I have been asked to DM Pathfinder again by the largest group of Elite Power-gaming Min/maxers in the known universe. You guys all know these guys.Every character shows up to the table so overpowered (but still legal)that they blow through every official Pathfinder adventure Path without breaking a sweat.Karzoug? One rounded,The Shattered Star adventure path?Blown through so fast they made the DM cry at the table.
They consider it a game within itself to create the DM's worst nightmare type characters and then beat every encounter so bad the DM runs crying for Mommy and the comfort of the OSR.
These guys eat level +3 encounters for breakfast and level +4 encounters for lunch.By Dinner time there is nothing left.
Now normally I just don't run Pathfinder.I have a lot more fun playing it.Who needs that kind of stress right?
Maybe it's the Taco's I ate last night talking or The Dungeon Bastard video I watched last night going to sleep,but suddenly I woke up today and thought,It's on!
So this is my goal.
I want to try and DM a game of Pathfinder just like they play it. I want to figure out every loop hole,every trick,every last nugget of awesome overpoweredness and stomp the stuffing out of them.
Now don't get the wrong idea. I don't want to just kill them. That isn't hard at all,I want to beat them to death with as legal a Dungeon as possible while stretching things as far as I can go.
The goal here is for everyone to have fun and be insanely challenging while putting the fear back into the dungeon crawl.
For this I need your help. If you guys know of tricks,guides,have advice or idea that might help I would love to hear them! I'm one guy against four of the most twisted minds mankind has ever rolled dice with so I need the help!
What level(s)? Give us a few more details please so we can help.
Otherwise, start with a deity as the enemy- and maybe not an evil one either but one who merely wants to challenge these Heroes of the World. This would give you a legitimate excuse for unrelated baddies to be in their way without leaving clues for the party to follow to find him/her.
Reverse the situation/plot so the enemies are hunting the party and they never know when/where they will be attacked. Etc.
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What are you looking for? I have 3-4 ridiculous builds that can be used, but alone they aint worth much. There is a guide on challenging encounters here though:
It's a good guide.
I also say generally use more rather than less monsters. Play them smart. Use strategy. Use the action economy against them. Use high-mobility creatures that can easily escape & reorganize.
Might be willing to help you a bit, I've been wanting to reproduce "tucker's kobolds", a group of "normal" kobolds who used smart strategy to basically stomp on even high-level adventurers. Basically the goal is to make them fear kobolds more than demons.
The difficulty with this is that there is no "strict RAW" for GMs, and the players might accuse you of "cheating" even though you arent.
Another reccomendation: Play warhammer fantasy roleplay second edition (it's a deadly game). Make them random roll EVERYTHING (stats, in order, then roll for class randomly). That forces them to play with less control, and forces them to PLAY smart rather than BUILD smart, since they have less control over the build.
Rock fall, everybody dies?
Anyway, easy peasy is having a party of NPC with elite array and same class levels/combo. Ambush them. Win. PC generally have like 45 DC but only +10 to saves, +50 to damage but only 100 HP, so they are not able to survive their attacks mirrored. Surprise round is all you need to kill them all. Remember to add scry&fry and a page worth of prebuff to the mix just to make the point that whatever they can do, you can do it better.
Here is a sure-fire setup. Battle oracle + pounching summoner + sorcer + wathever.
All chug an improved invisib potion. Then Sorc DD on the party. Surprise round ensue before rolling init. During the surprise round have the Sorcer use a scroll of disgiuntion on the party (just to get rid of buffs). Then punching Summoner charge the wizard and beat him to -200. Oracle of battle uses revelation for + 1 move action and full attacks someone close killing him (he is buffed with righteous might, divine power, divine favor, haste, heroism greater, greater magic weapon, ecc.). Then, proceed to mop up the floor with the survivors.
I don't have to worry about Burnout. I don't normally run Pathfinder,I just play.
I can't really give a level range as I have not decided what level range to set the adventure in.I'm thinking around 8th but don't have anything set yet.
I grabbed that guide and and it's the type of thing I'm looking for,thanks!
I don't want to teach them a lesson or change the way they play. I actually think Pathfinder promotes that type of game play and I'm fine with that. The game layers on player options after player options and new talents and feats that add to the pc's power. It's only natural that the pc's would try to master the system and create the best characters they can.
What is more of a issue is that the same thing isn't really happening on the other side of the screen.The monsters are not getting more powerful,encounter creation guidelines are the same.
I want to embrace that power gaming philosophy and DM with it!
I know this will not sound fun for a lot of DM's. I like all kinds of games though from every side of the board so I figured this style might actually be fun.
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Have you considered that maybe the players like the sort of game were they breeze through things without a challenge?
If you want to kill the character just walk up to the table and say rocks fall everybody dies. If you're the GM and you want to kill the characters, then you succeed. Don't do mental exercises, don't hide your goal. You're just obfuscating from yourself and trying to legitimze your actions.
You might be better off , I dunno, talking with your players and asking them to tone it down a little instead of trying to meet them head to head in combat so you can triumph over them and make them eat crow. You're the GM, you can do it at any time. It's not impressive.
*Also, protip. Limit the books and sources they have access to do not change your mind. If you limit them to say the Core Rule Book and Advanced Player's Guide you'll find they have a lot less options to break the world with.
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Guys,I think some of you are not getting the point of the thread.I'm not trying to kill the PC's.That is as easy and saying"You have a heart attack and are dead".
I'm not trying to teach them a lesson or change them or get back at them for anything.
I'm trying to DM for them in the same style they want to play.Not to do anything more than have fun! I actually think it might be fun to run a game for a bit in that style!
Kinda like 4E's Fourthcore Iron Lich type of thing.
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The "easiest" way is to just ramp up. Make the average encounter APL+5. Boss battles APL+6.
I get what you're trying to do, but I guess what people are saying is that it might not be what your players want. They may not WANT to struggle, they may just want to win effortlessly. So be careful, they may not want a deadly game.
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[rant]It upsets me that most of these replies are saying to make the players tone down their characters. These people obviously did not read the OP's original post, or at least not all of it. I'm talking to you Claxon. He obviously respects these players and is perfectly fine with them powergaming. As a matter of fact he WANTS them to. He wants to attempt to challenge even their most powerful characters to make the game more fun for everyone. He doesn't want to kill them, just make them fear death.[/rant]
Okay now for some actual tips:
I'd say one of the best, and most interesting, ways to do this would be to take an adventure path(obviously scale it up), then add in a group of nega-adventurers. Create your own group of awesome characters and create a challenging combat for both sides. And hey, if they end up squashing this as well, have the nega-party wizard teleport them away and heal them up. Then have them come back later in the campaign for another ambush!
[rant]It upsets me that most of these replies are saying to make the players tone down their characters. These people obviously did not read the OP's original post, or at least not all of it. I'm talking to you Claxon. He obviously respects these players and is perfectly fine with them powergaming. As a matter of fact he WANTS them to. He wants to attempt to challenge even their most powerful characters to make the game more fun for everyone. He doesn't want to kill them, just make them fear death.[/rant]
Okay now for some actual tips:
I'd say one of the best, and most interesting, ways to do this would be to take an adventure path(obviously scale it up), then add in a group of nega-adventurers. Create your own group of awesome characters and create a challenging combat for both sides. And hey, if they end up squashing this as well, have the nega-party wizard teleport them away and heal them up. Then have them come back later in the campaign for another ambush!
Personally, I have no problem with this guy's goal. I myself am owrking on 2 mini-campaigns specifically for powergamming (one a heist, the other a "Thermopilae/300" thing with a party of 4 against an orcish horde). But a number of powergamers I've known powergame for one reason: they dont WANT to be challenged. It's just a concern I'm putting out there.
The "easiest" way is to just ramp up. Make the average encounter APL+5. Boss battles APL+6.
I get what you're trying to do, but I guess what people are saying is that it might not be what your players want. They may not WANT to struggle, they may just want to win effortlessly. So be careful, they may not want a deadly game.
This is sage advice. I would check with the players to make sure they are up to the challenge. If they are, here is another idea. I run a group of optimizing players and I have found that in addition to higher level encounters, a good tactic was to use more NPCs as opponents. IMHO, an optimized party can be the most dangerous encounter. Below is an example evil party I suggested in another thread (edited to level 8 as you were thinking about starting at that level). I learned a lot about GMing (and improved my own character building) when I started building NPCs as encounters.
Anti-oradin
Orc Life Oracle 2/ Knight of the Sepulcher Anti-paladin 6
Touch of the Crypt allows him to use LoH on himself.
Lifelink to constantly feed HPs to his party.
Identify a Good character and Smite him.
Take the Extra Lay on Hands feat multiple times and Greater Mercy.
This is your meat shield, LoH every round will make him seem like he has unlimited HPs.Reach Cleric
City-raised Half-orc Evangelist Cleric 8
Inspire Courage as a move action.
Growth Subdomain plus the Half-orc favored class ability will let him swift Enlarge for most, if not all, of the combat.
Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, and Lunge (20 ft. threaten and 30 ft. attack range with Enlarge).
Don't let the PCs end turns within 5ft. of an enemy so that they will provoke constant AoOs (not to mention they won't be able to full attack).Synthesist
Goblin Synthesist Summoner 8
Quadruped plus Pounce for the win!
Take primary attack evolutions until his number of attacks is maxed out (4).
Extra Evolution multiple times plus Goblin favored class bonus equals tons of evolutions.
This guy won't need a complicated plan, just pounce brutalize everyone.A rogue type just because we have a warrior type, a divine caster, and an arcane caster
Hobgoblin Ninja 8
Vanishing Trick to swift action invisibility equals full attack sneaks attacks on anyone that can't see invisible creatures.
Two-weapon fighting, Improved two-Weapon fighting, and Extra Ki multiple times to keep the fun going.Tactics: The anti-oradin (AO) and the synthesist are going to have decent ACs, they will be your front liners. Have the AO use his LoH to keep himself up. Start with Detect Good and Smite. Have the synthesist cast Life Conduit early so he will seem to have nearly as many HPs as the AO. Focus him on anyone that can see invisible. I would have the reach cleric start with a swift action Enlarge, a move action Inspire Courage, and a standard action spell based on need. For example, if the PCs summon, have him throw up a Communal Protection from Good. If not, start with Blessing of Fervor. Also, have the reach cleric stand 10ft. behind the others so that the PCs will pay for approaching the front line. The Ninja should try o stay invisible as much as possible. He should full attack sneak attack anyone in his path, especially if they approach the Evangelist.
If your group is looking for a challenge, an optimized party using tactics against them I think would be a lot of fun.
Goldenfrog, the problem people have with their response is likely because what you want to do, optimize as the DM, isn't a thing that can be done. As the DM you hold all the cards. All you can do as DM is move the goal posts.
As DM you are the chef preparing the meal for your players. Currently your players are scarfing down their food. You want them to have some challenge and want to cook differently.
If you follow Williamoaks advice, it's akin to serving rocks in place of normal fare. +5, +6 encounters have much higher defenses and often a tremendous increase in defensive choices. In my own games this often leads to fights where some of the characters feel like they are ineffective (and not having fun). When it works, it can be an epic battle against a vastly superior force. Do you want your players to have to break their teeth a little (feel challenged when they normally smoke through battles)?
The other option you have, because you can move the goal posts is to create victory conditions besides "kill everything that moves". Think of these as more of "serve so much food they have trouble eating all of it"
In my own games I've done
1) goblin assaults in which I have goblins attack for a set number of rounds and the goal of the players is to survive and defend a building. Think of this as serving larger portions. The monsters aren't hard for the heroes to kill. The fighter can plow through piles of enemies and feel like a beast, but still fail to hold back the tide if the other characters aren't supporting him. Waves of enemies aren't kosher by encounter difficulty level math, so be careful not to go overboard and overwhelm the group.
2) Capture/Evasion where a Bandit didn't want to engage the heroes. He used his followers and terrain to avoid engagement and the situation revolved around that pursuit. The problem I've encountered in those types of scenarios are either making an objective that the party wasn't suited for, or just failed at. Be sure to have a back up plan in case your players go off the rails.
I talked to two of them this morning and they loved the idea. I put it to them like this.
"Guys,I decided last night I might be willing to run a Pathfinder game again but with the goal of really challenging you guys. Instead of asking you to tone it down and create characters more in line with the adventure paths I thought it might be better to let you go the other extreme. Create the most optimized character you can with double the normal gold to buy equipment and a 32 point buy for stats.
Now for this game I'm going to treat the monsters the same way. I will not be designing encounters by the normal -2 to +3 party level but swinging wildly outside of that(but nothing ridicules,no Ancient Worms at 3rd level or Tarrasque at 10th)each encounter will be designed to put some fear into you guys while still being beatable. You will have to play smart and roll lucky at times but I plan on building this thing so you guys will have plenty of chances to BE the HERO of the hour! Don't be surprised though if the monsters and npc's you face are built the same way and use the same type of tactics."
Both of them are ALL IN and that's great. We do have one problem area and that is one player who we feel might just want Godmode type gaming.She HATES to die and we talked about it and she might not want to play a game that evens(or tilts it in favor of the monsters)score.
We have not talked to her yet but if nothing else she can't play as often and we could just run this thing on days she can't play.
Great! They want the challenge, we can try to oblige. Later, when I have the time.
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I talked to two of them this morning and they loved the idea. I put it to them like this.
Both of them are ALL IN and that's great. We do have one problem area and that is one player who we feel might just want Godmode type gaming.She HATES to die and we talked about it and she might not want to play a game that evens(or tilts it in favor of the monsters)score.
We have not talked to her yet but if nothing else she can't play as often and we could just run this thing on days she can't play.
Talking to your players about expectation is the best and most important thing you can do. If your players are up for it and know what to expect then Allons-y!
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here's a few things I keep in my back pocket for when I want to make things more difficult, It would of course depend on their party makeup and play style, but I have found there are a few things you can use to make fights more challenging, without raising the CR, or bending the rules/ fudging some rolls.
1. Terrain: slippery ice, fighting up stairs, fighting up stairs built by giants so players have to make a climb check every step, rough terrain so it is harder to charge, put trees/rocks, and other things in the way so basically they will have to be very tactical about their fighting. All the OP characters in the world will do you little good if you don't know how to use them properly.
2. Weather: I don't use it a ton, because a bad roll on an important day can shaft your party, but weather effects listed here can change fights completely. Fog means 5 ft vision and everything gets concealment. 20 MPH wind, which isn't really all that bad, is a -2 to all ranged attacks, and tiny familiars risk some damage. At 30+ MPH, familiars can get blown away completely, which could be really bad for your witch or Wizard.
3. Perception distance penalty: remember there is A +1 per 10 ft. added to perception checks, trust me, often times it matters.
4. Lighting: Probably less effective than weather effects, but if your players have no dark or low light vision, this can be a nightmare. You can find the lighting rules here
5. Under water combat: No one is ready for underwater combat. Against enemies with a swim speed, parties will have a hard time of it. Especially if they don't know the underwater combat rules very well. They can be found here
6. Creatures: It sounds like you don't play pathfinder that often so this might be hard, but pick creatures that they probably have not fought yet. The newer Bestiary 3 and 4 books have a lot of creatures you can use to replace standard creatures, and players will be unfamiliar with it's abilities and tactics.
7. Remember bad guys are smart and can be proactive. If I were a bad guy, I would always start a fight having drank a potion of invisibility. If I where a powerful important bad guy, I would be scrying these people that are messing up my plans, seeing what they can do, and planning for it. If they like ranged combat, and appear to be weak willed. Alarm spell tells me they are near, and then mind fog on one end of the room, stand behind a wind wall on the other. Their ranged attacks to nothing, so they move into melee, through the mind fog, -10 to their already bad will saves, then sleep, hold person, dominate person, ect. You get the point, bad guys can plan to attack party weaknesses, and neutralize their strengths.
Sorry for the longish post. If while you are running them you run into some problems, or need ideas on how to challenge them, I'm sure you could post here, and get plenty of ideas.
Oh, I SOOOO want to try to recreate tuckers Kobolds. I feel like I will have succeeded as a GM when I can make my players fear a group of CR 1/3 monsters more than a Demon.
I think in general it's going to be better to run encounters with the same level limits in monsters but with tons more monsters. Instead of one bad arse monster party level +6, it might be one bad arse monster party level +3 and spend the rest of the encounter points on tons of lower level badguys placed in strategic positions.
With the larger exp total for the encounter I can place a pit trap in front of the kobold archers,I can add a kobold rogue who is stealthed behind cover near the entrance who can sneak attack the casters mid fight.
Keep one of the kobolds back from the fight so if all goes badly he triggers a boulder trap that covers the boss's retreat.
This kind of thing seems fun and challenging. I'm not talking about simply spending APL+6 on one boss that the party can't beat,though to be honest I'm not convinced that the party couldn't beat that encounter either IF they still had most of their resources.
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Step one, make sure they send you a complete workup of their characters. including future plans. If they are what you say they are, they know every feat and skill and option they will take. Find out. That information is the best asset for making encounters that challenge them. Tailor enemies to their strengths and weaknesses. That alone will go a long way towards doing what you want to do.
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In addition to all the good advice above, have intelligent enemies choose when and where to attack the PCs. One of the very best ways to win a fight is to be the attacker, particularly in Pathfinder. If you let the characters set the speed and frequency of encounters, then your monsters will lose a lot easier.
An optimised prepared caster will be much less effective if he/she is attacked by something unexpected - and even a Kobold with an illusion on it of eg a boss kobold will gain the actual boss a free round of actions as the party focuses on the wrong threat.
I suspect they are using all books, modules et al. Can't you just limit them to Core & APG?
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In addition to what was said here, which is all good advice, find out whether or not they role play at all or are solely into roll play. If it's the latter case then if you want to give them a TRUE challenge place them into a a few social battles and instances of courtly intrigue. Sure, their 7 cha magi with the social skills of a block of wood may do great in combat, but when they're forced to roll skills like diplomacy to deal with nobles or knowledge (nobility) to know information such as how to address the king chances are they'll fail miserably. Thus, mixing some combat like the kind discussed here with some courtly intrigue/politics and situations that CAN'T be solved by killing and fighting will quickly prove to them that if they optimize solely to be the strongest combatants they are utterly unprepared for the other aspects of the game.
However, be warned that not all optimizers are roll players who OP solely for combat. So if you group is not like that and has both the 7 cha magus with no people skills but also say, a bard, rogue or heck, inquisitor(with the proper inquisitions) who has been OPed to have the most ridiculous social skill checks ever then they'll plow through normal social encounters just like they would combat ones as optimizing doesn't necessarily mean just optimizing for combat. Thats the most common, but I know that I myself once, as a thought experiment, created a Kitsune bard build that was the most optimized master of disguise ever, designed to be able to impersonate a king successfully and thus take over a kingdom by pretending to be it's monarch. It was made to be able to get the disguise past anybody, even a character optimized to see through disguises and coax truth out from others. Was the character optimized for COMBAT? No...in combat he was basically just a worse sorcerer. But for what he was optimized for, he was darn good at.
Question. Do these guys WANT you to ramp up the challenge? I ask because I know some optimizers optimize because they like the idea of playing the game on easymode and have fun being 'powerful characters who crush their enemies.'
Granted, if you don't enjoy DMing easy mode that wouldn't be good either.
The OP has been talking with the players, and apparently they're willing.
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Are you Gming a home game or a PFS game?
If you are GMing a home game then you have much more leeway.
For example, as a GM you set the parameters of what is allowed and what isnt allowed.
You can decide that you are for example running a 15 point build game with slow advancment......Heck you can decide a 10 point build.
You can decide that you are running an "under dark" campaign and you want all of the players to be Dwarves, and to allow only core rule book options only.
As a GM you can control the options available to the players, and thus, help nipping some of the min maxing power gaming in the bud.
If you are GMing a PFS game you have much fewer options.
All I am saying is that you have options. You have been asked to GM. If the players don't like
your parameters, remember They have asked you to GM for them. You can sell the lower
ability point spread as "hard mode".
Anyways I hope this helps. Good luck.
In addition to what was said here, which is all good advice, find out whether or not they role play at all or are solely into roll play. If it's the latter case then if you want to give them a TRUE challenge place them into a a few social battles and instances of courtly intrigue. Sure, their 7 cha magi with the social skills of a block of wood may do great in combat, but when they're forced to roll skills like diplomacy to deal with nobles or knowledge (nobility) to know information such as how to address the king chances are they'll fail miserably. Thus, mixing some combat like the kind discussed here with some courtly intrigue/politics and situations that CAN'T be solved by killing and fighting will quickly prove to them that if they optimize solely to be the strongest combatants they are utterly unprepared for the other aspects of the game.
However, be warned that not all optimizers are roll players who OP solely for combat. So if you group is not like that and has both the 7 cha magus with no people skills but also say, a bard, rogue or heck, inquisitor(with the proper inquisitions) who has been OPed to have the most ridiculous social skill checks ever then they'll plow through normal social encounters just like they would combat ones as optimizing doesn't necessarily mean just optimizing for combat. Thats the most common, but I know that I myself once, as a thought experiment, created a Kitsune bard build that was the most optimized master of disguise ever, designed to be able to impersonate a king successfully and thus take over a kingdom by pretending to be it's monarch. It was made to be able to get the disguise past anybody, even a character optimized to see through disguises and coax truth out from others. Was the character optimized for COMBAT? No...in combat he was basically just a worse sorcerer. But for what he was optimized for, he was darn good at.
I'd take it even farther than this. Not just require good social skills to succeed, but handle animal, ride, swim, climb, linguistics - the whole array of skills, especially those that are seldom used or trained.
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I grabbed that guide and and it's the type of thing I'm looking for,thanks!
He also now has a blog where he talks about that stuff in even more detail
I just got off the phone with the last player and she is in.She did ask if it's ok if she NOT play her main character but otherwise was game! I told them to all make new characters anyway as there old characters were not 32 point buy ect.. Also I am a player in the main Pathfinder game and really only DMing because our standard(for pathfinder) DM asked me to due to burnout(he is now one of the players in my game).
I'm rather excited by all this. Last time I DMed the game I felt to constrained by the exp total rules for building encounters.
I have always known you can go outside those rules but....for some reason I felt less free to do so than in other games.
Now I'm drooling at the thought of running the game again instead of playing.
Also in case it wasn't clear this is a home game.Not any sort of Society game or anything like that.
Reading the Gaming Everyman blog now! Thanks again!
Oh and Tuckers Kobolds would rock!
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I would highly recommend Slumbering Tsar, by FGG. It takes a break from some of the conventions more commonly used in newer games and brings back some old school lethiality (without breaking the system or changing the rules).
*Also, protip. Limit the books and sources they have access to do not change your mind. If you limit them to say the Core Rule Book and Advanced Player's Guide you'll find they have a lot less options to break the world with.
I've found that the more sources(in the PRD) you offer the weaker the characters. Just ban classes outside of the CRB and watch players pick "broken" options that end up just being worse than what a CRB character would have.
There are notable exceptions, but pursuing those without crippling your character can be difficult.
Running NPCs intelligently helps to expose these weaknesses.
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Max the HP of the monsters to start. That will make combats last a little longer.
Change a monster's feats. Most monsters have some very sub-optimal feat choices.
Change a monster's spells known or spells prepared. Monsters often also have very sub-optimal spell choices.
Use dragons :)
OR
Find a copy of The Tomb of Horrors and adapt it to Pathfinder. It doesn't get much deadlier than that.
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Hobgoblin Ninja 8
Vanishing Trick to swift action invisibility equals full attack sneaks attacks on anyone that can't see invisible creatures.
This does not work with Vanishing Trick. You would need Invisible Blade. Only the first attack would grant you the sneak attack.
"Guys,I decided last night I might be willing to run a Pathfinder game again but with the goal of really challenging you guys. Instead of asking you to tone it down and create characters more in line with the adventure paths I thought it might be better to let you go the other extreme. Create the most optimized character you can with double the normal gold to buy equipment and a 32 point buy for stats.
Why do this? THis only makes your job x10 harder. Give them average wealth and 15 point buy. Then you only have to make the bad guys use good tactics and do minimal adjustments. Otherwise this will be alot of book keeping for you.
Do you have hero labs that helps rewrite monsters to make them extra deadly
Don't. Just don't.
This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. You should NEVER GM a game with a GM vs Players mentality. That's not what the game is about.
Besides, you're the GM. You want to crush them? Meteor strikes the planet, blowing it to bits. Ancient red dragon vs level 1 PCs. You have infinite resources at your disposal. You don't need loopholes.
Zhayne did you read his posts? Doesn't appear you did.
Don't. Just don't.
This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. You should NEVER GM a game with a GM vs Players mentality. That's not what the game is about.
Besides, you're the GM. You want to crush them? Meteor strikes the planet, blowing it to bits. Ancient red dragon vs level 1 PCs. You have infinite resources at your disposal. You don't need loopholes.
He doesnt want to crush them, he wants to challenge them. He essensially wants to give them the chance to be Min/maxers and still give them deadly encounters that they can shine in.
Just a thought, not sure if this was mentioned, but if you're the DM, just require that people roll for their Ability points at the start of the game, instead of the purchase system. Or only give them 10 points or 15 points instead of 20 at the start of the game to add to their ability scores.
I'm personally a fan of rolling for ability scores cause it encourages people to Role Play and it most of the time doesn't lead to crazy overpowered characters.
As a DM, and I would argue players too, will have more fun playing a character that has strengths AND weaknesses then an overpowered steam roll everything kind of character.
PCs with weaknesses allow other PCs a chance to shine when one PC isn't able to do something that great. It makes playing as a party better, team playing.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Edit: I see other people mentioned this before me :)
He who knows himself and knows his enemy will be victorious. Sun Tzu
Know the characters, do not glance, make notes. Known the players and their likely reaction to a situation. Account for the unacountable and prepare for it. You're looking to challenge not kill. Bad saves and critical hits kill, account for them.
"All war is based on deception," Sun Tzu. Two thousand years old book that military academies still teach.
Have a goblin mounted on a large lizard with a wand of empowered maximized burning hands, and a wand of silent image. A few extra goblins and their lizard are disguised as a large a pyro-hydra. The extra goblins attack in tandum with each other to create the illusion of a multible bite attacks. The mounted goblin, with the burning hangs wand, mimics a flame breath weapon. Even with levels on the goblins, this is not going to challenge an experienced group. By round two they should start questioning the "dragon". Illusions do not have to fool forever just long enough to offer an advantage.
"Lie, mislead, and deny, you're DMing." Mr. Fishy
As other people mentioned, PC class levels are the way to go here. Design enemy parties that synergize with each other; be what the PC team could be if they worked together with 100% efficiency.
You got the Witch and his Dual Cursed Oracle lieutenant with Misfortune. You have the death worshiping assassin triplets who all happen to be Inquisitors with the Repose Domain (touch, touch, now you're sleeping, and I have a scythe :D). How about that mostly all Anti-Paladin hit squad led by that intense buffer bard?
I looked up Slumbering Tsar and it looks pretty dang cool. I already have RA for Pathfinder(and Swords and Wizardry) but gave it to the other DM so he could run it.
Slumbering Tsar seems to have a rep for being brutal to play but im not sure that is deserved when talking about optimized pathfinder PC's.
Still it isn't THAT much to buy it and see I guess.
I'm actually planning on running a Slumbering Tsar game pretty soon. I haven't read the whole adventure, but from what I've seen from the first part and about half of part 2, most of the real danger from it seems to come from enemies being more than willing to crowd control the PCs with high end status effects and abilities that cause ability drain.
Yeah, overall it does seem like it would be a lot less deadly to a group of minmaxers but there are plenty of opportunities throughout where just adding one enemy with class levels would make the PCs lives hell...