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I hear all the time "Rogues are underpowered".
Absolute nonesense. It's just most people don't know how to play Rogues effectively. If you cooperate with the party tank, or find a way to get opponents flat-footed a lot, a high level Rogue can dump out truckloads of SA damage.
Doubly so if your DM lets you take the "re-roll all 1s" trick, and you stack it with some Assassin levels or something. Personally I allow Craven and Improved Sneak Attack from 3.5, so that makes Rogues even more powerful...
Come to think of it... I may write a Rogue guide.
The problem with rogue at high levels is they are glass cannons. If the rogue can hit with all their attacks they can do a ton of damage. The problem is if that doesn't drop you subject of the sneak attack the retaliation can very well drop the rogue in 1 round. This due the rogues low AC and lower hit points compared to the tank. At high levels the AC climbs faster than the rogue's to hit bonus. So they tend to miss more often.
To give an example the rogue in our RotRL game was fine till the last part. At the time the rogue down almost every fight. There were couple fights that weren't that bad stuff where the rogues reflex and evasion saved him.
easiest way to reduce rogue death.
1. take offensive defense. just hit once for +SA dice to your ac (say at 10, you get 5 ac, for free, stacks with everything)2. Go dex based. at 10, you should have at least +6 into your dex. giving you ~24 average. for +7 dex bonus, mix with mith armor.
3. at 10 take crippling strike. -2 str for every time you hit? ( or do SA, can't remember) he hurts much less after 2-3 hits only.
4. wand of shield, keep it active, not to hard.
5. look just slightly less scary than the raging AM OTHER BARBARIAN smashing stuff. (while being harder to hit!)
Step 1: Make sure rogue has ranks in UMD and maybe skill focus(UMD) [although not really needed with high cha]
Step 2: Take skill mastery with UMD [at lvl 10]
Step 3: Throw tons of wands, scrolls, and staves at the party
With that the rogue can always contribute
I would also recommend a one-handed feint build.
I think improving Sneak Attack is like increasing a Fighter's DPR... It's technically a buff, but completely fails to address the real issues with the class.
For Rogue to be a viable class, it should get:
- Better defenses (especially saving throws)
- Better accuracy
- Better utility and versatility at mid/high level (when spells steal skills' thunder)
- More unique features (Rogue Talents that are cool and actually worth a damn would be great!)
- The ability to invest in Int and Cha without gimping themselves.
- The acknowledgement that Trap Finding is not useful enough to be considered a class' main feature. At best, it's a secondary ability. It's either completely useless or extremely boring (Roll Perception. Roll Disable Device. The End. Yeah! That's some fun right there! Rolling dice without any thinking or decision-making involved. ¬¬')Fix that and you fix Rogues.
You forgot full spellcasting, d12 HP and full BAB. Geez.
The rogue is fine as it is. Mind you, the devs have said there are some cool new talents on the way, which would be nice.
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You forgot full spellcasting, d12 HP and full BAB. Geez.
The rogue is fine as it is. Mind you, the devs have said there are some cool new talents on the way, which would be nice.
Because asking for Rogue Talents and saving throws that are not horrible is the same thing as asking for full spell casting and full BAB, right?
I won't derail this thread with a discussion about the Rogue class' merits and demerits. If you want to talk about how awesome you think Rogues are, start a new thread.
For your consideration.
Race: Aasimar
Class: Rogue (Swashbuckler {Martial Weapon Proficiency – Scimitar} / Scout Archetypes)
Favored Cass Bonus: 1 HP / lvl
Traits: Unscathed / Sacred Touch (or Killer) / Flame of the Dawnflower (Drawback – Pride or Meticulous)
Consider trading one of these traits for Reactionary.
STR: 11
DEX: 18 [2nd and 3rd Ability points]
CON: 14 [4th and 5th Ability points]
INT: 12
WIS: 12 (14 after Racial Adjustment)
CHA: 13 (15 after Racial Adjustment) [1st Ability point]
Level / Feats / Talents:
1. Feat: Angelic Blood
2. Talent: Weapon Training - Scimitar
3. Feat: Angelic Wings
4. Talent: Finesse Rogue
5. Feat: Angelic Flesh - Steel
6. Talent: Combat Trick – Dervish Dance
7. Feat: Metallic Wings
8. Talent: Combat Trick - Dodge
9. Feat: Combat Expertise
10. Talent: Opportunist
11. Feat: Gang Up
12. Talent: Unwitting Ally
13. Feat: Mobility
14. Talent: Vanish
15. Feat: Point Blank Shot
16. Talent: Offensive Defense
17. Feat: Precise Shot
18. Talent: See the Unseen
19. Feat: Flyby Attack
20. Talent: Invisible Blade
Also consider Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, and Heavenly Radiance (Searing Light, Wandering Star Motes, and Sunbeam) in place of Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Flyby Attack.
Items: Boots of Speed, Menacing Weapon, and a good bow.
Tactics at lvl 12 will be: Flank, Flank, Flank! You have plenty of other melee guys in the mix to aid in flanking and with the Gang Up feat and the Unwitting Ally Rogue Talent it shouldn’t be that hard to get into some good positions. You also have the Opportunist Rogue Talent so once per round when an ally strikes your target you may make an AoO against that target. So if you are allowing your Guile Pool to grant an additional attack like the Ninja Ki Pool your attack progression at lvl 12 will look something like this when you use Ki and turn on your Boots of Speed against a Flanked opponent: 20/20/20/14/14/14 (Plus another 20 when they are attacked by your ally or try to move out of their flanked position). This is counting your +5 from Dex, +1 from Boots of Speed, Weapon Focus for Scimitar attacks, +2 from Flanking, and +2 for menacing weapon. This is not taking into consideration Weapon Enhancement Bonus or Dex buffing items. For a backup tactic or in emergencies fly up and start flying around 10 feet and firing off a shot. Your Scout ability will kick in and you can get Sneak Attack on your shot. Additionally, with the Sacred Touch trait and wings, you may literally be a life saver in your party.
You forgot full spellcasting, d12 HP and full BAB. Geez.
The rogue is fine as it is. Mind you, the devs have said there are some cool new talents on the way, which would be nice.
Because asking for Rogue Talents and saving throws that are not horrible is the same thing as asking for full spell casting and full BAB, right?
I won't derail this thread with a discussion about the Rogue class' merits and demerits. If you want to talk about how awesome you think Rogues are, start a new thread.
So, a many paragraph long "fix" isn't a derail?
Two Good saves are not happening without Pathfinder 2nd ED, which I hope fervently doesn't happen for a loooooooong time.
Not really... My comment about SA only came up after a number of people suggested improving the ability in one way or another. My point is that just improving SA won't have any significant effects unless it's taken to the extreme (e.g.:"Whenever you deal SA damage, your target dies!")
Then I complemented my comment by saying what I believe are the problems with the Rogue class, or more specifically, how to possibly fix those problems.
Note that a 2nd good save is not necessary. Barbarians have only 1 good save but they get a nice bonus to all saves, so in the end, it doesn't matter. My own homebrew version of the Rogue class still only has 1 good save progression, but it gets abilities that help him compensate that shortcoming, making sure it can survive past 9th level or so, when failing a save is very likely to kill or severely incapacitate the character.
Anyway, I'm done with this debate. Like many others, I already gave my suggestion to the OP.
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I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
I have to agree here. As much as you think it's probably best to try, he likely won't change his mind, until he sees in reality how bad it is. I've seen players like that (though in their case, with the monk), one of whom had the defense of "I'm not looking for optimization, so I don't care if people say the class sucks." He rolled up a Fighter a month later.
Just be open to saying, if you ever aren't having fun with the class, you can rebuild it as a swashbuckler or a slayer or whatever.
Institute my favorite variant rule: fractional BAB...this allows people to multiclass without murdering their BAB
With that in kind I suggest the following as options
he can flavor the classes any way he wants
The rogue is fine as it is.
You know that is not true.
I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
Why should he fail? The rogue is a fine class, well balanced and a asset to any team.
I know, you guys keep say "teh rouge is teh suxxor" but saying it over and over and over again, increasingly stridently doesn't make it any more of a fact. It remain an opinion, a opinion not held by the rest of us.
It's simply the opinion of some people here that anything but a full spellcaster is useless. Fine, go ahead and play them.
Concerning the build I posted above, if you are willing to ditch the Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Flyby Attack feats but don't want the others I suggested there are a couple other things you could look into. If one or both of your other melee party members are willing to take a single Teamwork Feat I highly suggest Outflanked. It grants another +2 when you are flanking, bringing the bonus for the build up to +6, and offers an AoO whenever your ally confirms a critical hit. Then take Combat Reflexes. Now any time you flank someone you have a potential for three AoOs at full BAB with Sneak Attack; one from Opportunist, another from Outflanked, and a third if the opponent moves without using a withdrawal or 5 foot step. Of course, you would no longer have an ideal option to fly above combat and plink down arrows with Sneak Attack because you will suffer the -4 to fire into Melee, but you will be pretty nasty on the ground.
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I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
Why should he fail? The rogue is a fine class, well balanced and a asset to any team.
I know, you guys keep say "teh rouge is teh suxxor" but saying it over and over and over again, increasingly stridently doesn't make it any more of a fact. It remain an opinion, a opinion not held by the rest of us.
It's simply the opinion of some people here that anything but a full spellcaster is useless. Fine, go ahead and play them.
what does the rogue do that bards and barbarians don't do better?
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and still does less :P but its why I love sneak attack and blast wizards.. I love to roll sum dice ;) and why I try to make rogues work better.
I know what you mean. I had a guy once ask to borrow my hat so he could roll all of his damage dice at once. It was glorious [GM let a Vivisectionist Multi-weapon fight with Vestigial Arms. Only once though].
what does the rogue do that bards and barbarians don't do better?I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
Why should he fail? The rogue is a fine class, well balanced and a asset to any team.
I know, you guys keep say "teh rouge is teh suxxor" but saying it over and over and over again, increasingly stridently doesn't make it any more of a fact. It remain an opinion, a opinion not held by the rest of us.
It's simply the opinion of some people here that anything but a full spellcaster is useless. Fine, go ahead and play them.
Simple- have fun since you want to play a rogue, not a bbn or a bard.
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I would just go
Weapon Finesse (Dex bonus to hit)
Improved Feint (Feint as a move action, gets in the sneak damage)
Agile Weapon Enchant (+1 enchant that adds Dex bonus to damage INSTEAD of str)
That way he gets use his two highest stats in combat (Charisma and Dexterity)
This can be done by level 5 (assuming standard WBL)
Rogue with only a +1 Agile Rapier, level 5:
Dex: 20
Cha: 16
BAB: +3
Rogue Talents(Bleeding Sneak, Combat Feat(Weapon Focus(Rapier)))
+1 Agile Rapier +10 1D6+6 18-20/x2 +3D6 Sneak Attack hitting on flat footed and giving 3 bleed.
Get Cats Grace cast on him, he is doing 1D6+8+3D6 to Flat Footed.
We have a similar player in our group, she likes the idea of being a rogue but hates falling behind the other players. We just explained that the classes are really just mechanics and her flavor wasn't going to suffer by switching into a multiclass rogue/ranger or rogue/gunslinger. Grabbing some rogue early and then focusing on whatever makes your chosen combat style work makes her happy, perhaps a similar approach will help your player?
what does the rogue do that bards and barbarians don't do better?I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
Why should he fail? The rogue is a fine class, well balanced and a asset to any team.
I know, you guys keep say "teh rouge is teh suxxor" but saying it over and over and over again, increasingly stridently doesn't make it any more of a fact. It remain an opinion, a opinion not held by the rest of us.
It's simply the opinion of some people here that anything but a full spellcaster is useless. Fine, go ahead and play them.
A lot if you are actually good at playing a Rogue. Bard and Barb might be able to do a lot of the same things a Rogue can, they might even be able to do it just as well, but I would argue that they don't actually do it better. And in cases where another class is taking an Archetype to get the basic ability a Rogue has as a class feature, the Rogue can also take an Archetype and be even better at that ability.
1. No one is better at getting around traps than a Trapsmith Rogue. PF APs don't use many traps, but in home games they can get pretty disgusting.
2. The Poisoner Rogue is just as good at producing and using very nasty poisons as an Alchemist.
3. No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue. The Viv Alchemist and Ninja are equally good but not better and the Rogue Scout, Bandit, Knife Master, and Skulking Slayer are far better at Sneak Attack than the Viv Alchemist or Ninja can be.
4. With Sneak Attack and a few other options the Rogue is better at Coup De Graces than any other class. Not sure how many people the average Rogue these days has CDGd but I have killed quite a few high level NPCs in their sleep.
5. What about magic? Well, I don't care to rely solely on magic to be useful, but when I need it I have UMD and a few other tricks. Also, a Rogue functions just fine in an Antimagic Field or inside the radius of a Silence spell.
6. What about Rage? Keep it, I've seen too many Barbarians die right after combat because they came out of rage and all their bonus HP disappeared.
::EDIT::
7. Disarming opponents.
8. I would say second best behind Fighter at getting extra feats.
Why should he fail?
He's playing a broken and incomplete class that is not only objectively inferior at what it does than other classes, but even has trouble being a functional character in a vacuum without comparison.
Oh wait that's right, you consider ninjas to be rogues and make these comments assuming that every rogue player is a ninja.
Can we not have this argument in a thread about helping someone who is actually having rogue balance problems in an actual game?
Clearly the player is just failing to understand how good they are and how much fun they are having.
Can we not have this argument in a thread about helping someone who is actually having rogue balance problems in an actual game?
Dr. Deth claims to have invented the thief class. Can we, instead of arguing with him about it, agree that he's about as objective about rogues as Thomas Edison was about DC infrastructure and ignore him?
It's true, I am hardly objective. But I also defend the Fighter class, too.
And the OP didn't say the player WAS having issues he posted that he expects the player to have issues: "even after me telling him he will always be lackluster in combat." So, he's not "actually having rogue balance problems in an actual game" he just thinks that's gonna happen, and since 'self-fulfilling prophecies" it's likely to happen.
And in fact the player wants to play a rogue- apparently for the fun- even tho the DM has warned him he will be cruddy.
Mind you, he is apparently the newb in the group, so of course there will be some issues in any case.
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It's true, I am hardly objective. But I also defend the Fighter class, too.Can we not have this argument in a thread about helping someone who is actually having rogue balance problems in an actual game?
Dr. Deth claims to have invented the thief class. Can we, instead of arguing with him about it, agree that he's about as objective about rogues as Thomas Edison was about DC infrastructure and ignore him?
that's easier to defend, as it is objectively GOOD at what it was supposed to do. fight.
anyway, we are working it out now, thanks for the help everyone!
Oh wait that's right, you consider ninjas to be rogues and make these comments assuming that every rogue player is a ninja.
*I* don't. The guy who is the Creative Director for Paizo said so. The ninja is a type of rogue archetype.
What's interesting is that even after being proved totally wrong, you continue to bring this up. You'd think you would know when you had lost?
I would just go
Weapon Finesse (Dex bonus to hit)
Improved Feint (Feint as a move action, gets in the sneak damage)Agile Weapon Enchant (+1 enchant that adds Dex bonus to damage INSTEAD of str)
That way he gets use his two highest stats in combat (Charisma and Dexterity)
This can be done by level 5 (assuming standard WBL)
Rogue with only a +1 Agile Rapier, level 5:
Dex: 20
Cha: 16BAB: +3
Rogue Talents(Bleeding Sneak, Combat Feat(Weapon Focus(Rapier)))
+1 Agile Rapier +10 1D6+6 18-20/x2 +3D6 Sneak Attack hitting on flat footed and giving 3 bleed.
Get Cats Grace cast on him, he is doing 1D6+8+3D6 to Flat Footed.
Improved Feint requires Combat Expertise, which in turn requires Int 13+.
Oh wait that's right, you consider ninjas to be rogues and make these comments assuming that every rogue player is a ninja.*I* don't. The guy who is the Creative Director for Paizo said so. The ninja is a type of rogue archetype.
What's interesting is that even after being proved totally wrong, you continue to bring this up. You'd think you would know when you had lost?
And yet you still fail to realize that when people are talking about rogues, they are not talking about ninjas.
Also you should read James' post again. He makes it VERY clear as to why an alternate class is an archetype in nature, but different enough that it deserved it's own table and section.
Failing to understand this is just disingenuous and leads to unhelpful comments like, "the rogue is a fine class. Your player isn't having problems. You just need to inform them of how useful they are and how much fun they are actually having. I mean rogues can turn invisible at will and can run across lava. How is that not useful?"
Talk to the player about what he hope to get out of his rogue. And give him some of that at every session. I dont the think the rogue is salvageable with out the GM on your side at high levels. So let him plan a head have the rigth gizmo and surprise the team with his roguishness. I guess that is what he wants but i may be wrong, i have been in the past.
We have a similar player in our group, she likes the idea of being a rogue but hates falling behind the other players. We just explained that the classes are really just mechanics and her flavor wasn't going to suffer by switching into a multiclass rogue/ranger or rogue/gunslinger. Grabbing some rogue early and then focusing on whatever makes your chosen combat style work makes her happy, perhaps a similar approach will help your player?
So much this.
So, he wants to try and remake his character, even after me telling him he will always be lackluster in combat.
Try this, I was trying to figure out a way to make the Rogue or Ninja SUPER EFFECTIVE in combat, and came up with the dual-wielding whip Rat-folk duo!
The skinny is this, two ratfolk can stand in the same square. If they both attack the same enemy the enemy is treated as flanked! If an enemy is Flanked then the Rogue can use its sneak attack!Viola! The rogue can now be OVERWHELMINGLY EFFECTIVE if he has range.
So how does one player have two ratfolk? Why, LEADERSHIP of course!
Offer him this idea,
Name: WHATEVAH!
Race: RATFOLK!
STATISTICS!
30-point buy
STR 05 (-3) [-2 racial] {+04 Points}
Dex 22 (+6) [+2 racial] {-17 Points} |+2 from lvl 4 and 8|
Con 14 (+2) [-- racial] {-05 Points}
Int 13 (+1) [+2 racial] {-01 Points}
Wis 11 (+0) [-- racial] {-01 Points}
Cha 16 (+2) [-- racial] {-10 Points}
Cohorts have NPC statistics (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8) and are always 2 levels, at least, behind the master. So the Cohort, if the master is at level 10, should be level 8.
STR 06 (-2) [-2 racial] {8}
Dex 19 (+4) [+2 racial] {15} |+2 from level 4 and 8|
Con 13 (+1) [-- racial] {13}
Int 12 (+1) [+2 racial] {10}
Wis 12 (+1) [-- racial] {12}
Cha 14 (+2) [-- racial] {14}
RT = Rogue Talent. FT = Feat.
(BAB)(Character level)(Feat or Rogue Talent level) <Feat name>
(00)(01st)(FT01) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip
(01)(02nd)(RT01) Weapon Finesse
(02)(03rd)(FT02) Two-Weapon Fighting
(03)(04th)(RT02) Combat Expertise
(03)(05th)(FT03) Two-Weapon Feint
(04)(06th)(RT03) Weapon Focus: Whip
(05)(07th)(FT04) Leadership
(06)(08th)(RT04) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
(06)(09th)(FT05) Whip Mastery
(07)(10th)(RT05) Improved Two-Weapon Feint
(08)(11th)(FT06) Improved Whip Mastery
(09)(12th)(RT06) Combat Reflexes
(09)(13th)(FT07) Extra Talent: Opportunist
(10)(14th)(RT07) Crippling Strike
(11)(15th)(FT08) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
(12)(16th)(RT08) Powerful Sneak
(12)(17th)(FT09) Deadly Sneak
(13)(18th)(RT09) Distracting Attack
(14)(19th)(FT10)
(15)(20th)(RT10)
Weapons:
First off this build ONLY uses whips, but any other Rogue weapon will do. Hand-Crossbows are nice, but since whips have a range of 15-ft they are almost as good. Better to have a light-Crossbow. However, with a strength of 5 the PC will not be able to carry much, so a bag of holding is a must, and wearing armor is likely going to be hard to do. The build relies on one thing: PUMP OUT AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE. If the two ratfolk kill the enemy before being killed themselves then they win!
The master's sneak attack should be at +5d6, and the cohort at +4d6, with a full attack that is 20d6 from the master at max and 16d6 from the cohort, and only because of how Ratfolk work. Each whip should be made Agile, which means each attack will do an extra 4 or 6 damage a hit depending on if it is the master or the cohort.
Gear: Anything that increases DEX is fantastic.
Classes: For maximum badassery have the Master be a Ninja and the Cohort be a Rogue. This means the master can do his sneaking thing and the cohort can look for traps. You can gain Perform from traits, so don't sweat it!
Tactics: Also, remember that the build is built around both the ratfolk standing in the same square and both attacking the target at the same time so they get the benefits of Swarming. Effectively, if they are played correctly, treat them as having the same initiative since the one who is ahead of the other should hold his action until the other is ready, and then them both move on the same time.
If your player decides to go for this, then I am intensely curious as to how it works out!
The theoretical damage of this duo per round if they attack the same target and all attacks hit is 126 damage from sneak attack damage alone.
4. With Sneak Attack and a few other options the Rogue is better at Coup De Graces than any other class. Not sure how many people the average Rogue these days has CDGd but I have killed quite a few high level NPCs in their sleep.Barbarian with a scythe says hi.
Knife Master Rogue with a Punching Dagger and the Underhanded rogue talent. Let's go with lvl 12 since that's what the level the OP is currently running: Calculating for a 24 Dex and a +3 Agile Punching Dagger = 3d4 (6) + 78. Average of 84 and this will scale up with every extra d8 of Sneak Attack thereafter.
If I compare that with a Barb with a 24 Str (x1.5 for two handed) using a +2 Flame Burst Scythe you will do 8d4 (16) + 1d6 (3) + 3d10 (15) + 48 damage. Average 82.
Now, obviously you could start talking about Power Attack and Rage and all that, but a Dex Rogue can also have a 13 Str and get Power Attack, or just use Piranha Strike. And if you are Raging, you probably shouldn't realistically be sneaking up on anyone in their sleep. You might be able to CDG a helpless person on the battlefield while Raging, but you definitely shouldn't be sneaking into any enemy camps and killing entire enemy parties while in Rage mode.
5. What about magic? Well, I don't care to rely solely on magic to be useful, but when I need it I have UMD and a few other tricks. Also, a Rogue functions just fine in an Antimagic Field or inside the radius of a Silence spell.The barbarian can actually smash said Antimagic Field, not that he loses that much more than the rogue.
This was more pointed at Bards, but yes, you too can function in an antimagic field.
Without Rage, that specific barbarian would have died during combat.6. What about Rage? Keep it, I've seen too many Barbarians die right after combat because they came out of rage and all their bonus HP disappeared.
Still dead, still have to pay for a Rez. I've seen Barbs have to sell of prized magic items to pay for a Rez cause they die at the end of Rage so often. I am not saying that is a common case, I don't really know and I feel like it's something you should be able to mitigate, but it's still something to consider.
Strength Surge says hi.7. Disarming opponents.
Never seen that before. That is pretty great, however, it's still only once per Rage. With Weapon Snatcher, Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), Deft Hands, and the Improved/Greater Disarm feats a Rogue can be consistently amazing at Disarming. And if you are a Fetchling Rogue in dim light the Favored Class option is essentially 1/2 Rogue level to Sleight of hand checks. So, with some quick math, at level 12 that is a potentially consistent +42 to Disarm checks. Then if you decide to take a weapon proficiency in a disarming weapon your entire weapon enhancement bonus +2 added to the check also.
I believe that honor might fall to the Monk, but i might be mistaken.8. I would say second best behind Fighter at getting extra feats.
Standard Monk gets 7 bonus feats.
Standard Rogue can get up to 9, Swashbuckler Archetype can get up to 10, and Skulking Slayer Archetype could get 11 if they had enough Rogue Talents available. Now, would one use every single Rogue Talent slot to get a bonus feat of those available via talents? Probably not but there are several available that would work well with a variety of builds.
Take the deathless spirit alternate racial trait. Resistance to negative energy and save or suck Fort-based abilities are more important for a rogue than energy resistance.
Rogue archetypes: scout, swashbuckler
Feats:
- Antagonize
- Point Blank Shot
- Angelic Blood
- Precise Shot
- Rapid Reload (lt crossbow)
Rogue Talents:
- Sniper's Eye
- Sacred Sneak Attack
- Combat Trick - Combat Expertise
- Combat Trick - Butterfly's Sting
- Slow Reactions
- Advanced talent - Feat: Angelic Wings
Skills: max. Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Perception, Use Magic Device; enough Fly to function; whatever else you want to be skilled in.
Gear: sniper's goggles, +X keen lt crossbow, +X slick griffon mane quilted cloth armor, wand of arrow eruption in a spring-loaded wrist sheath, whatever useful stuff synergizes and is in your WBL
Tactics: you are a mobile dealer of single-target damage and tactical support with a golden smile.
- Fly around dropping a sneak attack bolt per round as long as you move 10', preferably within 30 feet to deal +10 damage from the sniper goggles. The target loses his attacks of opportunity from Slow Reactions, making your melee grunts happy.
- If you confirm a critical, give up the extra damage to let the next melee hit against the target auto-crit. Your melee grunts become even happier.
- If you face a sizable number of mooks/enemies and have just shot the primary target with a sneak attack, pop out your wand on the next round to chain the sneak attack bolt into as many targets as possible (this also applies Slow Reactions and butterfly's Sting, if applicable). You have just made your party wizard's crowd control job easier. Everyone rejoices.
- If you are facing a BBEG and/or an enemy with very high AC, use Antagonize to debuff and distract them in round 1, then try your usual snipy snipy tactics. Your party will once again be happy.
- Outside of combat you should have plenty of skill points to shore up wherever the party needs an expert. Let the paladin do all the talking if you want, but you'll also have social skills to back him up if needed.
EDIT: Worship Desna, maybe pick up some Perform with all your extraneous skill points for RP purposes. Be all muse-touched and stuff.
I don't know if this will ultimately help you with your friend, but I suggest that you let the player fail.
I realize that this seems to be unhelpful, but I can only conclude that he is unwilling to alter his position and if this is true then no help can be offered with any hope of it being received with the spirit in which it was offered.
If your player loses his character or continues to complain of his characters lack of success you can only point to the knowledge that you already offered him.
Why should he fail? The rogue is a fine class, well balanced and a asset to any team.
I know, you guys keep say "teh rouge is teh suxxor" but saying it over and over and over again, increasingly stridently doesn't make it any more of a fact. It remain an opinion, a opinion not held by the rest of us.
It's simply the opinion of some people here that anything but a full spellcaster is useless. Fine, go ahead and play them.
I prefer it when people do not ascribe ideology to me on my behalf. I never stated any of the things you claim whilst quoting me and I don't appreciate these sorts of fallacies being propagated at my expense.
I have never, in all of the years I have played dungeons and dragons(and related materials), felt the need to play a full caster. I prefer to play bards or other hybrid classes because I get to meddle in most of the adventure hooks without being totally out of my depth. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize the power that arises from having full casting progression.
I think you have too much invested in this and do not appear to be able to maintain any sort of objectivity.
There is little to be gained from power attack if you can't use two hands upon the weapon. Trading one point of to hit for two points of damage is pretty close to zero sum.
I believe combat trick can only be taken once WRoy.
I believe combat trick can only be taken once WRoy.
Swashbuckler archetype.
Power Attack really can't be put off just like that. Many Dex-based rogues will not have Power Attack, or Piranha Strike, because that hit penalty on a rogue really hurts. And even if they do, they'll probably use light weapons (you mentioned a punching dagger), that don't get as much benefit from Power Attack as a two-hander.
True enough. Unless we compare to a Str based Ninja using a Katana, or a Str based Skulking Slayer using a Great Axe. In those cases there is a good chance they would have Power Attack with a two handed weapon. Anyway, when I started the calculations I actually didn't know if I could out-damage the Barb. The point though in me calculating any of this at all was simply to prove that with a Dex based Rogue using a Dagger I can deal comparable damage.
And I really don't see why exactly entering Rage automatically wakes up your target.
This isn't a RAW it's just my point of view. "A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess...is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage." This just doesn't strike me as something that is quiet and precise, it sounds vicious, guttural and aggressively loud. It sounds like you just lost your F-ing mind, are seeing red through bloodshot eyes, and are going to rip something's arms off. But hey, if your GM is okay with you Raging in the middle of a camp of sleeping enemies without waking anyone... go for it.
Also, it would probably be a +2 Furious Courageous Scythe, but I'm just nit-picking at this point :)
Cool, so instead of +1d6 +3d10 you are getting stuff that only works when you are Raging. So, if you are CDGing someone on the battle field you are good, otherwise its up to the GM and whether or not everyone in the room wakes up when you hulk out with Rage.
However, when you are raging with this weapon you will get some awesome bonuses:
24 base Str would increase to 32 (x1.5 for two handed) using a +2 Furious Courageous Scythe you will do 8d4 (16) + 16 + 64 damage. Average 96.
On the other hand when you are not Raging you will get much lower bonuses:
24 Str (x1.5 Two handed) and +2 Weapon gets you 8d4 (16) + 8 + 40. Average 64.
I am not going to bother calculating this with Power Attack but the general point here is Rogues are capable of dishing out a pretty nasty CDG. If a Raging Barbarian is the only thing that can out damage me, by only 10-20ish points, it's not going to make me cry about how underpowered I am. Especially when my average result is 84 - no one is surviving that.
That's... a common problem for people not used to barbarians. Say you get 24 HP from Rage. Now, if you're down to single digits when the fight is over, you would have died before the fight ended if you hadn't raged. Think of it as a modified Ferocity, a "safety buffer" to make sure the other guy drops too.
The main Barb I am thinking of when I say all this was played by a guy with a good deal of system mastery. He was highly optimized too... he could deal 100+ damage on a charge, only one in the party that could out-damage my Rogue based guy. But he had medium armor, average HP, and was the party tank. We usually fought a few times a day too so sometimes he would run out of Rage in the middle of combat toward the end of a long adventuring day and just die. It was kinda funny, but took a toll on his wealth.
Honest question, how? I can only count 6 (Combat Swipe, Combat Trick, Finesse Rogue, Strong Impression, Weapon Focus and Feat [wish there was a better name for this one]).
1. Combat Trick: A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat (see Feats).
2. Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.3. Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
4. Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent.
5. Combat Swipe: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Steal as a bonus feat.
6. Strong Impression: A rogue who selects this talent gains Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat.
7. Firearm Training (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms).
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once. The ninja cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.
Ninja Talents:
8. Deflect Arrows: A ninja who selects this ninja trick gains the Deflect Arrows feat as a bonus feat. The ninja must have the Improved Unarmed Strike combat feat before taking this trick.
9. Snatch Arrows: A ninja who selects this ninja trick gains the Snatch Arrows feat as a bonus feat. The ninja must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Deflect Arrows feat before taking this trick.
10. Style Master: A ninja who selects this ninja trick gains a style feat that she qualifies for as a bonus feat.
11. Unarmed Combat Training: A ninja who selects this ninja trick gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
Keep in mind the Swashbuckler Rogue can take Combat Trick twice.
Also the Skulking Slayer gets this ability for 12 and 13: Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, a skulking slayer can select the Surprise Follow-Through feat (see below) in place of a rogue talent. At 10th level, she can select the Improved Surprise Follow-Through feat in place of an advanced rogue talent.
Actually, I think I miscalculated the basic Rogue's available bonus feats, I think even they can get 10.
One thing to consider for your player's Rogue is multiclassing. While this means losing out on some sneak attack die, the Rogue is one of the few classes that can really benefit from multiclassing in such a way that the player's experience is vastly improved.
One of my favorite things today since 3.5 edition D&D (and I still do it in Pathfinder) is to use one of the following two class combinations:
A) Fighter2/RogueX (Fighter makes a good first level class followed by Rogue at second level simply because HD10 maxed is better than HD8 maxed)
B) Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster or Rogue/Sorcerer(Sage Bloodline)/Arcane Trickster
Option A gives you a martial rogue with a slight boost in BAB in the beginning, two feats (which can be spent on, say, Weapon Focus and TWF to give the rogue an edge), and +3 to the Rogue's Fortitude save at the cost of a little Reflex. You'll still need Iron Will in the longrun or some means of protecting yourself from bad guys' spells (consider marching around with a wand or with potions of Protection From Evil to be used just before fights). This is probably more in line with what your player wants, and it's really worth considering. Pathfinder may discourage multiclassing, but good ol' Rogue/Fighter is a tried and true tradition, simple in its execution. Get a flanking buddy and have at it. (Of course, it still lacks any inborn magical capability, so don't expect to compete with the highest tier classes.)
Option B gives you an intelligence-based arcane spellcaster that gets good sneak attack damage, can apply that sneak attack damage to a fireball eventually, and can use this combination of skills to devestating effect when using touch attack spells. In fact, you could use a Sage sorcerer crossblooded with, say, the Draconic Bloodline to get +1 Electrical damage per die, allowing you to use Jolt and Shocking Grasp to greater effect; combine that with the Varisian Tattoo feat, Spell Focus, the proper traits... You could make up for those levels lost to Rogue (3 levels), at least with a select few spells. Note that Crossblooding would limit your spell selection even more, though.
In the end, though, the most important thing you can do as a Rogue is work with your teammates. Of course, that means your teammates have to be willing to work with you. Your sneak attack damage can wreck the world, but that only happens if the spellcasters give you a little magical protection (Protection From Evil, Stoneskin) and some attack buffs (Heroism, Inspire Courage, Magic Weapon) to give you the opportunity to actually hit things. You'll have to maneuver with your flanking buddies (the party melees) to make your stuff work, too. Prepare yourself to have to fight solo, but use your party's positioning to your advantage every chance you get.
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Oh wait that's right, you consider ninjas to be rogues and make these comments assuming that every rogue player is a ninja.*I* don't. The guy who is the Creative Director for Paizo said so. The ninja is a type of rogue archetype.
What's interesting is that even after being proved totally wrong, you continue to bring this up. You'd think you would know when you had lost?
And yet you still fail to realize that when people are talking about rogues, they are not talking about ninjas.
Also you should read James' post again. He makes it VERY clear as to why an alternate class is an archetype in nature, but different enough that it deserved it's own table and section.
Failing to understand this is just disingenuous and leads to unhelpful comments like, "the rogue is a fine class. Your player isn't having problems. You just need to inform them of how useful they are and how much fun they are actually having. I mean rogues can turn invisible at will and can run across lava. How is that not useful?"
Umm, not only did I read Jame’s post, his post was responding to my question.
It depends- what are we talking about when “we are ‘talking about rogues’? It’s important to compare apple to apples and oranges to oranges. For example- what class is the best archer? point can be made for either ranger or fighter. The Monk base class is a incredibly bad archer. But the Zen archer is fantastic, considered by many to be better than base Fighter or Ranger. Of course then we need to bring in Fighter or Ranger archetypes too then, right? (Still the Zen archer does well, however)
The point has been made that rogue fails as trapfinding can be done as well by two other class archetypes. NOT CLASSES. The archeologist bard and Trapper ranger. But so? That’s comparing apples to oranges.
There are several very good rogue archetypes than in many ways are better than the base class- scout and of course ninja. If we are comparing how base classes are, we compare base classes. If we add in archetypes- then we add in archetypes for both sides of the debate, not just one. But of course the rogue-haters don;t want a level playing field, they don't want a fair comparo- they can only prove their point by saying "This apple isn't orange enough and it's skin is too thin & hard to peel, and there's no sections...".
In this case, of course, the Ninja archetype would not suit what the OP’s player seems to want.
The rogue is a fine class. Yes, often, just like with any other class, a rogue archetype will suit the role better than the base class would. When we're talking blaster Sorcs, certain bloodlines are WAY better than others- that doesn't mean the sorc sux at blasting just because a couple bloodlines do poorly at blasting.
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
Doesn't matter. The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
Why?
Urban Barbarian can make a damn good swashbuckler character. Especially if it takes Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance. Add the trait that grants Trap Finding and it even gets to disarm magic traps... Not that disarming magic traps has much to do with being a Swashbuckler. If that trait is out for some reason, a single dip in Trapper Ranger can do it without slowing down BAB progression.
Its also much easier to get skill points with a Barbarian than it is to compensate for a Rogue's awful saves and low accuracy.
In fact, I suggest the OP takes a look at some Urban Barbarain builds in this forum. They're not difficult to adapt into a more guile & cunning based character. It also eventually gets lots of in-combat mobility thanks to Pounce.
Foxy Slicey makes a a great duelist and decent party-face even though she has Cha 9.
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Doesn't matter. The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
Pathfinder does not support the charming rogue swashbuckler type. Unless something more clever than was seen in the playtest comes to light when the ACG is published it will continue to not do so.
Until that hoped for event either the GM needs to bring in a custom class or the player needs to learn to love the greatsword.
One handed or sword and buckler or TWF styles, apart from any issues with rogues, are a trap.
the ACG Swashbuckler is pretty good at the one handed fighting type, and you can argue it covers the charming rogue swashbuckler, which is one of the things I presented to the player.
I agree, sword+buckler never works well.
TWF however can work amazingly well.
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Doesn't matter. The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
Why?
Heck, be an Urban Barbarian. Boost your DEX in Controlled Rage and not only sneak while Raging, be BETTER at it.