Keeping the dungeon denizens moving around should help dissuade the PCs from taking 20 for each 5 foot step along a corridor - encourage them to take 10 instead, which doesn't take any extra time other than a single search check. Also keep in mind that when their slowness leads to wandering monster encounters, those fights make noise that keyed room encounters might react to.
Also, taking 20 isn't appropriate for perception checks to deal with ambushes, foiling stealth, or detecting enemies. The presumption is that you fail or at least get worst results before you achieve that 20. And the only way to fail to detect an ambush is to be ambushed...
That said, if they have unlimited time, taking 20 in searches for traps and secret doors is perfectly fine and within the rules. It doesn't mean they'll auto-succeed - just that they'll get the best results they can get (which still might be below the DC of the hidden thing).
|
If there's no penalty for failure, taking a 20 is fine. Searching for traps, listening, all are included. Now that doesn't mean there isn't a consequence for taking 2 minutes, and you're correct that in a living dungeon, wasting time by meticulously combing every 5x5' section is likely to get noticed. Also remember that while the party is taking the time to listen at doors, the enemy has a chance to hear them. They might also notice any light sources if the area is normally dark.
If you have random monster tables, you may wish to double the chances or the like if the party is poking around so slowly.
In other cases, if you're in a room and you know treasure will be found, ignore the DC 20 search and just give it to them (you take a few minutes and find a stash of coins stuffed between the mattress). It's an exercise in futility to make them go 5x5' in that situation.
I tell my players they're always considered to be "taking 10" in a hostile setting like a dungeon to notice things. If there's a situation where they might be hurt, I allow a roll (pending ambush, about to step on a trap). When players know that they're always on the lookout for trouble, it lessens the problem.
Finally, you can roleplay the monotony. "You take a 20..." Pause 10 seconds, "You find nothing." Next square..."you look..." Pause another 10 seconds "You find nothing." A little passive aggressive for my tastes, but can be done. Best practice would be to let the party know they're always on the lookout as above and the "taking 20" on every square is not realistic roleplay. It's strategic "gameplay," but paranoid roleplay.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would definitely not recommend making the players wait the time out in real time. The whole point of taking 10 and 20 is so that the players can get the results they want without taking up too much game time by rerolling again and again until their rolls don't suck.
Maybe consider doing it once so that they have a context "You really want to spend 2 minutes checking every 5 feet of dungeon corridor? OK, here's what it's like trying to go 5 feet... <time 120 seconds>... now think of how much time that gives the monsters to find you. Mwah hah hah!"
But really, doing it every time to discourage the tactic? I'd probably have to murder my GM if he did that to us.
I would say taking 20 to search for traps is a bad idea. If you fail to find it there is a chance you will set it off so you can always shoot that one down if you want.
|
You want reasons that they shouldn't do this?
For one, if there's a consequence for failure, they shouldnt' be allowed to do it, because the assumption of taking 20 is that you're going to keep at it until you succeed. Sometimes you can't do that. If you don't find the trap the first time, it's going to trigger. If you don't spot the ambush on your first check, you get ambushed.
And for another, it's more tedium than it's worth. If you want your players to understand this, here's my suggestion: have a fairly large section of dungeon with NOTHING HIDDEN IN IT. Taking 20 will get them nothing more than a reiteration of your initial description of the room. Eventually, your players will get the hint that it's just not worth it to take 20 every 5 feet, because most squares aren't trapped.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Malek, if the PCs are taking their time searching, the bad guys will absolutely use that time to stage a counterattack. Think of it this way: A burglar breaks into your house. You hear the noise of the door being kicked in. That burglar now spends a lot of time searching your living room for safes hidden in the walls, for books with their insides hollowed out, and searching your sofa for spare change.
Meanwhile, you were in your bedroom. Maybe you have a phone and can call the police. Maybe you grab a weapon and find a spot to ambush the guy as he comes around a corner. Maybe you send your dog to attack while you sneak around the outside of the house and come up behind him. Maybe you take all your valuables and flee.
The point is, you have changed the "Encounter Level" due to the time the bad guy was taking looking through your sofa.
So when the PCs spend 15 minutes searching for secret doors and traps, the denizens of the dungeon are going to get their ambush ready. No, it will not be a "level-appropriate" encounter. It will be everyone, and EL can take a flying leap off a short pier. That's what the PCs get when they take their sweet time after announcing to the entire dungeon that they're in there.
If it were me, the denizens will probe the PCs defenses with a couple mooks and an observer or two who stay back to watch how the PCs respond. The denizens will be able to identify tactics, classes, who looks the most wounded, etc. I'd start retreating with all my goods to a central area (so the PCs can't steal anything else), and lure the PCs into an ambush / cross-fire situation. Or attack them all night when they decide to rest. If the PCs leave, my scouts are going to follow them at a distance and determine the path they took, because it'll likely be the path they return on the next day. And I'll stage an ambush.
Taking your time is great AFTER the threats are eliminated. Never before, or your carcass will end up decorating the bad guy's lair.
If you don't find the trap the first time, it's going to trigger.
Debatable. How are they searching? How is the trap triggered? For example, let's say the trap is a five foot square pressure plate that is triggered by them stepping on it. They are proceeding by stopping and staring minutely at every wall and floor before advancing. In this case they should find the trap before triggering it.
Anyway, having to adventure without buffs seems a much bigger disadvantage than triggering the occasional isolated trap. The only traps that matter are those that are part of an encounter, at which point you can't take 20.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is nothing wrong with taking 20 to ensure the best possible result, provided that the PCs have enough time to do it.
The 5'-by-5' thing is not a rule--and, in fact, is against the written rules for many types of Perception check. A character standing in the middle of a 100'-by-100' room can, if doing nothing else, spend 20 move actions (i.e., 1 minute) to take 20 on Perception checks made to see or hear everything in the room that is potentially visible or audible from her vantage point. Of course, all of the usual modifiers apply--distance, favorable/unfavorable conditions, partial obstructions, and so on.
If the character wants to search for things that can only be noticed by touch, taste, or some other sense that doesn't work at a distance, then that will likely take longer, something more akin to the 5'-by-5' practice. The GM will have to decide how long it takes to search an area normally, then multiply by 20 to get the time required to take 20 on the check.
Is this imbalancing or unfun? Not in the slightest. If taking 20 was disallowed, the character could simply search 20 times, rolling each time. The expected result would be the same; the fact that a player might not roll a 20 at all is counterbalanced by the fact that the player might roll a 20 on her first roll, circumventing the rest of the time spent. Take 20 simplifies things by simply requiring the expected amount of time to get the expected result. It's a shortcut to prevent ridiculous amounts of dice-rolling when there are more fun things to do. It makes the game more fun, not less.
Finally, 20 can only be taken when (a) there are no consequences for failure that might prevent or hinder another check, and (b) the character is not threatened or distracted from the task. You can take 20 to search a room, but not while it's shooting arrows at you. You can take 20 to walk a tightrope over a safety net (assuming that the net is perfect and that you take enough time to walk over the rope, fall, get up, and reposition to try again 20 times), but not over a pit of hostile dire crocodiles where a failure would have meaningful consequences.
Don't punish players for doing this--it's a feature, not an exploit. Just remember to play the situation appropriately. In many situations, taking 20 would be risky; a minute searching a hallway is quite a long time if the party is sneaking or fighting its way through an enemy fortress. In other situations, not taking 20 would be foolish ; if the party doesn't thoroughly search the small cave for animal marks before taking shelter for the night, its members deserve to be woken up by an angry bear.
The only traps that matter are those that are part of an encounter, at which point you can't take 20.
Traps generally are themselves encounters, and there are many you can detect by taking 20. If you meant that traps only matter when they coincide with combat, I must strongly disagree.
I exaggerate, but it's unusual for them to be dangerous in the published adventures. You trigger the trap, you heal up, you move on.
The big issue, generally, is that when you take 20, what's actually happening in game is you are making 20 attempts, with the assumption that every possible roll is made in there.
So, the main downside to doing so is that yes, any buffs you pull up are absolutely going to have expired before hitting a second encounter.
With Rise of the Runelords though, honestly, traps and secret doors are so few and far between, you don't have to worry too much about them all being found. Particularly once you get into chapter 2 and that level of paranoia means you're going to start constantly blundering into haunts and various bits of nasty mold.
Sounds like they're expecting a much much deadlier game than APs bring to the table though, so you might want to encourage them to relax a little.
|
I second the idea of promoting the idea in general RPG terms, this also gives you the option to use another system if PF doesn't work for your class.
I know Fate Accelerated has been used by teachers for example, and FAE is also much cheaper to purchase for a class ($5 per hard copy with a PDF that is pay-what-you-want including free!) and a much quicker read at less than 50 digest sized pages.
The key thing is to go into this with a goal in mind and how you will determine if you were successful, in the FAE example linked above the the goal was to "to get them [the students] thinking of characters and narrative, of using their imaginations and sharpening their improvisational skills".
So as well as playing I would suggest organising discussion groups after a scene or scenario to have students describe how they felt about the game, what they learned etc.
If a player could sit and roll over and over again with no consequence, then you should assume that by the 20th roll they would have rolled a 20.
This is especially useful for things like breaking down doors.
If the break DC is 30, and you have a strong dude with a crowbar and some help (total +10), then if they have all the time in the world, they can break that door down.
Otherwise, they need to get lucky (or be real strong) to do it quickly.
Most everything has been said already: If they take 20, it means that they rolled a 1 and a 20. If rolling a 1 has no negative impact, they can take 20 as long as they're willing to spend the time.
Also, how to they know when they're done? If 2 minutes of searching hasn't revealed anything, how do they know to stop searching? If 2 minutes of trying to break down a door doesn't succeed, how do they know to stop?
Re: Perception: Don't forget that every 10' causes a -1 Perception modifier, so if they really want that 20+Per for every wall, floor, and ceiling, then it's 2 minutes per 10' by RAW. I agree that 2 minutes per 5' is a bit harsh.
Re: Stealth: You didn't mention stealth, but if they try this one on you, point out that failing stealth rolls DOES have repercussions. My party has on occasion done the good old, "The rogue hides and the rest of us look for him and point him out if we see him," but unless they want to roll every single round until the rogue is hidden (and I've had some hilarious results that way, with every other party member rolling a 5 or below on their Perception checks), I give the rest of the party "take 10's" and the rogue's stealth can be the highest Perception + 1.
My personal take:
- Losing their buff spells is really going to get them killed in later modules. Let them get into a horribly bad habit and then have a group of low-level wizards hit them with simultaneous fireballs because they don't have Protection from Energy up. In Modules 5 and 6, if they don't keep up their buffs, they WILL die. Long before then, the party will encounter plenty of creatures perfectly happy to Charm or Dominate the fighters because they don't have Protection from Evil up.
- Even taking 20 there's stuff they'll miss unless they max out the skills as well. And spending skill points and feats to max out skills should reward the players who spend the time to do it.
- There are no secrets or traps in the AP that will reward them for this behavior. They're wasting their time. Eventually (hopefully) they'll get tired of it on their own.
My house rule:
- I give skill checks a +5 on a natural 20 and a -5 on a natural 1, but taking 10 or taking 20 does not get this bonus. It strongly encourages my characters to roll, even in Take 20 situations.
My house rule:
- I give skill checks a +5 on a natural 20 and a -5 on a natural 1, but taking 10 or taking 20 does not get this bonus. It strongly encourages my characters to roll, even in Take 20 situations.
Why this house rule? Take 10/20 are there because they make the game go more smoothly and quickly, and hence be more fun. Now you've created a situation where if there's a lock I need to pick, I will waste time rolling dice until I get a natural 25, and boring everyone else at the table.
What's the advantage of making it take thirty minutes table time to search a medium size room until everyone's thrown all the dice they can manage?
My house rule:
- I give skill checks a +5 on a natural 20 and a -5 on a natural 1, but taking 10 or taking 20 does not get this bonus. It strongly encourages my characters to roll, even in Take 20 situations.Why this house rule? Take 10/20 are there because they make the game go more smoothly and quickly, and hence be more fun. Now you've created a situation where if there's a lock I need to pick, I will waste time rolling dice until I get a natural 25, and boring everyone else at the table.
What's the advantage of making it take thirty minutes table time to search a medium size room until everyone's thrown all the dice they can manage?
They don't reroll. They get ONE roll under those rules. So it's the gambler's dilemma: Take one roll and try to get a good one, or take forever and take 20.
And in all honesty, I find that players who consistently "Take 20" slow down the game more than any other single aspect of play. "Wait! We've gone ten feet! I take 20! Wait! We're in a new room! I take 20! Oh! Is that a new skill? Can I take 20 on it?"
It's hideously annoying, so I empathize with the OP.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Besides the "roll until you get a 20" thing, there should be consequences for taking an extraordinary amount of time.
You could play the "random monster wandering" encounter as a way of dealing with it without totally disrupting the adventure. An RPG should be a bit more "living" than a computer program dungeon crawl. Do the monsters really just sit in their room and wait for people to come in? If not, what do they do for food?
So, if players are moving through a dungeon at a decent pace, then play the campaign as designed. If they are taking a long time, taking lots of breaks, constantly taking 20, there should be consequences. Otherwise, you're running a campaign like a computer program.
Re: Perception: Don't forget that every 10' causes a -1 Perception modifier, so if they really want that 20+Per for every wall, floor, and ceiling, then it's 2 minutes per 10' by RAW. I agree that 2 minutes per 5' is a bit harsh.
1 minute, not 2 (20 move actions = 10 rounds). Also, that same Perception check also gives them everything 10' away that has DC 19+Per, everything 20' away that has DC 18+Per, and so on. In many situations, they can get away with spending 1 minute per room if they're only looking for visual, auditory, or olfactory stimuli.
Re: Stealth: You didn't mention stealth, but if they try this one on you, point out that failing stealth rolls DOES have repercussions. My party has on occasion done the good old, "The rogue hides and the rest of us look for him and point him out if we see him," but unless they want to roll every single round until the rogue is hidden (and I've had some hilarious results that way, with every other party member rolling a 5 or below on their Perception checks), I give the rest of the party "take 10's" and the rogue's stealth can be the highest Perception + 1.
Agreed. With Stealth, you're only as Stealthy as your last roll--succeeding and then rerolling merely replaces your old roll with the new one. So taking 20 on Stealth generally isn't a thing. Using a single party member as feedback doesn't work for the same reason--when you're hidden from the other party member, you don't know whether it's due to your great Stealth roll or their poor Perception roll, so you don't know when to "stop". In any case, your first action after that requires a whole new Stealth roll anyway.
My house rule:
- I give skill checks a +5 on a natural 20 and a -5 on a natural 1, but taking 10 or taking 20 does not get this bonus. It strongly encourages my characters to roll, even in Take 20 situations.Why this house rule? Take 10/20 are there because they make the game go more smoothly and quickly, and hence be more fun. Now you've created a situation where if there's a lock I need to pick, I will waste time rolling dice until I get a natural 25, and boring everyone else at the table.
What's the advantage of making it take thirty minutes table time to search a medium size room until everyone's thrown all the dice they can manage?
They don't reroll. They get ONE roll under those rules. So it's the gambler's dilemma: Take one roll and try to get a good one, or take forever and take 20.
And in all honesty, I find that players who consistently "Take 20" slow down the game more than any other single aspect of play. "Wait! We've gone ten feet! I take 20! Wait! We're in a new room! I take 20! Oh! Is that a new skill? Can I take 20 on it?"
It's hideously annoying, so I empathize with the OP.
Meh.
"We move down the corridor, taking 20 on Perception as we go."Seems prety quick to me. Heck, if they don't ask, I usually prompt.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would say taking 20 to search for traps is a bad idea. If you fail to find it there is a chance you will set it off so you can always shoot that one down if you want.
This is incorrect. There is no chance to set a trap off when searching for it with perception by the rules. In fact the take 20 rule specifically even uses the example of SEARCHING for a trap as a valid take 20 option.
Now disabling a trap can and does have a penalty chance to set the trap off, therefore you cannot take a 20 on that.
It is important to read the skills and know which ones are valid for take 20 and which ones are not.
Remember simply having a chance to fail a skill check does not mean you cannot take a 20 on that skill. There has to be some sort of other penalty, possible or guaranteed, in the skill description to void the chance of taking 20.
The huge drawback is time spent on taking 20's. Your not being overly stealthy, your in one location 20x longer than normal. If there are other creatures in the place they may notice the activity, if there is a time constraint in the adventure your burning time, if you have spells cast they are expiring, if the adventure has wandering monsters you risk additional encounters, etc.
And searching an area while taking 20 is a very large amount of time. But if the characters have the time to spare it is smart to be careful.
In a perfect world, the skill table would have two extra columns on it indicating which skills would be valid for take 10 and take 20, with that caveat that rule 0 always is a factor.
This is incorrect. There is no chance to set a trap off when searching for it with perception by the rules.
This is incorrect. There is no chance to set a trap off when searching for it with perception by the rules.Depends on the trap.
Not even that. A rogue can say "I check the scroll for traps" and ER doesn't go off. They need to be READ, not viewed.
Op, dont worry. As time will go they will start casting Buff spells, and those last finite time. Thus they will lose more than they gain. Just make sure you count that.
|
This is incorrect. There is no chance to set a trap off when searching for it with perception by the rules.Depends on the trap.
Actually, the better example is a trap with a visual trigger. Move into sight of the trigger while taking 20 and you trigger it. It's not the Perception check that triggers it, but close enough.
Re: Perception: Don't forget that every 10' causes a -1 Perception modifier, so if they really want that 20+Per for every wall, floor, and ceiling, then it's 2 minutes per 10' by RAW. I agree that 2 minutes per 5' is a bit harsh.1 minute, not 2 (20 move actions = 10 rounds). Also, that same Perception check also gives them everything 10' away that has DC 19+Per, everything 20' away that has DC 18+Per, and so on. In many situations, they can get away with spending 1 minute per room if they're only looking for visual, auditory, or olfactory stimuli.
Re: Stealth: You didn't mention stealth, but if they try this one on you, point out that failing stealth rolls DOES have repercussions. My party has on occasion done the good old, "The rogue hides and the rest of us look for him and point him out if we see him," but unless they want to roll every single round until the rogue is hidden (and I've had some hilarious results that way, with every other party member rolling a 5 or below on their Perception checks), I give the rest of the party "take 10's" and the rogue's stealth can be the highest Perception + 1.Agreed. With Stealth, you're only as Stealthy as your last roll--succeeding and then rerolling merely replaces your old roll with the new one. So taking 20 on Stealth generally isn't a thing. Using a single party member as feedback doesn't work for the same reason--when you're hidden from the other party member, you don't know whether it's due to your great Stealth roll or their poor Perception roll, so you don't know when to "stop". In any case, your first action after that requires a whole new Stealth roll anyway.
I thought the reason why it was 2 mins was because u could only do a skill check per round. K maybe wrong on this
If you "take 20" on disable device the trap goes off
If you fail to disable a trap by 5 or more then the trap goes off
Since taking 20 involves multiple failures I would not allow it because it's going to trigger during one the supposed failures
Taking 20 takes 20 times the normal amount of time a single check would which is "usually" 2 minutes because a lot of skills take 1 round or less
Traps are difficult and require 2d4 rounds at least...so I would roll that and then multiply by 20 to get the time
If you "take 20" on disable device the trap goes off...
Except you cannot even do that since the Disable Device skill has a built in possible penalty for failure beyond simply not succeeding. Since it will set off the trap if you fail by 5 or more you cannot use the take 20 rule at all on disable device.
I'm entertained because after posting here I have my first, "The PCs have to take 20 on a Break check to succeed", followed by the inevitable, "What's the result of failure here?"
They've found the locked drawer in the captain's desk and nobody has lockpicking tools, much less Disable Device. So they're going to have to break the drawer open. The drawer full of precious, precious, fragile potions.
Seems like failure should have a consequence, but considering the potions already survived the shipwreck and the desk being overturned, and must have been packed to survive rough seas, I think I'm just going to give them the 'Take 20', describing how painful it is to use tools ill-suited to the job (shovels; the dead gnome bard's masterwork longsword) to pry open the drawer without damaging the contents...
Actually seems like fun!
If you "take 20" on disable device the trap goes off...Except you cannot even do that since the Disable Device skill has a built in possible penalty for failure beyond simply not succeeding. Since it will set off the trap if you fail by 5 or more you cannot use the take 20 rule at all on disable device.
That was kind of my point...people were mentioning allowing it...IF you allowed it then its an auto trap trigger
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RAW I cannot find a reason why they can not do this.
From the Forums I can see that 1 possibility is to force it so each 5' by 5' search takes 2 minutes (in game time)
You can take 20 on anything that can't fail. You can see if it can fail by looking at the Try Again line of the skill check. For example looking for a trap can't fail, so you can take 20 detecting traps but you can not take 20 disabling traps if a 1 on the roll could fail. Interestingly if a 1 on the disable device still succeeds then you could take 20 on disable device.
You can do move/move while looking so the time in game is 1 minute not 2 minutes for take 20 on a 5/5 square.
"Take 20 on Disable Device" is just code for "please f%!@ me up". :)Taking 20 on a Disable Device check automatically triggers the infamous 3 words: "Are you sure?"
You CAN'T take 20 on Disable Device for a trap. It's not that taking 20 will set off the trap, it that you can't. This is because you will also disarm the trap also. So, it's Schrodinger's trap.
So the trap is both sprung and unsprung?
Can the trap quantum tunnel through a wall and strike a rogue who cannot sense it, only becoming 'real' because of the rogue's pain?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the trap is both sprung and unsprung?
Can the trap quantum tunnel through a wall and strike a rogue who cannot sense it, only becoming 'real' because of the rogue's pain?
Only if the rogue is carrying a cat in a box.
Don't have time to read everything right now but here's somethings to consider...
1) Taking 20 is the equivilent of a 20 on the dice. Not sure the official ruling as skills are always ruled to not have an auto fail/succeed in my games (if its not standard its house rules and I tell my players this at the start, a master on his worst day will still make something as good or better than an apprentice on their best.) Point being I'd their skill with 20 added isn't enough to find the trap they don't find it.e.
That is RAW. 1s and 20s do nothing special on skill checks.
Excellent, and you can take 20 on something that will fail its just there will be consequnces.That is RAW. 1s and 20s do nothing special on skill checks.Don't have time to read everything right now but here's somethings to consider...
1) Taking 20 is the equivilent of a 20 on the dice. Not sure the official ruling as skills are always ruled to not have an auto fail/succeed in my games (if its not standard its house rules and I tell my players this at the start, a master on his worst day will still make something as good or better than an apprentice on their best.) Point being I'd their skill with 20 added isn't enough to find the trap they don't find it.e.
No. If you can fail disastrously like with traps, you CAN'T take 20.
Excellent, and you can take 20 on something that will fail its just there will be consequnces.That is RAW. 1s and 20s do nothing special on skill checks.Don't have time to read everything right now but here's somethings to consider...
1) Taking 20 is the equivilent of a 20 on the dice. Not sure the official ruling as skills are always ruled to not have an auto fail/succeed in my games (if its not standard its house rules and I tell my players this at the start, a master on his worst day will still make something as good or better than an apprentice on their best.) Point being I'd their skill with 20 added isn't enough to find the trap they don't find it.e.
Not by RAW. The key point if there are consequences for failure is : which comes first, the success or the consequences. So you have to roll it out and see if you get a 20 before a 1 (or a 19 before a 6, or whatever the magic die rolls are in this case). Technically speaking, I suppose, if you've got a situation where there are consequences for failure, but the character has enough skill to avoid those consequence even rolling a one -- for example, the tool breaks on a 5 or lower, but it takes a 20 to succeed in using it, a character with a +6 use tool skill would never trigger a consequence but still need to roll a +14 to succeed -- in this case, you could argue that taking 20 should be allowed.
The key point, though, is that this does nothing except streamline play at the table. In fact, it actually hurts characters to take 20, as it often takes more in-universe time to take 20 than it does simply to roll it out. For example, if I need to roll an 18 to succeed at a task, it will on average take me about 7 actions (40 seconds off my buff spells) to succeed at rolling, vs. 2 minutes with taking 20.
But it's really boring to do the :
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"
especially with other players at the table.
IMHO, a game master should use the rules for taking 10/20 as often as possible, as it makes for a better and more fun game.
When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.
If you want to go by RAW, you cannot take 20 if there are penalties for failure.
The key point, though, is that this does nothing except streamline play at the table.
But it's really boring to do the :
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"
"Did I make it?" "No"especially with other players at the table.
IMHO, a game master should use the rules for taking 10/20 as often as possible, as it makes for a better and more fun game.
I'll respectfully disagree here on the take 20 (as I think you knew), because my experience as a GM is that you end up with two types of players at the table:
Type 1:
"OK, you take 20 and find the secret door."
"WHAT?!?! No!!!! That would take too much off my buffs! I wanted to roll! Next time let me roll!"
Type 2:
"I take 20 to search the room."
"You don't find anything."
"What? That's not possible. I take 20 on the table."
"Nothing."
"OK. I take 20 on the bookcase."
...
So you and I obviously play with different types of players. I just haven't found a situation where generically taking 20 all the time works, not because it's not a good system, but because players tend to get lost in its marvels.
My players know about taking 20, and they very occasionally invoke it, but most of the time they prefer to roll ONCE.
If I had a player who rolled over and over and over again on every fail, I don't think I'd invite that player back to my table.
One roll or one take 20, that's all you get...
(And taking 10 is just assumed on everything in my game. It takes a Perception check and they'd make it on a take 10, they get it for free.)
I'll respectfully disagree here on the take 20 (as I think you knew), because my experience as a GM is that you end up with two types of players at the table:Type 1:
"OK, you take 20 and find the secret door."
"WHAT?!?! No!!!! That would take too much off my buffs! I wanted to roll! Next time let me roll!"Type 2:
"I take 20 to search the room."
"You don't find anything."
"What? That's not possible. I take 20 on the table."
"Nothing."
"OK. I take 20 on the bookcase."
...So you and I obviously play with different types of players.
Obviously. But I think you're also handling both of those situations badly as a GM. In the first place, yes, you shouldn't assume that someone's taking any particular action, and you should let them roll if they want to save their buff time.
In the second case, just tell them that they've already taken 20 to search the table, because it's in the room.
One roll or one take 20, that's all you get...
Mere words cannot express how bad an idea I think this is. If there is no consequence for failure, there should be no consequence for failure.
If you instituted this as a house rule in my game, my response would be to close the books, stand up, and wish you all a pleasant rest of the evening.
I suppose something like ...
Player: "Let's search the room."
GM: "Taking 20?"
Player responds yes or no
is just too complicated?
So your players get only one chance to open a lock? There is no penalty for failing to open a lock. Why can they not just keep trying? This is the most common use of taking 20 in the game I play in. If we couldn't decide to take 20 after fumbling the roll a few times we'd be changing AP's often (as soon as we reach a locked door with a high DC).
It's worthwhile to try to see if you can do it quickly and, if you can't, resort to taking 20. This strikes me as the intended purpose of taking 20. How do your players know taking 20 is necessary without trying to open the lock with a roll first?
So your players get only one chance to open a lock? There is no penalty for failing to open a lock. Why can they not just keep trying? This is the most common use of taking 20 in the game I play in. If we couldn't decide to take 20 after fumbling the roll a few times we'd be changing AP's often (as soon as we reach a locked door with a high DC).
It's worthwhile to try to see if you can do it quickly and, if you can't, resort to taking 20. This strikes me as the intended purpose of taking 20. How do your players know taking 20 is necessary without trying to open the lock with a roll first?
Read the rules for taking 20 then read the rules for disable device
You CAN take 20 on disable device for a lock...not a trap...and not a lock if failing said lock would have some penalty (such as the lock is trapped)
Also if there is no immediate danger you could always just take a 10 first
So your players get only one chance to open a lock? There is no penalty for failing to open a lock. Why can they not just keep trying? This is the most common use of taking 20 in the game I play in. If we couldn't decide to take 20 after fumbling the roll a few times we'd be changing AP's often (as soon as we reach a locked door with a high DC).
It's worthwhile to try to see if you can do it quickly and, if you can't, resort to taking 20. This strikes me as the intended purpose of taking 20. How do your players know taking 20 is necessary without trying to open the lock with a roll first?
Read the rules for taking 20 then read the rules for disable device
You CAN take 20 on disable device for a lock...not a trap...and not a lock if failing said lock would have some penalty (such as the lock is trapped)
Also if there is no immediate danger you could always just take a 10 first
Sorry, I guess it's a little unclear that I am addressing NobodysHome who allows his players only one dice roll or one take 20. I'm not sure how he would handle taking 10 but I'm guessing he doesn't like that either.
So your players get only one chance to open a lock? There is no penalty for failing to open a lock. Why can they not just keep trying? This is the most common use of taking 20 in the game I play in. If we couldn't decide to take 20 after fumbling the roll a few times we'd be changing AP's often (as soon as we reach a locked door with a high DC).
It's worthwhile to try to see if you can do it quickly and, if you can't, resort to taking 20. This strikes me as the intended purpose of taking 20. How do your players know taking 20 is necessary without trying to open the lock with a roll first?
Read the rules for taking 20 then read the rules for disable device
You CAN take 20 on disable device for a lock...not a trap...and not a lock if failing said lock would have some penalty (such as the lock is trapped)
Also if there is no immediate danger you could always just take a 10 first
The poster he* was speaking to states that his* players would only get one roll or one take 20 per skill challenge, period, else they would probably not be invited back. Which is ludicrous.
(*genders inferred from avatars; please correct as needed)