OK I'm just going to say it. Barbarians are unbalanced.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Superstitious gives a +6 to saves human favored class bonus raises that to +12.

Beast totem gives pounce AND ac to make up for a lack of heavy armor, OR you can use reckless abandon to trade out that free AC for MORE to-hit.

With invulnerable Rager you can trade out some relatively useless anti-rogue defenses for crazy amount of DR /-.

I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that than just adding a +6-12 to all d20 rolls.


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Marthkus wrote:

Superstitious gives a +6 to saves human favored class bonus raises that to +12.

Beast totem gives pounce AND ac to make up for a lack of heavy armor, OR you can use reckless abandon to trade out that free AC for MORE to-hit.

With invulnerable Rager you can trade out some relatively useless anti-rogue defenses for crazy amount of DR /-.

I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that than just adding a +6-12 to all d20 rolls.

Technically, every class is unbalanced, its just a matter of degrees. Personally, I'm fine with it but I don't worship at the altar of 'balance at all costs'. If the player and the party is having fun, you win - and I've never seen anyone's fun increased through nerfs. FWIW, I think Paladins, Rangers and Bards are pretty evenly balanced with one another.

As an aside, for added fon to your Invulnerable Rager, add a level of Unbreakable Fighter and a level of Living Monolith. Good times.


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They can have strong defences, deal respectable damage and have a modest number of skill points. If skills actually did more useful things they might be somewhere sort of near a reasonable benchmark for martial characters. Still nowhere near the versatility or power of an actual spell casting class.


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Barbarians unbalanced? They can fall into a psychotic rage if someone looks at them funny, unbalanced is too polite for the type of batpoop crazy exhibited by barbarians.

Ipslore has it right, barbarians are in line with the power of Alchemists, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Gunslingers, Inquisitors, Oracles, Paladins, Rangers, Socerers & Wizards while being overpowered compared Cavaliers, Fighters, Monks & Rogues.

Sczarni

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Just because the Barbarian is all "ERMERGERD SMERSH AND STERFF!!", even with all of his extra hit/saves, by no means makes him incredible.

Every class has it's weaknesses, and a good GM should challenge those weaknesses fairly often.


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Marthkus wrote:
I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that than just adding a +6-12 to all d20 rolls.

No, it doesn't. Even a pouncing spell-sundering Barbarian has nothing even close to the versatility of classes capable of stuff such as flying, teleporting, reading minds, summoning monsters (sometimes with permanent duration), divination, healing and resurrecting allies, creating walls, decelerating time, among other tricks, while still having all sorts of options for combat.

Barbarians are still far less versatile than Bards, Inquisitors and Magi, for example. They hit hard, make saves, resist damage, move and remain effective, (things every martial class should be able to do!) and they "dispel" magic. That's all. It's a good selection of tricks, but not overpowered in anyway, unless you're comparing them to classes that are completely one-dimensional (such as Fighters) and/or not particularly good at what they do (Such as Rogues).

Barbarians are one of the very few martial classes that actually work. The other ones being Paladin and, to a lesser extent, Ranger.


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Lemmy wrote:
Barbarians are one of the very few martial classes that actually work.

But the way they work is SO dumb.

"hurr durr +12 more to my d20 roll"

Liberty's Edge

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First Paladins, now Barbarians. Are Martials suddenly not allowed to have nice things by the fandom even when Paizo gives them some?

More seriously, any Superstition Barbarian has this unfortunate problem where they cannot be healed by spells while raging and if they stop raging without getting healed when they need healing, they're likely to die. There are ways around this...but they're not as easy as all that. They also have less utility options than, well, any 6 or 9 level caster class or those with more skill points (which is around 3/4 of existing classes).

I love Barbarians, and they are very good at hitting things until they die...probably better than anyone else vs. non-Evil targets (they fall behind Paladins vs. Evil stuff), but that's all that they're the best at. Let them have the win.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

First Paladins, now Barbarians. Are Martials suddenly not allowed to have nice things by the fandom even when Paizo gives them some?

More seriously, any Superstition Barbarian has this unfortunate problem where they cannot be healed by spells while raging and if they stop raging without getting healed when they need healing, they're likely to die. There are ways around this...but they're not as easy as all that. They also have less utility options than, well, any 6 or 9 level caster class or those with more skill points (which is around 3/4 of existing classes).

I love Barbarians, and they are very good at hitting things until they die...probably better than anyone else vs. non-Evil targets (they fall behind Paladins vs. Evil stuff), but that's all that they're the best at. Let them have the win.

Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Liberty's Edge

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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Barbarians are one of the very few martial classes that actually work.

But the way they work is SO dumb.

"hurr durr +12 more to my d20 roll"

Uh...how else is a martial class supposed to work? I mean...what do you want here?

They have Rage Powers that aren't just flat numerical bonuses and are still widely regarded as stellar (Spell Sunder and Greater Beast Totem come to mind, along with the Celestial Totem Rage Power line)...but flat bonuses are also needed to keep up with the spells available to spellcasters as they level.


The wild rager has combat abilities that arent exactly +x to D20 rolls. sort of.


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Barbarians are one of the very few martial classes that actually work.

But the way they work is SO dumb.

"hurr durr +12 more to my d20 roll"

You mean, the same way every other class works?

What's the alternative to getting bonus to saving throws for a non caster class? Getting immunities? How is that any less dumb?

Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Also, what make Barbarians work is the fact that they have a decent number of skill points, good mobility and cool abilities such as Spell Sunder, No Escape and Knock Down. If all they had was bigger damage numbers and AC, they would be like Fighters, and they would suck.


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It just dawned on me, i have seen this conversation before. It was in the Swashbuckler discussion thread but i dimly recall seeing it in other martial threads too. They tried to do this cool thing with potentially exploding extra dice rolls but the crowd came back with "thats dumb compared to a static bonus" and then there were a bunch of ideas floating around about things other than bonuses you could use to boost their combat options... no one seemed to like that over the static stuff though.

Liberty's Edge

Marthkus wrote:
Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Heal doesn't. Nor condition removal spells if those are relevant. And the very best actual Cure spell only heals a maximum of 52 HP, 26 on a Save. Any high level Barbarian worth his salt has at least double that from Rage.

I never said it wasn't doable, just an annoying difficulty to overcome.


Lemmy wrote:
Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Perhaps. It seems like all the barbar has to do is rage-pounce and nothing can stop him without killing the whole party. And party couldn't even buff the barbar should he get in trouble. They just get to watch "Hulk smash!"

The paladin actually requires thought and player input to run. Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Heal doesn't. Nor condition removal spells if those are relevant. And the very best actual Cure spell only heals a maximum of 52 HP, 26 on a Save. Any high level Barbarian worth his salt has at least double that from Rage.

I never said it wasn't doable, just an annoying difficulty to overcome.

You do it post combat and spam the spells.


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Perhaps. It seems like all the barbar has to do is rage-pounce and nothing can stop him without killing the whole party. And party couldn't even buff the barbar should he get in trouble. They just get to watch "Hulk smash!"

The paladin actually requires thought and player input to run. Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.

Just because the barbian is simple doesnt make it unbalanced. In fact it is working precisely the way it is supposed to do. Its a barbarian. Rage pounce is precisely what it is supposed to do. It isnt supposed to have complicated strategic options, its a friggan barbarian. No one says, "I want to play a careful tactician with a strong moral center...hmmm barbarian should be a good choice for my class....". Hulk smash is EXACTLY the thing they are thinking of. The class does that, does it well, and does it unapologetically. This is an example of a martial class that works as intended without any clever manipulations of the rules required.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Perhaps. It seems like all the barbar has to do is rage-pounce and nothing can stop him without killing the whole party. And party couldn't even buff the barbar should he get in trouble. They just get to watch "Hulk smash!"

The paladin actually requires thought and player input to run. Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.

Just because the barbian is simple doesnt make it unbalanced. In fact it is working precisely the way it is supposed to do. Its a barbarian. Rage pounce is precisely what it is supposed to do. It isnt supposed to have complicated strategic options, its a friggan barbarian. No one says, "I want to play a careful tactician with a strong moral center...hmmm barbarian should be a good choice for my class....". Hulk smash is EXACTLY the thing they are thinking of. The class does that, does it well, and does it unapologetically. This is an example of a martial class that works as intended without any clever manipulations of the rules required.

Conan


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Conan is fighter/thief, not barbarian (even if he served as an inspiration for the class waaay back).


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Perhaps. It seems like all the barbar has to do is rage-pounce and nothing can stop him without killing the whole party. And party couldn't even buff the barbar should he get in trouble. They just get to watch "Hulk smash!"

The paladin actually requires thought and player input to run. Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.

Dunno about that... Barbarians can at least use tactics that involve moving 10ft. Having 4 skill points is enough to give him some out-ofcombat presence (not much, but some) and Spell Sunder actually adds a great deal of versatility to the class (which is why I classify spell-sundering Barbarians as tier 3).

Fighters make better switch-hitters and have easier access to maneuvers, but a Barbarian who decides to use maneuvers is likely to be better at them, thanks to Strength Surge. Also, Knockback and Knockdown save him the need of getting Combat Expertise.

That said, I'd love to see Barbarians getting more Rage Powers that allow them to do cool stuff instead of just raising numbers. Same goes for Fighters and feats.

Dark Archive

The Superstitious bonus is wrong. What Barbarian doesn't own a courageous furious weapon? And Superstitious grants a morale bonus ...


Marthkus wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Besides, that doesn't make them unbalanced, just uninspired.

Perhaps. It seems like all the barbar has to do is rage-pounce and nothing can stop him without killing the whole party. And party couldn't even buff the barbar should he get in trouble. They just get to watch "Hulk smash!"

The paladin actually requires thought and player input to run. Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.

Just because the barbian is simple doesnt make it unbalanced. In fact it is working precisely the way it is supposed to do. Its a barbarian. Rage pounce is precisely what it is supposed to do. It isnt supposed to have complicated strategic options, its a friggan barbarian. No one says, "I want to play a careful tactician with a strong moral center...hmmm barbarian should be a good choice for my class....". Hulk smash is EXACTLY the thing they are thinking of. The class does that, does it well, and does it unapologetically. This is an example of a martial class that works as intended without any clever manipulations of the rules required.
Conan

Bran Mak Morn, Turlogh Dubh, Kull, Starkad Thuridson,... and I wish I were any one of them... *sniff*


Lemmy wrote:
Barbarian who decides to use maneuvers is likely to be better at them, thanks to Strength Surge.

Strength surge is just another example. Oh look I want to do a maneuver. Well let's just add an additional +20 to the check! hurr durr

There is having a bonus and then there is having stupid levels of bonuses.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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They don't have to be. Barbarians can put ranks in Acrobatics like everyone else.

Spoiler:

Surface Width Base Acrobatics DC

Greater than 3 feet wide 0*
1–3 feet wide 5*
7–11 inches wide 10
2–6 inches wide 15
Less than 2 inches wide 20


/snark.

Seriously though, yes they can get some nice bonuses. So can fighters, paladins, and rangers. The best barbarian might out-dpr or out-defense the best fighter, but since I can still build a fighter that solos a CR-appropriate critter in 1 round, so what?

Liberty's Edge

Barbarian is actually really bad. It has a few very powerful options but as a whole, it's far weaker than most of the martial options around these days. Rage is just a weak mechanic.

Look at this way, without those options would you ever play a barbarian?


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doesn't have Superstitious

doesn't use Beast Totems

doesn't rage-pounce

doesn't just Hulk Smash

sure as hell doesn't use Wild Rager

maxed Diplomacy

having a ball


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Dont mock the dreaded cry of "hurr durr" it was the last sound heard by many a calculating and evil creature.

Dark Archive

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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Barbarian who decides to use maneuvers is likely to be better at them, thanks to Strength Surge.

Strength surge is just another example. Oh look I want to do a maneuver. Well let's just add an additional +20 to the check! hurr durr

There is having a bonus and then there is having stupid levels of bonuses.

Considering what casters can do when the barbarians bonuses get that high, I'd say that they are pretty balanced. +20 on a CMB roll is a 1st level spell.

It's not that barbarians are too strong, it's just that fighters, monks and especially rogues are too weak.


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Barbarian who decides to use maneuvers is likely to be better at them, thanks to Strength Surge.

Strength surge is just another example. Oh look I want to do a maneuver. Well let's just add an additional +20 to the check! hurr durr

There is having a bonus and then there is having stupid levels of bonuses.

Well, considering CMB itself is just a numerical bonus, and the unreasonably fast rate at which CMD scales, I don't see any alternatives. Maneuvers are weak as they are. There should be more ways to increase CMB, not less.

And hey, look at Fighters... All their class features are about raising numbers. All of them. Even combat feats in general (especially Fighter-exclusive feats) are about getting a +1 to this or that 90% of the time. does that make Fighters overpowered?

Martials should have amazing combat-related bonuses. That's the whole point of those classes, being amazing in combat.


Pounce is just wrong. Most of the rest is alright.


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There's a general pity for martial classes on these forums. I don't personally think they're "underpowered", though perhaps Barbarians may not optimize as well as some other classes. In comparison to the other classes, with the use of just the Core Rules, they're just fine.

The forums here have a tendency towards an assumption that massive optimization is the standard approach. For many players, it is, but trust me, not everyone is pulling together every single rulebook (from Paizo and from third-party publishers) and cobbling together massive 1-20 builds for Frankenstein's monster characters just so they can bulldoze things.

Barbarians have a massive amount of damage output, which they should. Like many other martial characters, they have weak Will saves, and are typically quite susceptible to magic. Control their environment, or control them, and they're quite capable of being dealt with.


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Majuba wrote:
Pounce is just wrong. Most of the rest is alright.

What's wrong is that Barbarians are the only martial class that get Pounce. (At 10th level. After investing 3 Rage Powers. Meanwhile, Druids get it for free at 6th level and Summoners at 1st level for a single evolution point).

Martial classes losing 90% of their effectiveness because they dared to move 10ft is one of the biggest flaws with the system.


Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Barbarian who decides to use maneuvers is likely to be better at them, thanks to Strength Surge.

Strength surge is just another example. Oh look I want to do a maneuver. Well let's just add an additional +20 to the check! hurr durr

There is having a bonus and then there is having stupid levels of bonuses.

Quickened truestike HOOOOO!


Jadeite wrote:
The Superstitious bonus is wrong. What Barbarian doesn't own a courageous furious weapon? And Superstitious grants a morale bonus ...

Oh good, now it's +15 before adding base saves and ability scores and cloak of resistance

12/6 + 15 + 5 +3-5

Estimate

+37 fort
+31 reflex
+29 will (rage bonus and superstitious don't stack!)

Mythic 9th level spell super tweaked DC
10+9+18+2*2 = 41

Passes on 4 or better on fort, 10 or better on reflex, and 12 or better on will.

That's mundane dude vs a demi-god with spell perfection on a 9th level spell.

Silver Crusade

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Something that needs to be said for the barbarian is that it doesn't need as much work to bring up to snuff. Seriously, playing barbarian has been deeply enjoyable because I could just relax and branch out in certain areas without worrying about keeping him up to par.

Compared to the monk and rogue, it feels much easier to make a barbarian match the flavor I'm looking for. Paladins are much the same way.


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"Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"

Really, Marthkus, what alternative do you propose? That Barbarians have the same pathetic saves as Fighters and Rogues? Isn't it enough to have 2 classes easily failing saving throws caused by a casters4 levels below them?

Silver Crusade

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Lemmy wrote:
What's wrong is that Barbarians are the only martial class that get Pounce. (At 10th level.

Oh to have that available to monks...


Lemmy wrote:
"Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"

Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?


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Marthkus wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Heal doesn't. Nor condition removal spells if those are relevant. And the very best actual Cure spell only heals a maximum of 52 HP, 26 on a Save. Any high level Barbarian worth his salt has at least double that from Rage.

I never said it wasn't doable, just an annoying difficulty to overcome.

You do it post combat and spam the spells.

Which is still an annoying difficulty to overcome, as you are unable to be efficiently healed during combat. It's not as if you're gonna be raging afterwards, anyways.

Marthkus wrote:
Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?

Because 20th level PCs should be able to do that sometimes?

Mikaze wrote:
Something that needs to be said for the barbarian is that it doesn't need as much work to bring up to snuff. Seriously, playing barbarian has been deeply enjoyable because I could just relax and branch out in certain areas without worrying about keeping him up to par.

This. Not every character should have to focus on system mastery to be effective.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Heal doesn't. Nor condition removal spells if those are relevant. And the very best actual Cure spell only heals a maximum of 52 HP, 26 on a Save. Any high level Barbarian worth his salt has at least double that from Rage.

I never said it wasn't doable, just an annoying difficulty to overcome.

You do it post combat and spam the spells.
Which is still an annoying difficulty to overcome, as you are unable to be efficiently healed during combat. It's not as if you're gonna be raging afterwards, anyways.

This--we had a superstitious barbarian in Rise of the Runelords for Parts 5 and 6. The player of the Mystic Theurge first thought the barbarian was OP, but he said after playing all the way through that the penalty of losing in-combat spells was massive. Flat-out negating the heal spell is big when those are flying around to every other character (with Reach Spell and the like). That superstitious barbarian died in something like every major battle. Did he do amazing things? Absolutely. Spell Sunder was huge several times, his saves were unassailable, and his full attack damage was better than the fighter when he used Raging Brutality (though the fighter's staggering criticals and dazing assault were a sight to see).


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Cure spells with a successful save still heal for half hit points.

Heal doesn't. Nor condition removal spells if those are relevant. And the very best actual Cure spell only heals a maximum of 52 HP, 26 on a Save. Any high level Barbarian worth his salt has at least double that from Rage.

I never said it wasn't doable, just an annoying difficulty to overcome.

You do it post combat and spam the spells.
Which is still an annoying difficulty to overcome, as you are unable to be efficiently healed during combat. It's not as if you're gonna be raging afterwards, anyways.

Why wouldn't I rage afterwards like a Sith Lord if that was what was keeping me alive!?


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
"Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"
Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?

Because resisting magic and dealing damage is the class' main strengths. He doesn't get to bend reality to his will in the way any caster can. He doesn't get to e good in social situations. No, he gets to deal damage and resist magic.

Are you honestly telling me that having a good will save is more powerful than spell-casting? Because if you're worried about game balance, your priorities make no sense.

The better question would be... Why is a [any caster class] capable of doing stuff usually reserved to un-stated Gods? Including, but not limited to, having saving DC that are all but impossible to defeat except by optimized characters with ideal selection of race, favored class bonus and gear?

A Kitsune Fey Sorcerer (which should be the standard caster, if your standard Barbarian is human with superstition and raging weapons and whatever else) can easily reach DC 42 for enchantment spells.


Can superstitious barbarian drink a potion of healing?

Are there any non-magical methods of healing?


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Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
"Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"
Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?

Why should spellcasters always succeed? So one class, one, has a chance to not get railed hard by the 20th level Mythic 10 caster. You'll be glad you have the barbarian in your party when they're the only one that can survive the magic to bring the caster down. And you'll also be happy when he can sunder the domination magic off of you.


Lemmy wrote:
The better question would be... Why is a [any caster class] capable of doing stuff usually reserved to un-stated Gods? Including, but not limited to, having saving DC that are all but impossible to defeat except by optimized characters with ideal selection of race, favored class bonus and gear?

It's a mythic 10 spellcaster that started our with a 20 in it's casting stat, has full inherent bonus to it, and took spell perfection, spell focus, and greater spell focus for ONE 9th level spell.

There shouldn't be a non mythic level 20 character that could resist such a spell.


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Claxon wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
"Oh, no! A 20th level Barbarian has a good will save! How will I, a 20th level full caster, deal with this threat? It's not like I have any option other than directly targeting enemies with a SoL effect!"
Why is a barbar capable of resisting the highest possible DC from creatures that are not un-stated Gods?
Why should spellcasters always succeed? So one class, one, has a chance to not get railed hard by the 20th level Mythic 10 caster. You'll be glad you have the barbarian in your party when they're the only one that can survive the magic to bring the caster down. And you'll also be happy when he can sunder the domination magic off of you.

After one fight, the barbarian retreated with pretty much everybody else polymorphed into a fish or turned to stone. He was also in death mode, so he had to keep raging, down some potions for half healing, and finally fall unconscious. Fortunately the enemy has a psychosis that causes him to generally ignore opponents that leave him be, so the barbarian was able to rest, heal up, and then spell sunder all the fish with his bare hands (but he couldn't recognize which were which, so he wound up freeing some other things too...oops!)

All in all, it was a hilarious tale for us to tell and a lot of fun to be had, and the barbarian got to be the big damn hero.

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