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Except that if we all start thinking this way, each class will effectively have only a small handful of options. That sounds really boring to me. That's why many people prefer to nerf or ban the really attractive/powerful options. You want most or all of the choices to feel valid, at least when measured against one another. Otherwise you wind up rewarding optimizers, while effectively punishing people who choose their builds based on aesthetic or RP motivations.
That pretty much leads back to the much talked about martial-magic disparity; the good "must have" martial options work to lessen that gap, but then are seen as "too good" compared to the other martial options that make people talk about the disparity in the first place.
I think Ogrebattle has a point. Instead of making Beast Totem garbage, let's look at the other options and make them viable enough to be used without making a deliberate choice to be sub-par. For example, the Hive Totem line. Wow, that's terrible. Options like that should be made so that they are powerful in their own way; if there were more good options you would see less cookie cutter builds.
Except that if we all start thinking this way, each class will effectively have only a small handful of options. That sounds really boring to me. That's why many people prefer to nerf or ban the really attractive/powerful options. You want most or all of the choices to feel valid, at least when measured against one another. Otherwise you wind up rewarding optimizers, while effectively punishing people who choose their builds based on aesthetic or RP motivations.That pretty much leads back to the much talked about martial-magic disparity; the good "must have" martial options work to lessen that gap, but then are seen as "too good" compared to the other martial options that make people talk about the disparity in the first place.
I think Ogrebattle has a point. Instead of making Beast Totem garbage, let's look at the other options and make them viable enough to be used without making a deliberate choice to be sub-par. For example, the Hive Totem line. Wow, that's terrible. Options like that should be made so that they are powerful in their own way; if there were more good options you would see less cookie cutter builds.
You're exactly right, but why do we always talk about buffing martials, rather than considering the opposite solution? Why is the talk never about majorly nerfing or banning the casters instead?
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You're exactly right, but why do we always talk about buffing martials, rather than considering the opposite solution? Why is the talk never about majorly nerfing or banning the casters instead?
It may be a matter of personal preference, but for me is because I like the cool, high-powered things Pathfinder offers. I like my high level barbarian can get stabbed in the face and have the sword bounce off. I like my Bard being able to lie so well that reality seems to reshape itself. I even like my casters being able to blow peoples' minds with rainbows and summoning extravagant mansions out of nowhere because it's beneath them to use a tent.
I just wish everyone had something just as awesome as those things but in their own way.
You're exactly right, but why do we always talk about buffing martials, rather than considering the opposite solution? Why is the talk never about majorly nerfing or banning the casters instead?It may be a matter of personal preference, but for me is because I like the cool, high-powered things Pathfinder offers. I like my high level barbarian can get stabbed in the face and have the sword bounce off. I like my Bard being able to lie so well that reality seems to reshape itself. I even like my casters being able to blow peoples' minds with rainbows and summoning extravagant mansions out of nowhere because it's beneath them to use a tent.
I just wish everyone had something just as awesome as those things but in their own way.
I don't think there is any way for this to happen while maintaining genre verisimilitude (except for genres that assume that the martials are demigods or ki masters or something similar). There's a reason why wizards always occupy villainous or NPC-like roles in most of the great fantasy literature. Wizard should never have been a character class.
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I don't think there is any way for this to happen while maintaining genre verisimilitude (except for genres that assume that the martials are demigods or ki masters or something similar).
I disagree with you here. I see many of the "must haves" as coming close. The unarmed man effortless deflecting the giant monster and then swatting in the nose with old Crane Wing or the pouncing, nearly magic immune screaming man who breaks down walls of force with his face describe what I'm talking about in terms of "cool and high powered" quite nicely.
I'm saying other classes should have things like that too, but when that idea comes up it seems the phrase "weaboo fightin' magic" tends to come up (not saying from you, but in general).
I don't think it would be wrong for a high level Rogue to be able to literally steal the clothes off someone's back without anyone noticing, including those watching, or for a Fighter to be able to seemingly replicate acts of magic just through sheer skill and determination: "And then I hit him so hard in the face that he got knocked into some sort of extra-dimensional Maze!"... using Maze as a potential effect wasn't the best choice.
I don't think there is any way for this to happen while maintaining genre verisimilitude (except for genres that assume that the martials are demigods or ki masters or something similar).I disagree with you here. I see many of the "must haves" as coming close. The unarmed man effortless deflecting the giant monster and then swatting in the nose with old Crane Wing or the pouncing, nearly magic immune screaming man who breaks down walls of force with his face describe what I'm talking about in terms of "cool and high powered" quite nicely.
I'm saying other classes should have things like that too, but when that idea comes up it seems the phrase "weaboo fightin' magic" tends to come up (not saying from you, but in general).
I don't think it would be wrong for a high level Rogue to be able to literally steal the clothes off someone's back without anyone noticing, including those watching, or for a Fighter to be able to seemingly replicate acts of magic just through sheer skill and determination: "And then I hit him so hard in the face that he got knocked into some sort of extra-dimensional Maze!"... using Maze as a potential effect wasn't the best choice.
I get you. I still think you're going to have genre-compatibility issues, but even leaving that aside... You still have the problem we started out talking about. All the martial options that bridge the caster-martial divide become must haves and effectively neutralize the viability of all the options that came before that weren't trying to do this. All of which effectively means that you wind up having to basically rebuild most of the martial classes piecemeal, which is both laborious and potentially tacky (Isn't this basically what we're seeing happening with the Barbarian and the creation of things like the torc of stubborn resolve?). At the end of the day, limiting the casters is the more practical option. Then you can leave all the really far out martial craziness for mythic play.
You're exactly right, but why do we always talk about buffing martials, rather than considering the opposite solution? Why is the talk never about majorly nerfing or banning the casters instead?
Because parties could just play at lower levels.
It's not like martials get all that different depending on the level.You can nerf half casters options or just stretch the levels of the campaign to half the levels and you will achieve the same effect.
Making casters less fun does not magically make martials more fun.
Let's draw another example. Let's say Russia and the USA get rid of half their nukes. This doesn't make the UK's nukes less dangerous nor would it make North Korea's nukes more of a threat.
I see what you're saying, but at the same time I don't particularly see an issue with invalidating older content through "power creep" if the original content was sub-par... the issue with that is actually having enough options that are powerful instead of just having one end-all-be-all. And you're right, that is hard and less practical than what you are proposing.
Speaking of Mythic, it makes me sad that many usable options that any martial should have been able to benefit from will now never happen; looking at you Mythic Weapon Finesse.
Speaking of Mythic, it makes me sad that many usable options that any martial should have been able to benefit from will now never happen; looking at you Mythic Weapon Finesse.
On the other hand, the option actually exist now. So characters can get it with a willing GM.
Speaking of Mythic, it makes me sad that many usable options that any martial should have been able to benefit from will now never happen; looking at you Mythic Weapon Finesse.On the other hand, the option actually exist now. So characters can get it with a willing GM.
To be fair a player can get just about anything as a houserule if they have a receptive DM. The issue as I see it now is that most people will look at it and say "Nope you can't have that because it's strong enough to only be used in super high powered play." It being in Mythic essentially makes it sound like the devs think it's a game-breaking ability, and though they aren't DMing for you, many DMs tend to take their position by default.
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Speaking of Mythic, it makes me sad that many usable options that any martial should have been able to benefit from will now never happen; looking at you Mythic Weapon Finesse.
Actually...in discussions, it's been strongly implied we'll get exactly that as a Feat in the ACG. But it will only apply to a single weapon. Mythic Weapon Finesse will remain more, well, Mythic since it applies to all finesse-able weapons, while still not denying the option to non-Mythic characters. Similar situations are possible with other Mythic stuff.
Speaking of Mythic, it makes me sad that many usable options that any martial should have been able to benefit from will now never happen; looking at you Mythic Weapon Finesse.Actually...in discussions, it's been strongly implied we'll get exactly that as a Feat in the ACG. But it will only apply to a single weapon. Mythic Weapon Finesse will remain more, well, Mythic since it applies to all finesse-able weapons, while still not denying the option to non-Mythic characters. Similar situations are possible with other Mythic stuff.
Very interesting. I hope it happens and I get to be completely wrong here.
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A well built MT 10 fighter will wreck ANY non mythic level 20 caster.A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b%*%# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
Is that level 20 fighter with 10 mythic tiers? If so my money is on the non mythic caster. The fighter is getting his arse kicked. Don't let some fancy mythic label fool you.
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How exactly? Is there a mythic champion power that creates an antimagic field? Because without the support of his own mage, how exactly does any pure martial character do ANYTHING to a 20th level caster?A well built MT 10 fighter will wreck ANY non mythic level 20 caster.A character without mythic tiers should not be able to stand against an optimized tier 10 mythic anything.An yet, a 20th level non-mystic full-caster can make a mystic pretty-much-anything-except-another-caster his b%*%# with a spell or two.
Seriously, look at all the absurd stuff casters can do at high levels. You are saying Barbarians are overpowered because they have good saving throws... ¬¬'
hahaha. Champion is for un-optimized fighters. Guardian + mythic vital strike is the way to go.
Basically you are invincible, your ranged attack does like 120 damage and your melee is instant death. So you get within throwing range, mythic initiative and chop off 240 hp from the caster.
The caster has to go full batman mode to even begin to handle you and one mistake leads to them being dead.
If they are ever foolish enough to get within 30ft, they die.
** spoiler omitted **...
Not impressed. Caster will go first. He goes into timestop. Cast gate a few times. He can get a caster level of +24 at minimum to control being in a few CR 23 and higher monsters. They throw spells at the fighter who eventually rolls a 1. Game over. They can also sunder his gear or any other number of bad things. Actually he can cast maze and quicken gate and keep bringing in monsters until the fighter escapes maze. The fighter then has to bypass miss chance and mirror image assuming he can even get to the mage.
PS: I can guarantee at minimum an init of 30+ for the caster.
Barbarians are definitely tough. I think they are appropriate. They are beings of pure rage. They have disadvantages like not being to put much thought into combat. They can still be killed. You better be ready to fight them or they'll rip you apart. That's how it should be.
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They have very obvious best abilities. It would be nice if other abilities, such as the other totems, were buffed so that the barbarians had more exciting choices.
The Hive Totem line not ending with you being able to turn into a swarm of angry hornets was a huge missed opportunity.
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Oh...sorry..i forgot the rule that you cant have more than one totem. I don´t like pounce and make a defensive build so a don´t use bear totem.
That´s the build: Human Inv Barb 20
Str:17 Dex:10 Con:18 Int:13 Wis:12 Car:8 (dual talent +2str, +2Con)
Str:19 Dex:12 Con:19 Int:13 Wis:12 Car:8 (+2Str lv12-16, +2Dex lv4-8, +1Con lv20)
Str:25 Dex:18 Con:25 Int:13 Wis:18 Car:8 (Belt +6Str,Dex,Con, Headband +6Wis)
Str:30 Dex:20 Con:30 Int:13 Wis:18 Car:8 (Manual/tome +5Str, +2Dex, +5Con)
Feats:
1-Endurance
3-Diehard
5-Combat Expertise
7-Stalwart
9-Improved Stalwart
11-Combat Reflexes
13-Raging Brutality
15-Power Attack
17-Critical focus
19-Staggering Critical
Rage powers:
2-Superstition
4-Animal Fury
6-Intimidating glare
8-Dragon totem
10-Dragon Totem Resilience
12-Dragon Totem Wings
14-Unexpected Strike
16-Come and get me
18-Improved Damage reduction
Favorite class lv 1-2 +1hp lv 3-20 +1/3 superstition
Boots of speed
cloak res +5
Falchion +5 courageous furious keen
Hp:20d12+202 / Negative Hp:30
Saves For:+27 Ref:+16 Will:+15
vs Spell For:+42 Ref:+31 Will:+30
RD:17/- Cold Resistence:6
Fire Resistence:34
Attacks with haste: +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 and Bite +31
Damage: 2d4 +20 crit15-20x2 staggering
at Rage
Rage rounds:52
Str:41 Dex:20 Con:41 Int:13 Wis:18 Car:8 (Rage + weapon)
Hp:20d12+302 / Negative Hp:41
Saves For:+32 Ref:+16 Will:+19
vs Spell For:+50 Ref:+34 Will:+37
Attacks +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 and Bite +38
Damage: 2d4 +29 crit15-20x2 staggering and Bite 1d4+7
Power Attack + Improved Stalwart
RD:27/-
Attacks +32/+32/+27/+22/+17 and Bite +27
Damage: 2d4 +69 crit15-20x2 staggering and Bite 1d4+40
ps>you can improve with other magical items.
ps2> You can invest on UMD skill or spell storing ring if you have a caster on the party. That allow you to cast Form of Dragon III (+10Str +8Con).
Not impressed. Caster will go first. He goes into timestop. Cast gate a few times. He can get a caster level of +24 at minimum to control being in a few CR 23 and higher monsters. They throw spells at the fighter who eventually rolls a 1. Game over. They can also sunder his gear or any other number of bad things. Actually he can cast maze and quicken gate and keep bringing in monsters until the fighter escapes maze. The fighter then has to bypass miss chance and mirror image assuming he can even get to the mage.
PS: I can guarantee at minimum an init of 30+ for the caster.
Aside from limited wish/wish/miracle geas/quest casted at the fighter without a particular ion stone, nothing else was mentioned that could kill/make him lose.
Nat rolls of 1 don't effect him because he can just reroll the dice as needed.
Quickened gate? That doesn't sound legit.
Eventually your wizard will run out of spells and the money needed for gate. All you really succeeded in doing is maybe letting the fighter level from killing all those monsters.
The fighter might have to full-attack to break apart your images. Eventually though. He will get a lucky hit in and your wizard is dead.
Quickened gate comes from a Greater Rod of Quicken Spell. Insanely expensive, but not so much at level 20.
OK so less money for gating in monsters.
I wonder, how many creatures the fighter has to kill before the cosmos gets really pissed off and gibs the wizard for getting so many powerful outsiders killed?
Remember that the reroll is a swift action, unless you have something else
What ability are you talking about?
Mythic Resolve (Su): You're imbued with power and grace that protects you. Whenever you attempt a saving throw, you can expend one use of mythic power to roll again. You can use this ability more than once and take the highest result of all the rolls. You can use this ability only after the initial roll is made, but before the results are revealed. Using this ability doesn't require an action, and it can be used as long as you are conscious.
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I like this post, is like a rare post that appears time to time.
I like this post, is like a rare post that appears time to time.
I see it all the time.
Ok, so build the barbarian somebody build the wizard make the competition and end the debate.
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But it's generally not really that optimizers want to win and RPers don't (and before somebody accuses me of perpetuating the Stormwind Fallacy, let me say I'm aware of it and I'm not doing that, though in fact there is a grain of truth in that supposed "fallacy"). It's that optimizers want the pre-game character building phase to be a big part of what accounts for their success during game, whereas RP or aesthetically motivated players want it to play a very small part. They may want their build to determine how they win, but they don't want it to determine whether they do.So what you're saying is that these people who are exclusively RP minded (I specify exclusively, because I know a great many optimizers, myself included, whom I'd identify as primarily RP minded) who don't want the game to determine whether they win, but for the DM to do so instead?
That's what I'm hearing when I see 'they don't want their use of the rules to determine success' and I wanted to check in and confirm whether or not I understood correctly.
No, I don't think you did. There are two things going on here. First, yes, they want their use of the rules, as far as character building goes, to determine things other than success. Their goal for the character is not "be as powerful and effective as possible." It is "faithfully represent X concept." And those goals are often in conflict. It's not even that they don't want to be powerful or competent, but when you talk about real optimization you start to get into territory that precludes many valuable options, speaking strictly from the point of view of concept driven play.
Second, you can look at it as the difference between strategy and tactics. Building your character is, basically, strategic. You are planning ahead in order to be ready for every eventuality. The problem is that optimized characters can be so good that (assuming you're using APs or published material, and especially in the context of organized play where the GM cannot adapt to your build) they essentially negate all possibility or necessity of tactical acumen. They just trundle through their pre-programmed shctick and destroy encounters. This is very unsatisfying to people who enjoy thinking more tactically. It's basically Combat as War vs. Combat as Sport. The last thing the War side wants is to ever have a "fair fight." But that is the only thing the Sport side wants.
And again, I am not saying that there's RP and there's optimization, and never the twain shall meet. Optimizers can indeed be great roleplayers, of course. But I do believe there are several points where the two things come into opposition, and one or the other must win out. So far as those areas are concerned, the Stormwind fallacy is no fallacy at all.
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You're exactly right, but why do we always talk about buffing martials, rather than considering the opposite solution? Why is the talk never about majorly nerfing or banning the casters instead?Except that if we all start thinking this way, each class will effectively have only a small handful of options. That sounds really boring to me. That's why many people prefer to nerf or ban the really attractive/powerful options. You want most or all of the choices to feel valid, at least when measured against one another. Otherwise you wind up rewarding optimizers, while effectively punishing people who choose their builds based on aesthetic or RP motivations.That pretty much leads back to the much talked about martial-magic disparity; the good "must have" martial options work to lessen that gap, but then are seen as "too good" compared to the other martial options that make people talk about the disparity in the first place.
I think Ogrebattle has a point. Instead of making Beast Totem garbage, let's look at the other options and make them viable enough to be used without making a deliberate choice to be sub-par. For example, the Hive Totem line. Wow, that's terrible. Options like that should be made so that they are powerful in their own way; if there were more good options you would see less cookie cutter builds.
Exceot high level encounters become damn near impossible... Have you tried to play a high level game without casters? That straight SUCKS hard...
Not impressed. Caster will go first. He goes into timestop. Cast gate a few times. He can get a caster level of +24 at minimum to control being in a few CR 23 and higher monsters. They throw spells at the fighter who eventually rolls a 1. Game over. They can also sunder his gear or any other number of bad things. Actually he can cast maze and quicken gate and keep bringing in monsters until the fighter escapes maze. The fighter then has to bypass miss chance and mirror image assuming he can even get to the mage.
PS: I can guarantee at minimum an init of 30+ for the caster.
Aside from limited wish/wish/miracle geas/quest casted at the fighter without a particular ion stone, nothing else was mentioned that could kill/make him lose.
Nat rolls of 1 don't effect him because he can just reroll the dice as needed.
Quickened gate? That doesn't sound legit.
Eventually your wizard will run out of spells and the money needed for gate. All you really succeeded in doing is maybe letting the fighter level from killing all those monsters.
The fighter might have to full-attack to break apart your images. Eventually though. He will get a lucky hit in and your wizard is dead.
Time Stop
FlySummon Monster 9 x(how ever many rounds) to summon Nalfeshnee.
Make Nalfeshnee cast Greater Dispel Magic on Fighter's Boots of Flying.
Cast anything that requires a will save. Yes, the fighter can re-roll a fail. But he can only do that once.
Not impressed. Caster will go first. He goes into timestop. Cast gate a few times. He can get a caster level of +24 at minimum to control being in a few CR 23 and higher monsters. They throw spells at the fighter who eventually rolls a 1. Game over. They can also sunder his gear or any other number of bad things. Actually he can cast maze and quicken gate and keep bringing in monsters until the fighter escapes maze. The fighter then has to bypass miss chance and mirror image assuming he can even get to the mage.
PS: I can guarantee at minimum an init of 30+ for the caster.
Aside from limited wish/wish/miracle geas/quest casted at the fighter without a particular ion stone, nothing else was mentioned that could kill/make him lose.
Nat rolls of 1 don't effect him because he can just reroll the dice as needed.
Quickened gate? That doesn't sound legit.
Eventually your wizard will run out of spells and the money needed for gate. All you really succeeded in doing is maybe letting the fighter level from killing all those monsters.
The fighter might have to full-attack to break apart your images. Eventually though. He will get a lucky hit in and your wizard is dead.
Time Stop
Fly
Summon Monster 9 x(how ever many rounds) to summon Nalfeshnee.
Make Nalfeshnee cast Greater Dispel Magic on Fighter's Boots of Flying.
Cast anything that requires a will save. Yes, the fighter can re-roll a fail. But he can only do that once.
Potions of air walk. Fly isn't really usable. (you can't hover!)
Or go to a cramped space and use throwing weapons/melee.Mythic resolve, improved iron will, adamantine mind. Will is his strongest save.
Not impressed. Caster will go first. He goes into timestop. Cast gate a few times. He can get a caster level of +24 at minimum to control being in a few CR 23 and higher monsters. They throw spells at the fighter who eventually rolls a 1. Game over. They can also sunder his gear or any other number of bad things. Actually he can cast maze and quicken gate and keep bringing in monsters until the fighter escapes maze. The fighter then has to bypass miss chance and mirror image assuming he can even get to the mage.
PS: I can guarantee at minimum an init of 30+ for the caster.
Aside from limited wish/wish/miracle geas/quest casted at the fighter without a particular ion stone, nothing else was mentioned that could kill/make him lose.
Nat rolls of 1 don't effect him because he can just reroll the dice as needed.
Quickened gate? That doesn't sound legit.
Eventually your wizard will run out of spells and the money needed for gate. All you really succeeded in doing is maybe letting the fighter level from killing all those monsters.
The fighter might have to full-attack to break apart your images. Eventually though. He will get a lucky hit in and your wizard is dead.
Time Stop
Fly
Summon Monster 9 x(how ever many rounds) to summon Nalfeshnee.
Make Nalfeshnee cast Greater Dispel Magic on Fighter's Boots of Flying.
Cast anything that requires a will save. Yes, the fighter can re-roll a fail. But he can only do that once.Potions of air walk. Fly isn't really usable. (you can't hover!)
Or go to a cramped space and use throwing weapons/melee.Mythic resolve, improved iron will, adamantine mind. Will is his strongest save.
If your in a cramped space then you use Stone Shape or Prismatic wall. Make a box around the fighter. If you are outdoors and the fighter runs into a cramped space you don't go chasing after him. Drop the entrance to the cramped space. Or just send a wall of summons at him.
Oh and this is just a regular wizard. Add in mythic spells and feats? The fighter has no hope... At level 20 a fighter just can't stand up to a level 20 wizard...
When in doubt, you can always teleport away and catch the fighter when he is not prepared.
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Just wanted to add a few thoughts: Basically, kyrt, I've noticed that people seem to approach character building in two distinctly different ways. Many people look through all their options trying to determine which things are the absolute best and most optimal. But others look through their options with an eye only toward finding those things that interestingly recreate whatever aesthetic or RP thing they're going for, then after they've narrowed the field in this way, they start to think about optimization.
These two character building styles can annoy each other. For instance, let's say I'm trying to create a Western style, magical-girl, chosen-one concept, a la Neo/Jack Frost by way of Thorn from the Bone comics. So I'm thinking to myself ok, so what do I need? Thorn's a farm girl/scout type. She isn't really combat trained per se, but has picked up a few things, and most importantly has the blood of heroes. She has a knack for wilderness skills and a sensitivity to the spirit world, with minor intermittent precognitive abilities. She's basically not extremely effective in combat most of the time, but has bursts of super-effectiveness and seemingly randomly manifesting additional supernatural powers as the situation dictates. Well, now I have an odd laundry list of powers and abilities to simulate, don't I? So I comb the books and find out how to do all of these things in one character, and only then do I worry about making sure her attack bonus and AC are adequate, and that sort of thing.
So maybe I wind up being a Paladin/Ninja/Spirit Ranger, or whatever. Cool. So now I get to game and I've run up the side of the platform and I'm trying to hold down the alchemist so he can't throw bombs at the rest of the party below, and the optimizer is yelling "just turn invisible and sneak attack him already, you're a ninja!" and I reply "I don't have vanishing trick..." Stunned silence.
See, basically I don't build characters to fulfill a certain role, or anyway that's a secondary goal. I build them to be able to do whatever it is they were doing in their lives before they got involved with this story. So now they have this set of abilities that was geared towards doing X, and I have to find ways to make those skill sets useful in these encounters I now find myself in. To me, that's interesting. Optimizers act like every character is a sort of navy seal of dungeon delving, a perfectly trained machine. To me, that is less interesting. To be fair though, the optimizers are just as annoyed at my characters' inability to fit into their scheme of what a finely tuned adventuring party should be.
And by the way, before somebody accuses me of it, no, this does not mean I make weak characters that get everybody killed because they're not up to CR par. My characters usually still end up being more powerful and competent than the APs demand. But are they sub-optimal? You bet your ass they are.
Exceot high level encounters become damn near impossible... Have you tried to play a high level game without casters? That straight SUCKS hard...
It is true that I basically view the game as ending at around 12th level.
It is true that I basically view the game as ending at around 12th level.
Exceot high level encounters become damn near impossible... Have you tried to play a high level game without casters? That straight SUCKS hard...
Pretty much, beyond level 12 things get pretty wonky.
Do you think that 1/3rd of a game being unplayable is a problem?
It is true that I basically view the game as ending at around 12th level.
I think it's a very big problem.
EDIT: Well, it's a big problem on a theoretical level. PFS already basically ends at 11th (hmm, look at that), and in home games of course I just don't have to run anything above that.
EDIT II: And again it's worth noting that by far the main, if not the only thing making the game unplayable at those levels is arcane magic. Once 6th and certainly 7th level spells come on line, forget about it. I'm out.
If your in a cramped space then you use Stone Shape or Prismatic wall. Make a box around the fighter. If you are outdoors and the fighter runs into a cramped space you don't go chasing after him. Drop the entrance to the cramped space. Or just send a wall of summons at him.
Oh and this is just a regular wizard. Add in mythic spells and feats? The fighter has no hope... At level 20 a fighter just can't stand up to a level 20 wizard...
When in doubt, you can always teleport away and catch the fighter when he is not prepared.
None of this kills the fighter. At most the wizard can delay his death. This particular fighter is ageless and requires no food, air, water, or sleep to live. Delaying tactics just won't work. Eventually the wizard will die.
And we are comparing a MT 10 lvl 20 fighter to a lvl 20 non-mythic wizard. I made no claims about anything else.
But others look through their options with an eye only toward finding those things that interestingly recreate whatever aesthetic or RP thing they're going for, then after they've narrowed the field in this way, they start to think about optimization.
the optimizer is yelling "just turn invisible and sneak attack him already, you're a ninja!" and I reply "I don't have vanishing trick..." Stunned silence.
How do you RP yourself in such a box that vanishing trick doesn't fit with ninja?
You deny it, but nothing about these post is anything but stormwind fallacy.
Can you elaborate on the reason those spell levels push you out of interest in the game Erick?
Markthus and some of the others here can probably tell you better than I can. Ever since I checked out and decided the game ends at 12th, I kind of stopped following it. But you can see a few good instances on this thread of the kinds of crazy spell combos that make me lose interest. Just the other day somebody was talking to me about some kind of combo involving this blood magic spell from Rise of the Runelords that lets you make infinite simulacrums. Etc, etc. Like I said, I stopped cataloging them quite a while ago.
How do you RP yourself in such a box that vanishing trick doesn't fit with ninja?
A couple of things here. First, my Ninjas aren't usually "ninjas" and second it's not that vanishing trick didn't fit so much as that I didn't have room to buy it once I was done taking the stuff I needed for my concept.
And no, it's not Stormwind, and again, Stormwind is in some cases not actually a fallacy. It's just oversimplified. It's a fallacy only if you view it as necessarily applying to every instance.
Can you elaborate on the reason those spell levels push you out of interest in the game Erick?Markthus and some of the others here can probably tell you better than I can. Ever since I checked out and decided the game ends at 12th, I kind of stopped following it. But you can see a few good instances on this thread of the kinds of crazy spell combos that make me lose interest. Just the other day somebody was talking to me about some kind of combo involving this blood magic spell from Rise of the Runelords that lets you make infinite simulacrums. Etc, etc. Like I said, I stopped cataloging them quite a while ago.
For me that was what make my interest for the game. Is what you can build or discover. What make unique chars, good NPCs and a big history