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What are the pros to each?
The cons?
Is one class stronger(overall, including but not limited to, DPR, Defenses (saves/AC/HP(healing/DR count here as well)), Out of combat usefulness, solo capability, and party contribution.
Which would you rather play? Why? (this one is purely opinion based, but opinions are -usually- based on facts/experience)
Which would you rather have on your team as your martial character?
Well, I just want to state first Barbarians aren't really about chaos. And paladins are really about order, at least not Order above Good. For more lawful aspects you're really looking at HellKnights, but I disgress.
The Paladin's biggest glaring weakness is that it really only excels against evil. Without Smite being active the Paladin's damage will be below a fighters or barbarians. With Smite active the Paladin has the potential to out-damage both, but I've seen Barbarians that would give a Paladin a run for his money even with his smite active.
Paladin's get Divine Grace that allow them to add Cha to saves giving them good all around saves. Barbarians however get superstition, and human barbarians can add their favored class bonus to it. With a furious courageous weapon you're saves will be even higher than the paladins in the long run.
Barbarians get a bigger hit die and damage reduction. Paladin's get Lay on Hands, and with the Tiefling favored class bonus and the Fey Foundling feat it can mean a Paladin has a much larger effective health pool that he can draw on by using only a swift action.
Barbarians can get Greater Beast Totem, which allows for charge, pounce, full attack. Giving on average a higher DPR than anything without pounce. With Come and Get Me and Combat Reflexes you can really make an enemy regret attacking you. You will however burn through hp and need to be healed after every combat (preferably through wands).
The Paladin can provide some decent bonuses to his group of various types.
Personally I have a strong preference for the Barbarian unless the campaign is strongly focused on fighting evil. Wrath of the Righteous would be an awesome campaign to play a paladin in. Campaigns were evil may be incidental and you'll fight a lot of neutral creatures or people and you will have a terribe time playing a paladin. Not to mention the RP restrictions that often come along with playing a paladin. When not handled well by a GM trying to a Paladin that is anything other than the Holiest of Holy Nice Guys can be impossible and you can expect your fall to swift and meteoric.
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Paladins are generally better at surviving damage. They can wear heavy armor and shields, have excellent save bonuses, and can heal themselves. Paladins are also a bit more group oriented, with their auras and channeling and healing.
Barbarians are generally better at dealing damage. Their strength can go off the charts while raging, their speed is good, and rage powers can pump things up.
You can have a great time playing either. So decide the playstyle you want. Everything will flow from that.
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All of the above is true in general, but there are definite exceptions, a Barbarian in Plate Mail with Beast Totem probably has more AC than the Paladin unless he's smiting (and maybe even then), and is probably at least as durable if an Invulnerable Rager, and on the other hand, a Sacred Servant of Ragathiel can get Rage at 11th level...
Really depends on how you build your character.
Out of combat, the Paladin has detect evil, and can easily be the face of the party (for everything but Bluff anyway), while the Barbarian has survival and movement skills as well as Perception.
If I want a melee beast that can literally break the planes of existance, I go barbarian. If I want a powerful archer who's capable in melee and can recover from about everything, I go paladin.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned, Spell Sunder. It is probably my favorite reason to play a barbarian.
Someone cast darkness? I cleave the magic in twain and vanquish from the world. Mirror Image, I ignore the miss chance and rip the magic away that surrounds my enemy and confused my allies.
Spell Sunder is fracking awesome.
Barbarians are usually mechanically, easier to play.
I find Paladins mechanically easier to play. No tracking rage rounds and fatigue rounds. You get what you get with Paladins but choice of rage power and how they all work or don't work together is tougher.
A paladin is harder to role play than barbarian.
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Barbarians can get Greater Beast Totem, which allows for charge, pounce, full attack. Giving on average a higher DPR than anything without pounce. With Come and Get Me and Combat Reflexes you can really make an enemy regret attacking you. You will however burn through hp and need to be healed after every combat (preferably through wands).
while i agree with most of the points you made, a barbarian can actually out heal a paladin using lesser celestial totem + Fire God's Blessing. you cant gain pounce, but with CAGM + step up and strike + stand still, you can heal you level in hp every swing. that can make a paladin jealous.
they even have an item you can add to your chest to deal fire damage when a creature makes a melee attack against you, which nets even more healing.
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while i agree with most of the points you made, a barbarian can actually out heal a paladin using lesser celestial totem + Fire God's Blessing. you cant gain pounce, but with CAGM + step up and strike + stand still, you can heal you level in hp every swing. that can make a paladin jealous.
they even have an item you can add to your chest to deal fire damage when a creature makes a melee attack against you, which nets even more healing.
This is a good combination...but not as good as you imply. The healing only happens once per round, says so right in the Fire God's Blessing Feat.
Barbarians can get Greater Beast Totem, which allows for charge, pounce, full attack. Giving on average a higher DPR than anything without pounce. With Come and Get Me and Combat Reflexes you can really make an enemy regret attacking you. You will however burn through hp and need to be healed after every combat (preferably through wands).
while i agree with most of the points you made, a barbarian can actually out heal a paladin using lesser celestial totem + Fire God's Blessing. you cant gain pounce, but with CAGM + step up and strike + stand still, you can heal you level in hp every swing. that can make a paladin jealous.
they even have an item you can add to your chest to deal fire damage when a creature makes a melee attack against you, which nets even more healing.
It's also requires you to worship an obscure Orc deity called the Fire God that d20pfsrd can't reference and a GM shouldn't allow to anyone other than an orc (or someone growing up in an Orc community) to worship. Theres also the issue that GM's may not allow the resource Orcs of Golarion. And despite having the potential to outheal because it can happen on everyround of combat, in practice I think you would find a high level paladin will outheal and heal for more when it actually matters and is needed. And, as noted, it only works once per round.
And a Barbarian cannot select from more than one group of totem powers. So taking that Celestial Totem is locking you out of Pounce.
Barbarians are the ultimate Gods of Melee fighting come level 12+, Paladins shine really early while the barbarian just keeps on scaling.
Once you reach the higher levels superstition gets a lot stronger then charisma on saves (except for ridiculous charisma builds that lack in other regions). The Paladins AC will usually be better then the Barbarians, but if built for AC the Barbarian can keep up (usually you wont do this because why have AC when you can smash faces?). Come and get Me + Dazing Assault is a really good defensive option. The Barbarian lacks the Paladins immunities, but again, superstition makes it hard to land any status effekts in the first place. The Barbarian even has the option of rerolling failed saves for when 95% chance to save are not enough. Rage works against everything that doesnt exhaust you before you can start your rage, not just against evil creatures. Your movementspeed will be higher then the paladins and pounce gives you unmatched mobility in the melee department. And to top it all off, you even get more skill ranks. And: Spell Sunder is just too good
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Barbarians are the ultimate Gods of Melee fighting come level 12+, Paladins shine really early while the barbarian just keeps on scaling.
I disagree here, Paladins get Spells and Aura of Justice at higher levels, both of which are excellent. They can also grab Charisma Feats, like the eldritch Heritage Feat line, which is potentially very good.
Once you reach the higher levels superstition gets a lot stronger then charisma on saves (except for ridiculous charisma builds that lack in other regions).
Uh...default Superstition provides only +7 at 20th. Most Paladins will have better Charisma than that by that point, even lacking ridiculous focus on it. Or at least as good. Courageous does make that better, I admit, but even then, Paladin Will saves will be better (since Paladins get +6 of those on Barbarians). If going with the Human Favored Class you may have a point...but that's not universal by any means. The Paladin immunities certainly help, too.
The Paladins AC will usually be better then the Barbarians, but if built for AC the Barbarian can keep up (usually you wont do this because why have AC when you can smash faces?). Come and get Me + Dazing Assault is a really good defensive option. The Barbarian lacks the Paladins immunities, but again, superstition makes it hard to land any status effekts in the first place. The Barbarian even has the option of rerolling failed saves for when 95% chance to save are not enough. Rage works against everything that doesnt exhaust you before you can start your rage, not just against evil creatures.
This is all true, but Superstition Barbarians have some distinct healing issues, while Paladins are probably the best self-healers in the game...so there's that. And Paladins' smite is vastly better than Rage (not counting Rage Powers) on things it does effect. At least at higher levels.
Your movementspeed will be higher then the paladins and pounce gives you unmatched mobility in the melee department. And to top it all off, you even get more skill ranks. And: Spell Sunder is just too good
This is all certainly true. Paladins can do party-buffing and healing, though, which Barbarians generally cannot.
Now, I'm not arguing Paladins are better, just that you're overstating the Barbarian's comparative advantages.
@deadmanwalking
okay, my post may have been a bit bias'd towards very specific builds ;)
you can ramp up superstition to up to +16 as a human, with a cloak of resistance and 8 wisdom your weakest save will still look at 95% success rate with +26 against average primary ability dcs of CR 20 monsters that sit at 27
i guess we're at a draw in the save department, if you try to supercharge your saves with either class (the paladin can stack a morale bonus like heroism on his charisma bonus while superstition already is a moral bonus) you'll sit at 95% success rate unless your GM actively trys to affect you ^^
true, smite beats rage without rage powers where it works. assuming 26 charisma (start with 16, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent) +8 hit and +20 damage in the endgame vs the barbarians +4/+6 now lets get some rage powers and weapon enchantment. barbarians get furious and curageos weapons, ill assume the paladin has 2 additional +1d6 enchantments instead, so paladin total: +8/+27 (average) vs the barbarians +13/+9
an additional 25% chance to hit makes the barbarian a lot more reliable. 18 Damage is even in the lategame much, but i bet 25% chance to hit equal at least 15 average damage, 60 damage per hit is not hard to reach for barbarians.
in the end the major difference between smite evil and rage in the lategame comes down to smite beeing limited targets per day and rage being limited time per day (both are pretty hard to deplete in any case except if the paladin starts to smite summoned creatures or the barbarian uses raging brutality every round (in wich case noone can beat him in damage for this rounds))
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Don't forget the killing versatility of the Paladin's Sword Bond.
Being able to make your weapon Brilliant on demand against armor wearing foes, at lower levels get a +2 to +4 Boost to the enhancement bonus, and the ability to assign several different and useful magical abilities to a weapon (i.e. flaming against trolls to stop the regen), is a remarkably useful and versatile ability.
And Paladins are indisputably better for the party, with lay on hands removing conditions and healing others, various spellcasting, and the ability to grant EVERYONE in the party smiting.
For pure self-contained awesomeness, however, the Barbarian does tend to rule the solo roost. For group play, I'd nod at the Paladin...if there won't be alignment issues.
==Aelryinth
The Champion of Irori is more anti-chaos than anti-evil, gaining Smite Chaos in addition to Smite Evil. I do find it very odd that neutral deities have Paladins, or that they would care if a paladin in their service became neutral.
I bet that's because paladins don't explicitly get their powers from their gods, with the exception of their 20th level ability. They mostly worship gods, and are often in their service, but they don't seem to be inherently powered by them. The paladin class mentions deities once and gods once. Meanwhile, the cleric entry mentions deities 20 times and gods four times. At least it seems that way from the core book - don't know much about paladins' role in Golarion.
And Paladins are indisputably better for the party, with lay on hands removing conditions and healing others, various spellcasting, and the ability to grant EVERYONE in the party smiting.
It should be said that with spell sunder, barbarians seem almost as good at condition removal as paladins. At 10th level a paladin might be able to fix say fatigue, daze and nausea with her mercies, and, given a day to reprepare the spells, some ability damage, paralysis, blindness/deafness and curses. That's great. But the barbarian isn't worthless at it either; while it doesn't have a list of conditions, it can spell sunder a lot of effects that cause these conditions, including dominate person, hold person, blindness/deafness, confusion, magic jar, ray of exhaustion etc. It also has a lot more uses per day.
I'm not saying barbarians out-do paladins in condition removal, not at all, just that it's not a huge gap between them in that area.
Inflicting a condition that has to be removed is not the same as chopping a magical effect apart. Once you're fatigued by a Ray of Enervation, or coming out of a rage, you're fatigued, and all the cleaving in the world isn't going to help you.
Spell Sundering also doesn't help when you're going to be at -20 HP if you drop out of rage and would like some healing to stay in the game!
===Aelryinth
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And Paladins are indisputably better for the party, with lay on hands removing conditions and healing others, various spellcasting, and the ability to grant EVERYONE in the party smiting.It should be said that with spell sunder, barbarians seem almost as good at condition removal as paladins. At 10th level a paladin might be able to fix say fatigue, daze and nausea with her mercies, and, given a day to reprepare the spells, some ability damage, paralysis, blindness/deafness and curses. That's great. But the barbarian isn't worthless at it either; while it doesn't have a list of conditions, it can spell sunder a lot of effects that cause these conditions, including dominate person, hold person, blindness/deafness, confusion, magic jar, ray of exhaustion etc. It also has a lot more uses per day.
I'm not saying barbarians out-do paladins in condition removal, not at all, just that it's not a huge gap between them in that area.
but you must devote actual resources (rape powers) into this. While not much, its something, a paladin gets his stuff for free :p
Inflicting a condition that has to be removed is not the same as chopping a magical effect apart.
Agreed, of course, but many (most?) spells that inflict conditions are active spells that can be dispelled, rather than instantaneous effects. There are a bunch of non-magic condition inflicters too, but they're not as common in most games I've seen (possibly barring poison, that's pretty common).
Once you're fatigued by a Ray of Enervation, or coming out of a rage, you're fatigued, and all the cleaving in the world isn't going to help you.
Not sure which spell you mean, but if you're refering to the ray of exhaustion, that's incorrect. The effect ends when the spell ends (when the barb whacks it).
Spell Sundering also doesn't help when you're going to be at -20 HP if you drop out of rage and would like some healing to stay in the game!
Fully agreed - paladins are great at healing hit points. But it's fairly rare that hit points need to be healed in battle, and out of battle there's happysticks (which of course paladins are better at using, but it really only needs one person in a party who can use them at all and the ability to use happysticks is very common).
but you must devote actual resources (rage powers) into this. While not much, its something, a paladin gets his stuff for free :p
FIFY. I hope and assume the typo was an accident.
The paladins get to select mercies from a list, the barbarian gets to select rage powers from a list. One mercy removes exhaustion, one rage power dispels ray of exhaustion. Each mercy is more limited in what condition it can solve, but can solve all instances of that condition. The rage power is more all over the place and can solve a lot of conditions, but only under certain circumstances (they have to be inflicted by an ongoing spell).
Again, not saying they're equally good at it, but it isn't some huge chasm between them; in terms of condition removal, I'd rate the classes something like cleric>druid=paladin>barbarian=oracle>bard=sorcerer=wizard.
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(rape powers)
EDIT!
I like to see paladins as getting there powers from any god they catch the eye of. normal paladins? probably in the graces of Iomeade or Sarenae. he falls and kills people that are breaking the law willy nilly? you are now an anti-paladin who gets his powers from Asmodeus.
I kind of see it the reverse way. In my view, paladins get powers through being so frakkin' righteous, much like how druids get powers through being so frakkin' "one with nature" - however, most paladins (and druids) feel serving the right gods is a great way to spread their beliefs and to get allies.
Except its almost impossible for a paladin to ever reach high level(11-20) before falling. Barbarians losing their s#%/ meanwhile is unheard of.
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Except its almost impossible for a paladin to ever reach high level(11-20) before falling. Barbarians losing their s#%/ meanwhile is unheard of.
OH REGINALD!, I DISAGREE! *drives off*.
anyway. I have gotten to level 15 without falling :3. OFC my actions brought much discomfort to the party, but I'll be damned before I fall... wait....
You do realize that you have to beat your CMD+5 by 10 or more to dispell a spell on yourself with the Spell Sunder rage power
You do realize that you have to beat your CMD+5 by 10 or more to dispell a spell on yourself with the Spell Sunder rage power
magic effects tend to not stick on superstition barbarian. if they stick and dont make the barbarian unable to sunder himself the barbarian has several options to increase his success rate
1. reckless abandon increases his sunder attempt by 1-6 and decreases his cmd by 1-6, making it a net 10-60% increased success rate
2. strength surge can be used to increase your cmb on a single check by your barbarian level for a total 5-100% increased success rate
3. you can full attack sunder up to 5 times per turn, not counting any natural attacks the barbarian might have
4. improved sunder increases your success rate by 10%
the fact that barbarians are able to reach the highest attack bonus in the game while usually having a s+@!ty defense makes spell sundering themselves really easy
unfortunately im living in germany and its getting kinda late ;) if you are stil drunk on sunday, send me a pm and its on!
i hope you realize that this fight would be kinda unfair since my barbarian won't be evil xD
Yeah me Barb's CMB is 24 and her CMD is 42, so only one chance every other round to sunder herself if she had spell sunder and strength surge.
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its come down to this... let us make... aBATTLE!.
build a level 15 paladin
a level 15 barbarian.
DUKE IT OUT WHEEEWWWW
(pardon me, I am a tad drunk atm)
Comparing the Barbarian to the Paladin in straightforward combat isn't really productive. The Paladin is a group player that can steamroll evil creatures. Meanwhile, the Barbarian can beat the crap out of everyone, but aren't great for supporting the party.
What this will boil down to is can the paladin out heal the huge amount of damage the barbarian will deal. Assuming the barbarian isn't evil I think the deck is stacked against the paladin in one vs one combat.
It also depends on what books are available. If the paladin isn't allowed to take fey foundling or doesn't use the tiefling favored class bonus then his healing capability just wont match up against the amount of damage the barbarian can dish out each turn.
*I mention fey foundling as it is a very popular feat (for very obvious reasons) but isn't in the core books.
The only game changer will be come and get me. No paladin can keep up with that level of Attacks of Opportunity.
Otherwise, making the weapon brilliant will mean every single one of the paladin's attacks is probably going to hit. Not missing ANY iteratives is extremely strong.
If the barb is Chaotic and evil, this gets even worse.
And the paladin can Smite with ranged attacks. An Archerdin Smiting a barbarian at range can kill him before he even gets close.
==Aelryinth
Yeah me Barb's CMB is 24 and her CMD is 42, so only one chance every other round to sunder herself if she had spell sunder and strength surge.
Well, that's an unusually high CMD, especially while raging. What level are you?
Also, by not avoiding the blow at all you'd count as helpless against the attack, treating your dexterity as 0 (so a -5 dexterity modifier) and gaining a +4 bonus on any attacks. That, combined with strength surge, should make sure you can dispel more often than not.
An Archerdin Smiting a barbarian at range can kill him before he even gets close.
Maybe if the barbarian is chaotic evil. But it's a big maybe and depends heavily on level. Getting up a good speed is quite easy, and charge barbarians can deal an awful lot of damage, even after the nerfs. You know, BATTY BAT etc.
AM NOT SEE "AM BARBARIAN" ANYWHERE, BUT AM TRY TO HELP LIKE "AM BARBARIAN"; EVEN THOUGH AM OTHER BARBARIAN, AM STILL BARBARIAN.
AM THINK 'PALLYDINS' TOO MUCH CASTY. AM GOOD AT SMASH AND AM HARDER TO SMASH THAN BARBARIAN, BUT AM THINK BARBARIAN BETTER WHEN UNABLE TO USE CASTY, OR FIGHT BADDIES. "AM BARBARIAN" SAY IF SMASHING CASTY, BARBARIAN AM POUND CASTIES HARDER. 'PALLYDINS' AM SAME, BUT SMASH BADDIES AND NOT CASTIES.
'PALLYDINS' AM HAVE 'SMITE' AND 'LAY ON HANDS,' BUT BARBARIAN AM HAVE 'RAGE POWERS' AND MUCH RAGE. AM ALSO SMASH CASTY'S SPELLS, BECAUSE AM BARBARIAN. 'PALLYDINS' AM HEAL, BUT USE CASTIES. SO AM SMASH MORE THAN NOT-CASTY.
AM WANT TO SEE "AM PALLYDIN," SINCE 'PALLYDINS' AM CASTIES, AND CASTIES AM SMASH. BUT "AM PALLYDIN" HIDING, SO AM SAY BARBARIAN SMASH 'PALLYDINS'.
