, after all)...but it's not much of a chance going one-on-one.
Just to remind people. Fighters (Vikings) can rage and can take rage powers. Granted, they get them a few levels later than a Barbarian. Personally think the Viking is better than a Barbarian. =P
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A well built MT 10 fighter will wreck ANY non mythic level 20 caster.A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b%*%# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
How exactly? Is there a mythic champion power that creates an antimagic field? Because without the support of his own mage, how exactly does any pure martial character do ANYTHING to a 20th level caster?
How exactly? Is there a mythic champion power that creates an antimagic field? Because without the support of his own mage, how exactly does any pure martial character do ANYTHING to a 20th level caster?A well built MT 10 fighter will wreck ANY non mythic level 20 caster.A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b%*%# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
hahaha. Champion is for un-optimized fighters. Guardian + mythic vital strike is the way to go.
Basically you are invincible, your ranged attack does like 120 damage and your melee is instant death. So you get within throwing range, mythic initiative and chop off 240 hp from the caster.
The caster has to go full batman mode to even begin to handle you and one mistake leads to them being dead.
If they are ever foolish enough to get within 30ft, they die.
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Thrown), Step Up
10|Bravery, Vital Strike
11|Armor training, Improved Vital Strike
12|Strike Back
13|Weapon training(Bows), Improved Iron Will
14|Bravery, Stand Still
15|Armor training, Deadly Aim
16|Greater Vital Strike
17|Weapon training(Close), Disruptive
18|Bravery, Spellbreaker
19|Armor mastery, Great Fortitude
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
Guardian(Absorb Blow)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Vital Strike, Quickdraw, Spellbreaker
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Armored Might, Adamantine Mind, Ever Ready, Parry Spell, Mythic Resolve, Shrug it off, Borrow Elements, Mythic Sustenance, Sleepless
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I really dislike the standard suprestition chain + invulnerable rager + beast totem + come and get me build
Seriously dislike it.
It is just by far the strongest build. You try to build a barbarian without those and you end to be MASSIVELY inferior to the standard barbarian.
I dislike such imbalance among options.
I dislike such imbalance among options.
Thank you! Someone understands the problem.
Can superstitious barbarian drink a potion of healing?
Are there any non-magical methods of healing?
It is not neccesary for it to be non magical. any Supernatural way will work, like channel energy or the witch heal hex.
Amp up the barbarians alternative rage power paths
This is basically what I am saying. if the(by now) standard rage pwoers have to be the baseline for the class power then give them other optiosn at the same power level.
Everytime I play a PbP in this forum and there is a barbarian then the sueprstition + beast totem are there, that is just wrong.
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I dislike such imbalance among options.Thank you! Someone understands the problem.
Solution: make the other barbarian rage powers better.
Follow-up solution: make other non-casting classes better all-around as well.
Winners: everyone!
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Barbarians are unbalancedMore than this?
A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.
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They are barbarians! They dont care to get hit! They dont are to take spells! The dont care for things like game balance!!
A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.Not even this?
Hmmmm. Aside from making the Commoner Lich, I will have to say you found a counter example.
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Barbarians unbalanced? They can fall into a psychotic rage if someone looks at them funny, unbalanced is too polite for the type of batpoop crazy exhibited by barbarians.
Ipslore has it right, barbarians are in line with the power of Alchemists, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Gunslingers, Inquisitors, Oracles, Paladins, Rangers, Socerers & Wizards while being overpowered compared Cavaliers, Fighters, Monks & Rogues.
I wouldn't include the Cavalier in the list of underpowered classes. Possibly the best single target dpr in the game, improved action economy thanks to a mount doing the moving for them, decent party buffs, and the ability to increase the total action economy of the party with things like immediate action charges and ranged attacks, plus 4+Int skills and a reason to invest in Charisma put them a cut above the Fighter, Rogue and Monk. With all of the archetypes and feats out there now, even the monk (taken as a whole using the entire core line of material) isn't all that bad. There's also been plenty of threads showing that the Fighter can out-damage the Barbarian in combat, though he has less total utility.
Barbarian definitely isn't overpowered, he, along with the Ranger and Paladin, are actually probably the baseline that all other classes should be balanced to. That being said, his ability to resolve far more situations and deal incredibly high bursts of single target damage do kind of make the Fighter look bad. And everyone kind of makes the Rogue look bad. But taken against the total sum of existing material, it's really just that the Fighter and Rogue are behind the curve. The Barbarian is solidly where he should be.
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***What about spells with no save? Waves of fatigue and waves of exhaustion brutalize barbarians lol.
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Any barbarian not wearing a cord of stubborn resolve deserves what he gets when those spells are cast.
There's also been plenty of threads showing that the Fighter can out-damage the Barbarian in combat, though he has less total utility.
Ah, unfortunately no. at least not at higher levels. It is in lemmy´s martial build thread. The fighter was a 15th level dervish of dawn, the better fighter arcehtpe for full attack DPR at that level, and the barbarian was just a barbarian.
The absurdly high sinergy of furious corageous weapons and other itmes make the barbarian attack routine absurdly high.
And the diference in saves was at least 10 points.
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Any barbarian not wearing a cord of stubborn resolve deserves what he gets when those spells are cast.***What about spells with no save? Waves of fatigue and waves of exhaustion brutalize barbarians lol.
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Not particulary the best option. There is a ioun stone and wayfinder for that.
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There's also been plenty of threads showing that the Fighter can out-damage the Barbarian in combat, though he has less total utility.Ah, unfortunately no. at least not at higher levels. It is in lemmy´s martial build thread. The fighter was a 15th level dervish of dawn, the better fighter arcehtpe for full attack DPR at that level, and the barbarian was just a barbarian.
The absurdly high sinergy of furious corageous weapons and other itmes make the barbarian attack routine absurdly high.
And the diference in saves was at least 10 points.
No offense to Lemmy, but that's hardly the be-all end-all. There have been lots of really good dpr olympics, and the Fighter has won as many of those as he's lost. It's everything else he fails at.
Even the guy you're quoting says so.
Even the guy you're quoting says so.
Why did you remind me of that thread?
Granted, I see it every-time I google "skill monkey rogue".
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Not particulary the best option. There is a ioun stone and wayfinder for that.Any barbarian not wearing a cord of stubborn resolve deserves what he gets when those spells are cast.***What about spells with no save? Waves of fatigue and waves of exhaustion brutalize barbarians lol.
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I try not to bring non-core options into discussions, since
a) They're often experimental and part of the reason they're in a splat book is to give them time to circulate before the designers make final decisions about re-introducing them as a core item
and
b) The design team doesn't issue FAQ or errata for non-core books, so it's hard to gauge whether they intend for it to be widely used or available
To my knowledge neither Wayfinders nor exhaustion preventing ioun stones are core options, so I don't consider them relevant to an effective discussion.
There's also been plenty of threads showing that the Fighter can out-damage the Barbarian in combat, though he has less total utility.Ah, unfortunately no. at least not at higher levels. It is in lemmy´s martial build thread. The fighter was a 15th level dervish of dawn, the better fighter arcehtpe for full attack DPR at that level, and the barbarian was just a barbarian.
The absurdly high sinergy of furious corageous weapons and other itmes make the barbarian attack routine absurdly high.
And the diference in saves was at least 10 points.
No offense to Lemmy, but that's hardly the be-all end-all. There have been lots of really good dpr olympics, and the Fighter has won as many of those as he's lost. It's everything else he fails at.
Even the guy you're quoting says so.
Never said it was lemmys work, just that it was in lemmys thread. I think i t was a thomas long build
I'm... really at a lost with regard to these comments along the lines of "the Barbarians abilities are so dumb he just gets +X to stuff".
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I was under the impression that every ability in the game was one of two things:
1) +X/-X to a roll
2) Rolling more/bigger dice
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I'm... really at a lost with regard to these comments along the lines of "the Barbarians abilities are so dumb he just gets +X to stuff".
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I was under the impression that every ability in the game was one of two things:
1) +X/-X to a roll
2) Rolling more/bigger dice
3) you now can do something that before you could not even attempt (spell sunder).
3) you now can do something that before you could not even attempt (spell sunder).I'm... really at a lost with regard to these comments along the lines of "the Barbarians abilities are so dumb he just gets +X to stuff".
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I was under the impression that every ability in the game was one of two things:
1) +X/-X to a roll
2) Rolling more/bigger dice
As are a number of spells. Sure. Still doesn't answer the question of why "+X on rolls" is stupid for Barbarians when it is not stupid for every other class.
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What I read is:
I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that thanjust adding a +6-12 to all d20 rollsactually allowing them to be competitive.
What I read is:I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that thanjust adding a +6-12 to all d20 rollsactually allowing them to be competitive.
What!?